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randya
 
Watching the Detectives
The NYPD wants to take your picture—but beware of turning your lens on the cops
by Sarah Ferguson
April 10th, 2006 5:30 PM

http://images.villagevoice.com/issues/0615/ferguson1.jpg
Talk to the hand: An undercover detective lunges for Jan Lee's camera.

See also:
Feel a Chill? http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0614,murphy,72733,5.html
NYPD on filming protests: No harm, no foul
by Jarrett Murphy

Since 2003, the NYPD has been filming protesters at political demonstrations, regardless of whether anything illegal's going on. City lawyers were in court last month defending the practice, arguing that what happens in public view is fair game.

But police evidently aren't so keen on surveillance when the cameras are turned on them—particularly when those cameras show them abusing free-street-parking privileges.

On March 27, two volunteers from the advocacy group Transportation Alternatives were detained for taking pictures of police officers' private cars, which were parked on the sidewalk outside the Fifth Precinct in Chinatown. The volunteers say they were held and questioned at the precinct for about 20 minutes and instructed to erase the pictures.

"It was intimidating. I was afraid they were going to arrest me," says Brian Hoberman, 37, who works as a researcher for the city's Rent Guidelines Board.

Hoberman and a college student had been dispatched by Transportation Alternatives to document the scourge of sidewalk parking around City Hall and Chinatown. "We were told to photograph all the cars on the sidewalk with their license plates, and if they had any parking permits in the windows," Hoberman explains.

They started outside the Fifth Precinct on Elizabeth Street between Canal and Bayard streets, a narrow block where it's customary to find police and others parking with two wheels on the curb. Hoberman says he snapped a shot of an SUV straddling the sidewalk, and was quickly confronted by its owner, a cop in plain clothes.

"He said, 'Do you know this is my car? What are you doing?' " Hoberman recalls. "I told him we weren't targeting police or any particular people's cars, and that it was just a general survey, but he kept haranguing me, so I walked away." Hoberman says he resumed taking pictures, then turned back when he noticed his fellow volunteer being held up by a different officer.

They were asked to come inside the precinct, Hoberman says, where they were grilled by at least three officers. "They asked if we had anything to do with Critical Mass—twice," he says. "They took our driver's licenses and asked us if we had any outstanding warrants."

Hoberman says the officers listed several reasons they could not photograph cops' personal vehicles—including concerns that if the license plate numbers were published online, gang members could track police to their homes. "One officer asked if we were familiar with the gang situation in Chinatown," Hoberman recalls. "He said his tires had been slashed outside the precinct. He said, 'This is not the West Village.' And he mentioned the Patriot Act.

"Then he asked me to delete the photographs on my camera—just the ones that showed private police vehicles. The ones of marked police cars and a taxicab didn't bother him." Worried about getting his ID back and already told by the cops that they had the right to hold him, Hoberman agreed.

His account was confirmed by David Snetman, the Transportation Alternatives staffer coordinating the survey, who came to the precinct to intervene. "They said the Patriot Act is somehow involved. The commanding officer, an Asian man, chimed in and said to me, 'Are you familiar with the Patriot Act?' " Snetman says. "They said if we wanted to continue our survey, Brian would have to delete the photos he'd taken. They didn't go so far as to say it was illegal; they just said they didn't want us to do it. I didn't really want to press the issue, so we just agreed and left. They were pretty upset."

Officers at the Fifth Precinct referred all calls to the NYPD's public information office. A spokesperson there, Deputy Chief Michael Collins, told the Voice he was "unable to find anyone familiar with the incident." However, Chief Collins said he did not see anything wrong with questioning the volunteers. "I would find it unusual if officers did not conduct a preliminary investigation if they observed unidentified people photographing department vehicles, officers' private vehicles, department buildings, etc.," Collins wrote in an e-mail.

But Chris Dunn of the New York Civil Liberties Union says the incident is troubling. "There are no prohibitions against photographing in public spaces," Dunn notes. "They can't mandate anyone to destroy photographs. If they said [the volunteers] could be held, that sounds like coercion to me."

It's not the first time New Yorkers have been detained for taking pictures of law enforcement vehicles parked illegally. On January27, Jan Lee, a Chinatown antique dealer, says he was stopped after photographing two cars—one bearing an NYPD placard and another belonging to a court officer—that were blocking a fire hydrant on Mott Street.

Lee says he was leaning in to capture the court officer's placard on the dash when an undercover detective shouted at him: "Who are you? What are you doing?" Unaware the officer was a cop, Lee kept shooting and snapped a photo of the detective, who he claims brushed the camera away, telling him, "You cannot take pictures!"

"I told him it was a public street and I can take pictures of whatever I want, and he said, 'No, you can't,' and hit my arm again. So I said, 'That's it, I'm calling the cops,' and flipped open my cell phone," Lee recalls. "Then he said, 'I am a cop' and flashed his badge."

According to Lee, the detective pushed him against a roll-down gate, then dragged him by the collar to the NYPD kiosk on Park Row. Lee, a prominent community advocate and business owner, says he was handcuffed and forced to kneel on the street for about 15 minutes while the detective and another uniformed officer radioed for backup.

The police took his camera and ran a check on his ID, then released him, telling him he needed a permit from the NYPD to photograph cars belonging to law enforcement personnel. "The officer said, 'There's a right way and wrong way to take photographs, and you're doing it the wrong way,' " Lee recalls.

The NYPD told the Voice the department has no record of this incident, either, though Lee says the commander of the Fifth Precinct visited his antique store on Mott Street to speak with him about it a few days later, after Lee called civil rights attorney Norman Siegel and Community Board 3.

Lee says he felt humiliated and doesn't buy the officers' claim: that they were concerned he could illegally copy the placards. He views his detention as an effort to intimidate him and other Chinatown activists, who have been raising a stink about what they see as the abuse of street-parking privileges by cops, court officers, and municipal workers in their neighborhood. They've made a short documentary about it called Clogged Arteries, in partnership with Community Board 3. Lee and fellow business owners say the all-day parking by police and other government workers (who are supposed to use their placards only on "official business") impedes emergency responders and drives away shoppers.

Police officers' seeming paranoia over street photography goes beyond disputes over parking placards. The MTA nixed its proposed ban on subway photos, but cops have been hassling people for filming at commuter rail stations. A NY1 reporter was briefly detained in Penn Station last month—while doing a story about this very issue.

"We are constantly getting complaints of people being approached by NYPD cops for independent photography and filming," says Dunn. The NYCLU recently filed a lawsuit on behalf of a well-known Indian documentary filmmaker who was stopped by police last May while filming taxis in midtown and then detained for several hours. Dunn also points to an incident on January 20, when police stopped a man taking pictures near the George Washington Bridge. According to Dunn, the officers brought him back to his home and went through his personal photo albums. The NYPD then sent two members of the intelligence divison to interview the man—a white massage therapist from Washington Heights who takes pictures of flowers as his hobby.

No doubt cops have reason to be on alert after 9-11. But at issue, says Dunn, are the degrees of interrogation to which people are being subjected—and to what end? In the case of the Chinatown incidents, Dunn offers a simple solution: "If police officers don't want their private vehicles photographed, then they should not park them on public streets."
http://villagevoice.com/news/0615,ferguson,72804,5.html


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ItsJustMe
 
Not good, not good. We're going to have defacto police states in some areas the way things are going.

I do find it interesting though that it seems common for people to be asked to "erase pictures" from their memory card. Unerasing photos once you get home is pretty damn easy as long as you don't take more pictures over the top of them. Heck, you can format the card and still get the photos back.
But I guess I don't want to start yelling that around too much or the cops will just seize the memory cards.


LIVE2BIKE80
 
I got to say that if this incident truly did happen, which I am not saying it didnt, I can't totally fault the police.

Number one, you always see police cars traveling over the speed limit, so bending the law alittle is nothing new. And can anybody here honestly say that if they were in a position of power they wouldnt use it to their advantage once in awhile (parking, speeding)

Secondly, if I was a cop, I would not want my license plate made public. That is just general common sense.

Also, with our heightened awareness of terrorism I for one am alittle uneasy about people suspiciously photographing public buildings.


brokenrobot
 
Good lord... where will it end? Anybody want to join me for a photography field trip to Chinatown?

And speaking of police harrassment... don't forget to stop by tonight's Bicycle Defense Fund fundraiser at the Southside Lounge in Williamsburgh!


nycm'er
 
Live2 we are talking about personal cars parked on sidewalks in a very crowded and cramped section of NYC. Chinatown has suffered quite a bit in the name of "heightened awareness of terrorism". Most of lower Chinatown is now a parking lot for NYPD and court officer parking. I lived in Chinatown for 7 years, and I can attest to government placard parking anywhere you can stick a car. I.E. Triple parked cars, where the inside two vehicles have left, now you have a personal car parked in the middle of the street. Fighting terror by driving a personal car in to lower manhattan? Hooey!

See you tonight brokenR!


timmhaan
 
same thing was happening with photography in the subways. police were stating it was against the law to photograph anything down there and demanded that people turn off cameras. turns out there is no such law and the police were completely out of line. people need to stand up to this crap.


EnigManiac
 
Over the past year, I have been taking pictures of cars illegally parked in bike lanes and forwarding them to both the Mayor's office and Metro Toronto police traffic division. I've heard back that some charges were laid. Granted, none of these vehicles, to my knowledge, were cops private vehicles. The difference is, I take mine with a camera-phone and immediately send them to my online album for forwarding. If the advocacy group who had taken the pics in NYC had used a similar tactic, they could have erased the pics from their camera-phone, but still have had them saved in an album, unknown to the police.


jfmckenna
 
Secondly, if I was a cop, I would not want my license plate made public. That is just general common sense.


LOL you mean the plate attached to the car that rolls down public streets visible to everyone all over New York City.



Also, with our heightened awareness of terrorism I for one am alittle uneasy about people suspiciously photographing public buildings.

What exactally is 'suspiciously' anyway. More importantly whos job is it to define 'suspiciously '


catatonic
 
Heh...maybe someday about 50 people with camcorders should go down there, snag all the plates on video, then disperese and try to get the entire video online...making sure the Times gets hold of the address first to get them to host the video as well.

Should make for a nice story "police abusing parking privs for personal use, theft of services" (parking is technically a service)


genericbikedude
 
NYC cops are usually pigs. They consider themselves to be some sort of thin blue line between the rich bourgeois town that NYC has become, and a TaxiDriver-esque picture of 70s NYC. Basically, they think that they are the law (subway recruitment ads support this). When you turn the camera on them, you are undermining this central pillar of collective cop ideology, and they get pissed and fling their weight around.

BTW: It is impossible to have a state that is NOT a police state. The nation state has been defined (Weber) as the "organization with the monopoly on the legitimate use of violence in a specific geographical region."


LIVE2BIKE80
 
Lots of rebels here I see


LIVE2BIKE80
 
Listen, I'm not here to make anymore enemies, I did a good enough job of that on my Ironic Weight Weenie thread. Not that I care.

All I am saying is that there is a difference between driving your personal car down the street with your license plate visible, and showing a picture of it in a newspaper and indicating the it's a cop's car. At least black or blur out the number's. If they drive around with placards on their car it is their own fault. My father has been a Suffolk cop for 20 something years and refuses to have any visible indication on his body that he is a cop, nor have I ever seen him abuse his authority.

As for suspicious actions, I don't know, I wasn't there. But I know when things look suspicious and when they do not and would judge for myself. You don't have to be very obvious if you are trying to capture the structural support system of a subway terminal. If I was taking pictures of something, with no malevolent intent, and was stopped by someone I really wouldnt give a flying F if I have nothing to hide.


EnigManiac
 
There used to be a time when police officers were expected to be EXAMPLES of law-abiding virtue that others were supposed to aspire to. They were expected to, and most often did, exemplify respect for the law---not for their role in enforcing the law---but for the law itself, never dreaming of ever violating even seemingly minor or insignificant statutes. Wouldn't it be nice if the police returned to those good old days?


brokenrobot
 
All I am saying is that there is a difference between driving your personal car down the street with your license plate visible, and showing a picture of it in a newspaper and indicating the it's a cop's car.

Who said newspaper? Nobody's printing cops' plates in any newspaper... What's going on here is that cops are breaking the law / abusing their privilege in what amount to extralegal ways, and activists are documenting their abuses. These photos are typically used for presentations to the city council and etc (though Transporation Alternatives might have had another use in mind - I don't know).

If you're going to troll, at least try to keep up with the plot, OK?


ponchotempest
 
I don't agree with any form of restriction to personal freedoms, like seizing photos in the name of terrorism(this stuff is really getting old). but if I were a cop, I'd park wherever I wanted to.


ItsJustMe
 
All I am saying is that there is a difference between driving your personal car down the street with your license plate visible, and showing a picture of it in a newspaper and indicating the it's a cop's car.

I saw nothing in the article to indicate that they were going to publicize the cops plate numbers. It sounded like they were just building a case. The data may have been used in many ways.

If we stop people from gathering any kind of data that someone might possibly use in some way that others don't like, we'll have to shut down pretty much all forms of communications including speech.


some_guy282
 
If we stop people from gathering any kind of data that someone might possibly use in some way that others don't like, we'll have to shut down pretty much all forms of communications including speech.

Very well said. It's a slippery slope we don't want to start on.


wagathon
 
How would you like it if every morning, as you stepped off your front porch, yawned at the sunrise and scratched your balls, you saw your neighbor filming you, hoping to catch you in some compromising situation?


randya
 
How would you like it if every morning, as you stepped off your front porch, yawned at the sunrise and scratched your balls, you saw your neighbor filming you, hoping to catch you in some compromising situation?
The point is, the cops are doing this already, but their attitude is 'do as we say, not as we do.'


brokenrobot
 
How would you like it if every morning, as you stepped off your front porch, yawned at the sunrise and scratched your balls, you saw your neighbor filming you, hoping to catch you in some compromising situation?


How'd you like it if every time you asked your neighbor not to park on your front porch, he hauled you inside his house, searched you, and refused to let you leave for five or six hours?

Your analogy is totally irrelevant to the situation under discussion.


LIVE2BIKE80
 
How would you like it if every morning, as you stepped off your front porch, yawned at the sunrise and scratched your balls, you saw your neighbor filming you, hoping to catch you in some compromising situation?


Whip it out and hit the camera lens with it:eek:


ItsJustMe
 
How would you like it if every morning, as you stepped off your front porch, yawned at the sunrise and scratched your balls, you saw your neighbor filming you, hoping to catch you in some compromising situation?

As I understand it, this is already reality in some places. Ask Londoners.
I saw the other day that the average NYC resident is caught on camera 75 times per day. The average Londoner, over 400.

The difference is, the cops don't like it when WE are watching THEM. They're ALWAYS watching US but apparently that's OK.

A few weeks ago I read that some city's police chief stated that he thought it was a good idea to continue to build up surveillance cameras up to and including inside private residences. Not 5 minutes before I read a story about how an investigative reporter had gone into a bunch of police stations with a hidden camera and asked for the forms to report bad police behavior. He was harrassed at some, and in one case actually screamed at and chased down the street by the cops.

My point? Let's have some cameras inside the police station that WE can watch before we have them in houses that THEY can watch.

After all, I hear all the time, if you aren't doing anything wrong, you shouldn't mind. Surely the police aren't doing anything wrong? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


rodny71
 
I'm tired of seeing cops thinking they are above the law. NYC is full of these arrogant jerks. I've seen cops with their families in a mini van look both ways at a red light and continue like its a stop sign.


slagjumper
 
How would you like it if every morning, as you stepped off your front porch, yawned at the sunrise and scratched your balls, you saw your neighbor filming you, hoping to catch you in some compromising situation?

I would not like it, but its not against the law. Scratch inside, behind the blinds, if you have crabs and dont want others to legally photograph you.


On another note, All gang members who have issues with the NYPD:
Look for the illegally parked cars around the station in China town. Then go to the web to find out where they live. Get real. Nothing against the law about photographing licenes plates. Isnt security the NYPD's job? This reminds me of Zimbabwe, where the dictator there insists no photos of government areas. People who live in grass houses should not throw lawn mowers.

"Hoberman says the officers listed several reasons they could not photograph cops' personal vehicles—including concerns that if the license plate numbers were published online, gang members could track police to their homes. "One officer asked if we were familiar with the gang situation in Chinatown," Hoberman recalls. "He said his tires had been slashed outside the precinct. He said, 'This is not the West Village.' And he mentioned the Patriot Act. "


Michigander
 
For many various reasons the NYPD has long thought it was above the law. I have never been there, but I consider NYC a dump that I will never visit.


nycm'er
 
For many various reasons the NYPD has long thought it was above the law. I have never been there, but I consider NYC a dump that I will never visit.




Don't worry, you won't be missed.


slagjumper
 
So can anyone park their car in a caotic and illegal mannor in front of a NYC police station and get away with it?


rideabike
 
It's ironic that the people who drafted the Constitution were concerned about the British illegally detaining common citizens. As a result, they placed protections against this in the document. The British used the same arguments to justiy their actions as I see here - security, prevent terrorism, etc.

Now, 200+ years later, it's our government that is illegally detaining common citizens. And some American citizens are defending the actions, using the arguments that the British used.

I guess if those americans were alive 200 some years ago, they would have fought for King George against the colonists.


banerjek
 
Also, with our heightened awareness of terrorism I for one am alittle uneasy about people suspiciously photographing public buildings.
Yeah, you gotta watch out for tourists....

Now that cameras can be made small and unobtrusive, there's no way to prevent photographing in public spaces. Anyone yakking on a phone could be snapping pictures, but there are much easier ways to get hi res photos of anyplace you like. You won't find me sympathizing with the cop bashing rebels on BF very often, but if I got harrassed like that, I think I would regularly post the pics on the internet after blurring the plates.

Having said that, I work in computers and there are plenty of idiotic, ineffective, and cumbersome practices which are widely observed in the name of "security". I shouldn't be surprised that equally dumb policies exist in the physical world.


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