Eatadonut
04-14-06, 02:49 PM
Drill holes in your hubs and fill them with linseed oil!
drill holes....in...
uh - wrong thread?
drill holes....in...
uh - wrong thread?
View Full Version : Effect of learning VC
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sbhikes
04-14-06, 04:21 PM
I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it. In actuality, most of us probably ride as VC as anybody. We just don't like The VC Brand ®.
flipped4bikes
04-14-06, 04:37 PM
I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it. In actuality, most of us probably ride as VC as anybody. We just don't like The VC Brand ®.
+1.
+1.
Helmet Head
04-14-06, 04:43 PM
I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it. In actuality, most of us probably ride as VC as anybody. We just don't like The VC Brand ®.
And you'd probably be against peace, motherhood and apple pie if you didn't like how it was "presented". :rolleyes:
And you'd probably be against peace, motherhood and apple pie if you didn't like how it was "presented". :rolleyes:
noisebeam
04-14-06, 06:21 PM
I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it. In actuality, most of us probably ride as VC as anybody. We just don't like The VC Brand ®.
The main messenger on BF can often be stubborn, provides odd or contentious analogies that confuse the issues, may present themself as better than others (in communication, in knowledge application), but they also have good points. It would be a shame to dismiss them just because of the personality and communication quirks of the messenger.
There are many other sources of VC beyond those folks active in BF, some have quirks of their own of course. I suggest one (not to you Diane as I know you do this) samples a range of messengers and sources both here and in book and web sites, each with a style of their own and each with subtle differences in recommendations, in cycling advocacy politics, in presentation and in objectives. And with that sampling use ones own critcial thought and try or experiment with different cycling in traffic techniques and learn what does and what doesn't work for you.
If one gets bogged down into anti-VC just by one or two VC proponents, thats closed minded.
Al
The main messenger on BF can often be stubborn, provides odd or contentious analogies that confuse the issues, may present themself as better than others (in communication, in knowledge application), but they also have good points. It would be a shame to dismiss them just because of the personality and communication quirks of the messenger.
There are many other sources of VC beyond those folks active in BF, some have quirks of their own of course. I suggest one (not to you Diane as I know you do this) samples a range of messengers and sources both here and in book and web sites, each with a style of their own and each with subtle differences in recommendations, in cycling advocacy politics, in presentation and in objectives. And with that sampling use ones own critcial thought and try or experiment with different cycling in traffic techniques and learn what does and what doesn't work for you.
If one gets bogged down into anti-VC just by one or two VC proponents, thats closed minded.
Al
sbhikes
04-14-06, 06:30 PM
And you'd probably be against peace, motherhood and apple pie if you didn't like how it was "presented". :rolleyes:
You say that as if you believe that all you have presented is based in fact--even in Platonic perfection--and to disagree with your (and JF's) presentation therefore is to disagree with fact and perfection. This of course is absurd.
You say that as if you believe that all you have presented is based in fact--even in Platonic perfection--and to disagree with your (and JF's) presentation therefore is to disagree with fact and perfection. This of course is absurd.
Helmet Head
04-14-06, 06:38 PM
And you'd probably be against peace, motherhood and apple pie if you didn't like how it was "presented".
You say that as if you believe that all you have presented is based in fact--even in Platonic perfection--and to disagree with your (and JF's) presentation therefore is to disagree with fact and perfection.
How on Earth did you leap to that absurd conclusion???
This of course is absurd.
Had I said that as if I believed "that all I have presented is based in fact--even in Platonic perfection--and to disagree with me (and JF's) presentation therefore is to disagree with fact and perfection", that indeed would be absurd. But I didn't, so your point is moot.
However, what is truly absurd is the conclusion to which you leapt. Just another clue as to why you so often seem to misunderstand so much. Apparently, you just read between the lines with abandon, and with a very wild imagination.
You say that as if you believe that all you have presented is based in fact--even in Platonic perfection--and to disagree with your (and JF's) presentation therefore is to disagree with fact and perfection.
How on Earth did you leap to that absurd conclusion???
This of course is absurd.
Had I said that as if I believed "that all I have presented is based in fact--even in Platonic perfection--and to disagree with me (and JF's) presentation therefore is to disagree with fact and perfection", that indeed would be absurd. But I didn't, so your point is moot.
However, what is truly absurd is the conclusion to which you leapt. Just another clue as to why you so often seem to misunderstand so much. Apparently, you just read between the lines with abandon, and with a very wild imagination.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-14-06, 06:40 PM
contentious analogies ...
If one gets bogged down into anti-VC just by one or two VC proponents, thats closed minded.
Contentious analogies? You mean like like vehicular cycling dogma should be considered sancrosanct like peace, motherhood and apple pie?
VC "education" proponents get bogged down because because they keep relying on quoting/preaching from the good book, theories and "studies" written by the jack donkey in charge of the product being promoted. A body of work corrupted with pompous and sanctimonious BS, grotesque statistical fabrications and manipulations.
If one gets bogged down into anti-VC just by one or two VC proponents, thats closed minded.
Contentious analogies? You mean like like vehicular cycling dogma should be considered sancrosanct like peace, motherhood and apple pie?
VC "education" proponents get bogged down because because they keep relying on quoting/preaching from the good book, theories and "studies" written by the jack donkey in charge of the product being promoted. A body of work corrupted with pompous and sanctimonious BS, grotesque statistical fabrications and manipulations.
noisebeam
04-14-06, 06:46 PM
jack donkey in charge
You keep it real iltb. Seriously I know some folks get all worked up about your attacks, slams or snide comments, some are uncalled for and inapproprate - stop it, but some are needed to keep us grounded. I hope you enjoy some nice human energy transported beers this weekend.
Al
You keep it real iltb. Seriously I know some folks get all worked up about your attacks, slams or snide comments, some are uncalled for and inapproprate - stop it, but some are needed to keep us grounded. I hope you enjoy some nice human energy transported beers this weekend.
Al
Helmet Head
04-14-06, 06:54 PM
Contentious analogies? You mean like like vehicular cycling dogma should be considered sancrosanct like peace, motherhood and apple pie?
Goodness. Is that what you thought I was doing too? It's like I'm writing in one language, and you guys are reading in another.
For the record, I was simply responding to Diane' statement:
"I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it"
My point had nothing to do with VC. It was bringing attention to the fact taht she was choosing to be against something (it doesn't matter what) simply because of the way it was presented, and, most importantly, apparently regardless of any actually merits.
So, to illustrate this point, I simply tried to think of something symbolizing unassailability - "peace, motherhood and apple pie" is what came to mind - and joked that she would be even against that if she didn't like how it was presented.
Apparently, that went right over her and ILTB's heads, who both thought I was somehow comparing VC and my presentation of it to perfection.
Unbelievable. It's no wonder there is so much disagreement around here.
Goodness. Is that what you thought I was doing too? It's like I'm writing in one language, and you guys are reading in another.
For the record, I was simply responding to Diane' statement:
"I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it"
My point had nothing to do with VC. It was bringing attention to the fact taht she was choosing to be against something (it doesn't matter what) simply because of the way it was presented, and, most importantly, apparently regardless of any actually merits.
So, to illustrate this point, I simply tried to think of something symbolizing unassailability - "peace, motherhood and apple pie" is what came to mind - and joked that she would be even against that if she didn't like how it was presented.
Apparently, that went right over her and ILTB's heads, who both thought I was somehow comparing VC and my presentation of it to perfection.
Unbelievable. It's no wonder there is so much disagreement around here.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-14-06, 07:16 PM
You keep it real iltb. Seriously I know some folks get all worked up about your attacks, slams or snide comments,
IMHO "jack donkey" is a much friendlier term than lying M-F, even if not as spot on. But it seems to be decorous enough for anyone not offended by truth. There is nothing snide at all about my descriptions of the lack of intellectual honesty and deliberate distortions found throughout the work of Forester or those who blithely repeat his gibberish about risk reduction potential of VC education. That the acolytes and logically impaired repeat the lies as a mantra doesn't change a thing. Blue and red stars along side the repititions of the distortions and lies doesn't add a lick of credibility either.
However if anyone chooses to "learn" about cycling risk analysis from characters who have no concern for either honesty or credibility, they can be my guest. A willingness to be bamboozled by statistical flim flam adds no credibilty to any one's statements
IMHO "jack donkey" is a much friendlier term than lying M-F, even if not as spot on. But it seems to be decorous enough for anyone not offended by truth. There is nothing snide at all about my descriptions of the lack of intellectual honesty and deliberate distortions found throughout the work of Forester or those who blithely repeat his gibberish about risk reduction potential of VC education. That the acolytes and logically impaired repeat the lies as a mantra doesn't change a thing. Blue and red stars along side the repititions of the distortions and lies doesn't add a lick of credibility either.
However if anyone chooses to "learn" about cycling risk analysis from characters who have no concern for either honesty or credibility, they can be my guest. A willingness to be bamboozled by statistical flim flam adds no credibilty to any one's statements
catatonic
04-14-06, 08:16 PM
All I have to say is "do those books provide any insight that was better than the bicycle relevant parts of the vehicle code for most states?"
If you read for example, California's vehicle code....all their rules pretty much make sense....follow them, and people can see you, and you are predictable. That's what rules are for...to make things flow a bit easier.
The part where I see the need for auxillary books are people are trying to band-aid the problem....drivers in large not following vehicle code in their daily travels. Sadly this is not pounded into their heads as much as it should.
On the other hand, lots of cyclists aren't either. Lots of no lights, sidewalk racers, wrong-way riders, erratic road behavior, etc.
I guess the root of it is people forgot the biggest thing about safety...It's a group effort....if drivers became law-abiding, attentive, perfect drivers...we would still have pedestrians and cyclists die....why? Because of ignorance of rules....how can a guy at night see a guy with all black on, with no lights or even reflectors? Very well could become a statistic....same for a wrong way rider (usually these are the same folks without reflectors)....or the sidewalk racers, and driverway/crossroad traffic...or even the sidewalk racer creaming a pedestrian...those are all examples of failures of safety...and every single one has been covered under a vehicle code in one place or another.
The only thing I see a auxillary book helping with are tips like handling left turns on multi-lane roads...problem is, those tips don't always work...you have to come up with your own strategies....that's where using the brain a bit comes into play....strategize and git `r done!
If you read for example, California's vehicle code....all their rules pretty much make sense....follow them, and people can see you, and you are predictable. That's what rules are for...to make things flow a bit easier.
The part where I see the need for auxillary books are people are trying to band-aid the problem....drivers in large not following vehicle code in their daily travels. Sadly this is not pounded into their heads as much as it should.
On the other hand, lots of cyclists aren't either. Lots of no lights, sidewalk racers, wrong-way riders, erratic road behavior, etc.
I guess the root of it is people forgot the biggest thing about safety...It's a group effort....if drivers became law-abiding, attentive, perfect drivers...we would still have pedestrians and cyclists die....why? Because of ignorance of rules....how can a guy at night see a guy with all black on, with no lights or even reflectors? Very well could become a statistic....same for a wrong way rider (usually these are the same folks without reflectors)....or the sidewalk racers, and driverway/crossroad traffic...or even the sidewalk racer creaming a pedestrian...those are all examples of failures of safety...and every single one has been covered under a vehicle code in one place or another.
The only thing I see a auxillary book helping with are tips like handling left turns on multi-lane roads...problem is, those tips don't always work...you have to come up with your own strategies....that's where using the brain a bit comes into play....strategize and git `r done!
sbhikes
04-14-06, 08:23 PM
Goodness. Is that what you thought I was doing too? It's like I'm writing in one language, and you guys are reading in another.
For the record, I was simply responding to Diane' statement:
"I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it"
My point had nothing to do with VC. It was bringing attention to the fact taht she was choosing to be against something (it doesn't matter what) simply because of the way it was presented, and, most importantly, apparently regardless of any actually merits.
So, to illustrate this point, I simply tried to think of something symbolizing unassailability - "peace, motherhood and apple pie" is what came to mind - and joked that she would be even against that if she didn't like how it was presented.
Apparently, that went right over her and ILTB's heads, who both thought I was somehow comparing VC and my presentation of it to perfection.
Unbelievable. It's no wonder there is so much disagreement around here.
You really can't be so naive to not understand the basic concepts of marketing, can you? And living in a culture saturated by advertising, too. Tsk tsk.
Yes, it does matter how information is presented. Image is everything.
For the record, I was simply responding to Diane' statement:
"I think a lot of us here are so vehemently against VC because of the main messengers' presentation of it"
My point had nothing to do with VC. It was bringing attention to the fact taht she was choosing to be against something (it doesn't matter what) simply because of the way it was presented, and, most importantly, apparently regardless of any actually merits.
So, to illustrate this point, I simply tried to think of something symbolizing unassailability - "peace, motherhood and apple pie" is what came to mind - and joked that she would be even against that if she didn't like how it was presented.
Apparently, that went right over her and ILTB's heads, who both thought I was somehow comparing VC and my presentation of it to perfection.
Unbelievable. It's no wonder there is so much disagreement around here.
You really can't be so naive to not understand the basic concepts of marketing, can you? And living in a culture saturated by advertising, too. Tsk tsk.
Yes, it does matter how information is presented. Image is everything.
noisebeam
04-14-06, 09:17 PM
IMHO "jack donkey" is a much friendlier term than lying M-F,
Wait, now your changing terms as you wish. I clearly remember you said (to paraphrase) a jackdonkey was someone who insists that their way is the right way qne the only right way and anyone who differs is misguided and needs correction. Thats quite different than a lying MF.
Al
Wait, now your changing terms as you wish. I clearly remember you said (to paraphrase) a jackdonkey was someone who insists that their way is the right way qne the only right way and anyone who differs is misguided and needs correction. Thats quite different than a lying MF.
Al
I-Like-To-Bike
04-14-06, 09:44 PM
Wait, now your changing terms as you wish. I clearly remember you said (to paraphrase) a jackdonkey was someone who insists that their way is the right way qne the only right way and anyone who differs is misguided and needs correction. Thats quite different than a lying MF.
Al
The person who originates the deceptive studies and fabricated claims in order to manipulate people/sell his agenda AND those who should know better, but repeat the lies anyway because they agree with the agenda are the lying M-F's.
Those who are just gullible ,and or just repeating what they read on the Internet without giving it much thought are just not acting too smart.
The Jack Donkeys are among the later group who whine and complain that they don't like their soothing pablum disturbed by the facts, or worse yet, the truth.
Al
The person who originates the deceptive studies and fabricated claims in order to manipulate people/sell his agenda AND those who should know better, but repeat the lies anyway because they agree with the agenda are the lying M-F's.
Those who are just gullible ,and or just repeating what they read on the Internet without giving it much thought are just not acting too smart.
The Jack Donkeys are among the later group who whine and complain that they don't like their soothing pablum disturbed by the facts, or worse yet, the truth.
Scout!
04-14-06, 09:52 PM
Goodness. Is that what you thought I was doing too? It's like I'm writing in one language, and you guys are reading in another.
...
Apparently, that went right over [Diane's] and ILTB's heads.
Helmet Head, it's obvious what's happening here. You're simply much smarter than everybody else. I suggest you find some other forum, where people are as smart as you are, and post only there. :rolleyes:
...
Apparently, that went right over [Diane's] and ILTB's heads.
Helmet Head, it's obvious what's happening here. You're simply much smarter than everybody else. I suggest you find some other forum, where people are as smart as you are, and post only there. :rolleyes:
MarkS
04-14-06, 10:31 PM
So reducing the chances of being involved in a fatal collision is not worth 25 bucks to you?
So PT Barnum says, "isn't it worth a few shillings to see one of the greatest works of art in all history?" And so I'z shell out the coins and walk in to see a picture of the Mona Lisa tatooed on a fat man's belly ...
Is the information really that much different than what you can get in other books or even in the web forum? If there is some magic bullet gem of information that everyone should know about in order to save their lives ... then its almost criminal to hold it up for sale.
Information that is considered critical for advocacy of various groups is always available for free or little cost. I can read a dozen different versions of the Bible at biblegateway. Watchtower literature is handed out at bus stops. Dyanetics floods the thrift stores. The local library even has "tracts" about vegetarianism. I imagine with a little searching I could find Falun Gong, Buddhist literature, and the Quran.
I'm not saying I won't (eventually) buy a copy, but I don't really want to spend a $100 to compare a half dozen books on biking "dogma". Perhaps a better poll would be, "Which book helped you most with cycling?"
So PT Barnum says, "isn't it worth a few shillings to see one of the greatest works of art in all history?" And so I'z shell out the coins and walk in to see a picture of the Mona Lisa tatooed on a fat man's belly ...
Is the information really that much different than what you can get in other books or even in the web forum? If there is some magic bullet gem of information that everyone should know about in order to save their lives ... then its almost criminal to hold it up for sale.
Information that is considered critical for advocacy of various groups is always available for free or little cost. I can read a dozen different versions of the Bible at biblegateway. Watchtower literature is handed out at bus stops. Dyanetics floods the thrift stores. The local library even has "tracts" about vegetarianism. I imagine with a little searching I could find Falun Gong, Buddhist literature, and the Quran.
I'm not saying I won't (eventually) buy a copy, but I don't really want to spend a $100 to compare a half dozen books on biking "dogma". Perhaps a better poll would be, "Which book helped you most with cycling?"
randya
04-14-06, 10:47 PM
Perhaps a better poll would be, "Which book helped you most with cycling?"
I totally agree, but it wouldn't fit HH's agenda.
I totally agree, but it wouldn't fit HH's agenda.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-15-06, 06:02 AM
Is the information really that much different than what you can get in other books or even in the web forum? If there is some magic bullet gem of information that everyone should know about in order to save their lives ... then its almost criminal to hold it up for sale.
...
I'm not saying I won't (eventually) buy a copy, but I don't really want to spend a $100 to compare a half dozen books on biking "dogma". Perhaps a better poll would be, "Which book helped you most with cycling?"
The author claims that the book and associated training materialswill reduce cycling risk for the "incompetent" population of cyclists (almost all cyclists at present IAW the author) by 80%.
You are right, it would be downright criminal to withhold such a lifesaving measure from the public just to gain some filthy lucre. In this case though -No Facts (to support the P.T. Barnum-type quantitative safety claims), No Foul!
Another poll question might be which book or web site on cycling has the most foolish information/guidance and is dishing out the most misinformation and distortions.
...
I'm not saying I won't (eventually) buy a copy, but I don't really want to spend a $100 to compare a half dozen books on biking "dogma". Perhaps a better poll would be, "Which book helped you most with cycling?"
The author claims that the book and associated training materialswill reduce cycling risk for the "incompetent" population of cyclists (almost all cyclists at present IAW the author) by 80%.
You are right, it would be downright criminal to withhold such a lifesaving measure from the public just to gain some filthy lucre. In this case though -No Facts (to support the P.T. Barnum-type quantitative safety claims), No Foul!
Another poll question might be which book or web site on cycling has the most foolish information/guidance and is dishing out the most misinformation and distortions.
Brian Ratliff
04-15-06, 11:14 AM
Goodness. Is that what you thought I was doing too? It's like I'm writing in one language, and you guys are reading in another.
Let's see... If everyone keep getting what you say wrong, and it is a consistent problem (and according to you, it is); perhaps the problem is not with the reader but the writer.
Let's see... If everyone keep getting what you say wrong, and it is a consistent problem (and according to you, it is); perhaps the problem is not with the reader but the writer.
Roody
04-15-06, 11:49 AM
I hate all of you.
Brian Ratliff
04-15-06, 11:56 AM
I hate all of you.
That's too bad. I was rather liking you... but whatever.
That's too bad. I was rather liking you... but whatever.
I-Like-To-Bike
04-15-06, 12:02 PM
I hate all of you.
Would that be a cyber version of the punch in the face you gave some motorist that you had words with? Or is it more like your giving obscene hand gesture s at every motorist who didn't recognize that you were taking a lane when you were a pedestrian. Or is it more like your trying to come up with a method of sabotaging a low paid co-worker with her boss because she doesn't verbally admire your cycling accomplishments?
Still working on controlling your anger management? Perhaps you should try another method. Or change your meds.
Would that be a cyber version of the punch in the face you gave some motorist that you had words with? Or is it more like your giving obscene hand gesture s at every motorist who didn't recognize that you were taking a lane when you were a pedestrian. Or is it more like your trying to come up with a method of sabotaging a low paid co-worker with her boss because she doesn't verbally admire your cycling accomplishments?
Still working on controlling your anger management? Perhaps you should try another method. Or change your meds.
Roody
04-15-06, 12:17 PM
Still working on controlling your anger management? Perhaps you should try another method.
Thanks for the advice. I'm taking it. G'bye Stanley.
Thanks for the advice. I'm taking it. G'bye Stanley.
genec
04-15-06, 12:44 PM
I have read both EC and UC and agree for the most part with Hurst. I promote Hurst to any newer riders with whom I have the chance to discuss cycling.
I have also taken both Road 1 and Road 2 and I was a vehicular cyclist long before I took the classes... having learned how to ride from other long experienced cyclists and some 30 years of riding both as a long distance tourist, and as a daily commuter. I took the classes mostly to affirm what I was already doing and to see if there was something I had somehow missed along the way... after all, I can't claim to have "never been confronted by a motorist like some cyclists."
Now this is not to say I didn't learn anything from the vc classes... I did take away a tidbit or two... but these had more to do with maintenence issues than riding techniques.
One thing I did NOT learn in the vc classes I took was any sort of hate for bike lanes... Not that I love them, but I do find utility in some bike lanes and feel that on higher speed multilaned roads, bike lanes make as much sense as any other lane on the road.
I wasn't even going to take this silly poll, but after checking in and seeing Serge pat himself on the back for being one of the few to read EC and UC... I just had to chime in.
I have also taken both Road 1 and Road 2 and I was a vehicular cyclist long before I took the classes... having learned how to ride from other long experienced cyclists and some 30 years of riding both as a long distance tourist, and as a daily commuter. I took the classes mostly to affirm what I was already doing and to see if there was something I had somehow missed along the way... after all, I can't claim to have "never been confronted by a motorist like some cyclists."
Now this is not to say I didn't learn anything from the vc classes... I did take away a tidbit or two... but these had more to do with maintenence issues than riding techniques.
One thing I did NOT learn in the vc classes I took was any sort of hate for bike lanes... Not that I love them, but I do find utility in some bike lanes and feel that on higher speed multilaned roads, bike lanes make as much sense as any other lane on the road.
I wasn't even going to take this silly poll, but after checking in and seeing Serge pat himself on the back for being one of the few to read EC and UC... I just had to chime in.
Helmet Head
04-15-06, 12:57 PM
So, to illustrate this point, I simply tried to think of something symbolizing unassailability - "peace, motherhood and apple pie" is what came to mind - and joked that she would be even against that if she didn't like how it was presented.
...
Unbelievable. It's no wonder there is so much disagreement around here.
You really can't be so naive to not understand the basic concepts of marketing, can you? And living in a culture saturated by advertising, too. Tsk tsk.
Yes, it does matter how information is presented. Image is everything.
This is unbelievable.
Of course from a marketing perspective image is everything. Because marketers don't care about the truth, they just want their products to be purchased, for whatever reason.
But you appear to be promoting the image is everything approach from a learning perspective. When you're learning, it's incumbent upon you to look beyond image. "Image is everything" means "judging a book by its cover." Many people do judge books by their covers, and that's why marketers spend so much time and money designing book covers. For them, "image IS everything", indeed. But if you're really interested in learning, you try not to be influenced by the cover, for better or worse. If you're really interested in learning, you should be trying to ignore "image".
Image is everything? I hope you're kidding.
(shaking my head in disbelief)
...
Unbelievable. It's no wonder there is so much disagreement around here.
You really can't be so naive to not understand the basic concepts of marketing, can you? And living in a culture saturated by advertising, too. Tsk tsk.
Yes, it does matter how information is presented. Image is everything.
This is unbelievable.
Of course from a marketing perspective image is everything. Because marketers don't care about the truth, they just want their products to be purchased, for whatever reason.
But you appear to be promoting the image is everything approach from a learning perspective. When you're learning, it's incumbent upon you to look beyond image. "Image is everything" means "judging a book by its cover." Many people do judge books by their covers, and that's why marketers spend so much time and money designing book covers. For them, "image IS everything", indeed. But if you're really interested in learning, you try not to be influenced by the cover, for better or worse. If you're really interested in learning, you should be trying to ignore "image".
Image is everything? I hope you're kidding.
(shaking my head in disbelief)
genec
04-15-06, 01:00 PM
I've read both books, but 90% of my cycling skills were garnered on the road. I think the majority of these books could be condensed into a simple double sided pamphlet that could be given away to motorists and cyclists. Both of these books are long-winded and use made up jargon where simple language would suffice. It reminds me of the sociological texts where the elite try to create the illusion of secret knowledge and it's all hogwash. There are some underlying truths in these books, but their sheer weight, and pedantry are going to turn off any novice cyclist who comes across them. And Serge, you do a disservice by implying that the reading of these books is mandatory for any discussion of cycling advocacy.
Further, you continue to ignore the other side of the coin which is motorist education. And I see the problem of this with the occasional negative motorist interactions that I have, maybe two a week. If a motorist is ignorant about cyclists rights, seeing me ride VC will not change their mind, it will only reinforce their prejudice of law flouting cyclits. In another thread you recently went off about the danger of Law enforcement being unaware of our rights too. I've had good and bad law enforcement interactions. Obviously any law enforcement education would trickle down to motorists, which would be a good thing.
I am honestly at a loss for why most of the forum react so negatively to VC, I think that for the most part it is the elitist, jargon-filled presentation and the implication that these tools are scientifically validated. But then I don't see anyone really offering any other suggestions.
-Marcus
Well said Marcus... especially regarding the issues of poorly informed motorists. I can really jump on that bandwagon as in the U.S. we devote more formal education to "health classes" than driving... and the resulting deaths in automobiles sure reflects that lack of education.
Further, you continue to ignore the other side of the coin which is motorist education. And I see the problem of this with the occasional negative motorist interactions that I have, maybe two a week. If a motorist is ignorant about cyclists rights, seeing me ride VC will not change their mind, it will only reinforce their prejudice of law flouting cyclits. In another thread you recently went off about the danger of Law enforcement being unaware of our rights too. I've had good and bad law enforcement interactions. Obviously any law enforcement education would trickle down to motorists, which would be a good thing.
I am honestly at a loss for why most of the forum react so negatively to VC, I think that for the most part it is the elitist, jargon-filled presentation and the implication that these tools are scientifically validated. But then I don't see anyone really offering any other suggestions.
-Marcus
Well said Marcus... especially regarding the issues of poorly informed motorists. I can really jump on that bandwagon as in the U.S. we devote more formal education to "health classes" than driving... and the resulting deaths in automobiles sure reflects that lack of education.
flipped4bikes
04-15-06, 01:51 PM
Perhaps a better poll would be, "Which book helped you most with cycling?"
Careful what you wish for!:rolleyes:
Careful what you wish for!:rolleyes:
sbhikes
04-15-06, 02:15 PM
This is unbelievable.
...
Image is everything? I hope you're kidding.
(shaking my head in disbelief)
Ever take a course at a school from a teacher with a stringy white thing dangling from his lips? If so did you remember the stringy white thing or whatever it was he was teaching?
Ever read something somewhere that had good information but was presented so poorly that you for whatever reason could not or would not finish it?
You don't think pushing your agenda doesn't fall into a marketing category? I suppose you actually believe that there is actually a difference between a documentary film, propaganda and advertising. Well my friend, teaching, spreading propaganda and advertising are one and the same. All 3 involve framing an issue, defining something according to particular cultural values, and hoping to impart information that someone will believe and act upon.
So it is me shaking my head in disbelief that you actually believe that people will separate the substance of what you say from the presentation of how you say it.
...
Image is everything? I hope you're kidding.
(shaking my head in disbelief)
Ever take a course at a school from a teacher with a stringy white thing dangling from his lips? If so did you remember the stringy white thing or whatever it was he was teaching?
Ever read something somewhere that had good information but was presented so poorly that you for whatever reason could not or would not finish it?
You don't think pushing your agenda doesn't fall into a marketing category? I suppose you actually believe that there is actually a difference between a documentary film, propaganda and advertising. Well my friend, teaching, spreading propaganda and advertising are one and the same. All 3 involve framing an issue, defining something according to particular cultural values, and hoping to impart information that someone will believe and act upon.
So it is me shaking my head in disbelief that you actually believe that people will separate the substance of what you say from the presentation of how you say it.
noisebeam
04-15-06, 02:26 PM
Serge - How come when on a bike you can communicate with 100% success to strangers some of whom have strong biases against cyclists, but with people you have been communicating with for months you don't get 100% success? You can't just blame the other party as the other party in the cycling situation may not be on the same wavelength or be receptive either.
Al
Al
atbman
04-16-06, 04:42 AM
Can't comment on Hurst as I've not read it, but it seems to me that, having read (and own) both EC and Bicycle Transportation, it seems to me that much of the strong disagreement over VC and the manner of JF's presentation of his ideas arises from his history (long) of battling ignorant, wrong-headed and plain prejudiced authorities.
So he's found it necessary to reinforce VC with oodles of examples from that long history (long before most of us ever got involved in either road riding or campaigning). This gives the impression of someone with a very strong sense grievance against the non-cycling "experts" who make the laws and, often, enforce them. It also make his style rather hectoring as he's had to repeat his arguments time and time again and often had them ignored.
However, his basic principles of VC are broadly the same as in most of the books and articles I've read, e.g. Cyclecraft and are the ones I've adopted by following the UK Highway Code (advice, not legislation), observing and learning from other road users' interactions with me. Reading such books and articles largely confirmed that I was, almost instinctively, following those principles. They will never stop collisions occurring entirely, but they will reduce them enormously.
Arguments about cycle lanes are largely irrelevant to whether or not someone rides VCwise. They are much more about the necessity for them if people are taught to ride VC. So, keep arguments about them separate from those on VC.
As for HH's unpopularity, maybe it does arise from his somewhat obsessional presentational style, but, again, shooting the messenger (for or against HH) doesn't take the argument any further.
The questionaire may or may not have been designed to elicit a particular response and I don't care either way. But, if you take JF's advice on VC, you will, by and large and within the limits of human fallibility, improve your on-road safety, just as you would if you took the very similar advice from John Franklin's Cyclecraft. All the rest is fluff and feathers.
So he's found it necessary to reinforce VC with oodles of examples from that long history (long before most of us ever got involved in either road riding or campaigning). This gives the impression of someone with a very strong sense grievance against the non-cycling "experts" who make the laws and, often, enforce them. It also make his style rather hectoring as he's had to repeat his arguments time and time again and often had them ignored.
However, his basic principles of VC are broadly the same as in most of the books and articles I've read, e.g. Cyclecraft and are the ones I've adopted by following the UK Highway Code (advice, not legislation), observing and learning from other road users' interactions with me. Reading such books and articles largely confirmed that I was, almost instinctively, following those principles. They will never stop collisions occurring entirely, but they will reduce them enormously.
Arguments about cycle lanes are largely irrelevant to whether or not someone rides VCwise. They are much more about the necessity for them if people are taught to ride VC. So, keep arguments about them separate from those on VC.
As for HH's unpopularity, maybe it does arise from his somewhat obsessional presentational style, but, again, shooting the messenger (for or against HH) doesn't take the argument any further.
The questionaire may or may not have been designed to elicit a particular response and I don't care either way. But, if you take JF's advice on VC, you will, by and large and within the limits of human fallibility, improve your on-road safety, just as you would if you took the very similar advice from John Franklin's Cyclecraft. All the rest is fluff and feathers.
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