As Spring has sprung and my riding time is increasing I decided to experiment with adjusting my lane positioning with an eye toward discouraging unsafe aggressive passing by overtaking motor vehicles. This experiment was prompted by many of the discussions in this forum.
Prior to the experiment, my lane position was mostly static - right side of the right tire track, 2-3 feet off the edge of road regardless of lane width. I don't use a mirror (though now I am re-thinking that) and would check on traffic from the rear based on sound or just occasionally looking back depending on how much traffic there was at that time. I thought my static lane positioning would deter aggressive passing on rural roads and it did to a point. But there were still a lot of drivers who were willing to force an oncoming car to slow down, swerve right or run halfway into the grass while passing too close to me at too high a rate of speed - dangerous to me and the oncoming car.
So, lately I have adjusted my non-traffic position to the left side of the right tire track. I have also been paying more attention to oncoming and overtaking motorists. When I see an oncoming vehicle I move to the center of the lane. If there are several oncoming vehicles I stay in the center of the lane effectively blocking the lane until there is a break in oncoming vehicles. Then I move right and wave any vehicles that have backed up behind me around. I also was more demonstrative with hand signals - slowing cars behind me when passing was not safe and then moving left in the lane.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well this worked. I also found that many a motorist actually appreciated the fact that I was making them wait and waiving them around when safe especially on a winding road with short sight distances. Many a motorist tooted the horn lightly or waved in appreciation when passing.
I have been practicing this both in pack rides and when riding alone or on the tandem. Seems to cut down on aggressive passing. And, even the drivers who get pissed have to slow down before overtaking.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
As Spring has sprung .... And, even the drivers who get pissed have to slow down before overtaking.
Does anyone remember Mr. Magoo with his yelling, ROAD HOG????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To you I say..."Oh Magoo, you've done it again!
roughstuff
San Rensho
I ride right in the middle of the lane if the lane is too narrow for a car to pass me safely within the lane. I try to ride on streets where the posted speed limit is 35 mph or less, and I try to keep my speed above 20mph. Usually don't have problems, but about every other day, I get a buzz pass or someone laying on the horn 25 feet from a stop sign or red light.
Don't get too far to the left, especially if there are unoccupied parking spaces to the right, I've had cars pass me on the right and try to push me over into oncoming traffic.
Ah, the joys of Florida (bicyclist death capital of the U.S.) riding!
LittleBigMan
As Spring has sprung and my riding time is increasing I decided to experiment with adjusting my lane positioning with an eye toward discouraging unsafe aggressive passing by overtaking motor vehicles. This experiment was prompted by many of the discussions in this forum.
This morning, a pickup truck pulled out of his residential driveway (I know where he lives) and I knew I'd be in for a close buzz (he doesn't like me.) I trusted him last time and he broke my trust by buzzing me too close for comfort. So this morning, I pulled right into the middle of the lane and made John Wayne wait.
He waited. He passed entirely in the next lane. If he had tried to buzz me this time, I was ready to swerve to the right. (If he ever buzzes me again, I'll report him.)
kf5nd
YES
All good, but get a mirror.
Keith99
If there are several oncoming vehicles I stay in the center of the lane effectively blocking the lane until there is a break in oncoming vehicles. Then I move right and wave any vehicles that have backed up behind me around.
Putting on a drivers hat for a second:
The part about moving tothe right and even waving on is the difference between a road hog, someone who doesn't gove a d@mn about anyone else, and someone who is just protecting himself and trying to make things better for everyone. It is important to encourage cars to pass once it is safe.
Helmet Head
As Spring has sprung and my riding time is increasing I decided to experiment with adjusting my lane positioning with an eye toward discouraging unsafe aggressive passing by overtaking motor vehicles. This experiment was prompted by many of the discussions in this forum.
Prior to the experiment, my lane position was mostly static - right side of the right tire track, 2-3 feet off the edge of road regardless of lane width. I don't use a mirror (though now I am re-thinking that) and would check on traffic from the rear based on sound or just occasionally looking back depending on how much traffic there was at that time. I thought my static lane positioning would deter aggressive passing on rural roads and it did to a point. But there were still a lot of drivers who were willing to force an oncoming car to slow down, swerve right or run halfway into the grass while passing too close to me at too high a rate of speed - dangerous to me and the oncoming car.
So, lately I have adjusted my non-traffic position to the left side of the right tire track. I have also been paying more attention to oncoming and overtaking motorists. When I see an oncoming vehicle I move to the center of the lane. If there are several oncoming vehicles I stay in the center of the lane effectively blocking the lane until there is a break in oncoming vehicles. Then I move right and wave any vehicles that have backed up behind me around. I also was more demonstrative with hand signals - slowing cars behind me when passing was not safe and then moving left in the lane.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well this worked. I also found that many a motorist actually appreciated the fact that I was making them wait and waiving them around when safe especially on a winding road with short sight distances. Many a motorist tooted the horn lightly or waved in appreciation when passing.
I have been practicing this both in pack rides and when riding alone or on the tandem. Seems to cut down on aggressive passing. And, even the drivers who get pissed have to slow down before overtaking.
:beer:
And +1 on the get a mirror thing. The reason you need a mirror is to know when it might be time to move aside from a centerish position in the outside lane to a more rightish position in the bike lane or to the right side of the road to let faster traffic pass. I say when it might be time, because, as you point out, there are many instances when you should stay centerish even though there is traffic approaching from behind, or even right behind you (e.g., when you're on a two lane road and there is oncoming traffic, and, thus, no room to safely pass you anyway).
huhenio
No road shoulder = Road Hogging. Works every time
noisebeam
Just don't call riding in a safe way "Road Hogging" It conveys the wrong message.
Al
Helmet Head
Just don't call riding in a safe way "Road Hogging" It conveys the wrong message.
Good point.
Is a motorcyclist riding in a centerish position "road hogging"?
genec
Good point.
Is a motorcyclist riding in a centerish position "road hogging"?
No, how could they be "road hogging," when they are moving at the same speed as all other motorised traffic... motorcyclists don't delay any other traffic in their use of the road. Has something to do with vast amounts of horse power... something that bicyclists do NOT have.
galen_52657
I try to ride on streets where the posted speed limit is 35 mph or less, and I try to keep my speed above 20mph
Speed limits in these parts go up to 50 MPH for rural 2 lane roads with no shoulder and lane widths usually less than 12' If I am out for a Sunday ride I pick my route by where I want to go, what I want to see and how little traffic I think there will be more than speed limit. I frequently ride several 50 MPH State roads because the paving is excellent, as is the scenery and the traffic count is low if you are there at a good time of day. As far as maintaining 20 MPH that would be impossible. There is just way too much climbing. Sunday I was out on the tandem and both my stoker and I were hurting from Saturday's ride (me) and gym workout (her) so we were just crawling up the hills 5-6 MPH in the granny. I still took as much road as I needed to keep order.
noisebeam
Hogging to me means taking more than you deserve out of greed. When riding a narrow lane and riding centerish or left you are taking only what you need to ensure you safety.
Unfortunately some motorists seem to view a cyclist riding in a safe and legal manner as a greedy selfish misguided hog and in response give them treatment they think such deserves when in fact they are only trying to be safe.
Calling ourselves hogs in this situation can only have the negative effect of perpetuating the belief that we are.
Al
Helmet Head
No, how could they be "road hogging," when they are moving at the same speed as all other motorised traffic... motorcyclists don't delay any other traffic in their use of the road. Has something to do with vast amounts of horse power... something that bicyclists do NOT have.
Why do you assume that I'm talking about motorcyclists moving at the same speed as all other motorized traffic? (hint: bad assumption)
Helmet Head
Hogging to me means taking more than you deserve out of greed. When riding a narrow lane and riding centerish or left you are taking only what you need to ensure you safety.
Unfortunately some motorists seem to view a cyclist riding in a safe and legal manner as a greedy selfish misguided hog and in response give them treatment they think such deserves when in fact they are only trying to be safe.
Calling ourselves hogs in this situation can only have the negative effect of perpetuating the belief that we are.
Al
Well put, Al, and dovetails nicely with how I think of "greed": a compelling desire to get more than one deserves or has a right to.
genec
Why do you assume that I'm talking about motorcyclists moving at the same speed as all other motorized traffic? (hint: bad assumption)
Well you are attempting to compare motorcycles to bicycles... I am only pointing out that the operating parameters of the two are quite different...
I have never seen a motorcycle operating in the manner of a bicycle. Most Motorcyclists I have seen seem to take a particular pleasure in the fact that they can both easily zip through traffic AND have far better acceleration and power to weight than most 4 wheeled vehicles out on the road.
I honestly have never seen a motorcycle move at less than the speed of all other traffic. Scooters, yes, but then I have also seen scooters (drivers) in the Bike Lane... acting just like cyclists.
Helmet Head
Well you are attempting to compare motorcycles to bicycles...
Only in some aspects, not in all aspects.
I am only pointing out that the operating parameters of the two are quite different...
Ah shucks, Gene. Thanks for pointing this out. Good thing we have you around to point out these things. :rolleyes:
I have never seen a motorcycle operating in the manner of a bicycle.
Please do not ignore this question: What do you mean by manner of a bicycle?
Most Motorcyclists I have seen seem to take a particular pleasure in the fact that they can both easily zip through traffic AND have far better acceleration and power to weight than most 4 wheeled vehicles out on the road.
What most motorcyclists may or may not do is completely irrelevant to my point, which, if you understood, you would recognize.
I honestly have never seen a motorcycle move at less than the speed of all other traffic.
You've never seen a guy cruising on a chopper in the slow lane while everyone else is passing him in the other lanes, including those in the slow lane who have to change lanes to pass him? You should pay more attention.
At any rate, would such a motorcyclist, regardless of how often any of them actually do this, be "hogging" the lane? I say no, and that's my point.
genec
1)Please do not ignore this question: What do you mean by manner of a bicycle?
2)You've never [seen] a guy cruising on a chopper in the slow lane while everyone else is passing him in the other lanes, including those in the slow lane who have to change lanes to pass him? You should pay more attention.
1) Riding in a slow manner, much slower than all other traffic, due to lack of "horsepower" to do anything else.
2) Nope, and even if I did, the motorists probably would not mess with him due to the dark leather jacket, the loud pipes, and the perceived connection with "bad ass bikers" created by clubs such as the Hell's Angels. Also bear in mind that any motorist messing with this guy can be quite easily caught by him... with only a flick of the wrist.
That latter situation doesn't apply to cyclists... who at best might catch someone messing with them if there is a stoplight along the way. This too may be part of the reason that some folks DO mess with cyclists... the perception that there is no way they can be caught. Bad assumption if one choses to mess with a motorcyclist.
It all comes down to potential horsepower... the dividing line between bicycles and motorcycles.
BTW, a "chopped" cruising motorcycle that might be used in the manner you describe is strangely enough known as a "Hog." Think there might be some connection?
noisebeam
...is strangely enough known as a "Hog." Think there might be some connection?
Harley Owners Group. But of course they could have decided to be a much more friendly sounding Harley Users Group.
Al
Helmet Head
What do you mean by manner of a bicycle?
Riding in a slow manner, much slower than all other traffic, due to lack of "horsepower" to do anything else.
Do you realize how prejudicial that is? You are judging someone based on what he is using for transportation independent of how he is behaving relative to others.
A motorcyclist may be moving faster, slower, or with other traffic. The odds may be that he's probably not moving slower, but it's not impossible. What determines his manner with respect to how fast he's traveling relative to others is his manner, not that he's on a motorcycle.
A bicyclist may be moving faster, slower, or with other traffic. The odds may be that he's probably moving slower, but it's not impossible that he's keeping up, or even moving faster. What determines his manner with respect to how fast he's traveling relative to others is his manner, not that he's on a bicycle. The very idea that there is a particular manner of a bicycle is another aspect of The Notion that cyclists are so different from drivers of other slow vehicles that they have to act and be treated differently.
It all comes down to potential horsepower... the dividing line between bicycles and motorcycles.
Pointing out stuff the rest of us wouldn't know without your help again? Hey, did you know that the "dividing line" between planes and cars is wings? :rolleyes:
genec
Pointing out stuff the rest of us wouldn't know without your help again? Hey, did you know that the "dividing line" between planes and cars is wings? :rolleyes:
I donno, YOU seem to be overlooking the very obvious... comparing the speed of motorcycles and bicycles. sheesh. Motorcycles and bicycles may operate in a very similar with regard to lane usage, and vehicle rights, but that is about the end of the comparison.
Also a bit of knowledge about airplanes might also be in order... it takes more than wings to fly. A car with wings might reach take off speed, but is going to play hell staying in the air.
Guess your "holier than thou" attitude must be short circuiting your common sense.
genec
Harley Owners Group. But of course they could have decided to be a much more friendly sounding Harley Users Group.
Al
Just doesn't have the same image... :D
Helmet Head
I donno, YOU seem to be overlooking the very obvious... comparing the speed of motorcycles and bicycles. sheesh. Motorcycles and bicycles may operate in a very similar with regard to lane usage, and vehicle rights, but that is about the end of the comparison.
.
Gene, your "manner of a bicycle" language, and the thinking behind it, applies the manner of a typical cyclist (as compared to say, the manner of typical motorcyclist) to any one particular cyclist in any specific situation, even when it does not apply. That's why it's prejudicial.
The manner of a bicycle language implies that EVERY cyclist is ALWAYS slower. It implies that EVERY cyclist should ALWAYS be off to the side and out of the way simply because he's on a bicycle, regardless of whether he's actually slower, or any other factors that should determine his manner. The fact that he's on a bicycle should only be a minor factor in determining the manner of a cyclist. Other factors are much more important, like the presence and relative speed of other traffic, the lane width, his destination, road condition, visibility, predictability, etc. etc. It's very misleading to refer to a concept such as a manner of a bicycle which implies that simply being on a bicycle is what should determine the manner of someone riding a bicycle.
You're like the southern good ol' boy whose prejudice blinds him from being able to see the negative implications of his prejudice.
sbhikes
No matter how hard I try I can't ride 3.5 miles an hour up a hill on a motorcycle and I can't ride 50 up the same hill on my bicycle. Motorcycles, when they do go slowly do so by choice. Even when I'm going as fast as I can on my bicycle, without significant gravity assistance, I am always slower than all motor vehicles.
I do not believe there are any significant, valid comparisons between bicycles and motorcycles. They are more dissimilar than they are alike.
Helmet Head
Is a motorcyclist riding in a centerish position "road hogging"?
I do not believe there are any significant, valid comparisons between bicycles and motorcycles. They are more dissimilar than they are alike.
I'm not comparing bicycles to motorcycles.
Maybe you'll get it if I put it like this? Are there any significant, valid comparisons between men and women? Are they more dissimilar, or more alike? Does it matter? Say we're comparing them in the workplace rather than in bed.
Of course, whatever dissimilarities there maybe between men and women in general, they should be ignored in the workplace. All that should matter is individual behavior and performance. What if, for example, you heard your manager talk about "The manner of a woman" in the context of someone's performance at work? Say he said, "Joe Smith has limited hours because of family obligations, in the manner of a woman". The fact that that women in general tend to work less overtime, and that women tend to not stick to their careers as much as men do, should be irrelevant in the evaluation of any one particular employee, should it not? But why? Because only individual behavior and performance matters, not whether the particular employee happens to be a man or a woman. And that's even true where the general physical dissimilarities are significant, like in firefighting and construction work, is it not?
So now let's look back at the traffic situation. If someone on a two-wheeler is traveling in a centerish lane position slower than the rest of traffic, such that everyone behind him has to slow down and change lanes to pass him, is he "road hogging" or not? More to the point, do you need to know whether the two-wheeler in question happens to be a bicycle or motorcycle in order to answer this question?
genec
Gene, your "manner of a bicycle" language, and the thinking behind it, applies the manner of a typical cyclist (as compared to say, the manner of typical motorcyclist) to any one particular cyclist in any specific situation, even when it does not apply. That's why it's prejudicial.
The manner of a bicycle language implies that EVERY cyclist is ALWAYS slower. It implies that EVERY cyclist should ALWAYS be off to the side and out of the way simply because he's on a bicycle, regardless of whether he's actually slower, or any other factors that should determine his manner. The fact that he's on a bicycle should only be a minor factor in determining the manner of a cyclist. Other factors are much more important, like the presence and relative speed of other traffic, the lane width, his destination, road condition, visibility, predictability, etc. etc. It's very misleading to refer to a concept such as a manner of a bicycle which implies that simply being on a bicycle is what should determine the manner of someone riding a bicycle.
You're like the southern good ol' boy whose prejudice blinds him from being able to see the negative implications of his prejudice.
Not hardly... but if that is the way YOU want to read it....
I simply mean that motorcyclists can use their speed to better blend in with other traffic... a luxury that bicyclists often do not have, thus might be refered to as road hogs if they followed the same center riding techniques that a motorcyclist usually uses.
It is that simple. The vehicle characteristics are different and therefore may require different handling techniques.
You read prejudice. I see practical.
Take your politics out of it and try to recall that usually slower traffic of any kind has a responsibility to give way to faster traffic, when safe to do so. Therefore if one is not slower than other traffic, that condition just doesn't exist.
Bekologist
the speed of the vehicle determines if it is "road hogging". a motorbike moving 60 mph is not impeding, or "road hogging", traffic, but a 12 MPH bicyclist would be impeding, or "road hogging", in all practical sense of the argument, Helmet Head.
STOP confusing a motorcyle's operating dynamic with a bicyclist, Helmet Head....everyone but you recognizes fundamental differences between the two machines.
You equate the two in a theoretical, 'rights oriented' view of equal representation, but there are KEY, BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL CORE differences between a gasoline driven motorized cycle and a human powered bicycle.
you're confusing personal ideology with the reality based, physical world.
genec
And you have never said... he throws the ball just like a woman...
Helmet Head
Not hardly... but if that is the way YOU want to read it....
I simply mean that motorcyclists can use their speed to better blend in with other traffic... a luxury that bicyclists often do not have, thus might be refered to as road hogs if they followed the same center riding techniques that a motorcyclist usually uses.
It is that simple. The vehicle characteristics are different and therefore may require different handling techniques.
You read prejudice. I see practical.
Take your politics out of it and try to recall that usually slower traffic of any kind has a responsibility to give way to faster traffic, when safe to do so. Therefore if one is not slower than other traffic, that condition just doesn't exist.
Yes, Gene, WE AGREE that motorcyclists can (but don't always) use their speed to better blend in with other traffic, a luxury that bicyclists often (but not always) do not have.
So let's talk about the point on which we appear to disagree. I'll ask you the same way I asked Diane:
If someone on a two-wheeler is traveling in a centerish lane position slower than the rest of traffic, such that everyone behind him has to slow down and change lanes to pass him, is he "road hogging" or not? More to the point, do you need to know whether the two-wheeler in question happens to be a bicycle or motorcycle in order to answer this question?
Helmet Head
the speed of the vehicle determines if it is "road hogging". a motorbike moving 60 mph is not impeding, or "road hogging", traffic, but a 12 MPH bicyclist would be impeding, or "road hogging", in all practical sense of the argument, Helmet Head.
STOP confusing a motorcyle's operating dynamic with a bicyclist, Helmet Head....everyone but you recognizes fundamental differences between the two machines.
You equate the two in a theoretical, 'rights oriented' view of equal representation, but there are KEY, BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL CORE differences between a gasoline driven motorized cycle and a human powered bicycle.
you're confusing personal ideology with the reality based, physical world.
No, I'm not. Why don't you actually quote me where I say anything that shows that I "equate the two in a theoretical, 'rights oriented' view of equal representation", and ignore the "KEY, BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL CORE differences between a gasoline driven motorized cycle and a human powered bicycle". Oh, you can't find any such quotes? Hmm, maybe that's BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY SUCH QUOTES, and you're pulling these opinions about what I'm saying out of your rear-end. :eek:
What I am saying is:
Even though a bicyclist is less likely to be traveling the same speed as other traffic than is a motorcyclist, it happens.
Even though a motorcyclist is less likely to be traveling slower than other traffic than is a bicyclist, it happens.
If a rider of a two-wheeler is traveling slower than other traffic, and causing them to have to change lanes to pass him, determining whether he is "road hogging" should not depend on whether the two-wheeler in question happens to be a motorcycle or a bicycle.
Nothing should be decided about what someone operating a two-wheeler should or should not do on a given road simply because he is on a bicycle rather than on a motorcycle (except whether it has enough power to operate on a road where slow moving vehicles are prohibited).
That's all I'm saying. Does anyone disagree? If so, which number, and why? If not, why are you arguing with me?
Brian Ratliff
What I am saying is:
Even though a bicyclist is less likely to be traveling the same speed as other traffic than is a motorcyclist, it happens.
Even though a motorcyclist is less likely to be traveling slower than other traffic than is a bicyclist, it happens.
If a rider of a two-wheeler is traveling slower than other traffic, and causing them to have to change lanes to pass him, determining whether he is "road hogging" should not depend on whether the two-wheeler in question happens to be a motorcycle or a bicycle.
That's all I'm saying. Does anyone disagree? If so, which number, and why? If not, why are you arguing with me?
So, do all your arguments then assume the cyclist is traveling at the same speed as traffic? Yes, it happens, but rarely and inconsistently unless there is congestion. In congestion, this is more likely and your advice differs in no way from any other advice an experienced cyclist will give. On a two lane country road (the subject of the OP), rarely. Even on the one part where I hit 50 mph on my bike, a motorized vehicle can go faster.
Helmet Head
So, do all your arguments then assume the cyclist is traveling at the same speed as traffic?
Of course not. Why do you ask?
genec
Yes, Gene, WE AGREE that motorcyclists can (but don't always) use their speed to better blend in with other traffic, a luxury that bicyclists often (but not always) do not have.
So let's talk about the point on which we appear to disagree. I'll ask you the same way I asked Diane:
If someone on a two-wheeler is traveling in a centerish lane position slower than the rest of traffic, such that everyone behind him has to slow down and change lanes to pass him, is he "road hogging" or not? More to the point, do you need to know whether the two-wheeler in question happens to be a bicycle or motorcycle in order to answer this question?
It depends on whether that vehicle can in some other way allow those vehicles behind to safely pass. If there is another lane, and the following vehicles can move to that other lane... but the perception of "road hog" will depend highly on the view of those stuck behind the slower vehicle.
As I mentioned before, a motorcyclist represents one type of user with a long well established type of reputation... AND the ability to answer back to any taunts and challenges. A cyclist on the other hand represents a very different image with nary the ability to respond to taunts and challenges.
Bekologist
Let's see if I've got this right, Mr. Helmet- according to all your logic,
both motorcycles AND bikes moving slower than the flow of traffic would be considered "road hogging".
i think helmet heads sophistry is onto something!
CommuterRun
As Spring has sprung and my riding time is increasing I decided to experiment with adjusting my lane positioning with an eye toward discouraging unsafe aggressive passing by overtaking motor vehicles. This experiment was prompted by many of the discussions in this forum.
Prior to the experiment, my lane position was mostly static - right side of the right tire track, 2-3 feet off the edge of road regardless of lane width. I don't use a mirror (though now I am re-thinking that) and would check on traffic from the rear based on sound or just occasionally looking back depending on how much traffic there was at that time. I thought my static lane positioning would deter aggressive passing on rural roads and it did to a point. But there were still a lot of drivers who were willing to force an oncoming car to slow down, swerve right or run halfway into the grass while passing too close to me at too high a rate of speed - dangerous to me and the oncoming car.
So, lately I have adjusted my non-traffic position to the left side of the right tire track. I have also been paying more attention to oncoming and overtaking motorists. When I see an oncoming vehicle I move to the center of the lane. If there are several oncoming vehicles I stay in the center of the lane effectively blocking the lane until there is a break in oncoming vehicles. Then I move right and wave any vehicles that have backed up behind me around. I also was more demonstrative with hand signals - slowing cars behind me when passing was not safe and then moving left in the lane.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well this worked. I also found that many a motorist actually appreciated the fact that I was making them wait and waiving them around when safe especially on a winding road with short sight distances. Many a motorist tooted the horn lightly or waved in appreciation when passing.
I have been practicing this both in pack rides and when riding alone or on the tandem. Seems to cut down on aggressive passing. And, even the drivers who get pissed have to slow down before overtaking.
This sounds a lot like the way I ride on rural NOL roads and it does work, although I don't consider it road hogging. Generally, I have found that the more room I keep on my right, up to a point, being the center of the lane, the more room I am given on my left when being passed.:)
No matter how hard I try I can't ride 3.5 miles an hour up a hill on a motorcycle and I can't ride 50 up the same hill on my bicycle. Motorcycles, when they do go slowly do so by choice. Even when I'm going as fast as I can on my bicycle, without significant gravity assistance, I am always slower than all motor vehicles.
I do not believe there are any significant, valid comparisons between bicycles and motorcycles. They are more dissimilar than they are alike.
Not to pick on you, Diane. I just wanted to use this statement. From a safety aspect, motorcycles and bicycles are very much alike, more alike than dissimilar, in the dangers they face from four wheeled vehicles.
noisebeam
From a safety aspect, motorcycles and bicycles are very much alike, more alike than dissimilar, in the dangers they face from four wheeled vehicles.
I've always wondered if motorcycles could be significantly safer than bicycles as they have the potential to be be safer.
For example if one always motorcycles at low speeds and picks routes as a cyclist would (i.e. the back roads). Then has the safety advantage over bicycles of:
-rapid acceration when needed to get out of a bad situation and make left merges easier.
-brighter headlights and tailights, arm signals can be augmented with electric turn signals
-slightly larger front/rear profile.
-acceptance of being in centerish position as default.
-rider can wear more protective safety gear, especially a better helmet.
But motorcycles are (considered by many to be) a dangerous form of motor vehicle (10x the accident rate ?) as they are not driven to their safety potential. After all who would want to ride a motorcycle at 35mph in a 45mph zone and who will always pick the longer back route?
Al
San Rensho
Yes, Gene, WE AGREE that motorcyclists can (but don't always) use their speed to better blend in with other traffic, a luxury that bicyclists often (but not always) do not have.
So let's talk about the point on which we appear to disagree. I'll ask you the same way I asked Diane:
If someone on a two-wheeler is traveling in a centerish lane position slower than the rest of traffic, such that everyone behind him has to slow down and change lanes to pass him, is he "road hogging" or not? More to the point, do you need to know whether the two-wheeler in question happens to be a bicycle or motorcycle in order to answer this question?
To me, hogging the road would be taking up the entire lane when the lane is wide enough for a bike and a car to safely occupy it at the same time. If the lane is too narrow for both the bike and a car to safely occupy, then the bike is just behaving like a slow moving vehicle, e.g., a tractor on a country road, Sunday driver doing 40 on the freeway.
CommuterRun
Well, the way I understand it, it's not so much the way they're operated, but the biggest danger motorcyclists face is cars. Add this to the fact that motorcycles are as fast or faster than any other vehicle on the road and motorcycling becomes the single most dangerous form of transportation.
For instance: I don't remember specifically when it was, a year or two ago, in Gulf Breeze FL. Two motorcycles, both riding double, two friends and their dates, riding side-by-side on Hwy 98 through town, doing absolutely not one thing wrong. A cager decides to whip a U-turn in front of them and killed all 4. In a 35 mph speed limit stretch.
"I didn't see them."
Exactly the same thing we hear on bicycles.
noisebeam
Well, the way I understand it, it's not so much the way they're operated, but the biggest danger motorcyclists face is cars. Add this to the fact that motorcycles are as fast or faster than any other vehicle on the road and motorcycling becomes the single most dangerous form of transportation.
For instance: I don't remember specifically when it was, a year or two ago, in Gulf Breeze FL. Two motorcycles, both riding double, two friends and their dates, riding side-by-side on Hwy 98 through town, doing absolutely not one thing wrong. A cager decides to whip a U-turn in front of them and killed all 4. In a 35 mph speed limit stretch.
"I didn't see them."
Exactly the same thing we hear on bicycles.
Oh I undertand this. But cycling is said to be as safe driving a motorvehicle. If that is so that makes it safer than motorcycling. Which then leads to the idea if one drives a motorcycle as a bicycle and doesn't take advantage of the accerlation/speed capability (except for accident avoidance) then it could be safer than bicycling, because of other features that can make a motorcycle safer than a bike (I listed above)
Now obviously something is amiss in this logic or in the assertions I referenced.
Al
CommuterRun
Oh, I see what you're saying, yeah. I don't know. I guess if a motorcycle were operated at bicycle speeds it might be as safe or safer. But then, a motorcycle operated that slow would be throwing the ???? factor at drivers, so maybe not.(?)
genec
Oh I undertand this. But cycling is said to be as safe driving a motorvehicle. If that is so that makes it safer than motorcycling. Which then leads to the idea if one drives a motorcycle as a bicycle and doesn't take advantage of the accerlation/speed capability (except for accident avoidance) then it could be safer than bicycling, because of other features that can make a motorcycle safer than a bike (I listed above)
Now obviously something is amiss in this logic or in the assertions I referenced.
Al
Having once been a motorcyclist... and having taken several safety courses for motorcycling... I actually tend to agree.
The biggest problems with the motorcycle are the users... and pushing the limits, and the left hook of motorists. Both of these issues could be somewhat resolved if a motorcycle were ridden with the same attention to traffic detail that a bicyclist must observe... especially your suggestion of "finding safer routes."
Helmet Head
That's a real interesting observation... so, what we're saying is, that if you rode a motorcycle at bicycle speeds you would be safer. I guess that make sense.
Now, if you rode a motorcycle at bicycle speeds, would you be safer if you operated it vehicularly, or if you played the rolling pedestrian and drove it in bike lanes (ignoring the law prohibiting it) whenever possible, and kept to the outside of the lane as much as possible?
If you rode a motorcycle at bicycle speeds, would you be safer using destination positioning at intersections, or following the right edge track indicated by the bike lane (ignoring intersections where the bike lane is to the left of the right turn lane)?
Bekologist
you know what, Mr. HEAD, i think all of those questions about motor vehicles driven like bicycles you just posed are worthless, pure conjecture and worthy ONLY of sophistic introspection.....
For a guy like Mr. Head, that confuses driving his RV with riding a bike, i guess the confusion is merited.
Bekologist
Maybe the motorcycle could have a limiter on the engine, or a small displacement. For the sake of your worthless arguments, lets call it a Vespa.
Bikes are NOT operated in the manner of a rolling pedestrian - in a bike lane at walking speeds- what a sophist Mr. HEAD is!!!!!
Would a vespa operated at 12 in a 50 mph lane be considered 'hogging the lane?" I think so.
You know what, WHO CARES About the motorcycle, the vespa, or Mr. Head's RV (that he drives like he would a bicycle )
Equating a bike and a motorcycle as vehicles is complete FALLACY.
noisebeam
Would a vespa operated at 12 in a 50 mph lane be considered 'hogging the lane?" I think so.
It depends why the vespa was doing this. If the lane was too narrow to share, if they were preparing for a turn, or avoiding being right biased at an intersection when they were going straight, then no they are in no way 'hogging the lane'
Al
Helmet Head
Would a vespa operated at 12 in a 50 mph lane be considered 'hogging the lane?" I think so.
It depends why the vespa was doing this. If the lane was too narrow to share, if they were preparing for a turn, or avoiding being right biased at an intersection when they were going straight, then no they are in no way 'hogging the lane'
That's exactly right. And even though the same criteria should apply to the rider if he happens to be on a bicycle instead of a Vespa, it often doesn't. That's a manifestation of The Notion, and tragically, it is all too often expressed by the rider himself, who rides too close to the right - thus inviting motorists to try to squeeze into the narrow lane with him - because he believes he's supposed to ride there, simply because he is on a bicycle.
Helmet Head
Equating a bike and a motorcycle as vehicles is complete FALLACY.
Suggesting that I am, or anyone else is, equating a bike and a motorcyle is a STRAWMAN FALLACY.
Are you able to grasp the difference between comparing and equating? Do you understand the concept and purpose of an analogy?
Can you compare a man to a woman without equating them, or not?
Can you compare a human to monkey without equating them, or not?
Can you compare a car with a truck without equating them, or not?
Can you compare a motorcycle with a car without equating them, or not?
Can you compare a bicycle with a motorcycle without equating them, or not?
To say that two given entities are comparable in some context does not mean that anyone is equating them. :rolleyes:
noisebeam
That's exactly right. And even though the same criteria should apply to the rider if he happens to be on a bicycle instead of a Vespa, it often doesn't. That's a manifestation of The Notion, and tragically, it is all too often expressed by the rider himself, who rides too close to the right - thus inviting motorists to try to squeeze into the narrow lane with him - because he believes he's supposed to ride there, simply because he is on a bicycle.
Round here slow moving motor cycles (i.e. Vespa types) do get honked at when on arterials as they can't keep up with speed limit and/or desired speed of other drivers. I've seen it happen several times.
Some SMVs get good treatment due to their 'official' role or 'specialness' factor. This includes construction vehicles, farm vehicles, busses and antique cars.
But some SMVs driver get harrassed because they are viewed as 'lesser' or 'weak' this includes Vespas, bicycles and cars driven slower than they are capable of.
Al
Bekologist
Yes, comparing the differences or similarities in transportation mechanisms is different than equating them, Mr. HEAD, but you split hairs over minor semantic differences.....any slow moving vehicle will be the source of many a driver's ire......whats with all the tailgating, aggressive passing, etc?
I think you equate driving your RV to riding a bicycle, and therein lies some confusion in regards to 'equating' versus 'comparing' on your part.
A Vespa is NOT a bicycle. Your car is NOT a bicycle, Mr. HEAD. Your RV is NOT a bicycle, Mr. HEAD.