The "Notion" exists… I know what it is and I think I can explain it. I don’t believe HH has even properly defined the "Notion."
It comes down to this: “Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”
That’s it.
How do I know it exists?
I was riding home on a narrow 25MPH road, near a school, with speedbumps, and cars parked on either side… in other words, not much street surface upon which to ride… Just enough room for two narrow cars to pass side by side.
I was in the right lane, leftish of center, as I was expecting to go straight through the intersection ahead, which was controlled by a currently stale red traffic light. Also at the intersection was a car, waiting, to turn right; they were clearly pulled to the right… waiting for a gap… waiting for a green… what ever might move them sooner.
Behind me was a small truck… I’m moving at about 12MPH… 4 car lengths to either the red light, or the stopped car on the right. Everything is at a stop… ahead.
The motorist behind me reved up, I put out the outstretched hand… and then in a sudden move, he swerved around me to cover the entire 2 car lengths… to a stop.
He stopped right behind the already stopped vehicle… at the red light! I pulled up and yelled at his closed window… (BTW I am on the left of him because I am… as I said, going straight through)
I yell: “What, a pint of gas to go that 20 feet?”
He rolls down his window and says: “Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”
That’s it… everything else was just mindless rage and anger… and talking to a blank wall.
Where was I supposed to go? He was turning right; so to expect me to move to the right was totally mindless. I was going straight. I was right where I was supposed to be. In 2-3 car lengths he was going to come to either a red light… or another car… stopped.
A virtual brick wall.
Yet he had to get around me… because:
“Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”
That’s it.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Why is it that bikes are thought of in that way. Is it our culture?
I would be curious too, how the chinese, for example feel. Everyone has seen the photos/videos of downtown Shanghai, with the tons of bicycle riders. I wonder if you asked a cager how he felt, if he would be just as annoyed? The real question being, are the bikes more accepted there, or do people just have to deal with them more (safety in numbers). I would venture to guess that cagers in China don't really like cyclists anymore than they do here in the USA. They just don't have as much they can do about it since they are the minority.
Guess maybe it comes down to majority rules? Dunno. Would be interesting to ask.
-D
Blue Order
The $20mil question is why?
Why is it that bikes are thought of in that way. Is it our culture?
I would be curious too, how the chinese, for example feel. Everyone has seen the photos/videos of downtown Shanghai, with the tons of bicycle riders. I wonder if you asked a cager how he felt, if he would be just as annoyed? The real question being, are the bikes more accepted there, or do people just have to deal with them more (safety in numbers). I would venture to guess that cagers in China don't really like cyclists anymore than they do here in the USA. They just don't have as much they can do about it since they are the minority.
Guess maybe it comes down to majority rules? Dunno. Would be interesting to ask.
-DI think I understand this point of view: A bicycle is inherently the slower vehicle, so because it is the slower vehicle, it should yield to-- "get outta the way of"-- the inherently faster vehicles.
The individual circumstances don't really matter-- it doesn't matter that the light is red and all vehicles are stopped; it doesn't matter that all traffic is moving slowly; it doesn't matter that the bicycle may actually be moving faster than the motor vehicles. A bicycle is the slower vehicle, and should therefore get outta the way. It's not about rational thinking, it's about visceral reaction.
Of course, the problem is that the motorist can hold this point of view independent of whether bike lanes exist or not, which renders irrelevant the reasoning of the evangelist of PC.
HoustonB
385 words and all we know is: a male driver of a small truck and scant location details. That was really useful. Obviously you have given these types of interactions considerable thought and have concluded that Mr. Cretin poses no threat to any other cyclists at any point in the future.
You might argue that this was a very minor and trivial confrontation, yet it seems to have been enough to motivate you to “yell at his closed window” and subsequently start a thread here on the subject.
I’ll be the first to admit that I do not include a pen as a specific piece of equipment in the same manner as say the pump, spare tube and tire levers, but I’m starting to think it should be. From now on I’m going to try to remember in the heat of the moment that at a minimum the license plate details and a photo or good description of the driver/vehicle/plates are required.
No Record = No Consequences.
randya
Here's an article on Oregon bike law that specifically says bikes aren't subject to the slow moving vehicle law: http://www.stc-law.com/slowmoving.html
Blue Order
Here's an article on Oregon bike law that specifically says bikes aren't subject to the slow moving vehicle law: http://www.stc-law.com/slowmoving.htmlI know, I know. I'm not saying that motorists views are right, or even rational (in fact, I'm saying they're visceral, and not rational). I'm just saying that I think I understand what's going through their minds when they say stuff like "Bikes are supposed to get outta the way."
Helmet Head
I think I understand this point of view: A bicycle is inherently the slower vehicle, so because it is the slower vehicle, it should yield to-- "get outta the way of"-- the inherently faster vehicles.
The individual circumstances don't really matter-- it doesn't matter that the light is red and all vehicles are stopped; it doesn't matter that all traffic is moving slowly; it doesn't matter that the bicycle may actually be moving faster than the motor vehicles. A bicycle is the slower vehicle, and should therefore get outta the way. It's not about rational thinking, it's about visceral reaction.
Of course, the problem is that the motorist can hold this point of view independent of whether bike lanes exist or not, which renders irrelevant the reasoning of the evangelist of PC.
Right, just like a racist can hold his point of view independent of whether race segregated facilities exist where he lives. The official sanction of the relevant thinking has nothing to do with how justified these racists and morons feel in teaching others lessons about their way of thinking. So the whole MLK civil rights thing - that was a big waste of time. After all, it didn't solve anything. We'd be no worse off if The South still had segregated water fountains, back of the bus rules, and all the other Jim Crowe laws and customs. :rolleyes: And for those of you at a 6th grade reading level, no, I'm not comparing bike lanes to racism or racial segregation.
Yes, of course a motorist can hold this POV independent of whether BLs exist or not. But that does not mean bike lanes have NO EFFECT on how many people hold the view, or how deeply they believe it.
You are absolutely right this mostly comes from a visceral reaction. But what makes this feeling so deep? Why do they feel so justified in feeling this way? That's where bike lanes play an important role, I believe. It's one thing to just think it, or just feel it. It's another to see an official sanction of what you're feeling. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it's a powerful thing to see your thoughts and feelings officially sanctioned. Do we really want to be supporting anything that amounts to an official sanction of what these morons are thinking? No, getting rid of bike lanes won't solve the problem, just like repealing Jim Crowe laws did not solve racism. But it's an important first step. How can you argue that blacks and whites should be treated equally when there are signs that say blacks must get on at the back of the bus? How can you argue that cyclists have the same right to the roads and traffic lanes when there are signs and laws that say cyclists must stay in there segregated areas unless they have a very good reason to venture outside of them?
Consider how smokers are treated now that no-smoking is officially sanctioned (no smoking areas, etc.) Why is the visceral reaction to smoking so much stronger today than it was 20 years ago (we've known about smoking causing cancer for twice as long, so it's not just that)? Think about that.
Now think about the guy who thinks bike don't belong in the traffic lanes, and sees that his thoughts and feelings on the issue are officially sanctioned by the existence of bike lanes. After all, if bike lanes aren't there to get bikes out of the traffic lanes, because they outta be outta the traffic lanes, what are they for? How can you not understand that the moron will feel stronger about his beliefs, and more justified in teaching you a lesson about them, and thus more likely to do so, when he sees that they are officially sanctioned as bike lanes? Are you just ignoring everything I say about bike lanes because of how you feel about me (talk about visceral reaction)? Or do you really not see it?
But you're not listening, so why do I even bother to try to convince you? Maybe someone else is listening. Is there anybody out there? Does this make sense to anyone? Or am I all alone here?
randya
Actually, you are starting to make some sense now, Serge. But - and I think Gene would agree with me - we could still have bike lanes and the legal right to use the traffic lanes when appropriate, without a litany of these types of incidents, if proper motorist education and enforcement was a bigger part of the equation.
The city and state governments have the responsibility to perform this type of education and enforcement, if for no other reason than because it is in the interest of public safety - government's essential charge - but they have almost entirely abrogated their responsibility in this regard. Typically, when a cyclist is the victim of harassment or worse and reports the situation to the authorities, at best the cops do nothing (no crime committed, no witnesses, blah blah); at worst, they side with the motorist. 'Share the road' messages are usually so vague they are worse than meaningless - most motorists still take 'share the road' to mean GTF outta my way.
Helmet Head
Actually, you are starting to make some sense now, Serge. But - and I think Gene would agree with me - we could still have bike lanes and the legal right to use the traffic lanes when appropriate, without a litany of these types of incidents, if proper motorist education and enforcement was a bigger part of the equation.
The city and state governments have the responsibility to perform this type of education and enforcement, if for no other reason than because it is in the interest of public safety - government's essential charge - but they have almost entirely abrogated their responsibility in this regard. Typically, when a cyclist is the victim of harassment or worse and reports the situation to the authorities, at best the cops do nothing (no crime committed, no witnesses, blah blah); at worst, they side with the motorist. 'Share the road' messages are usually so vague they are worse than meaningless - most motorists still take 'share the road' to mean GTF outta my way.
But teaching that cyclists have the same rights to the road in an environment with bike lanes in which everyone knows that cyclists are supposed to ride in is ludicrous, and meaningless.
You might as well have one official standing there spouting off "same roads, same rights, same rules" while another one, standing just behind him, yelling at a cyclist, "you, over there... yeah you! GET IN THE BIKE LANE!". It's absurd. And yet this is the official party line. The reason they get away with it is because hardly anyone cares enough to try to make any sense out of it. There are those who care about getting bikes out of the way. As long as they see the bike lanes, and cyclists riding obediently in them, they don't care what the letter of the law says. Then there are the cyclist who just need a space they can call their own. They don't care why. They're like cows happily following each other to the slaughter house... dum dee dum. This contradictory policy has most people thinking they're pretty happy with it. Then there's a small number of us in the corner, going... "HELLO??? WTF is the matter with you people? This makes no sense. The emperor has no clothes. How in the heck are you going to get morons to accept cyclists on the roads when you're telling the morons they're right about cyclists needing to be out of their way and in the bike lanes? Answer: you can't do it. Can't be done." And everyone, even the "cycling advocates", give US a bad time for pointing this out! But their reaction is visceral too, since we are questioning the value of their sacred cow. It's nuts. It's completely nuts.
Az B
That happens to me frequently here in the Atlanta suburbs. As I'm approaching a stop sign or red light, I'll take the lane, stick my hand out to indicate stopping, and many times the person behind me takes offense to the fact that I'm in thier way and zooms around me only to slam on thier brakes 20-50ft down the road. Sometimes this can lead to the squeeze as the person tries to get back in the lane before the stop, but there's not enough room. I even had one guy that very calmly and rationally (to him, anyway) told me what a poor road user I was after I had to run the stop sign to keep from being squeezed when he nearly ran me into the curb about 5 feet from the stop sign as he tried to pass me.
All the bike lanes, MUPs, blinkies, and helmets in the world would not be nearly as effective as training drivers in this country and enforcing the current laws of the road. IMO.
Az
chipcom
The notion is very simple - 'everything is supposed get out of the way' It isn't just bikes. The root cause is the inherent selfishness and bad manners of human beings, not because somebody built a bike path or rode on a sidewalk. Deal with root causes, rather than tilting at windmills that are nothing by symptoms.
chipcom
All the bike lanes, MUPs, blinkies, and helmets in the world would not be nearly as effective as training drivers in this country and enforcing the current laws of the road. IMO.
+1 Unfortunately quasi-political 'advocates' prefer to spend their time on a crusade against bike lanes rather than on enforcement of current laws, which they feel is a minor issue with little return - of course the return they want are new members of the cult, not actual change.
Daily Commute
Actually, many cyclists hold similar views about cars, believing that we shouldn't be stuck behind cars. For example, many cyclists will filter forward at lights, forcing cars to pass them a second time.
I call these the two Golden Myths of cycling in traffic:
No cyclist shall ever slow down a car;
No car shall ever slow down a cyclist.
chipcom
Actually, many cyclists hold similar views about cars, believing that we shouldn't be stuck behind cars. For example, many cyclists will filter forward at lights, forcing cars to pass them a second time.
I call these the two Golden Myths of cycling in traffic:
No cyclist shall ever slow down a car;
No car shall ever slow down a cyclist.
Or perhaps the Golden Rule - thou shalt not slow down anyone, anywhere, or anytime! That seems to be the prevalent morality of our society.
LittleBigMan
The notion is very simple - 'everything is supposed get out of the way' It isn't just bikes. The root cause is the inherent selfishness and bad manners of human beings, not because somebody built a bike path or rode on a sidewalk. Deal with root causes, rather than tilting at windmills that are nothing by symptoms.
Actually, many cyclists hold similar views about cars, believing that we shouldn't be stuck behind cars. For example, many cyclists will filter forward at lights, forcing cars to pass them a second time.
I call these the two Golden Myths of cycling in traffic:
No cyclist shall ever slow down a car;
No car shall ever slow down a cyclist.
It's me.
:beer:
I-Like-To-Bike
Is there anybody out there? Does this make sense to anyone? Or am I all alone here?
You have had one devoted fellow who repeatedly sings your praises on this Forum. Of course that fellow has some gullibility and emotional issues to work out. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
Bekologist
driving in america, and the culture of automobile transit,- petrocentric transportation, and everything associated with it, breeds contempt for cycling.
And Mr. Head, you make things up- drivers by and large do not yell "Get in the bike lane" they yell
"Get out of the road!"- a very telling semantic difference.
Maybe they do yell it at Mr. Helemet, because he doesn't know how to use velotransit accomodated roadways properly- Mr. H, they have bike 101 classes available to learn how to use a bike lane!
But the drivers think bikes should be out of the way. Period.
genec
The notion is very simple - 'everything is supposed get out of the way' It isn't just bikes. The root cause is the inherent selfishness and bad manners of human beings, not because somebody built a bike path or rode on a sidewalk. Deal with root causes, rather than tilting at windmills that are nothing by symptoms.
No this I disagree with... I honestly feel that if I were in or on any other vehicle, this guy would have stayed behind me. There was no reason for him to rush to the stop... and any other vehicle slowly coasting to a stop at my 12MPH would have been an inconvience to the guy behind me, but would not have caused him to swerve out of his way, all the way into the oncoming lane, just to get around them.
This was directed at bicycles. Period... and so blatent and so perverse that it really surprised me. I was not in any danger, but it was a totally stupid move by that motorist for essentially no gain. Something totally visceral is what drove this guy.
In a certain sense, from my viewpoint, it was almost laughable, except that it happened... HH has a point.
I am not sure I buy all the anti-bike lane stuff as I still feel that on high speed multilaned roads, BL make some sort of sense.... they do eliminate the ambiguity of sharing a lane at high speeds... That I belive.
But this idea of "the Notion" really is an issue... where in the hell do they get it? And why does it come out in a simple, low key place like a 25MPH residential street, while approaching and obvious stop...
galen_52657
There are a lot of haters out there - folks who hate their job, hate there wife, hate their miserable little lives and most of all, hate themselves. And there you are in front of them on that silly damn bike looking like you may just be enjoying yourself just a little.
The haters hate that most of all. And since the hater can't change jobs (he's too dumb) can't find another woman (he's to dumb, too fat and has bad hygiene) and can't figure out how to change his miserable little existence, he is going to change something - he his going to get around you for no good reason other than he can.
Just another dumb-ass with nothing going for them.
bikebuddha
What I don't understand is how this attitude persists when a bike is traveling at or above the speed limit. I have a road with a 20 mph speed limit on my commute and it's a descent so I can easily do it and yet cars still ride on my wheel and pass me at the first opportunity.
I-Like-To-Bike
There are a lot of haters out there - folks who hate their job, hate there wife, hate their miserable little lives and most of all, hate themselves. And there you are in front of them on that silly damn bike looking like you may just be enjoying yourself just a little.
The haters hate that most of all. And since the hater can't change jobs (he's too dumb) can't find another woman (he's to dumb, too fat and has bad hygiene) and can't figure out how to change his miserable little existence, he is going to change something - he his going to get around you for no good reason other than he can.
Just another dumb-ass with nothing going for them.
Wow! How do you know all this detail about the driver who went around the OP? Perhaps you can analyze with your psychic crystal ball the reasons why the OP got so wrapped around the axle over a trivial incident that caused him no harm nor threatened him in any way. Or at least there was no threat until the OP attempted to start a confrontation with the driver after the "incident" was over.
genec
BTW just to clarify things for any of you that want a more complete picture... this occured at Bannock and Genesee in San Diego... I was east bound on Bannock... a very quiet narrow street with an elementary school, a community center and a park, very near where this happened. There are also speed bumps on the road near the school.
Here is the google satellite pic: http://maps.google.com/?ll=32.832911,-117.194788&spn=0.00316,0.004565&t=k&om=1
This all occured right in less than the short distance shown by the large grassy area of the park. Notice all the parked vehicles along both sides... especially that last one just before the intersection. These prompt me to ride out about 5 feet from the cars... and in this case I was going straight through, so I was left of the center of the lane.
And in case clothing or bike type might also be considered... There was no lycra involved. I was wearing a blue sweatshirt, and khaki colored shorts... no helmet, and riding a fat tire heavy Murry bike... like something from Wally World. (actually a garage sale bike... ) I live just 2 blocks from this corner... this is my neighborhood.
It was about 7:10 at night, there was about 20 minutes of good light available. The sun was at my back and made the entire scene, as we moved from west to east, quite visible
Helmet Head
The notion is very simple - 'everything is supposed get out of the way' It isn't just bikes. The root cause is the inherent selfishness and bad manners of human beings, not because somebody built a bike path or rode on a sidewalk. Deal with root causes, rather than tilting at windmills that are nothing by symptoms.
As Gene pointed out, it's not that simple. Motorists are generally much more accepting of other vehicles that get in their way, for example. What's the difference? Whether the delay is considered "reasonable" in their minds. And, so, for us, the root problem is that they believe bicyclists in the traffic lane is not reasonable. And with bike lanes, and our acceptance and even support for them, we sanction that belief.
genec
Wow! How do you know all this detail about the driver who went around the OP? Perhaps you can analyze with your psychic crystal ball the reasons why the OP got so wrapped around the axle over a trivial incident that caused him no harm nor threatened him in any way. Or at least there was no threat until the OP attempted to start a confrontation with the driver after the "inciden"t was over.
You are way off base... which is understandable since you were not there.
The driver make an incredibly stupid move for no gain what so ever... he could not go anywhere... what then was his motivation? Why would he go out of his way to make this move that involved him revving his engine, accelerating suddenly, moving over to the other lane (facing potential traffic that could come around the corner at any second) to get around me to come to an obvious stop just feet away?
The driver could have, with much less effort, just taken his foot off of the gas and coasted to the same stop he was going to make anyway... so much less effort than going through all the awkward gyrations he made to get around me... for no reason what so ever.
Sure I was not hurt, and this happened at relatively low speeds, and no I did not feel threatened...
But the fact remains... the driver was incredibly compelled to make such a stupid move for some reason... and gaining position on the road was not the reason.
Why did I get all wrapped up over it... because it was such an outlandish display of driver going berserk over nothing. Yet for some reason, he was compelled to do it. Explain that one to me and then you might have something worth reading about.
billh
The "Notion" exists… I know what it is and I think I can explain it. I don’t believe HH has even properly defined the "Notion."
It comes down to this: “Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”
That’s it.
If that is . . . The Notion, then I'm a believer. The question is, what do we do about it? Become a velorutionary with an "in your face attitude", provoking conflict? Or adopt a peaceful resistance attitude, being assertive but not confrontational. You may see BL as "sanctioning" and evil belief system, while others see it as reducing friction until education can have its effect.
I-Like-To-Bike
Why did I get all wrapped up over it... because it was such an outlandish display of driver going berserk over nothing. Yet for some reason, he was compelled to do it. Explain that one to me and then you might have something worth reading about.
I recommend that you never venture to the East Coast (and maybe other less friendly places that you are apparantly used to). In Philadelphia motorists pull that stunt ALL THE TIME if there is ANYTHING on wheelsin front of them. Wacky passing to gain a car length before the next traffic light, often with a pseudo drag racing jump start from the turning lane or parking zone and sudden swerve to gain "position",is de rigueur.
yes
The revved engine pass, acceleration, and hard braking at stop light is completely irrational. However, it is also very common, proving that many drivers are acting out of emotion rather than thought.
I like the idea mentioned above. Take down license plate number and take pictures if possible. A web site where you upload pictures, plate #s, and details of offense would be great. The site should be searchable by location, plate #, etc.
Laika
But teaching that cyclists have the same rights to the road in an environment with bike lanes in which everyone knows that cyclists are supposed to ride in is ludicrous, and meaningless.
I beg to differ. HOV lanes are an example of a parallel accomodation which accomplish their intended purpose w/o massive, crippling cognitive dissonace for all involved. HOV lanes are a separate roadway accomodation which operators of certain kinds of vehicles may choose to use... but the operators are not in any way obligated to do so. So drivers of vehicles which qualify to use the HOV lanes do so when it makes sense for them to do so, and do not do so when the advantage to using them is negligible.
And somehow, they manage to do it without losing face in front of all the other alpha dogs...
chipcom
As Gene pointed out, it's not that simple.
No, actually it is that simple out here in the real world - if you and others wish to overcomplicate it in your paranoid minds, that sounds like a personal problem.
To Gene - spend some time doing errands with some of the Amish folk around here and tell me how 'tolerant' drivers are. Hell, drivers ain't even tolerant of other drivers.
galen_52657
Wow! How do you know all this detail about the driver who went around the OP? Perhaps you can analyze with your psychic crystal ball the reasons why the OP got so wrapped around the axle over a trivial incident that caused him no harm nor threatened him in any way. Or at least there was no threat until the OP attempted to start a confrontation with the driver after the "incident" was over.
Maybe you should change your handle form "I like to bike" to "I like to argue" or even "I like to be an arse" or how about "I am an arse"...yeah that's you all over
chipcom
I recommend that you never venture to the East Coast (and maybe other less friendly places that you are apparantly used to). In Philadelphia motorists pull that stunt ALL THE TIME if there is ANYTHING on wheelsin front of them. Wacky passing to gain a car length before the next traffic light, often with a pseudo drag racing jump start from the turning lane or parking zone and sudden swerve to gain "position",is de rigueur.
+1
LittleBigMan
The revved engine pass, acceleration, and hard braking at stop light is completely irrational. However, it is also very common, proving that many drivers are acting out of emotion rather than thought.
They might get to the light sooner, but once they step out of their car, I walk faster all day long. :D
chipcom
Maybe you should change your handle form "I like to bike" to "I like to argue" or even "I like to be an arse" or how about "I am an arse"...yeah that's you all over
And you...and I...are utter freakin angels, are we?
WalterMitty
The revved engine pass, acceleration, and hard braking at stop light is completely irrational. However, it is also very common, proving that many drivers are acting out of emotion rather than thought.
I like the idea mentioned above. Take down license plate number and take pictures if possible. A web site where you upload pictures, plate #s, and details of offense would be great. The site should be searchable by location, plate #, etc.
Here's one:
http://roadragers.com/report-bad-drivers.php
sbhikes
I think you guys have a harder time of it because you are men.
Honestly, I do not experience a "get out of the way" mentality very much at all. However, on the same exact route my boyfriend does.
There have been a couple of times when I've been mistaken for a man (such as while riding a motorcycle with a big jacket and helmet) and the invective and rage I've had to experience is astonishing. I do not experience this normally to any degree. If anything, motorists are more often protective of me, offering to block the path of others for me, allowing me to go at stop signs when it's not technically my turn, making a huge path around me and rarely ever close-passing or buzzing me.
I think it's a male thing.
So before you ascribe some global, sweeping theory like "the Notion", please stop and decide if there is a gender bias in there somewhere. I suspect that there is. Possibly a homophobic one as well.
noisebeam
Here is my example from yesterday:
I was riding at 25.7mph in a 25mph residential zone during an evening fun ride. I was in full center of lane. Car behind me approaches fast and starts honking. I ignore. We stop at next light, me in LT lane, him going straight and I say to driver "Whats your problem?" He says I was in his way. I say there was no safe place for me to move right (it would have put me in DZ) and anyway I was going speed limit. He then goes on that he is allowed to go 35mph and that I have no right to ride on the road and block his way and should get on the sidewalk. Light turned green then before I really went off on him.
Would another motorist have honked at at a car going 25mph in a 25mph zone? I very much doubt it.
Al
noisebeam
passing to gain a car length before the next traffic light, often with a pseudo drag racing jump start from the turning lane or parking zone and sudden swerve to gain "position",is de rigueur.
Its pretty much the way of driving here. When I spend any time behind a windshield (sorry Bek, but I do) the motorist behavior toward other motorists is astounding in its agressiveness and stupidity. There are at least 10% of of motorist who race and jockey to get lead position at every red light, swerving accoss multiple lanes from left to right and back just to get 1-2 car lengths.
I sometimes wish I had that video camera I have on my bike, instead on my car hood - the examples I see from my car are far crazier than anything I have ever shown here.
Al
Roughstuff
Here is my example from yesterday:
I was riding at 25.7mph in a 25mph residential zone during an evening fun ride.
Al
Noisebeam you were speeding! Bad boy! :)
I think part of it is many drivers think of going 15 mph over the speed limit as a matter of policy. As I have said before, one of the GREAT ways to make sure drivers respect the rules of the road and show more respect for cyclists, is to do so when YOU are driving a car. Our road here has a speed limit of 40 in most places and less near schools and curves (it is rural residential). I NEVER go over 40 mph on this road, and in fact I LOVE it when people get pissed off in a line behind me, especially the future Morons of America from the local high school on their way home after 'class. '
roughstuff
genec
Homophobic? Ah, Diane, I think you're reaching there.
Male oriented top dawg behaviour I might believe. Certainly there was a real lack of critical thinking involved.
chipcom
Would another motorist have honked at at a car going 25mph in a 25mph zone? I very much doubt it.
Happens every day here...and I remember it being common in Phoenix too. Drivers don't care what you are riding or driving, what the speed limit is or what anyone else's rights are, they just plain hate anything 'in their way'.
chipcom
Noisebeam you were speeding! Bad boy! :)
I think part of it is many drivers think of going 15 mph over the speed limit as a matter of policy. As I have said before, one of the GREAT ways to make sure drivers respect the rules of the road and show more respect for cyclists, is to do so when YOU are driving a car. Our road here has a speed limit of 40 in most places and less near schools and curves (it is rural residential). I NEVER go over 40 mph on this road, and in fact I LOVE it when people get pissed off in a line behind me, especially the future Morons of America from the local high school on their way home after 'class. '
After my ride back to the truck last night I decided to take the long way home, on the parkway and back roads rather than the turnpike. I got behind a couple of roadies on a winding, hilly section. The parkway is just two narrow lanes, not enough room for sharing, so I just hung back behind them until I saw a safe opportunity to pass. I was glad I did when one of them got all wobbly trying to climb a steep little hill. But of course the line of cars behind me was not happy at all. I doubt most of them even knew there were bicycles ahead of me, they just knew that 'something' was keeping them from going their usual 50 in a 30.
LittleBigMan
When you first start riding your bike to work is when people come straight out with what they really think about how "...bikes don't belong on the road with cars," "...it's too dangerous," "...you'll get run over," etc. It's only after they realize you're actually not going to listen to reason and quit this crazy notion of bicycle transportation that they adjust their tone, but they still believe you're crazy.
:D
genec
So chipcom... the problem as you see it is the attitude of the motorists. What, if anything, can be done? Certainly this is only going to continue to escalate... people are going to driving 50MPH on 25MPH roads and who knows what on 50MPH roads... It's gonna look like Mad Max's world out there.
I know that speedbumps had just been added to that road I was on just last year... folks were already pushing the 25MPH speed limit in that school zone.
genec
When you first start riding your bike to work is when people come straight out with what they really think about how "...bikes don't belong on the road with cars," "...it's too dangerous," "...you'll get run over," etc. It's only after they realize you're actually not going to listen to reason and quit this crazy notion of bicycle transportation that they adjust their tone, but they still believe you're crazy.
:D
I recently posted the bike laws of California outside of my cube at work... it has prompted some interesting conversations.
Laika
Would another motorist have honked at at a car going 25mph in a 25mph zone? I very much doubt it.
You should come with me on one of my infrequent drives sometime, Al. You'd be amazed how few people actually know the speed limit in NYC is 30mph, and how very many of them become extremely angry when they're behind someone who respects the limit, and cyclists' lane space, and pedestrians.
My practice of holding the limit strictly on city streets has given my a little insight into the "notion" discussed here, in a pop psychology kind of way. I think that people don't look far ahead when they drive, both in terms of psycology and geography. That is to say, the ten to fifteen feet of pavement immediately in front of them is all they see or care about. I'd hazard a guess that in NY at least, that this happens b/c that's about the amount of space in front of you that you are concerned with as you walk. I found once I began to drive more closely to posted limits and widened my horizons a few hundred yard, I was better prepared for the road ahead, and less apt to speed, b/c traffic controls here in NYC are pretty good at evening out end results for drivers, and it became obvious to me after a while that slow, safe acceleration and gradual braking go the same results over the long run as speeding in fits and starts. If most people thought about what the gains would be from their driving style, traffic calming would be a naturally occurring phenomenon... but most people can't (or won't) look beyond the tail-light, or blinkie, of the vehicle ahead of them.
Roughstuff
After my ride back to the truck last night...... But of course the line of cars behind me was not happy at all. I doubt most of them even knew there were bicycles ahead of me, they just knew that 'something' was keeping them from going their usual 50 in a 30.
This happens to me alot as well, since I will slow down and wait rather than pass dangerously or edge into a lane with an oncoming car. I think its important to give em a friendly beep and thumbs up when I pass. It lets both the cyclists and other motorists know that cyclists have friends on the road.
roughstuff
noisebeam
Noisebeam you were speeding! Bad boy! :)
I think part of it is many drivers think of going 15 mph over the speed limit as a matter of policy. As I have said before, one of the GREAT ways to make sure drivers respect the rules of the road and show more respect for cyclists, is to do so when YOU are driving a car. Our road here has a speed limit of 40 in most places and less near schools and curves (it is rural residential). I NEVER go over 40 mph on this road, and in fact I LOVE it when people get pissed off in a line behind me, especially the future Morons of America from the local high school on their way home after 'class. '
Yes I was.
I agree about not speeding at all when in car. I always drive the speed limit or under everywhere. It does set a great example.
As to 15mph over being the norm... Actually it has been said publicly over and over again by law enforcement here (in the papers, on TV) that drivers will not get cited for up to 11mph over the speed limit. Drivers treat SL+11 as the speed one should travel.
Al
noisebeam
My practice of holding the limit strictly on city streets has given my a little insight into the "notion" discussed here, in a pop psychology kind of way.
...and it became obvious to me after a while that slow, safe acceleration and gradual braking go the same results over the long run as speeding in fits and starts. If most people thought about what the gains would be from their driving style, traffic calming would be a naturally occurring phenomenon... but most people can't (or won't) look beyond the tail-light, or blinkie, of the vehicle ahead of them.
I told a story a few days ago at being close tailgated, honked at agressively passed while driving my car 20mph in a 25mph zone. So yeah, I know it happens to other slower moving vehicles, not just bicycles.
Your point on going steady is so true. Same effect here where the speed limits are 45mph. When I used to drive a lot more and didn't speed (or jackrabbit start) I always got passed by, then caught up to the speeders at nearly every light, sometimes to absurd effect, even passing them again as I stayed a steady speed in the right most lane and the aggessive drivers fought over who was first in the left two lanes which were always more backed up by folks who were in a hurry.
There is no practical difference in a city (or suburb) in terms of getting somewhere quicker by speeding. As any sub/urban cyclist who has a cyclo computer knows what affects ones average speed the greatest is not how fast one goes between lights, but the stops.
Al
bluebottle1
I think part of it is many drivers think of going 15 mph over the speed limit as a matter of policy.
I think you nailed it right there. I think that a lot of motorists consider it their right to go as fast as they can without actually causing an accident. Every time they pass through an area at 15-20 mph above the speed limit with no consequence, it reinforces this view. I couldn't even tell you the number of times I have been tailgated when I was driving right at the speed limit.
As for the bike lane issues raised on this thread, I can certainly see HH's view. I think the presence of bike lanes can and does tend to "ghetto-ize" cyclists. Moreover, in my neighborhood, the bike lanes are a joke. They are simply stripes painted on the road and fill up with all the broken glass and other crap that gets swept to the roadside by automotive traffic. Far from encouraging cycling, I think they absolutely prevent it. Motorists see the bike lanes and assume that is where cyclists should be riding. (And, yes, I realize I'm generalizing here, but I do have some basis in my own experience for it.) Unfortunately, no cyclist in his right mind would even attempt it. He'd be changing out flats every other block.
I wish I knew a solution to all this. The only thing I can think of is more rigorous traffic enforcement, with special regard to speed limits and ticketing unsafe lane changes and some much stiffer penalties for flagrant lawbreaking. I'd love to be able to say that would bring about changes in attitudes--which is really the only thing that will effect true change. Still, there is at least some truth to the phrase, "when you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will surely follow." It could make at least some difference.
timmhaan
I told a story a few days ago at being close tailgated, honked at agressively passed while driving my car 20mph in a 25mph zone. So yeah, I know it happens to other slower moving vehicles, not just bicycles.
Al
yep. although cyclist get more than enough harassment - everyone else on the road does too. i've been in just as many altercations with motorists while i was driving as when i'm riding. it really doesn't matter what you're doing - if someone is in a rush or angry, they'll let you know one way or the other. the road can be an incredibly hostile place sometimes.