Advocacy & Safety - Cyclist hit, then killed in Austin...

And the debate of who should be on the roads rages.

Noon ride yesterday, tough intersection, cyclist apparently clipped by a towed trailer, falls, and then is run over by the next car. AND THE CAR DOESN'T STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Story (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/04/18fatal.html)

Debate (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/talk/2006/04/18/is_it_safe_to_bike_on_loop_360.html)

From the "debate" section:
But put a person trying to ride a bycicle on that road and they don’t just endager their life but mine too! And don’t tell me that we are suppose to share the road. I don’t see the majority of byciclists sharing the same laws; stop signs, turn signals, speed limits… You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!

Sigh...

I see that "Its not safe" is once again a swell driver codeword for 'Get off my road you two-wheeled scumbag'.

You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!
Game, set, match.

As to motorist not stopping...

I was in a solo low speed parking lot access road crash that left me in the middle 15mph lane. About 4-5 immediately following cars passed me and not one stopped or asked if I was OK even though at some of them must have witnessed me go over. One even ran over my bike computer that was only a couple feet from me.

While a friend who rides the bus was waiting at stop, a metally challenged kid tripped on a speed bump in the road and fell and while not hurt was screaming and unable to move. My friend said in the time he was running to help he counted 7 cars that swerved into adjacent lane so as not to run her over, but none slowed, let alone stopped to help.

Same friend saw a cyclist crash into rear of bus and similar situation occured. Not one of several passing drivers stopped, but instead swerved around cyclist laying in road to left of bus.

These above are only motorist indifference. But obviously even more troubling is the motorist who is directly involved in accident who doesn't stop.

Al

You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!
Game, set, match.And if every lane is a bike lane, you still want them to slow down and move out of your way into oncoming traffic.

As to motorist not stopping...

This is not specific to cycling but to our "I'd help, but..." society. Like the person mugged while others walk by.

Last night on the news they reported that the car behind the car that ran over the cyclist saw the car bounce like it was going over a speedbump and only after that car cleared the driver saw it was the cyclist in the road. Gruesome.

This area is extremely challenging from a cycling standpoint. When I need to cross these exits I will stop and unclip to wait for a clearing if I have any doubts...or I will take the off ramp but that has it's own risks as this cyclist tragically discovered.

As a former Austinite, I have to say, despite the number of people who bike in Austin, there is still a lot of hostility from drivers. I would frequently get yelled at from passing cars -- sometimes catcalls, and sometimes insults (i.e. "get off the road"). That rarely happened in other cities I've biked. Maybe some of it can be attributed to general ten-gallon Texas ribaldry, but I think it largely stems from the "car is king" mentality in the state. It's no accident that Texas roads and highways are pristinely maintained while other services like public transit languish.

I'm not surprised at the anti-bike comments on the Statesman site. The attitude seems to be "They don't belong, run 'em over."

That being said, I miss the hell out of Austin. After a blistering summer day, heading down to Barton Springs for the free swim before closing time ... I'm beginning to tear up a little. :)

I bothered to google loop360 and eventually found several pictures.

The road has a shoulder wider than 99% of the bike lanes I've seen and wider than the 2 lanes in many places. Now this does not mean it doesn't have some nasty sections. But on the whole it looks like a pretty nice and safe ride. At least as far as the road is concerend.

That makes THREE pre-MS150 Houston-Austin cycling deaths that have taken place in 2006.

THREE !!!

The one south of Houston really sounded like cyclist error.
The second one in Chappell Hill was definitely driver negligence.
This one, who knows yet?

Read the debate. WOW.

So if any bicyclist runs a stop sign that's a reason to ban them.

But cars breaking every rule in the book, incessantly, are not criticized.

I welcome $5 gas.

You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!
Game, set, match.

Hardly, you forgot to include:

"And don’t tell me that we are suppose to share the road. I don’t see the majority of byciclists sharing the same laws; stop signs, turn signals, speed limits…"

It ain't the bike lanes, it's the fact that we don't obey the laws that causes drivers not to respect our right to the road...as many of us have pointed out repeatedly to you...but I guess your anti-bike lane jihad has to rely on selective quoting when your position isn't supported by mere facts.

"And don’t tell me that we are suppose to share the road. I don’t see the majority of bicyclists sharing the same laws; stop signs, turn signals, speed limits…"
This is a rhetorical red herring and indicative of the double standard most motorists want to apply to bicyclists: wherein motorists believe that all cyclists must obey all traffic laws before any cyclist has credibility; whereas motorists should continue to be free to speed, run lights, fail to signal, etc., etc.

Which group breaks more traffic laws, more egregiously, with more serious consequences, bicyclists or motorists?

From the "debate" section:
But put a person trying to ride a bycicle on that road and they don’t just endager their life but mine too! And don’t tell me that we are suppose to share the road. I don’t see the majority of byciclists sharing the same laws; stop signs, turn signals, speed limits… You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!

Sigh...
Pffft, and when motorists kill bicyclists they definitely aren't subjected to proper punishment, are they. Its always an "accident".

This is a rhetorical red herring and indicative of the double standard most motorists want to apply to bicyclists: wherein motorists believe that all cyclists must obey all traffic laws before any cyclist has credibility; whereas motorists should continue to be free to speed, run lights, fail to signal, etc., etc.

Which group breaks more traffic laws, more egregiously, with more serious consequences, bicyclists or motorists?

On a per capita basis cyclists by a landslide. I don't ever recall seeing a car driving down the street the wrong way. Blowing a stop sign is again much rarer for cars that bikes. If you want to include failure to signal better include failure to signal where braking for bikes.

It ain't the bike lanes, it's the fact that we don't obey the laws that causes drivers not to respect our right to the road...as many of us have pointed out repeatedly to you...but I guess your anti-bike lane jihad has to rely on selective quoting when your position isn't supported by mere facts.
Go jump in a lake chipcom. Anyone who actually reads my posts without pre-discounting them would know that cyclists disobeying the law being a factor in why we are disrespected is a huge theme of mine, and not one anyone has ever needed to explain to me on BF. :rolleyes:

It is the bike lanes, and it is our behavior, and it all reinforces The Notion.

Stop wasting time and space here. Yes, every now and then you make a pithy comment, but even Stevie Wonder could hit the bullseye once in a while if he took enough shots.

No bike lanes up here so we get off the road or on the sidewalk. Did anyone catch the show where they caught drivers passing a school bus with stop sign out, one was a teacher and another principal. I liked the one with the taxi driver falling asleep and crashing into the telephone pole, no seat belt and he landed in the back seats amazingly with no injuries.

This is a rhetorical red herring and indicative of the double standard most motorists want to apply to bicyclists: wherein motorists believe that all cyclists must obey all traffic laws before any cyclist has credibility; whereas motorists should continue to be free to speed, run lights, fail to signal, etc., etc.

Which group breaks more traffic laws, more egregiously, with more serious consequences, bicyclists or motorists?

Well based on the 45,000 annual deaths of folks riding in cars, AND the need for red light cameras, I would have to say that motorists are far far more guilty than cyclists of committing crimes of "more serious consequences."

As a cyclist, I can only ask that perhaps those motorists should "heal thy self" first, before pointing accusing fingers.

On a per capita basis cyclists by a landslide. I don't ever recall seeing a car driving down the street the wrong way. Blowing a stop sign is again much rarer for cars that bikes. If you want to include failure to signal better include failure to signal where braking for bikes.

Hmmm, never heard of a "california stop," which is "blowing the stop sign."

And what about red light cameras... does your area have these? They are used in San Diego because so many motorists run the lights.

Maybe per capita, cyclists are worse, but by total volume... motorists have us beat hands down.

BTW watched a guy drive right back up a freeway off ramp just a few weeks ago... couldn't believe it myself.

And what about red light cameras... does your area have these? They are used in San Diego because so many motorists run the lights.
Yawn. There is HUGE difference between the red light runner who "stretch the green", which is what these cameras primarily are designed to catch, and the flagrant ride light running that cyclists often do.

The blatant blowing of red lights and stop signs is much more common among cyclists than motorists.

You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!
Game, set, match.

Combine that quote with the comment about having to drive no slower than ten mph under the speed limit on the road.

Hmmm, never heard of a "california stop," which is "blowing the stop sign."
.

I have rolled through a stop sign after slowing down, because a car was next to me, and did a California Stop. I beat the car to the intersection, and it beat me to the other side. The "bump & go" that cars do at stop signs is actually faster than a cyclist rolling through at 10 mph.

We do run red lights as much as Pedestrians... Education is the key and more radar/video surveillance.

I still remember when they test tried mobile radar/video in school zones, too many people were getting ticketed and the complaint was overwelming it was dropped. It was set 5 mph above the speedlimit in a school zone.

We don't have bike lanes up here but we do have "bike route" sign on the sidewalk which directs you to MUP which might give the wrong impression to the driving public.

My heart goes out to the bicyclist, their family and friends affected by this tragedy.

This thread is about a bicyclist that died, Mr. Head, and you want to dismiss this accident because of velo transit somewhere in the world causing "notions" against bicyclists?

its NOT all about velotransit, Mr. HEAD. you are painting a lot of stripes to connect the dots in this argument.

Do you know ANYTHING about New Urbanism, or are you firmly rooted in obsolete, outdated notions of civic planning for livable communities?

A little more about this cyclist, Gay Simmons, from some folks that belong to the Yahoo Group for the Hill Country Ride for AIDS that takes place in a couple weeks:

"Riders,

Gay Simmons, killed yesterday in a collision with 2 cars while riding on Loop 360 was not a HCRA rider, but was a teammate of mine on St. David's Team for the MS150 ride scheduled for this coming Saturday.

Like all of us Gay was working to raise money to deal with a crippling disease. She is one of us.

Please join me in praying for Gay and her family.

Tom


and

Cycling friends,

I heard back from the VP of HR at my prior company regarding how we can best celebrate Gay's life.

First, Gay was planning to ride in the MS150 this upcoming weekend (the race she was training for when she was killed.) Jon Zieve (a stellar cyclist, colleague, and executive at the same company Gay worked for) will be riding the MS150 in her honor and wearing a black arm band. People wishing to make a donation sponsoring Jon’s ride can do so at the following web-site: http://ms150.org/ms150/donate/donate.cfm?id=187604.

Second, as you know, there will be a Ride of Silence on May 17th in Austin to honor cyclists that have been injured or killed. The ride starts at 6:45 at Lou Neff road in Zilker Park. Further information can be found at http://www.rideofsilence.org/main.php.

Thank you for your outreach. Be careful out there.

This thread is about a bicyclist that died, Mr. Head, and you want to dismiss this accident because of velo transit somewhere in the world causing "notions" against bicyclists?
I mean no disrespect, and I posted nothing that would indicate to anyone who knows how to read that I want dismiss this accident for any reason, muchless because of bike lanes. I hope you know how to ride your bike better than you know how to read, Beck.

The OP also brought attention to the debate about cycling on the road where the cyclist was killed, then someone else posted a quote from that debate, and I commented on that, which turned into somewhat of a discussion.

Go jump in a lake chipcom. Anyone who actually reads my posts without pre-discounting them would know that cyclists disobeying the law being a factor in why we are disrespected is a huge theme of mine, and not one anyone has ever needed to explain to me on BF. :rolleyes:

It is the bike lanes, and it is our behavior, and it all reinforces The Notion.

Stop wasting time and space here. Yes, every now and then you make a pithy comment, but even Stevie Wonder could hit the bullseye once in a while if he took enough shots.

Typical response from you everytime I destroy one of your wacky theories or point out how dishonest you are in trying to support your jihad. I love your responses like the one above...shows your stripes to the world.

I mean no disrespect, and I posted nothing that would indicate to anyone who knows how to read that I want dismiss this accident for any reason, muchless because of bike lanes.

Oh please! MOST of your posts serve to discount cyclist deaths, blame dead cyclists for their own deaths, or manipulate cyclist deaths to serve your own purposes even though circumstances rarely fit them. You're a vulture, and I believe you're dangerous; I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that your posts are being used in court in defense of drivers who have killed cyclists: "See? Even cycling "experts" agree that she was responsible for her own death! After all, wasn't she seen in a bike lane just two days earlier?"

You want me to slow down and move out of your way…into on coming traffic. Ride your bike where their are bike lanes!
Game, set, match.

Yeah, she should have been out in the lane where they can SEE her . . . while plummeting down the hwy at 60 mph . . . before they hit her.

This is a rhetorical red herring and indicative of the double standard most motorists want to apply to bicyclists: wherein motorists believe that all cyclists must obey all traffic laws before any cyclist has credibility; whereas motorists should continue to be free to speed, run lights, fail to signal, etc., etc.

Which group breaks more traffic laws, more egregiously, with more serious consequences, bicyclists or motorists?

I agree there is a double standard. It sucks, it isn't fair, but it is what it is. In a perfect world we would deal in facts only, but unfortunately here in the real world perception is taken as fact. We are perceived by motorists as rude, arrogant jerks who have no respect for the law or the motorists. We can rail on about the unfairness of it all, double standards and utopian ideals, but if we want something to actually change we have to deal with the perceptions. How many more cyclists have to die before 'advocates' get a clue and start dealing with the realities of the world and root causes of the issues that affect us, rather than promoting their ivory-tower theories designed to deal with symptoms of the root causes?

Welcome back, Chipcom!

:)

By Bob

April 18, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

Well, I use to ride a bike everywhere. The reason I stopped wasn’t because I felt it was unsafe…..because it was always unsafe. The reason I stopped riding a bike is because I got my driver license. Now, I can go to all the same places but just faster! Plus, when I get there I’m not sweating like a pig!!! It really worked out good for me that way!!! Thanks and Good Luck!

Haha good one...

It ain't the bike lanes, it's the fact that we don't obey the laws that causes drivers not to respect our right to the road...as many of us have pointed out repeatedly to you...but I guess your anti-bike lane jihad has to rely on selective quoting when your position isn't supported by mere facts.

Go jump in a lake chipcom. Anyone who actually reads my posts without pre-discounting them would know that cyclists disobeying the law being a factor in why we are disrespected is a huge theme of mine, and not one anyone has ever needed to explain to me on BF. :rolleyes:

It is the bike lanes, and it is our behavior, and it all reinforces The Notion.

Stop wasting time and space here. Yes, every now and then you make a pithy comment, but even Stevie Wonder could hit the bullseye once in a while if he took enough shots.

Typical response from you everytime I destroy one of your wacky theories or point out how dishonest you are in trying to support your jihad. I love your responses like the one above...shows your stripes to the world.
Yes, it does show my stripes, and I stand by them.

Let's look at this all in context. Now, what "wacky theory or point" of mine do you think you destroyed?

All you "destroyed" was your own strawman theory that bike lanes alone cause drivers not to respect our right to the road. Good job destroying something I never wrote, thought, or implied. You're a genius, right up there with Beck. :rolleyes:

I repeat my actual position: It is the bike lanes, AND it is also our behavior; it ALL reinforces The Notion.

If we want to reduce the prevalance of The Notion in our society, then we need to change the official message from sanctioning The Notion (e.g., with bike lanes) to addressing it (PSAs, "cyclists use full lane" signs, improved driver education, cyclist education in the schools, etc., etc.).

99% of car drivers break traffic laws daily--they speed. They are driving 3500 lb vehicles.

Many cyclists run stop signs on their 25 pould bikes. Does it compare? Speed kills. Cyclists running stop signs at 10 mph don't.

Yes, it does show my stripes, and I stand by them.

Let's look at this all in context. Now, what "wacky theory or point" of mine do you think you destroyed?

All you "destroyed" was your own strawman theory that bike lanes alone cause drivers not to respect our right to the road. Good job destroying something I never wrote, thought, or implied. You're a genius, right up there with Beck. :rolleyes:

I repeat my actual position: It is the bike lanes, AND it is also our behavior; it ALL reinforces The Notion.

If we want to reduce the prevalance of The Notion in our society, then we need to change the official message from sanctioning The Notion (e.g., with bike lanes) to addressing it (PSAs, "cyclists use full lane" signs, improved driver education, cyclist education in the schools, etc., etc.).

For the upteenth time - your 'Notion' is fantasy. The true notion, to anyone with half a brain and a little bit of driving experience outside their little cow town, is that 'NOTHING SHOULD GET IN MY WAY OR SLOW ME DOWN WHILE I AM DRIVING'. You keep trying to tie this problem to only bicycles, yet every other slow moving vehicle and even peds are victims as well. My best advice, get yer head outta yer okole, take a look at the real world and quit trying to make us into some kind of minority group that needs special protection from some benefactor...or cult. While you pontificate about bike lanes, notions and wacky theories, cyclists continue to be killed and injured because so-called advocates are chasing windmills (or book deals), ignoring root causes.

The true notion, to anyone with half a brain and a little bit of driving experience outside their little cow town, is that 'NOTHING SHOULD GET IN MY WAY OR SLOW ME DOWN WHILE I AM DRIVING'. .+1

Stop wasting time and space here.Coming from the guy who is guaranteed by almost everybody here to turn every thread, regardless of its original topic, into a discussion of his favorite topic, every single time.

For the upteenth time - your 'Notion' is fantasy. The true notion, to anyone with half a brain and a little bit of driving experience outside their little cow town, is that 'NOTHING SHOULD GET IN MY WAY OR SLOW ME DOWN WHILE I AM DRIVING'. You keep trying to tie this problem to only bicycles, yet every other slow moving vehicle and even peds are victims as well. My best advice, get yer head outta yer okole, take a look at the real world and quit trying to make us into some kind of minority group that needs special protection from some benefactor...or cult. While you pontificate about bike lanes, notions and wacky theories, cyclists continue to be killed and injured because so-called advocates are chasing windmills (or book deals), ignoring root causes.
The truth is Chipcom, you've been singing this boring song over and over, several of us have addressed it, and you have not responded to the points made. I'm not going to repeat them, because, based on previous behavior, you will probably just stick your head back in the sand and ignore them. But if you actually have half the brain you claim to have, you can dig them up yourself and still respond to them.

The truth is Chipcom, you've been singing this boring song over and over, several of us have addressed it, and you have not responded to the points made. I'm not going to repeat them, because, based on previous behavior, you will probably just stick your head back in the sand and ignore them. But if you actually have half the brain you claim to have, you can dig them up yourself and still respond to them.

Actually I think I should go back and find all the times that answers such as this are your MO when you are trying to advance a wacky theory that doesn't hold water and get caught at it. You'll use anything and any means, honest or dishonest, to promote your anti-bike lane jihad and brand of VC. Pisses you off to be pwned by a guy with half a brain, don't it?
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

I'm not from the Austin area so let me know if I'm wrong here but I just looked at the intersection in question on Google Maps and it appears to be a shoulder/bike lane that crosses a freeway-style off-ramp unprotected. those are bad news! a stretch of University Boulevard in College Park has such an obstacle also, a shoulder/bike lane that crosses freeway-style on and off ramps going onto Route 1. I rode that stretch once and decided never again... crossing those on-ramps fighting for right-of-way with speeding traffic that doesn't expect anything (ped or cyclist) to be crossing there is just too dangerous. taking the lane on that road isn't really a feasible option either because the average traffic speed is 55-60MPH.

fortunately, I have the luxury of avoiding this strech by using an alternate "scenic" route involving paths, sidestreets, and slower roads, which I gladly take everytime even though it's longer and more meandering.

unfortunately, a quick glance at the map of the area where the accident occured shows that cyclists there don't really have that option if they want to go any kind of distance and not just ride around the neighborhood... again, I'm not from that area so correct me if I'm wrong here.

of course none of this excuses the heartless actions of the motorists involved in the accident. hitting someone and then speeding away is just messed up beyond words.