New perspectives

[LittleBigMan]

With all the arguing going on in Advocacy and Safety, a newcomer might ask, "What's all the disagreement about?" At first glance, one sees experienced cyclists arguing endlessly and reads on to see what the deal is...for a while.

Has anyone here changed their minds after being "corrected?" Have any newcomers been "enlightened?"

I see a lot more friendships developing around positive inspiration and simple shared experience outside the Advocacy and Safety forum. Inside, it's often a boiling cauldron of ill-feelings toward one another.

I'm not sure anything's being solved at all, no enlightenment, no inspiration.

[genec]

Think of it as healthy debating... while whole concepts are not likely to be tossed, cyclists can pick up ideas that they can use to modify their riding habits...

[Helmet Head]

With all the arguing going on in Advocacy and Safety, a newcomer might ask, "What's all the disagreement about?" At first glance, one sees experienced cyclists arguing endlessly and reads on to see what the deal is...for a while.

Has anyone here changed their minds after being "corrected?" Have any newcomers been "enlightened?"

I see a lot more friendships developing around positive inspiration and simple shared experience outside the Advocacy and Safety forum. Inside, it's often a boiling cauldron of ill-feelings toward one another.

I'm not sure anything's being solved at all, no enlightenment, no inspiration.
That was my impression too. But then several A&S polls indicated that quite a few people felt they were learning stuff here. So I press on. It's mostly a thankless journey, however.

[huhenio]

Now I wear a helmet ALWAYS

[jakub.ner]

Think of it as healthy debating... while whole concepts are not likely to be tossed, cyclists can pick up ideas that they can use to modify their riding habits...

I agree. I've learned a lot from this particular forum about riding. I now only ride where I'm allowed: be it street or path. Don't overtake stopped cars on the right, etc.. Don't behave like a moron. Very useful debates.

[jakub.ner]

Now I wear a helmet ALWAYS

Now I NEVER wear a helmet

[nick burns]

It's funny LittleBigMan, I was thinking those very same thoughts on my ride home yesterday and I was wondering should I post them or not.

I had taken an extended break from visiting A&S and upon my recent return I was a little dismayed, but not really surprised, to see the same old arguments being played out.

Personally, i don't think anything I've read here has changed my mind or caused me to alter the way I ride, but then again I'm a stubborn, bone-headed sort. I do wonder if others have been influenced one way or another, however.

[Helmet Head]

Wow. Nick Burns! Welcome back!

Sigh. Is it really the same old arguments? By "same arguments", do you mean arguments with the same conclusions, or does the content of each argument seem the same too? I am under the impression that many of us keep coming up with new arguments, or at least new presentations of old arguments.

[nick burns]

or at least new presentations of old arguments.

That would be my take on it.

To be honest, I haven't been patient enough to read through all of the posts in the threads, I tend to lose interest after about page 4 or so.

If you guys are reaching new conclusions, that's great. I'm all for whatever it takes to make cycling more popular and get more people out on the roads.

[bbonnn]

I'm a newbie here. My mind was changed. I used to think it was courteous and expected of cyclists to ride as far to the right as possible. When I inched leftwise, I felt guilty for obstructing traffic and sensed that I was endangering myself by putting my body in the way of fast-moving traffic.

El wrong-o.

Gaining empowerment from this forum, I moved to the left. I feel much safer. Never get buzzed because cars KNOW they can't pass me without changing lanes. Kind of a no-brainer, but kind of not.

So there's that.

[randya]

Class project - everyone log onto a local motorist web site and try to get them to understand the bicyclist's perspective...:D

[LittleBigMan]

I'm a newbie here. My mind was changed. I used to think it was courteous and expected of cyclists to ride as far to the right as possible. When I inched leftwise, I felt guilty for obstructing traffic and sensed that I was endangering myself by putting my body in the way of fast-moving traffic.

El wrong-o.

Gaining empowerment from this forum, I moved to the left. I feel much safer. Never get buzzed because cars KNOW they can't pass me without changing lanes. Kind of a no-brainer, but kind of not.

So there's that.
I guess this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Yet with the constant attacking of others' character that goes on, I had wondered if the waters of wisdom had gotten too muddy to drink.

[flipped4bikes]

Class project - everyone log onto a local motorist web site and try to get them to understand the bicyclist's perspective...:D


Good one. I've never been to Cager Forums (just kidding), but do they vociferously complain about things such as: Keep Right Except to Pass, Blowing through Right Turns on Red, Crosswalks- why do we have to yield?, Do You Use Your Mirrors?, Is the Soccer Mom the Archetype Motorist?, and for Boston drivers, I Go Left Immediately When The Light Is Green. Of course my favorite would be, Why Is That Bicyclist On the Road and Delaying My Arrival to the Drive-Thru?

I've been guilty of slinging mud around, too, and I think perspective is definitely called for. I have my issues with sharing the road with cars (or the lack thereof), but for the most part, I ride safe and I come home every day. That, my SO is very grateful for... :)

[Bekologist]

I'm all for whatever it takes to make cycling more popular and get more people out on the roads.

I'm for whatever it takes to get more people out on the road. I am now in a position to advocate daily to bicyclists less "skilled" in traffic negotiation; I hand out bike maps showing Seattle's velotransit network daily as part of my job.

I have come up with several constructs and theories from reading A&S, I think it has given me new perspectives.

I also developed an awareness of my unsafe riding habits by reading this forum. Still do them, but I'm aware of my flippant, insoucient ways of showing the drivers I am wise to their car driving tricks...

[galen_52657]

Like many have said, the day you stop learning is the day you stop breathing (or something to that effect). Coming into Bikeforums last year I thought I knew pretty much everything there is to know about cycling. I still think I know just about everything :D but now I just know more of it!

Changes I have made:

Riding more toward the center of the lane to discourage the 'needle thread' pass, then moving right to encourage a safe pass. I also bought a mirror (though I have yet to get the thing on my helmet properly).

I am much more attentive to what overtaking motor traffic is doing instead of assuming a static lane position and hoping for a safe pass. I am also talking it up with other cyclists to think more about what they are doing.

Regarding infrastructure, I still feel a WOL is the least expensive way to accommodate cyclists, that is until governments are willing to build a COMPLETE infrastructure a la Copenhagen. But, I am not going to hold my breath on that one....

[bluebottle1]

Has anyone here changed their minds after being "corrected?" Have any newcomers been "enlightened?"

I'm not sure anything's being solved at all, no enlightenment, no inspiration.

I can tell you from my own experience that I've found the debates here very useful. They have had a direct impact on the way I ride, there is absolutely no question. Part of it is simply that it has made me think more about what I do and the way I do it. Ever since I started riding, I was told that bikes are vehicles, just like cars, but--beyond observing traffic signals--I never really considered what that meant. Now I think about it all the time and put those thoughts to use in my riding.

Frankly, I'm still not certain where I stand on the VC, bike lanes, WOL, etc., debate. I've found many of the concepts useful, though. Whether you realize it or not, I think you've been performing a service.

[rando]

I can tell you from my own experience that I've found the debates here very useful. They have had a direct impact on the way I ride, there is absolutely no question. Part of it is simply that it has made me think more about what I do and the way I do it. Ever since I started riding, I was told that bikes are vehicles, just like cars, but--beyond observing traffic signals--I never really considered what that meant. Now I think about it all the time and put those thoughts to use in my riding.

Frankly, I'm still not certain where I stand on the VC, bike lanes, WOL, etc., debate. I've found many of the concepts useful, though. Whether you realize it or not, I think you've been performing a service.

same here! getting us new riders to think about what we are doing and why, along with the philosophies, theories, laws, even the heated arguments, is a great service. the personal experience lessons from you all are invaluable. some of what is discussed on here is pretty silly, some is very nuts and bolts, some is even inspiring. I have learned a lot. I have laughed a lot! and I have gotten a lot of help from other cyclists with my newbie questions, so a big THANKS to all of you! gotta go get ready for my commute!

[patc]

Has anyone here changed their minds after being "corrected?" Have any newcomers been "enlightened?"

....
I see a lot more friendships developing around positive inspiration and simple shared experience outside the Advocacy and Safety forum. Inside, it's often a boiling cauldron of ill-feelings toward one another.

I'm not sure anything's being solved at all, no enlightenment, no inspiration.

I don't know about enlightenment, but in many cases my opinions have changed due to this forum. Not changed as in a complete reversal, but more informed, more detailed, and with a better understanding of why I hold that opinion and why someone else does not.

You are correct about the "boiling cauldron of ill-feelings". I decided to drop out of that some time ago. With three people on my ignore list and a refusal to be baited into personal attacks, I find A&S much less un-enjoyable than I used to. And when a thread becomes a long list of back-and-forth argumentative posts, I remove it from my subscriptions. I only read new threads on A&S, or those I am subscribed to. I would still rather see more moderation here, but this method makes the forum livable for me.

[Helmet Head]

Ever since I started riding, I was told that bikes are vehicles, just like cars, but--beyond observing traffic signals--I never really considered what that meant. Now I think about it all the time and put those thoughts to use in my riding.
Good for you. Good for you. This is very similar to my experience, only in my case I had heard "same rules; same roads; same rights", and never really considered what that meant, until I read Effective Cycling, which was recommended to me by a few folks on the local advocacy email list. So my aim is to simply return the favor for others, and I'm surprised at how much resistance I run into.

Once I considered what that meant, and adopted a few changes in my riding style accordingly, cycling in traffic became much easier, more enjoyable and felt safer (mostly due to a dramatic reduction in conflict situations, incidents of being mistreated, and "close calls"). Few seem to have an issue with that part of my experience. It's the sharing of my realization regarding what that meant with respect to bike lanes that seems to get everyone's ire going. And no matter how I try to present it, my explanations are mostly met with hostility. Disagreement I can understand. But the anger and hostility is more difficult to comprehend, except that it is evidence that their position about bike lanes is mired in emotion rather than based in reason (i.e., just saying that probably sets them off, though they don't seem to realize the significance of that).

[sbhikes]

I primarily surf here because I like feeling like I'm part of a community, however annoying it may be. I subscribe to an email list for the bicycle coalition but it's not real "chatty." I'm the only one who rides my bike to work at my office, and of all the people I encounter on the way to and from work, there is only one other that goes in the same direction as me--and he passes me like I'm standing still.

So, all the bickering and chuckling at chipcom's quips keeps me from hanging up my helmet and taking the Vespa instead. I feel less alone because of it. So why not hang out more in the Commuter forum? Because there's too much about "what should I buy".

[wsexson]

Never get buzzed because cars KNOW they can't pass me without changing lanes. Kind of a no-brainer, but kind of not.
Mostly kind of not. Motorists don't know they can't pass me without changing lanes when I drive a car! Positioning myself more to the left on a bike isn't going to change motorist behavior. I can only change my own behavior, not anyone else's.

[Roody]

I still get a lot out of this forum, but the bickering does get to me at times, even though I've been known to partake a little. I now rarely follow a thread past page three, when the angel dancing starts. I make a point to go to my "home forum" (carfree) first, so I don't get too caught up in the arguments here. And sometimes I take a total break for a few days when things get particularly pissy. But I do feel like I really know the top 10 posters here, and I really like 9 of them. Not to single anybody out, but I appreciate Al and LittleBigMan for trying to keep things on an even keel.

And I have learned a lot about cycling, especially but not exclusively from HH. I still feel like I know a lot less than most on this board. I'm learning more but I'll probably never catch up. But rather than feel intimidated, I think it's better to pitch in and try to keep up, even if I rarely succeed.

[LCI_Brian]

On the safety side, I think there's general consensus, and really most of the time the debates and the disagreement are on the finer points.

The advocacy side is a different story. There's probably more disagreement because that tends to bring in discussions regarding auto and land use, and other issues also, of which there seems to be differing opinions.

My big concern is for newbies coming to A&S. Maybe there could be a sticky for safety tips for newbies?

[Roody]

I think Brian has a good idea about a sticky for noobs on safety tips. That would have been useful to me when I first came here. But how to keep it from degenerating into a phony war over VC or off topic onto bike lanes or whatever? Wikipedia might be a better place to do this safety thread, since it allows editing.

The arguments that enervate and frustrate me are the ones over "VC", since everybody here except a few newbies does ride VC, whether they admit it or not. Bike lanes is frustrating sometimes too, but there are real differences and legitimate arguments for both sides, so at least it makes sense to argue about BLs.

[DCCommuter]

What's amazing to me is how much we argue, considering how much we agree and how out of the mainstream we are. If you were to ask here whether it's OK for bikes to ride in traffic lanes, there would be no question of whether, and endless bickering about how.

I suspect if you were to ask the same question in the general population you would find more people who believe that Elvis is alive than believe it's OK for bikes to ride in traffic.

To answer the original question, yes, I feel I learn a lot here.

[chipcom]

So, all the bickering and chuckling at chipcom's quips keeps me from hanging up my helmet and taking the Vespa instead. I feel less alone because of it. So why not hang out more in the Commuter forum? Because there's too much about "what should I buy".

The farce is strong in you, young trike peddler. :D

[chipcom]

The arguments that enervate and frustrate me are the ones over "VC", since everybody here except a few newbies does ride VC, whether they admit it or not.

In my case, my contention is that VCer's ride like the rest of us, that practical cycling techniques existed long before the term was ever coined. It's the old chicken-egg debate...I say chicken, you say egg, but in the end it's all the same.

[Helmet Head]

In my case, my contention is that VCer's ride like the rest of us, that practical cycling techniques existed long before the term was ever coined. It's the old chicken-egg debate...I say chicken, you say egg, but in the end it's all the same.

What you seem to be arguing (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that since practical cycling techniques existed long before the term vehicular cycling was coined, you object to referring to a methodology largely based on these techniques as anything, including vehicular cycling.

If so, that's not a chicken-egg debate.

To apply your reasoning to chickens and eggs would be to argue that since chickens and eggs existed long before the terms chicken and egg were coined, you object to referring to them to as chickens and eggs (or anything else for that matter).

Or, it's like saying that since capitalism existed before the term was coined, we shouldn't call it capitalism.

Do you object to calling defensive driving defensive driving since many drivers practiced careful practical driving techniques before they were assembled into a methodology now refereed to as "defensive driving"?

[Helmet Head]

My big concern is for newbies coming to A&S. Maybe there could be a sticky for safety tips for newbies?
That's a good idea. How about we hammer it out here, and then post the consensus version as an OP.

Here are some places to start looking for basic tips:

bicyclesafe.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_safety
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling


Here is a start of a list. So that it evolves into our consensus version, please copy/paste this list, then add your tips to it. Once it has settled to a consensus version, I'll post it in an OP.


Make sure bike's brakes, drivetrain and tires are all working correctly.
Obey the rules of the road.
Ride on the same side of the road as vehicular traffic, not on the other side opposing traffic.
Ride on the road, not on the sidewalk.
Choose lane position to be visible and predictable.
Learn to look back without veering from your path.
Ride outside of door zones - no closer than about 5 feet from the edge of parked cars.
Learn to negotiate for lane position with vehicular traffic in preparation for inside (left in the U.S.; right in England) turns.
Avoid the outside edge of the roadway, especially at intersections and their approaches.
Between intersections (but not at them or their approaches), yield to faster traffic by moving temporarily to the outside of the roadway, until the faster traffic has passed. Learn to use a mirror to monitor for faster traffic approaching from behind so you know when to yield.


That's just a rough start off the top of my head. What else?
Remember: Please copy/paste this list, and then modify it.

[chipcom]

Bzzt.

Grind the organ and the monkey dances.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[billh]

I like the Advocacy Forum because the various transportation philosophies are made explicit here. It's like having a political forum with a mix of Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Communists, Fascists, and Marxists, and some Trotsky-ites thrown in! Thus allowing me to hone my transpo-philosophy and rhetoric in contrast to the proponents of the various camps. Even identifying the various camps is useful, fun, and enlightening. Makes me question my own positions.

[Helmet Head]

Grind the organ and the monkey dances.
Well, yeah, if grinding the organ means taking absurd positions (like objecting to using a term to refer to something that existed before the term was coined) and dancing means pointing that out. I guess you like the sound of that nonsense organ, Chip, cuz that seems to be the only tune you're playing these days.

[yes]

I come here for visions of ground monkey and dancing organs. Oh, wait...

Seriously, this forum has been very helpful to me, and it provides some entertainment as well as information. The internet brings out the inner jerk in lots of people, so it's not surprising that it gets a bit nasty at time. These arguments are informative, though repetitive. I'm sure that most new people read these threads for a while when they first find the forum, then tune most of it static out.

[chipcom]

Me, little HH and Diane...in younger, happier daze...
http://homepage.mac.com/dorlando/.Pictures/pix/organ_grinder_pvega.jpg

[Helmet Head]

Stop complaining about the dancing monkey to the monkey - it's the organ grinders that you need to stop, from playing their nonsense tunes.

[-=£em in Pa=-]

What Ive gotten from it is that its time to re-evaluate my riding style.
For that I am thankful. Im am more conscious of certain things and am a
little more assertive. That being said, my other determination was that there
is nothing that 'wrong' with the the way I had been riding. Im perfectly happy
with it. Im not going to feel guilty about being an Ally Kat instead of an Alpha Dog.
People in this forum know well each others views so after a point a lot of the
posts are just an excersice in redundancy. Mine included :eek:
To answer the original question.....my views all together are pretty much unchanged.

[rando]

I kind of like the bickering. it's like Wiley Coyote and the roadrunner. Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd. Tom and Jerry. wouldn't be the same without HH and Chipcom or ILTB going at each other!

[wsexson]

The arguments that enervate and frustrate me are the ones over "VC", since everybody here except a few newbies does ride VC, whether they admit it or not.
Nope, I don't ride VC. I don't plan to, either.

[Helmet Head]

I kind of like the bickering.
No you don't.

[Helmet Head]

Nope, I don't ride VC. I don't plan to, either.
Well, then, I'm sure there's room for you in the Gang of Geniuses.

Do you even know what VC is?
What do you do that is contrary to riding VC?

[noisebeam]

Nope, I don't ride VC. I don't plan to, either.
Perhaps you don't ride 'VC', but you must at least on occasion at ride according to the vehicular rules of the road?
Al

[Roody]

I believe wsexon is the member who said he rides into the oncoming traffic? Perhaps I have him confused with someone else.

[wsexson]

I believe wsexon is the member who said he rides into the oncoming traffic? Perhaps I have him confused with someone else.
Perhaps!

[Helmet Head]

Perhaps you don't ride 'VC', but you must at least on occasion at ride according to the vehicular rules of the road?

There is no difference.
No one, not even car drivers, obey the rules of the road all the time.

[wsexson]

Perhaps you don't ride 'VC', but you must at least on occasion at ride according to the vehicular rules of the road?
No, but I do ride according to state law.

[wsexson]

Do you even know what VC is?
Yes I do. It is silly dogma for people that like to tell other people how they should live their lives.

[Helmet Head]

No, but I do ride according to state law.
Well, then, you're probably right, because one could easily be in compliance with the letter of the law but not traveling in accordance to the rules of the road (e.g., passing on the right is legal in most states, but arguably contradictory to the rules of the road except when the passed vehicle is stopped waiting for oncoming traffic to clear to turn left).

[Helmet Head]

Yes I do. [VC] is silly dogma for people that like to tell other people how they should live their lives.
Incorrect.

By the way, you should change your life so you would know this. :p

[wsexson]

Well, then, you're probably right, because one could easily be in compliance with the letter of the law but not traveling in accordance to the rules of the road (e.g., passing on the right is legal in most states, but arguably contradictory to the rules of the road except when the passed vehicle is stopped waiting for oncoming traffic to clear to turn left).
Good example of divergence between concepts and reality. I don't plan to cycle by the "rules of the road" as long as real life traffic on the roads does not. My purpose is to get somewhere, not to follow some set of hypothetical "rules".

[wsexson]

Incorrect.
Entirely correct.