Tandem Cycling - Hugi or Shimano 40 hole hubs?

Do Shimano HF08 and Hugi 40 hole hubs differ significantly in weight? Are the Hugi's more easily servicable? Most important, which are most reliable for touring? Any comments very welcome!

Do Shimano HF08 and Hugi 40 hole hubs differ significantly in weight? Are the Hugi's more easily servicable? Most important, which are most reliable for touring? Any comments very welcome!

Most here will disagree but I don't trust Hugis for tandems. Search the archive here or the English Tandem Club Discussion Board for the reasons why.

I have both and prefer the Hugis.

The old Hugis had some problems, but the new ones are great no problems. I have had both and preffer the Hugis. I have ran a set for the last three years with no problems on our Supremo, also they have sealed bearings were the Shimono has adjustable ball bearing, (most cyclist prefer sealed).The DT Hugis are standard equipment on all Co-Motions for the past several years, I don't think Dwan & Dan the owners of Co-Motion would spec them if there were any problems with the hub that would come back on them.

Good Luck,:)

Bill G

Shimano's HF08's are bombproof and a great value. Mel at TandemsEast specs them for use on triplets and quads. Earlier model HF07 Shimano hubs were NOT bombproof; different animals. I don't believe they have offered a "tandem" HF08 with disc brake mounts, but most come threaded for an Arai drum brake which will accept a thread-on disc rotor adapter. Price is about 1/2 of the Hugi model.

New Hugi hubs -- at least the tandem models -- are also a different design from their older models that tended to fail. We had a set of Coda-branded Hugi hubs on our C'dale MT3000 off-road tandem that failed in dramatic fashion with very low miles. New models continue to get a bad rap because of the older models. I have only read one or two complaints of hub issues with the new Hugi hubs which is on par with complaints about other good hub brands/models, e.g., Phil, Shimano, White, etc.. Hugi's tandem hubs are usually available with either left side threading for an Arai / rotor adapter or as a disc hub.

Either one should work just fine. Hugi's black finished hubs have a bit more "bling" than the polished aluminum Shimano models.

While this certainly isn't scientific, my LBS owner tells me he has had less problems with (the newer) Hugi hubs than with Phils. Hard to believe, but him da boss!

Both are good hubs but your leaving out the most reliable. Hadley Hubs. I have had them on my Ventana Tandems and never had a problem on or off road they really hold up and they are serviceable. It takes about 10 minutes to tear them down and relube them. Hope this helps

Hadley are available only in 160 mm, right? My rear spacing is 145. I should have mentioned that at the start of the thread. Lots of useful info here, thanks. I do want to use an Arai drum. Surely these go on the left?

Hadley are available only in 160 mm, right? My rear spacing is 145. I should have mentioned that at the start of the thread. Lots of useful info here, thanks. I do want to use an Arai drum. Surely these go on the left?

Hugi's have a bad reputation in the UK, but remember that they are also re-buildable, and providing you have the tools and spares to hand- this has been done at the roadside. I have XT tandem hubs on one set of wheels and they have not caused any problems. Plenty of strong MTB hubs out there, but look for the Downhill Quality versions. Since I went disc brake- I have used Hope Bigun's and If I ever want another set of wheels- this is what they will have again. Not done in 40 hole though.

The XT hubs are threaded for a Drum brake and althiugh they do not get rave reviews- they also do not get bad reports either.

Our favortie hubs are Chris King or Phils.
Had 3 tandems with Phils fronm the mid-70s to late 90s, and they lasted on each tandem for over 50,000 miles and are still rolling for all we know!

The Hugi hub failures that caught people's attention in the UK occurred in 2003 and were all less than a year old. Not the 'old' Hugi models that people in the US seem to be referring to, AFAIK. More details in the resources I noted at the start.

The Hugi hub failures that caught people's attention in the UK occurred in 2003 and were all less than a year old. Not the 'old' Hugi models that people in the US seem to be referring to, AFAIK. More details in the resources I noted at the start.

Interestingly enough, the one DT-Swiss/Hugi failure that I mentioned reading about in my first response (noting that there are easily several thousand Co-Motion tandems running around on them) occured at around 700 miles during a steep climb on a Co-Motion tandem that was bought new in Feb of 2003. Both the timing and mileage sound similar to the PBP failures to which you refer which, if only because of the similarities and timing, suggests a short-term quality issue... assembly error, defective/improperly heat-treated parts, lubricant contamination. The hub was repaired and that tandem was ultimately replaced by a newer Co-Motion with DT-Swiss hubs that at last report had 4,000 miles of trouble-free operation.

Beyond these failures, the most often cited problem for either the DT-Swiss/Hugi or Chris King hubs -- both of which use a more complex engagement system than the Shimano, White, Phil Wood, or Hadley designs -- is related to a lapse in routine maintenance. These designs are far less forgiving of lubricant contamination and breakdown and should be serviced (simple cleaning and relube) at least once a year. For those who ride in inclement weather or off-road, service internvals should be more frequent. Moreover, both DT-Swiss/Hugi and Chris King specify the use of their own grease formulations.

Here's a link to the DT-Swiss manual:
http://www.dtswiss.com/data/files/MAN_EN_41130142043.pdf

By the way, when last I checked, Rolf's Prima Vigor tandem wheels use the guts of a DT-Swiss tandem hub.


For reference purposes, in addition to working on a raft of other folks tandem hubs, our this is our personal tandem hub history:

'96 160mm Edco (road): No problems
'98 140mm Coda/Hugi (off-road): David & Christen had the honors of blowing ours apart
'98 145mm Phil Wood FSA (road): Pawl issues when new; rebuilt by Phil & resolved
'99 140mm Shimano HF08 (off-road): No problems
'00 135mm Hope BULB (off-road): No major issues
'02 135mm Chris King (off-road): One break-in issue; adjusted pre-load & resolved
'02 145mm White Ind. (road): Bad bearings/quality issue; resolved & no problems since then
'02 145mm Phil Wood FSA (road): No problems

Mark:
Interesting statisitcs on hubs. But it would also help to know approximately how many miles on hubs that failed and why.
Back in the 70s we used to chew up hubs/bearings with regularity on the rear our Follis tandem. Fortunately better hubs, sealed bearings and quality control have made most of these issues a thing of the past!

'96 160mm Edco (road): No problems
- Approximately 4,500 miles over 15 months in mostly dry conditions.

'98 140mm Coda/Hugi (off-road): David & Christen had the honors of blowing ours apart
- Probably not more than 400 miles of off-road riding. The star ratchet had started to skip on us before we let David & Christen take our MT3000 out for a test ride and the ratchet mechanism let go during a burst of power on a short, steep climb.

'98 145mm Phil Wood FSA (road): Pawl issues when new; rebuilt by Phil & resolved
- Out of the box the rear hub was "slipping" with a pronounced "clunk" under hard acceleration. Their first attempt at fixing the hub didn't work and they eventually sent me a new hub. With about 15k miles, the replacement hub is still working fine, although the wheelset sits in reserve these days.

'99 140mm Shimano HF08 (off-road): No problems
- This was the hub that replaced the Coda/Hugi model on our MT3000. Sold the bike shortly after installing the hub. However, have seen HF08's take tons of abuse without any problems.

'00 135mm Hope BULB (off-road): No major issues
Probably 1,200 off-road miles, including lots of high-torque climbs. The splines seemed pretty soft on the cassette and were deeply gouged.

'02 135mm Chris King (off-road): One break-in issue; adjusted pre-load & resolved
- Chris Kings must be re-adjusted after the first 100 miles. Our's needed to be adjusted twice. The rear hub began slipping during an off-road endurance ride and it was quickly resolved by tightening the preload adjustment. These hubs probably have about 1000 miles since then without any trouble.

'02 145mm White Ind. (road): Bad bearings/quality issue; resolved & no problems since then
- At about 500 miles the front wheel developed a bearing issue. It turns out that the end cap was not made to spec, which led to the bearing failure. While shipped out a new set of bearings and a new end cap and these wheels have been trouble free for 10k miles.

'02 145mm Phil Wood FSA (road): No problems
- About 8k miles so far (this tandem splits duty with our '98) and no problems.

Thanx for the new numbers Mark; failures can/will happen and it's always nice when manufacturer takes responsibility. Pays to keep a log!

Sounds like, on a bang per buck basis, Shimanos will do fine on our elderley Orbit tandem. Thanks to everyone who posted; as usual I learned a lot.

Shimano's HF08's are bombproof and a great value. Mel at TandemsEast specs them for use on triplets and quads.

After recommendations here and elsewhere, bought the Shimano hubs a couple of months ago and had built into Mavic rims and a rear Arai drum. A few days into our first tour - two weeks in Tuscany, some on roughish roads with panniers - the Arai hub cover started rubbing against the finned flanged bit. The 1 or 2 mm gap between these two is no a zero mm gap on one side and 3 mm on the other. In fact, it makes a scraping sound as it goes round. Could this be due to a bent axle?

Are the HF08 axles replacable? Presumably they aren't as strong as a larger diameter White Industries rear hub axle. Should I have gone for one of these instead for touring? Our combined weight is 260 lbs and had rear panniers only - terribly heavy rear pannier either.

Would appreciate any advice.

I have 3 sets of Hugi's - both new and old (after DT Swiss aquired Hugi) and a a 40 hole pre aquistion front not yet built, and on my single tourer Hugi Sports. In addition I have 3,000 miles on a a set of White Industry (40.48 hole combination). I think everyone who has bought a recent Co motion will see the Hugi Hubs privately branded Co Motion. I am not sure if these privately branded are indentical to those you buy directly from Hugi - I do know Co Motion helped in the recent designs changes. I have never had a issue with any of these hubs - knock on wood !!! Now rims and tires are another story - by the we are a 365 llb team.

Thanks Vosyer. From the website of Precision Tandems it seems that the White's have a larger diameter axle than the Hugi's or Shimano's. So I though perhaps the Whites would be less susceptible to axle bending. At the moment I am having trouble working out if my problem is due to a bent axle or not. As far as the rims, we went with Mavic A719 40 hole and have been happy with these.

I'd really be surprised if a Shimano HF08 tandem hub axle bent under such a light load -- but stranger things have happened to tandem components so anything is possible. The axles are replaceable, as is just about every other part of the Shimano HF08 with the exception of the left-side bearing race.

Although not part of the original discussion which addressed Hugi vs. Shimano, White makes some excellent hubs. We've put over 10k miles on a set of Racer-X models and aside from one issue with an out of spec front end cap and trashed bearing that were easily replaced with parts over nighted by White, they've been excellent. Some friends have had some bearing issues with a rear hub but, again, White was quick to support a local dealer who fixed the hub in less than an hour.

Phil Wood and Chris King's tandem hubs are also pretty stout but both require periodic maintenance -- cleaning and lubrication of the internals -- to keep them trouble free. Although, several teams have reported some pawl issues with Phils over the years so even some of the "best" hubs are not immune to problems (see stranger things have happened comments above).

TandemGeek,
Thanks for getting back to me. I am having trouble figuring out exactly what the problem is so will try to describe symtoms more coherently. The wheel builder is unfortunately hundreds of miles away and finding it difficult to envision the difficulty from my phone conversation.
First noticed a problem when noise started coming from the Arai drum brake mounted on the HF08 hub. (All are new.) The 110 mm or so black metal disk to which the lever arm is attached is not not centered in the bit it fits into, ie the drum brake flange. There's about a 2 mm gap on one side and directly across from that 0 mm gap so that the black metal disk rubs a bit on the flange of the drum. This disk shaped metal cover has, touching it on the inside, a serated nut. On the outside a spacer, then another serrated faced nut which touches the inner side of the left hand dropout of the bike. When I remove: the outer nut, then the spacer, then the disk-shaped cover so that I can see a length of axle, I can rotate the axle freely in the bearings. It MAY be slightly bent but if so this is very slight and hard to see when rotating the axle. Perhaps the problem is with the Arai drum. I believe that I need a special tool to remove this drum and plan to order the tool from the wonderful Precision Tandems. But, in the meantime, is there anywhere on the web I can find an exploded diagram of an Arai drum brake so that I can see if is has been installed correctly and how much tension to put on the serrated nuts? Has anyone else had problem like this?
Thanks again for all the help.

Arai Drum Brake Info: http://www.precisiontandems.com/arai.htm