Advocacy & Safety - Here's an idea

I ride every day up a narrow windy road. Even if I'm crunched up as far to the right as possible nobody can get around me without crossing into oncoming (and unceasing) traffic. So basically I acquire a line of traffic behind me almost every day.

At one point the road widens very briefly and is exactly my full trike width wider than any other spot. I have found that it makes a great little turnout for me. I can pull into it and let everybody by.

How about turnouts for bikes on some of these difficult roads everybody keeps complaining about? They don't have to be all that wide or long. Just enough so you can relieve the congestion behind you and actually be capable of being treated like a slow moving vehicle. Doesn't require a huge amount of road re-work or the addition of tons of new pavement. You could probably achieve it simply by removing a few trees to make room for the turnout.

Not that being treated like a slow moving vehicle is a delightful experience. Living in a mountainous community and always having owned an under-powered motor vehicle I can tell you that people tailgate and act all rude behind you just to make sure you use the turnout. But they do help make things a lot safer overall since that removes the temptation to do close or unsafe passes.

Remove the temptation? Probably not. Lessen it? Yes, I should think so. Particularly on narrow and winding roads, it sounds like a decent accommodation. You're still gonna get *******s who will tailgate you just because they think they're too important to wait for you to reach the next turnout, but it could at least prevent too long a line behind you.

I ride every day up a narrow windy road. Even if I'm crunched up as far to the right as possible nobody can get around me without crossing into oncoming (and unceasing) traffic. So basically I acquire a line of traffic behind me almost every day.

At one point the road widens very briefly and is exactly my full trike width wider than any other spot. I have found that it makes a great little turnout for me. I can pull into it and let everybody by.

How about turnouts for bikes on some of these difficult roads everybody keeps complaining about?
I do the same thing sometimes, when I'm aware of someone that can't otherwise pass and I get a chance to move over significantly, I do it, as long as it's practical.

There are some spots on my commute where there is a long, diagonally-striped "no man's land" in the center of the road. It serves me very well in the opposite way, that is, it gives motorists plenty of extra room to filter by me.

My first priority is taking enough room for me, but if it's appropriate to "hold the door open" for someone behind me, I will.

For narrow roads with poor safe passing opportunities, I think a bike turnout idea makes sense, though I would prefer a regular turnout serving all sizes of slow moving vehicles. What happens when a full cement truck goes up this hill?

For narrow roads with poor safe passing opportunities, I think a bike turnout idea makes sense, though I would prefer a regular turnout serving all sizes of slow moving vehicles. What happens when a full cement truck goes up this hill?
Additionally a pull out should be long enough so the cyclist can continue at slow speed and re-negotiate back into the narrow lane without normally having to stop. (obviously they may choose to stop and wait for a long gap, but if one rarely appears...)

Ideally the lane should simply be wide for the entire hill so the cyclist can pull out whenever needed. The only benefit for partial sections of pull outs is potentialy lower cost and if a project is undertaken to consider these it would be wise to compare the relative costs.

Al

On a windy hillside road the cost differential could be huge. There might be a natural wide spot here and there, but to widen the entire road could mean cutting into the hillside for the length of the entire climb.

I ride every day up a narrow windy road. Even if I'm crunched up as far to the right as possible nobody can get around me without crossing into oncoming (and unceasing) traffic. So basically I acquire a line of traffic behind me almost every day.

At one point the road widens very briefly and is exactly my full trike width wider than any other spot. I have found that it makes a great little turnout for me. I can pull into it and let everybody by.

How about turnouts for bikes on some of these difficult roads everybody keeps complaining about? They don't have to be all that wide or long. Just enough so you can relieve the congestion behind you and actually be capable of being treated like a slow moving vehicle. Doesn't require a huge amount of road re-work or the addition of tons of new pavement. You could probably achieve it simply by removing a few trees to make room for the turnout.

Not that being treated like a slow moving vehicle is a delightful experience. Living in a mountainous community and always having owned an under-powered motor vehicle I can tell you that people tailgate and act all rude behind you just to make sure you use the turnout. But they do help make things a lot safer overall since that removes the temptation to do close or unsafe passes.


It is actually a wonderful idea... and I have seen it in action on the San Juan Islands, where very narrow roads are all that exist due to the limitation of transporting building materials to the islands.

I saw these all over Orcas Island... But then again, everyone drives about 25MPH anyway on the island.

The turnouts were very well marked "Bicycle turnout."

BTW the bike turnouts only existed where the roads were steep... which made sense based on the usual speeds everyone drove.

There are a lot of vehicular turnouts on the European country roads which often get narrow, steep and windy. These are much appreciated by cyclists who will use them for other vehicles coming in both directions.

I ride every day up a narrow windy road. Even if I'm crunched up as far to the right as possible nobody can get around me without crossing into oncoming (and unceasing) traffic. So basically I acquire a line of traffic behind me almost every day.

At one point the road widens very briefly and is exactly my full trike width wider than any other spot. I have found that it makes a great little turnout for me. I can pull into it and let everybody by.

How about turnouts for bikes on some of these difficult roads everybody keeps complaining about? They don't have to be all that wide or long. Just enough so you can relieve the congestion behind you and actually be capable of being treated like a slow moving vehicle. Doesn't require a huge amount of road re-work or the addition of tons of new pavement. You could probably achieve it simply by removing a few trees to make room for the turnout.

Not that being treated like a slow moving vehicle is a delightful experience. Living in a mountainous community and always having owned an under-powered motor vehicle I can tell you that people tailgate and act all rude behind you just to make sure you use the turnout. But they do help make things a lot safer overall since that removes the temptation to do close or unsafe passes.

What a great idea! Reminds me of the slow vehicle lanes on the interstate driving through Tennessee. Then on the downhill, they have the "runaway truck" offramps into a pile of sand. Hopefully, won't need those for bicycles! :)

What a great idea! Reminds me of the slow vehicle lanes on the interstate driving through Tennessee. Then on the downhill, they have the "runaway truck" offramps into a pile of sand. Hopefully, won't need those for bicycles! :)

Well before those great Koolstop salmon brake pads came out... on a long decent on a fully loaded tour... Well anyway, it's a long story.

I'll bet results could be acheived with adaptive striping and a combination of wide shoulder/velotransit/ breakdown lane. I've seen several on mountain roads. As to cost, well that's a craps shoot entierly unique to locale, so no wild guesses on my part there.

On a windy hillside road the cost differential could be huge. There might be a natural wide spot here and there, but to widen the entire road could mean cutting into the hillside for the length of the entire climb.

I know some of the roads in the Santa Barbara area. Huge does not begin to cover it. All but impossible is more like it. Take out houses and change teh entire character of the area is what a widening would mean in many places in the hills.

Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned having signs. I think that is an important part. It tells cyclists to use them and since on this kind of road most of the drivers are local and drive the road all the time it lets the driver know that he can expect being stuck behind the slow bike to end much sooner than it would otherwise.

For narrow roads with poor safe passing opportunities, I think a bike turnout idea makes sense, though I would prefer a regular turnout serving all sizes of slow moving vehicles.
The issue is to provide safe turnouts for bikes on roads that cannot be widened. If they can be widened for a turnout big enough for a cement truck then they can be widened all the way. Many people complain that to put in WOL or bike lanes is not feasible because of lack of space. Not much space is needed for a bicycle turnout.

What happens when a full cement truck goes up this hill?
EVERYBODY gets the hell out of the way. I'm not kidding.

But, Diane, isn't there a long line of held-up traffic stuck behind the cement truck?
Does a cement truck driver have any more right to do this than you on your trike?

But, Diane, isn't there a long line of held-up traffic stuck behind the cement truck?
Does a cement truck driver have any more right to do this than you on your trike?

Q. When an 800lb gorilla comes to your house, where does he sit?

A. Any darned place he wants

Nuff said.

Does a cement truck driver have any more right to do this than you on your trike?

Q. When an 800lb gorilla comes to your house, where does he sit?

A. Any darned place he wants

Nuff said.
Now you're advocating that the jungle principle of might makes right applies in civilized traffic? Do you have any idea how debilitating it can be for a cyclist to believe such nonsense?

If one applied your half-brained "logic" in a woman's self-defense class it would go something like this... the male aggressor is likely to be bigger and stronger than you, so you might as well submit. :rolleyes:

You have just achieved lifetime membership in the Gang of Geniuses, Chip. Congratulations.

Now you're advocating that the jungle principle of might makes right applies in civilized traffic? Do you have any idea how debilitating it can be for a cyclist to believe such nonsense?

If one applied your half-brained "logic" in a woman's self-defense class it would go something like this... the male aggressor is likely to be bigger and stronger than you, so you might as well submit. :rolleyes:

You have just achieved lifetime membership in the Gang of Geniuses, Chip. Congratulations.

Yeah, right. I should have known that only you would take such a simple basic reality of life and twist it all out of proportion and miss the real meaning. I see you must be the President of your 'gang of geniuses' since you seem to like conveying membership rights.

It's not a matter of rights, it's a matter of physical reality. A big ole dump truck can't just 'get out of the way' as easily as a bicycle. Are you really this thick, or are you just trying to land a role as the clueless doofus on some sitcom?

But, Diane, isn't there a long line of held-up traffic stuck behind the cement truck?
Does a cement truck driver have any more right to do this than you on your trike?

Apparently the cement truck driver does.

First of all, there is no long line of held-up traffic behind him. He's blazing around the corners so fast the little trailer on the back is like a whip. But there is a certain amount of shall we say held-up traffic in front of him on the on-coming side of the road. They're all squooshed over as far to their right as possible so as to not be run over by the truck itslef or smashed into by the whipping action of the little trailer on the back.

No similarities whatsoever to me on my bike or trike.

Why do cement truck drivers drive up faster than other motor vehicles which statistically should include some aggressive fast drivers too?

I did not say that they do. HH thought they are slow moving vehicles. But they are not, and in fact, although they are not necessarily faster than other motor vehicles they are driven faster than they should be almost every time I see one. They scare the bejeezus (or is that the beforesterus) out of me.

Diane, does your narrow windy road also have steep hills on either side, or some other impediment to simply pulling completely off the road once in a while? Otherwise, if you're willing to pull over to let cars by occasionally (for which I applaud you), I don't see why you need to stay on pavement to do it, as opposed to simply pulling onto the grass.

You don't say how you get back into traffic again after pulling out, if the traffic is so unceasing. But again, I don't see how a paved pulloff makes that any easier than just getting back on the road from the grass. (Well, okay, it's slightly easier to start pedalling, I guess.)

What am I missing here?

Diane, does your narrow windy road also have steep hills on either side, or some other impediment to simply pulling completely off the road once in a while? Otherwise, if you're willing to pull over to let cars by occasionally (for which I applaud you), I don't see why you need to stay on pavement to do it, as opposed to simply pulling onto the grass.

You don't say how you get back into traffic again after pulling out, if the traffic is so unceasing. But again, I don't see how a paved pulloff makes that any easier than just getting back on the road from the grass. (Well, okay, it's slightly easier to start pedalling, I guess.)

What am I missing here?

I'm not sure about Diane's roads, but on my country back roads, many times the fog line is at the edge of the pavement, and after about 6" of gravel, it drops off into a ditch.

Diane, does your narrow windy road also have steep hills on either side, or some other impediment to simply pulling completely off the road once in a while? Otherwise, if you're willing to pull over to let cars by occasionally (for which I applaud you), I don't see why you need to stay on pavement to do it, as opposed to simply pulling onto the grass.

You don't say how you get back into traffic again after pulling out, if the traffic is so unceasing. But again, I don't see how a paved pulloff makes that any easier than just getting back on the road from the grass. (Well, okay, it's slightly easier to start pedalling, I guess.)

What am I missing here?
No fog line on this road. It contours along the side of a hill. So one side is a sheer drop off and the other is a vertical hill. Those of us who use the road often wonder how on earth the dirt even stays attached and why the eucalyptus (blue gum no less) trees don't just fall down. Eucalyptus bark, twigs and berries are constantly falling into the road and accumulating in the path the water takes when it rains.

How do I do it? I ride up the road pull into my little "turnout" by trying to make it look obvious that I am indeed pulling over by getting my right wheel into the eucalyptus berries. I only slow, I don't stop. Then I either peer into my mirror or actually wave them around. They always notice when I'm looking at them in the mirror. There are only ever one or two, maybe 3 cars behind me. The road isn't very long and the turnout isn't very far up it. Once they pass away I go again. Usually there are more that come along, but it's only a short distance before the road straightens out and they feel ok about crossing the yellow line to pass me. It's a bummer on busy days like today when nobody had a chance to pass me after the turnout because the oncoming traffic was so dense (it's always constant on the other side and relatively light on my side). But they did not honk or rev or do anything rude.

And before you go frothing at the mouth HH, it is a bummer for them because it's a universal bummer to be stuck going 4 mph no matter what the reason.

Hey, I'm not inhuman. I do what I can -- short of sacrificing my safety -- to avoid causing others to have to drive at 4 mph!

For narrow roads with poor safe passing opportunities, I think a bike turnout idea makes sense, though I would prefer a regular turnout serving all sizes of slow moving vehicles. What happens when a full cement truck goes up this hill?

The idea does have merit. The cement truck got me thinking (which is a bad thing)...They have runaway truck turnoff at the bottom of some hills, shouldn't there also be runaway bike turnoffs? :roflmao:

But, Diane, isn't there a long line of held-up traffic stuck behind the cement truck?
Does a cement truck driver have any more right to do this than you on your trike?

But annoyance wise there is a difference. The truck is apt to be a one time deal. At the worst (very worst) the construction will be over in a few months. With Diane there is no end in sight. She will be back. Also on the practical side I don't think it will bother the cement truck driver very much if someone gets a bit impatient and tailgates him.