Living Car Free - Isn't $4.00 Gas a good thing?

Shouldn't it slow down comsumption and at least ease our way into the impending oil shortage?

If I see more people riding bikes for utility and transport it makes me feel good. I know my groceries will cost a bit more and when I have to use a car for work it will cut a bigger gash into my bottom line, but it will make me feel good to see people use cars less.

I know I am taking to the converted already, but I hope it shows other people how valuable oil is and how to use it a bit more wisely. And maybe I won't just be me and the local crazies and illegal labor pool riding our bikes around!

It'll suck for rural poor. Other than that, I always smile when the price of gas goes up.

countdown to the inevitible "it makes everything cost more" post

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hahaha

Doesn't bother me, but the wife won't like it. Maybe I can use this to get her on her bike more.

I must admit to an inward chuckle. Especially when I'm passing a gas station and see a large boat, behind a large truck at the gas pumps. My inward thought is, "You want to catch fish? Get a bicycle, a canoe, a trailer and a pair of wading shoes.":D

Doesn't bother me, but the wife won't like it. Maybe I can use this to get her on her bike more.

I must admit to an inward chuckle. Especially when I'm passing a gas station and see a large boat, behind a large truck at the gas pumps. My inward thought is, "You want to catch fish? Get a bicycle, a canoe, a trailer and a pair of wading shoes.":D

or get one of these
http://www.gizmag.com/watermark.php?p=2505_01.jpg

minus the flag

hot damn, $75/barrel today

countdown to the inevitible "it makes everything cost more" post

3, 2, 1...
But of course it will make everything cost more. :) Really. :(

That's why I favor a steep tax on gas guzzling vehicles, rather than on gasoline. Use the revenues from the gas guzzler tax to build up the non-automobile infrastructure. Then, when people have decent alternatives to cars, tax the hell out of gas.

It won't change habits and lifestyle choices.

Where were all these people when gas was 90 cents a gallon during the 90's? They complain about whoever is charging so much for gas, "they are greedy" kind of talk, but the same market forces are in effect now as then. The oil companies do not have the ability to set prices. If somebody doesn't like the price of any item, find a substitute. Drive less, car pool, get out of the cage and live!

I think gas would have to jump a lot higher than $4 a gallon very quickly to cause most people to drive substantially less. And it would suck for those of us who can't seem to find a job any closer than 30 miles away yet can't afford to move closer to that job. :( About the only driving I do is to work and back, and yesterday I paid $61.50 for gas. But until I find a job closer to home I guess I'll have to deal with it.

But of course it will make everything cost more. :) Really. :(

That's why I favor a steep tax on gas guzzling vehicles, rather than on gasoline. Use the revenues from the gas guzzler tax to build up the non-automobile infrastructure. Then, when people have decent alternatives to cars, tax the hell out of gas.

That doesn't work. Once someone pays the guzzler tax - then they feel free to drive the vehicle as much as they want because gas is still too cheap, same if they buy it used and don't pay the tax at all. The best way to reduce CO2 emissions is to adopt a market-based approach and bring the cost of using fossil fuels as close to the end user as possible, which is to raise the price at the pump. Everything else is an incomplete and easily circumvented approach.

Higher pump prices cause pain for awhile but if it is known that they will stay high, end users soon figure out better and more efficient transportation choices and investments. The problem is that every time they go up, people kick and scream and beg for relief, which is the worst thing that can happen. Gas prices need to stay high to build demand for more efficient alternatives. I get so pissed when I see the Dems calling for price relief - this planet cannot take many more years of cheap oil in America.

Oh yeah, to answer the original question - $4/gal gas would be a good thing if we get there slowly. Better it go up 25-50 cents/year than overnight, or Congress will take steps to reduce the pain, like eliminating gas taxes or penalizing the oil companies to lower the price - the worst possible scenario. The market has to be allowed to work - slow and steady allows people and the auto manufacturers to adjust, and hurts the poor less.

$4/gal gas would be a good thing if we get there slowly.

Well we are just about there in NY for anything less than premium. Premium is already over $4.

I think the worst thing about is the 'outrage' and 'shock' you see reported. Maybe it's just the news looking for ratings and such, but are people really shocked? I can see being a bit upset, especially for the rural poor whom it will hit the hardest (as GBD said above), But outraged?

I look at the present oil crisis in a series of crisises as just another warning-get alternative transit or else pay the price! People as a rule cry, scream and go kicking into the future. Then some (generally not many) will adopt another approuch and adopt a more sane lifestyle (smaller cars, public transit, walking, even bikes). Others (more of the given population) will wait until the price of oil at the pumps drops back to a more cost comfort zone and go back to sleep. Until the next time..........

its good for me. the f gas shirt we make is selling good right now. we havent sold any in the last 3 monthes, now that gas has gone up people start buying it.

I think the worst thing about is the 'outrage' and 'shock' you see reported. Maybe it's just the news looking for ratings and such, but are people really shocked? I can see being a bit upset, especially for the rural poor whom it will hit the hardest (as GBD said above), But outraged?

Sure - because people (in general, not everyone) are egotistical and self-serving. They believe their "right to drive" should come with a right to cheap gas. They don't bother to inform themselves but spout whatever they've heard that supports them - the oil companies are just greedy, they could charge less if they wanted to, etc. The same people that are insulted and/or threatened by a car-free lifestyle take it as an affront that the gas companies charge them so much just to drive their car around.

High gas prices will force lifestyle changes for some, but not in the ways we're thinking of. http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_110231803.html

These people will give up a lot to keep driving like they are. Too many people are too far gone to think of it any other way.

I'm sure many of us who are car-free or car-lite find humor in seeing people go crazy over gas prices. I know I do. Hopefully it will encourage people to buy more efficient cars, or to seek alternatives to driving sometimes, but for the most part I just see people complaining and wasting their money.

High gas prices will force lifestyle changes for some, but not in the ways we're thinking of. http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_110231803.html

These people will give up a lot to keep driving like they are. Too many people are too far gone to think of it any other way.

That's just crazy. I can't believe people are so dependent on their cars that if gas goes up a buck they have to start pawning things. What did they thinks was going to happen? For three years now gas has been going up each summer, and dropping back only halfway in the fall - a steady annual increase. Plus with all the news about global demand and growth in China - what did they think was going to happen? Yet, they keep on buying new trucks, RV's and SUV's, and even the sports sedans have V8's now - I am sorry but I don't have much sympathy at this point. Anyone but an idiot could have seen this coming.

High gas prices will force lifestyle changes for some, but not in the ways we're thinking of. http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_110231803.html

These people will give up a lot to keep driving like they are. Too many people are too far gone to think of it any other way.
Geez, if I were them I'd sell my land yacht and buy a $2500 Civic before I'd start pawning off all my worldly possessions just to get to the end of the week. And that's not even getting into replacing the car with a bike. Gas will always go up in price over time, and eventually you'll run out of "stuff".

or get one of these
http://www.gizmag.com/watermark.php?p=2505_01.jpg

I hope that guy's not going clipless.

I think gas would have to jump a lot higher than $4 a gallon very quickly to cause

I told my co-workers last year, and I'm still willing to stick by my prediction, expect gas to hit $5 a gallon by the end of summer 2006 and between $7.50 and $10 a gallon by the end of summer 2007.

The high prices aren't gouging by the oil companies (don't think I'm defending them though, I've got no use for them). They are the inevitable outcome of the current economic system. If you've got stagnant or shrinking production, but increasing demand, the prices have to go up. The production costs haven't changed, so of course it's all profit. If Joe Blow Heavy Industries is willing to buy all that they can get at $3 a gallon, why should the oil companies sell it to Joe Blow average driver for less than $3.50. It costs a lot more to make it available to millions of individual buyers than it does to a few thousand large corporate buyers. And as the supply continues to get more scarce, watch a greater percentage of it going to industry.

After all, they will just pass the increase in cost on to the final consumer. When you put it in your car, you can't pass the cost on to anyone else, unless you run a business. That's why the cost of gasoline for individual users will go up faster than any other use. Just my opinion though. What do I know.

Oh yeah, ps, I know that most heavy industry doesn't actually use it in the form of gasoline, but it's really irrelevant. It's all petroleum. No matter what form they use it in, it means less for you.

But of course it will make everything cost more. :) Really. :(

That's why I favor a steep tax on gas guzzling vehicles, rather than on gasoline. Use the revenues from the gas guzzler tax to build up the non-automobile infrastructure. Then, when people have decent alternatives to cars, tax the hell out of gas.

Everyday prices will go up, but maybe not as much as anticipated. When gas prices rose rapidly at the end of 2005, freight rail usage skyrocketed. This could somewhat buffer increases in cost of goods. And after all, isn't that something most of us want - more rail usage and more bicycle riders!

well I was going to post about the prices of everything going up. But it looks like that has been done to death in previous threads so Ill leave it at that. Though being an economics student. If we dont find a solution, the economy will hit the **** as such. Australia has had growth for 14-15 years now so for younger people like myself we were too young to know what a recession is like, so we dont know what hard economic times mean. It'll come as a shock to me and lots of other people when eventually we do have a recession, or high inflation

High gas prices will force lifestyle changes for some, but not in the ways we're thinking of. http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_110231803.html

These people will give up a lot to keep driving like they are. Too many people are too far gone to think of it any other way.

where have we seen this kind of behavior before? oh yeah, drug addicts.

Seggy, I was just thinking that same thing.... in a sence, people who are addicted to their cars are indeed like addicts, lookin for that next gallon.
"Can you spare some change so I can get a gallon, or a cheese burger?"
Attercoppe: Sure - because people (in general, not everyone) are egotistical and self-serving. They believe their "right to drive" should come with a right to cheap gas. They don't bother to inform themselves but spout whatever they've heard that supports them-

When I was nearing that age 15 or so, looking to get my licence my father told me this: "Driving is a Privilege not a right"
Americans are materilistic swine, who believe that what they own give them the idea that, thats what they are. No matter how high gas gets people will find ways to drive their cars, they will cut back on what they know they can cut back on; Starbucks, The Hair Salon, Booze, Pot, Cable TV, Dog Food, Fast Food.
I'm so proud not to be tied to a prison cell on 4 wheels, a death trap in my eyes. The oil compines can raise the price of oil to whatever they want for all I care, I dont drive, I ride the bus every now and again. I get laid with-out having a car; Just gotta show off the mad bike skills.- oh wait, no i dont.
But people will find a way to get around in their motorized death traps, just like a junkie lookin for that next hit.

If you really don't care how high oil prices go you must be 100% petroleum free and thats something to be proud of. That said, you're obviously on a computer. I'd be willing to bee some of the things you buy have to come via truck or airplane. I bet your house has electricity (although I know at least up here in Fort Collins, you can have it run by wind power from the grid).

High oil prices are great to get people to stop driving, but they really suck for everyone - no matter what.

An early example of how high oil prices affect the carfree:

I ride a Greyhound bus 400 miles round trip every month. The fares on that keep going up with the gas prices, of course. So far, ridership has been going up too, at least on this route. If Greyhound is smart, they'll try to keep fares down (as much as possible) so more people will decide the bus is a good alternative. Same thing with the airlines.

I'm fortunate in that I'm carfree by choice rather than necessity, so I can afford the higher fares, even if I don't like them. The poorer people, who make up the bulk of Greyhound riders, are being hit a lot harder than I am.

I still can't believe that they closed the Greyhound terminal in this town. The next closest one is now 30 miles away. No passenger train service either. If you're car free the only way to leave this town is either bike, rent a car, take a plane or walk. You'd think there would be better options in a town of 60,000

I still can't believe that they closed the Greyhound terminal in this town. The next closest one is now 30 miles away. No passenger train service either. If you're car free the only way to leave this town is either bike, rent a car, take a plane or walk. You'd think there would be better options in a town of 60,000
Don't get me started on Greyhound!! They have to be the stupidest company in America. Their corporate strategy is to cut feeder service and rely on their main lines for revenue. But how are we going to use the main lines if we can't get to them from most places? If you want to get from Elkhart (or whatever town you live in) to Los Angeles, you have to hitchhike to Indianapolis or Kalamazoo to catch the mainline bus.

How moronic can a company be? I wonder if the car companies secretly pay off Greyhound to keep it non-competitive? :)

I think the high gas prices are only good if they actually forced us to do something about it collectively. Everyone is screaming at the top of their lungs how there is price gouging and lying. Yet there are no calls for energy transparecy, which would be a very simple way of knowing just how much oil is out there and whether or not we're really nearing peak. We have no idea how much oil OPEC really has because they won't let anyone independently audit their fields.

Nothing is going to change until change is forced on us. The only question is how it will happen. Will prices remain high and keep inching higher until it creeps us into a recession? Or will there be a catalyzing event that makes prices go up overnight? After Hurricane Katrina Matt Simons (biggest energy investment banker in the world) said that any big supply disruption in the world could send demand for oil past supply by 3 to 5%, which would easily send the price of oil up by 5 to 10 tens. He said that in regards to the coming winter. Thankfully the winter is past and it was a warm one. But that statement is just as true now, and this time we are coming up on the summer driving season.

Just look at the % increases we saw with gasoline during the 73 oil crisis. Just you wait for gas to hit $10 a gallon +. I predict it will happen in less than 5 years one way or the other. I tried to make that bet with my father and put cash on it but he declined. He thinks the whole Peak Oil thing is bunk. That's ok though. I put the money into silver instead and I've made a big profit. I was buying it at $7 and change. It's over $12 now. :D

For all the people wishing gas prices would go down: be careful what you wish for. You just may get it. The only way we're going back down to less than $2 a gallon gasoline ever again is with the help of a huge recession. So everyone will have cheap gasoline to buy, it's just that many wont have a job to drive to. That's conservation! Demand destruction. Gotta love it.

Here's an interesting take on the potential effects of higher or lower gas prices, especially as relates to Colorado and a proposed temporary suspension of gas taxes:

http://www.denverpost.com/quillen/ci_3732414

Just look at the % increases we saw with gasoline during the 73 oil crisis. Just you wait for gas to hit $10 a gallon +. I predict it will happen in less than 5 years one way or the other. I tried to make that bet with my father and put cash on it but he declined. He thinks the whole Peak Oil thing is bunk. That's ok though. I put the money into silver instead and I've made a big profit. I was buying it at $7 and change. It's over $12 now. :D

For all the people wishing gas prices would go down: be careful what you wish for. You just may get it. The only way we're going back down to less than $2 a gallon gasoline ever again is with the help of a huge recession. So everyone will have cheap gasoline to buy, it's just that many wont have a job to drive to. That's conservation! Demand destruction. Gotta love it.

There was a paper by a professor at Princeton that estimated that the world passed the peak in December last year. It was based on long-term statistics on oil production and an estimate on the total reserves, half of which have now been used (according to the study). I guess we will find out sooner rather than later if that is the case; we probably only need the numbers for 2006. Certainly the markets behave as if the world is past peak. It's not like there haven't been hurricanes in the southern US and trouble in Nigeria before, but now, nobody seems to be able to compensate for those by increasing production.

Doesn't the Iranian president seem like a wonderful, enlightened person? I just hope that the things he says are simply the colorful rhetoric that his constituency expects. If he is actually serious, 'huge recession' may turn out to be a very mild way to put it.

You're talking about Ken Deffeyes. He wrote the first mainstream Peak Oil book back in 2000.

Iran is a real pickle. The average American doesn't realize how desperate the situation is. If the US (or any of its allies, like Israel) actually attack them, god help us.

As far as us being past peak now, it's a good bet. Production has been relatively flat for the past couple of years. Christ Srebowski's mega project update has been saying for more than a year that before the end of 2007 demand would outpace supply. So either we have a shorage before the end of next year, or there will be a recession to make demand go down. Right now, it's looking like it will really be before the end of this year. I dont' know if he has updated his projections since Cantarell and Burgan have peaked.

Last year both the second and third largest oil fields in the world peaked and are going into terminal decline. I think I heard they're both estimated to suffer at least 8% decline rates this year. Why don't they talk about that in the news when they mention high gas prices?

wait until the price of oil at the pumps drops back to a more cost comfort zone and go back to sleep. Until the next time..........


I figure with all the talk of "peak oil" over the last 20 years that this is "it"... it ain't ever going back down to a comfort zone level so we'd better start getting used to it. As in nature those creatures that can't adapt to external change will just be weaned out of the gene pool....until fusion power of course.. :)

Glad I got my bikes and some skills to fix them..i have a 100 comfortable mile radius of travel no matter what happens. Our big worries will be cost of food/plastics/etc.. well at least we're ahead of the game..

To me, the scariest thing is a large upsurge of "clueless" cyclists hitting the streets without training or an understanding of what they are getting themselves into.

Geez, if I were them I'd sell my land yacht and buy a $2500 Civic before I'd start pawning off all my worldly possessions just to get to the end of the week. And that's not even getting into replacing the car with a bike. Gas will always go up in price over time, and eventually you'll run out of "stuff".

Bingo!

where have we seen this kind of behavior before? oh yeah, drug addicts.

Make sure you have a locking gas cap. We can expect to find fuel thefts rising. ;)

Make sure you have a locking gas cap. We can expect to find fuel thefts rising. ;)
I'll be locking the cap on the peanut butter jar. That's my main fuel! :) Ain't nobody better mess with it either.

Make sure you have a locking gas cap. We can expect to find fuel thefts rising. -Artkansas

I would not worry so much about locking gas caps here in Southern California rather than when people start to dawn on them the true value of bikes (not the purchase monetary value, rather than the sheer mobility factor of getting around) and start to really steal them. By this I mean bike jacks, violent snatching and running (or rather riding) away, ambush unsuspecting riders, etc.-just like they do today if you are wearing a gold chain, driving a car that appeals to them, or a simple joyride. Then even the excellent U-locks will be rendered useless against these desperate marginal people.

High oil prices are great to get people to stop driving, but they really suck for everyone - no matter what.

Not necessarily. car ownership and driving is actually a huge economic burden on people, they just don't realize it. If gas becomes too expensive for frivolous personal use, and people sell off or junk their cars so that few new ones are made, and find alternate transportation, they will actually have a lot more money available to pay the higher costs of goods transported using gas. So in effect gas will stop being a casually squandered personal commodity and instead will be dedicated to valuable and necessary commercial uses. As well, local manufacturing and agriculture will start to thrive again, because of the expense of freighting in goods from afar, and jobs lost in the automotive sector (which has been shrinking anyway) will be picked up by some of these other industries. That'll include green industries like windmill construction, organic farming, and others. It may be a very painful transition for some, but it is inevitably coming anyway, so better to anticipate and plan for it.

To me, the scariest thing is a large upsurge of "clueless" cyclists hitting the streets without training or an understanding of what they are getting themselves into.
It dismays me whenever I see this comment on BF. It's just wrong - the more the better. All of us started as clueless newbs and we learned from experience, or bike courses, or BF, or mentors. As cycling becomes mainstream, we'll have more political clout, better prices, more bike designs to choose among, better street and parking facilities, more workplace accomodation, and best of all, riding will be safer. That's because car drivers that now fail to notice one cyclist are going to be continually on alert when they have to share the road with 50 cyclists. Besides, if each of those new riders leaves her car at home, there'll be a lot more room on the road. Somewhere I saw an estimate that one car takes as much room as 10, maybe 15 bikes.

Did you check out the Copenhagen (http://www.vejpark.kk.dk/byenstrafik/cyklernesby/uk/index.htm) video yet?

"Americans are materilistic swine"

Look, I have no objection to saying "Some Americans are materialistic swine," but just because that's what's on CNN, doesn't make it so. You hate people without knowing them, which you're entitled to do, but some of the coolest people I know have been Americans who don't fall into excessive consumerism, do all their commuting on bikes, and carpool in their "death-traps" to the mountains. It does me little good to live car-free to the point of alienating people, since the evil isn't in making a machine that burns dead dinosaurs, but in building a lifestyle that makes people dependent on them.

Your country has a leg up on conservation and well-planned communities, and parts of mine are just as good...but all your comments have been akin to calling everyone fat because they had a news special on it that you were disgusted by. If we didn't have cheap oil, I would still make fizzy orange juice, take two pieces of homemade bread, kill and cook a chicken, and put garden-grown tomato slices on it. And don't knock dog food, owning a dog is fun, leads to more exercise for both of you, and one more good connection between living beings who would be better off not hating on each other all the time.

You don't have to like Wal-Mart, Shell Oil, and the President, but you don't have to hate average people...if they don't know any better, they're blameless. I for one still want a car for long, fast drives, because America doesn't have functioning high-speed rail...the day we do, I'll stop driving. Eurostar is great, except they still don't serve Kansas.

The other thing...don't stomp on me if you all hate car owners, I'm trying to drive less...but if cars were made to aircraft standards, we wouldn't seem so wasteful. A 1968 station wagon is scary and only served as a placeholder to the 1969 model, whereas a 1968 Cessna is practically "certified pre-owned."

"Americans are materilistic swine"

Look, I have no objection to saying "Some Americans are materialistic swine," but just because that's what's on CNN, doesn't make it so. You hate people without knowing them, which you're entitled to do, but some of the coolest people I know have been Americans who don't fall into excessive consumerism, do all their commuting on bikes, and carpool in their "death-traps" to the mountains. It does me little good to live car-free to the point of alienating people, since the evil isn't in making a machine that burns dead dinosaurs, but in building a lifestyle that makes people dependent on them.

Your country has a leg up on conservation and well-planned communities, and parts of mine are just as good...but all your comments have been akin to calling everyone fat because they had a news special on it that you were disgusted by. If we didn't have cheap oil, I would still make fizzy orange juice, take two pieces of homemade bread, kill and cook a chicken, and put garden-grown tomato slices on it. And don't knock dog food, owning a dog is fun, leads to more exercise for both of you, and one more good connection between living beings who would be better off not hating on each other all the time.

You don't have to like Wal-Mart, Shell Oil, and the President, but you don't have to hate average people...if they don't know any better, they're blameless. I for one still want a car for long, fast drives, because America doesn't have functioning high-speed rail...the day we do, I'll stop driving. Eurostar is great, except they still don't serve Kansas.
Good post, noob, and your dinner sounds pretty tasty.

But when you quote somebody, please use the quote tags and the name of the quoted one, or just hit "Reply w/ quote" beneath the post you're replying to. It's hard to read back through all the messages to figure out who the hell you're talking to or about. Thanks! :)

No prob, Rood. It was referring to litreofcola, who has a lot of good points amidst the anger, but I just want people to look beyond the "Oh My God, Americans Are Obese Evil People" documentaries, since the majority of us who don't get TV coverage actually agree with the ideals of the Founding Fathers, Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, and the Amish. Thanks for the tip!

You don't have to like Wal-Mart, Shell Oil, and the President, but you don't have to hate average people...

Heh, Shell is a Anglo-Dutch company. Europeans are also well-established in doing business with the natural resources of far away countries, which somehow do not remain very peaceful places in the process (witness Shell in Nigeria).

The price is good for this country in the long term perhaps (pushs people to give their resource use a second look, or even a first look) but it is hurting a lot of people I know, mostly poor trying to get through school and work. The rich? Don't bother them, what an extra grand in annual fuel costs matter when you or your parents make over 6 figures

The price is good for this country in the long term perhaps (pushs people to give their resource use a second look, or even a first look) but it is hurting a lot of people I know, mostly poor trying to get through school and work. The rich? Don't bother them, what an extra grand in annual fuel costs matter when you or your parents make over 6 figures

NBC had a segment featuring people complaining about the higher gas prices. One was a college student sitting behind the wheel of a large pickup truck. Another was complaing about how much money waiting in the drive-thru lane for her junk food was costing her. A little pain might do these no so rich people some good.

NBC had a segment featuring people complaining about the higher gas prices. One was a college student sitting behind the wheel of a large pickup truck. Another was complaing about how much money waiting in the drive-thru lane for her junk food was costing her. A little pain might do these no so rich people some good.

Yep, The Today show. She payed $77.74 for gas! I was thinking WTF is wrong with people. You need to get your fat butt out of that suv and start thinking about the bigger picture. You want the price to go down then start driving less is it that hard.