Living Car Free - My (admittedly controversial) view on "living car free".

...it seems to me there is no argument!
Own a Car...
Don't own a car...
Isn't it simply a matter of choice?

Sure, but all choices have consequences, and not just for yourself. There's a lot of reason to believe that everyone owning a car is a bad thing. So while you have a right to choose, others may feel they have a right to opine on your choice...after all, it affects them too.

I am a 'newbie here and don't quite understand the 'argument' as it seems to me there is no argument!
Own a Car...
Don't own a car...
Isn't it simply a matter of choice?
I am grateful for the freedom to choose.
I absolutely love to drive!

That's nice for you that you enjoy driving so much. If you hadn't noticed, most of us here do not. In fact, that is the main subject of this thread, not to mention the entire sub-forum. You did notice it was called "Living Car Free", right?

<sigh>

Once again, this forum is for discussions of living car-free or car-lite, and how to get there, how to overcome the challenges presented by such a lifestyle, etc. We don't care about how much anyone loves their car(s) or how much they love to drive them. That will just get you yelled at. (Case in point.)

Seriously, do you people go to AA meetings and talk about how much you enjoy hitting the bars? Do you visit with PETA members and argue about how tasty meat is?

My admittedly uncontroversial view of notfred is that hes a trolling moron unworthy of these intelligent and long replies.

With people constantly arguing car/no car arguments with such microscopic dissection, I stick by this - though I am admittedly not a religious man.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

If someone comes in here interested in living car free (which to me is only a small component in a much larger worldview) and they want to understand people's reasoning for choosing such, then I think we owe them an honest personal explanation and not damnation for liking cars. With some information at their disposal, perhaps they can make a decision whether or not it is a path they'd like to explore. I don't think a "troll" would come in here asking (some admittedly naïve) questions if they weren't already predisposed to becoming car free at some point and the consciousness shift that entails. Beating people up for admitting to liking driving serves no purpose other than to further alienate the bicycle transportation community. This isn't an "us versus them" subject. I don't hate people that drive and own cars. I feel sorry for some of them, but that probably goes beyond car ownership.

I am not a pious deity; I just have a different viewpoint. Say you’re a window washer on a skyscraper, and your identical twin is on the street down below you. At 20 stories up, you can see a car accident, a mugging, a couple hugging, whatever, six blocks away. Your twin on the street can’t see that, but that doesn’t make them any less intelligent than you. You just have a different point of view. Sometimes I’m the window washer, and sometimes I’m on the street. You can’t harp on someone who doesn’t have a similar point of view. The only thing you can do is invite them up and point out the sights.

I think the thing is Suez. Many American's react like one is a freak should you not enjoy cars. I agree , it is personal choice. The choice of cyclists to think driving a car, now mostly a miserable experience. Should you live in overpopulated urban areas..Should Motorists not make judgements of me in my bike lane - great. I will just have my private thoughts about what suicidal manaciacs, they appear to be.

Once again, this forum is for discussions of living car-free or car-lite, and how to get there, how to overcome the challenges presented by such a lifestyle, etc. We don't care about how much anyone loves their car(s) or how much they love to drive them. That will just get you yelled at. (Case in point.)

We need a "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING HERE" sticky on this forum. A FAQ might be good too, I'm sure among us we could have a FAQ read in a week.

Mods?

We need a "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING HERE" sticky on this forum. A FAQ might be good too, I'm sure among us we could have a FAQ read in a week.

Mods?

Well, we do have Sticky: New Forum- Living Car Free (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=62403).

Well, we do have Sticky: New Forum- Living Car Free (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=62403).

Apparently the title isn't obvious enough! Its also not a list of rule or mandate, nor it is a FAQ.

We need a "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING HERE" sticky on this forum. A FAQ might be good too, I'm sure among us we could have a FAQ read in a week.

Mods?

I disagree. Read this whole thread; it actually ended up being a very good discussion with plenty of informative posts. I liked reading it. Granted the OP stated his position a bit "harshly" but that may be what got so many people posting here.

While I don't often post in this section (Living Car free) it has fast become one of my favorites -- I'm often learning quite a bit here. Keep up the great posts everyone!

I disagree. Read this whole thread; it actually ended up being a very good discussion with plenty of informative posts. I liked reading it. Granted the OP stated his position a bit "harshly" but that may be what got so many people posting here.

This hasn't been a bad thread - we've had clear trolls before.

I rode in a car yesterday with this girl I met at an old job, and she tracked me down somhow.
Well, I hated it.. I hate driving cars, and bieng a passenger in cars. The feeling I get bieng in a seated position, in a big metal box moving at around 50 mph, is unnerving.


My admittedly uncontroversial view of notfred is that hes a trolling moron unworthy of these intelligent and long replies.

And Somone is feeding booze to these g0damn things!

My admittedly uncontroversial view of notfred is that hes a trolling moron unworthy of these intelligent and long replies.

That's outright rude. There was nothing antagonistic in notfred's original post nor in his subsequent posts, and yet you and a few others responded with name-calling. Yours is the worst though, because it's obvious from the lateness of your post that you're simply bandwagon-jumping, the kid on the playground who's late for the fight and just wants to poke his fist into the pile-up. Grow the Hell up.

notfred: Those of us who are a bit easier in our skins, and who are past the age of six, don't mind the questions and the challenges they imply. I hope you give it a try if that's the way you're leaning. I haven't driven an automobile since September of last year and I miss it not at all. I'm fortunate in the fact that I live in a city that makes it easy to get around, so I can't speak to everyone's situation, but I'm betting that at least minimizing the number of trips via motor vehicle is easier than many people assume.

That's outright rude. There was nothing antagonistic in notfred's original post nor in his subsequent posts, and yet you and a few others responded with name-calling. Yours is the worst though, because it's obvious from the lateness of your post that you're simply bandwagon-jumping, the kid on the playground who's late for the fight and just wants to poke his fist into the pile-up. Grow the Hell up.
Oh come on, the guy comes in and throws out a few insulting strawmen of what "car-free" is all about, and then doesn't stick around to watch the show? Looks like a troll to me.

Oh come on, the guy comes in and throws out a few insulting strawmen of what "car-free" is all about, and then doesn't stick around to watch the show? Looks like a troll to me.
He stayed for quite a while despite the backlash.

He stayed for quite a while despite the backlash.

Yes he did. See post #18 of this thread. If notfred is a troll, he's an inordinately well-spoken one. As to his apparent absence now, well, perhaps the ratio of considered replies to hostile invective was not to his taste.

After several people (myself included) called him out, notfred replied and apoligized for the wording and tone of his original post. Apparently some posters (like thelung) read the first post, skipped all the subsequent "long replies", and posted just to call him a troll without paying any attention to the rest of the thread. Let's add that to the rules/FAQ: read the entire thread before jumping in with a response to the first post.

I'm pretty new here but this thread is pretty distressing, but I feel like I must chime in. Perhaps everyone is arguing over too small a difference and not seeing the overall advantage. Wouldn't it be better to have more people start taking up bicycling on a part-time basis than it is to have only a small group of people taking up bicyclilng full-time? I see the way people are snapping up Priuses like crazy these days as a much better sign than in the mid to late nineties when GM & Honda were selling those 2-passenger electric cars that absolutely no one knew about.

What good is it if I'm the only person in my neighborhood who bikes 100% of the time if everyone else drives gas guzzlers? I would rather 50% of my neighbors bike or walk to errands within a 2-3 mile radius instead of driving a mile or two to do their errands. In the end, isn't the goal for most everyone here that biking culture reaches critical mass?

If anything, I feel like those who are able to live a car-free life should be helping and encouraging people to bike in forms of tips and know-hows encouragements instead of demonizing someone who is not able to live car-free. For someone who knows little about biking, it's a huge amount of work/effort to learn and apply biking into the daily routine. A little encouragement can go a long way, and change someone's life. Put-downs and demonizing someone because he or she is not able to live up 100% to an ideal may very well exlude that person from ever even begin to strive toward that ideal, ever.

Thx for listening. Happy biking ;-) I know I am... once I get a non-sucky bike, where all the gears actually works and I can actually go faster than 5mph. But that's another thread in another forum.

Wouldn't it be better to have more people start taking up bicycling on a part-time basis than it is to have only a small group of people taking up bicyclilng full-time? It's not a choice between those two options...they're both good. However, this particular forum is the" Living Car Free" forum, so naturally that gets talked about here, and people who come in and challenge it, are going to see it defended by those who practise or admire it.

This forum is about how we STRIVE to be car free. I spend a lot of time reading here and I own a car. Granted, it is a car that I share with my significant other and I only use to get to the mountains. The point is that without ideas and ideaology from this forum it would have been difficult to get there.

Cooker- do you ever wonder the percentage of people in Car Free that are actually "car free"? I bet it is less than 50% of us.

And I complete agree with the both of you, cooker & davidmcowan. There really is no winner or loser either way... biking 100% of the time is better than 50% of the time is better than 25%. But ultimately, they are all better than biking 0% of the time.

My point is, with that perspective in mind, I think that most people would rather get encouragement for their 50% car-free lifestyle from the 100% car-free gurus rather than to be chastised for it. Imagine how difficult it must be for a novice of anything to continue/grow if the teacher keeps beating/chatising him/her for not being able to be at the same level as the teacher.

I just think that there's little justification or defending that is needed for those who are lucky enough to be 100% car-free w/o a ton of hassles. I'm pretty sure that most people who come here wouldn't mind such an option if it were a viable option. And that's the key point: viable. However, those of you that are lucky enough to have that option... we can all learn from your experiences. I've been just lurking on these boards on and off, but I've learn a ton of information from all the conversations. There are a lot of threads to read, so the fewer posts I have to wade through to get to the information the better.

Also to davidmcowan... any idea where I can get hands-on bike maintenance classes/instructions? I'm in Denver also... but I'm very mechanically challenged.

My point is, with that perspective in mind, I think that most people would rather get encouragement for their 50% car-free lifestyle from the 100% car-free gurus rather than to be chastised for it. Imagine how difficult it must be for a novice of anything to continue/grow if the teacher keeps beating/chatising him/her for not being able to be at the same level as the teacher.

While that is true, there is a world of difference between a post that says, "I am not car-free, what's this all about?" and one that says, "I'm not car-free, and let me shoot down all your ideals." We've had our share of both in this forum, and generally the latter has not been welcomed.



I'm pretty sure that most people who come here wouldn't mind such an option if it were a viable option. And that's the key point: viable. However, those of you that are lucky enough to have that option... we can all learn from your experiences.

And that's what frustrates me until I want to bash my head into a brick wall. What does "luck" have to do with it? We all make our own choices, and that's what they are, choices. There is not a single aspect of living car-free that is based on luck.

Live too far from work? Move or change jobs.
Your city lacks cycling facilities or public transit? Move.
Have kids? Get a trailer, move to a place with school, shops, etc. close to home.

I could go on, but why bother. Some people will keep believing that "luck" or some magical circumstance is needed to be car-free. Others will come here to learn, will get off their butts, and work at it. Depending on your previous choices, it may take years for you to achieve a car-free or car-lite life, but luck has nothing to do with it.

I don't know why I bother, sometimes. So many people have self-defeating attitudes. Just the other day a neighbour told me I was "lucky" to be fit. I told him that luck has nothing to do with it: I eat well, I walk the dog 30 minutes each day, I workout 3 times a week, and I bike everywhere. Yeah, I'm real "lucky" not to be overweight. The same "luck" went into a 15 year relationship, owning my own business, buying a house when I was 26, and just about everything else I am happy about in my life.

I'm not saying that it is easy, and some of the hurdles requires to be car-free may will be insurmountable to some people, or at least take years to overcome. Don't delude yourself into thinking it has anything to do with "luck" or what is "viable" to you, however. It's all about your choices.

This hasn't been a bad thread - we've had clear trolls before.
I have two suggestions if you think somebody is a troll or spammer. First, look up their previous posts and see if they regularly contribute to the community or just take take take. Most trolls either are newly registered or have a history of obnoxious posts. If somebody has made good contributions on other forums, he just might be a not-troll when he comes here.

Second, question their motives. Everybody participates in forums because they get some kind of benefit. Try to find out what benefit they are getting, to know if they are a troll or not. If they do hope to learn or teach about carfree living (or just entertain us) they are not a troll. If they just like attention, negative or positive, they are.

I doubt if a sticky or FAQ would keep trolls out of a forum, but still they might be useful for other reasons. That was a real good idea, pat.

Cooker- do you ever wonder the percentage of people in Car Free that are actually "car free"? I bet it is less than 50% of us.
I'm sure that's true. And I don't apologize for owning a car (my wife's car actually). I use it as little as I can but I use it guilt free when I do drive, since I know I'm working towards less car dependence. We used to own two cars, until I started bike or bus commuting, and my personal car mileage is lower every year. If I were single I think would try to live totally car free.

I think the reason there are occasional intense threads is that people seem to come in with a chip on their shoulder, explaining why car-free isn't possible, as if they have to justify their own behaviour, and accusing the people here of being smug or arrogant. Then they wonder why they get slapped down. At least the OP in this thread was willing to listen.

I doubt if a sticky or FAQ would keep trolls out of a forum, but still they might be useful for other reasons. That was a real good idea, pat.

I can't take credit for it, it has been suggested before and is common on many forums.

While that is true, there is a world of difference between a post that says, "I am not car-free, what's this all about?" and one that says, "I'm not car-free, and let me shoot down all your ideals." We've had our share of both in this forum, and generally the latter has not been welcomed.

I don't think either notfred or bluehurry were attempting to "shoot down" the lifestyle. When someone expresses an interest in a concept with which they are unfamiliar, it's natural to question what appear to be the disadvantages. Rather than perceive it as an attack, is it not better to accept it as an opportunity to educate?



And that's what frustrates me until I want to bash my head into a brick wall. What does "luck" have to do with it? We all make our own choices, and that's what they are, choices. There is not a single aspect of living car-free that is based on luck.

My wife and I feel quite lucky to be living in a city that has very good resources and infrastructure for cycling. Would the idea to go car-less have occured to us were we living somewhere less bike-friendly? Very likely not. However, since we started going without an automobile here, odds are a subsequent move to another city would be considered with cycling and alternate transportation resources as a prime factor. Luck is really defined by the choices made afterward.

I don't think either notfred or bluehurry were attempting to "shoot down" the lifestyle..

In the case of the OP, I did. I still do, although I have come to think it was likely inadvertent.



When someone expresses an interest in a concept with which they are unfamiliar, it's natural to question what appear to be the disadvantages. Rather than perceive it as an attack, is it not better to accept it as an opportunity to educate?

I don't assume it is an attack, nor do I assume the questions show a real interest in learning. I have nether time nor interest to indulge every question, and it would be stupid to do so. I did fell I partially misjudged the OP, and therefore gave a lengthy reply later.


My wife and I feel quite lucky to be living in a city that has very good resources and infrastructure for cycling. Would the idea to go car-less have occured to us were we living somewhere less bike-friendly? Very likely not.

I can't see how the idea of going car-free can surprise anyone, at least here, with the 6 o'clock news filled daily with talk of pollution, obesity, health issues, and the cost of fuel - and at the same time how pathways are being built, light rail is expanded, etc. I would not call it common, but hardly unusual either.

I feel fortunate to live here, but not "lucky". Ottawa has great cycling and public transit because of the leadership of its elected officials, and the voices of its residents. I go to city consultations whenever I can, as do many other people. We all make a choice to live here, a choice on whom to elect, and a choice to have our voices heard (or not). I never look at a public facility and feel it just "happened" or that it was put there by some "them" which my "us" had no voice in.

With the few exceptions of purely random factors, every aspect of our lives is a direct result of a choice - our own, that of others, or a group consensus.

This whole thread reminds me of the South Park episode that was on a few weeks ago... you know, the one where everyone starts to drive hybrid cars and becomes all smug. So smug they love the smell of their own farts......

This whole thread reminds me of the South Park episode that was on a few weeks ago... you know, the one where everyone starts to drive hybrid cars and becomes all smug. So smug they love the smell of their own farts......

Of ALL the things they could have picked on us (I'm from SF) for!:rolleyes: I spent some time in Austin in the mid 90's... if ever a city loved the smell of it's own farts.:D No one I know gives a ***** if you ride a bike or drive a car. Most everyone I know rides because it's part of their culture (and they can't afford gas), not so they can jump on a soap box and trip out.

Now don't get me started on the whole "you don't own your pet you adopt it" thing. Talk about fart smellers.

.


With the few exceptions of purely random factors, every aspect of our lives is a direct result of a choice - our own, that of others, or a group consensus.

+1 patc. I agree.


Local economy suffering? Do you shop there?
Local schools failing? Do you go to board meetings?
Local parks filled with trash? Do you ever help out to clean up?
Obese, tired, suffering from heart disease? Do you ever stop eating the crap that got you there, and start moving?
Tired of sending money to the insurance man and the oil man? Do you ever stop or slow your driving?
No bike lanes, or wide shoulders? Do you lobby for them?
No greenspace? Do you want that super store or trees? Have you raised your voice about it?
Teeth falling out? Do you go to the dentist and brush?
Wishing you could live in the fantasy perfect bicycling / walking community? Do you work towards it?

Life is choices. We make them all, and for many the choices we make directly relate to the quality of our lives and lifestyles.

Yes, money, fear, greed, all play a role in what / how we all can live. A small percentage of things may actually be "beyond our control" (I haven't found any that have limited my life just yet..)

PS, I'm not car free.

well, i didn't read the entire four pages of this thread but i wanted to bring up a few things anyways.

i live car free for a few reasons. i don't like cars very much. i hate being stuck in traffic, wasting my time. they are expensive and they pollute. i admit, that presently i could not afford a car, but there have been times in my life when i could have purchased a (cheap) car. regardless of my financial situation, i still choose to live car free. i am not living my life so that i can get a car one day. (also, i generally don't buy name brand clothes either. why should i pay exhorbitant sums to advertise for already rich people?)

you're comment that "It's a lot simpler to get a $300/month raise and buy a car than it is to figure out how to ride home in the rain and the snow while carrying your groceries on the back of your bike." is frankly, asinine. if it was that "simple" to get a $300/month raise wouldn't everyone do it anyways? lots of people working in many industries (service, retail, part-time, etc) are living below or barely above the poverty line. macdonald's does not give out 300 dollar raises. nor does wal-mart or any other store that payst the majority of it's workers minimum wage. buying a good set of rain gear and a bike trailer seems pretty easy to me (not to mention cheaper).

also your comment about pollution and living bike free is a bit ridiculous. once a bicycle is manufactured the pollution it creates is negligible. minute amounts of oil, rubber and maybe brakepad dust is about it. whereas cars burn at least two kinds of fossil fuels. then there's the a/c system (though i think they are more environmentally friendly these days) and leaking engine fluids (transmission, brake, wipers). and let me know when they figure out what to do with those massive piles of used tires that are clogging up landfills or burning merrily away, sending clouds of black smoke into the atmosphere.

all that being said, i do realize that it's not practical for everyone to live car free. many families, disabled persons and those living in rural areas cannot get by without a car. however, too many people have multiple vehicles and use them needlessly. in the city, it is genereally quicker to go by bike for trips under ten kilometers.

finally, i appreciate that you weren't here just to poke a stick in the hornets nest and i'm sure next time you'll give your post a little more thought.

When I used to ride to work in the Arizona desert 27 miles each way, the best part was when other people told me I was crazy. That is worth it to me, but here is the clear answer to this issue.

Top Ten Reasons Not To Own A Car

10. Justifies the purchase of one $7,000 bike per year.
9. All bikes now fit in the garage.
8. Don’t get asked to help “them” move anymore.
7 Free membership in Accelerade 5000 gallon club.
6 Go ahead…eat the cheesecake, you earned it.
5 Free coffee mugs from the fuel use reduction committee at work
4 Enjoy being crazy. (The new title given to you by your heavy co-workers)
3 Enjoy your great grandkids!
2. What does gas cost?
and the #1 reason is…I hate that new car smell.

When I used to ride to work in the Arizona desert 27 miles each way, the best part was when other people told me I was crazy
If you did this in the summer, then, yes you are/were crazy. ;)

I do 8.5mi each way and that is reasonable, but over 25mi in 118F full sun is full nuts.

Al

I can't believe I read this whole thing!

First of all - I really appreciate everyone of you who are trying to (or have succeeded) in living car free. PERIOD. No buts. It is a good thing. (and I am sure you all have much smaller buts than car owning people...)

As we are learning, energy is expensive - and converting food to energy (instead of fat) is a pretty good thing. Propelling yourself with a bike is pretty efficient too. Saves on energy. Energy is an issue right now. Seems to make sense to save as much as we can. Why in the world would someone want you to compete for the amount of gas available? Are prices not high enough? That would be like there being 10 people in a room with 9 sandwiches - one person says - I really don't like sandwiches, and one of the others says - "that is stupid - you should fight with us over these sandwiches" If people willing choose to live a livestyle that consumes less of a non-renewable resource - you would think that thanks would be a good response.

I can't be car free - well, I can be care free, but not truck free. :rolleyes: We have our reforestation plantations - and have you ever tried to haul 20,000 seedlings on your bike? We have to have a certain amount of trucks and vehicles. Wish we didn't, but that I guess there are trade offs. I suspect I am more carbon neutral than any of you though... :D

Not sure why people would consider it strange for someone to go carless - after all, for most of history, they did, didn't they?

just my dos colones

Why in the world would someone want you to compete for the amount of gas available? Are prices not high enough? That would be like there being 10 people in a room with 9 sandwiches - one person says - I really don't like sandwiches, and one of the others says - "that is stupid - you should fight with us over these sandwiches" If people willing choose to live a livestyle that consumes less of a non-renewable resource - you would think that thanks would be a good response.
great post crtreedude. I especially liked this analogy. I'm going to steal it! :)

Thanks for the compliment!

Another thing occurred to me this morning regarding this. The average Baby Boomer has about 51,000 dollars saved up for retirement - trust me, you ain't going to do very well with this amount. But, for you youngsters out there - imagine you take the money you are saving not having a car and start stuffing it away for retirement. Even if you only got 6% on the money, if you are 25, you would retire with a cool million in the bank. Not bad for "do without" something you can live without. However, I suspect doing without money when you are 65 is harder than doing without a car when you have other means of transportation.

This is assuming that you stuff away 6,262.15 per year in savings from using a bike instead of a car. Now, if you go out and get a car so that you "sometimes" can have one - I suspect the savings drop like a stone.

So, the next time someone hastles you - just ask. "So, how much do you have in your retirement fund?" I suspect you will see someone duck and run!

What I like about the concept of living car free is it is very much taking control of your life. If having a car isn't necessary - why have it?

Agreed:

I think you hit it right on the head when you said that people really can't afford cars. I read in a magazine that 70% of all luxury cars are leased! Why? None of those folks have cash to buy the car which by the way is the hallmark of someone with money.

I think you will find that many folks who have a lot of money, have it because they chose not to spend it. Leasing is less expensive than a purchase generally. They are shrewd not cash poor.:)

I can't believe I read this whole thing!

+1

Great thread. Lots of level heads helped make a great discussion, in spite of a few zealots who would have just as soon shot the whole thing down.

How about this: living car free is the best way to enlarge your penis. It worked for me.

I think you hit it right on the head when you said that people really can't afford cars. I read in a magazine that 70% of all luxury cars are leased! Why? None of those folks have cash to buy the car which by the way is the hallmark of someone with money.

Not being able to afford the car has little to do with it. The reason that so many luxury cars are leases it that most people who buy new luxury cars like to replace them every 2-3 years (partly to avoid paying for repairs which are very expensive for luxury imports particularly in the hign income areas such cars are common). Leasing a car allows you to drive up to the dealership three years later and just hand them the keys. It also frees you from having to worry about resale value (there are probably a lot of SUV owners who wished they had leased right now).

BTW some savings accounts are now paying 4.5% APR which is a pretty good return right now so holding cash is not such a bad idea.

Pretty expensive to take that new car "hit" every time you drive out of the dealership. Most the people I know who are well off tend to buy a car cash. You can get a really good deal that way. Any way you cut it, leasing has interest charges usually. If there aren't, you are not getting the cash discount.

Usually, when negotiating, you can pick whatever method fits you life - lower interest rate - or lower price.

Pretty expensive to take that new car "hit" every time you drive out of the dealership. Most the people I know who are well off tend to buy a car cash. You can get a really good deal that way. Any way you cut it, leasing has interest charges usually. If there aren't, you are not getting the cash discount.

Usually, when negotiating, you can pick whatever method fits you life - lower interest rate - or lower price.

Its also expensive to take an older BMW to the dealership for repair (brake job $1000, major service $800).

Luxury car dealers do not offer discounts for cash. In fact discounts for cash are normally offered as an alternative to low interest loans. Luxury car manufacturers do not typically offer heavy discounts for their cars. It damages the brand and resale value. Instead they subsidize the lease, typically by inflating thre residual value of the car. If you pay cash you miss out on these subsidies. The biggest expense of car ownership is deprecation. Leasing allows you to lock in the maximum deprecation you will pay and it will often be less than the cash buyer pays. If the car holds its value better than expected, you can buy it for the residual and make some money. If the car gets stolen or totaled, a leasee is protected by Gap insurance. If you lease a BMW (or buy), all maintainance is free for the first four years except tires. This means a leasee knows his fixed costs up front.

The only person I know who has ever paid cash for a luxury car is myself. Now I lease.

Its also expensive to take an older BMW to the dealership for repair (brake job $1000, major service $800).

Luxury car dealers do not offer discounts for cash. In fact discounts for cash are normally offered as an alternative to low interest loans. Luxury car manufacturers do not typically offer heavy discounts for their cars. It damages the brand and resale value. Instead they subsidize the lease, typically by inflating thre residual value of the car. If you pay cash you miss out on these subsidies. The biggest expense of car ownership is deprecation. Leasing allows you to lock in the maximum deprecation you will pay and it will often be less than the cash buyer pays. If the car holds its value better than expected, you can buy it for the residual and make some money. If the car gets stolen or totaled, a leasee is protected by Gap insurance. If you lease a BMW (or buy), all maintainance is free for the first four years except tires. This means a leasee knows his fixed costs up front.

The only person I know who has ever paid cash for a luxury car is myself. Now I lease.

It seems like half the posts you write are aout how to buy a car. What makes you think that we care?

I, for one, don't even know the difference between buying and leasing a car. I don't need to know now, and I never will need to know. And I bet I speak for the majority on this.

You have said in other posts that you want to be carfree. Maybe it would be better if you told us about that, instead of wasting my time with all this garbage about leasing and buying cars.

One last thing on the car - lease / buy.

When I have to buy a vehicle (trucks -so does that make me care free :rolleyes: ) I send out a request for quote. Trust me - you get a lot better than any lease.

These letters go straight to the manager - no commissions are paid - and no negotiating either. They know they are competing with other dealerships too.

Most of the rich people I know do this.

You could do this with bike shops too by the way. (addressing the current audience)

My wife and I have a car, I don't ever imagine us living car free, but I love the idea. I too have an argument for financially choosing not to own a car (or multiple cars in my case). I think it was on the go by bicycle website that stated the average American spends 25% of their annual income on their automobile. 25% is just a number until you put it into context. That means for an 8 hour work day, 2 hours of your day that you work is spent just to own/operate your car. I don't spend anywhere near that myself, but I know a lot of my coworkers spend more than 25%. Just think if you went from 25% of your income to 10%, or even nothing. Then used that money to pay yourself first by depositing that money directly into a savings account. Now the first hour or two of your day you're working for yourself. Just imagine how quickly that can add up. Just a thought.