I was commuting home yesterday on a two lane, city street thats not wide enough for a car and a bike.Traffic was moderate, I was taking the whole lane and keeping up with traffic, I was going as fast as the car in front of me. Cars rarely pass other cars on this street, its too narrow and too winding.
In back of me is a woman driving an SUV who is a little impatient, but not really crowding me. The car ahead of me turns, I accelerate slightly. She floors it, and moves into the oncoming traffic lane to pass me, straight at another SUV coming straight for her. Just before she hits him head on, she dives back into the lane, swerving back and forth for a few feet, almost out of control, because of the drastic steering movement she had to make. Then, immediately, I see brake lights and the back end of her SUV pitch up because she had to stand on the brakes to stop at the stop sign.
It was a clean pass, she didn't crowd me or cut in front of me, but I'm watching this whole thing a little bemused. She almost hits another car head on and then immediately brakes as hard as she can. Why, because she has to pass a cyclist, who is going as fast as traffic.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
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yep. idiot drivers try to overtake bikes in the middle of the traffic lane, regardless of your personal cycling 'notions' that may have placed you there. Did she honk at you? Did you POWERWEAVE in front of her, to show her you were aware of her car driving tricks? Did you play all your cards up your sleeve at once? She didn't pick up on a subtle shoulder check, or steely eyed, alpha dawg glare to keep behind you? Did you do a few evasive manuvers to let her know she wasn't going to be allowed to pass? Why didn't you try to 'herd' her with your bicycle?
Sounds like your "notions" needs some reconfiguring, San Rensho. outhink the driver, transcend the mere bicycling experience, exorcise the "notions"
this is all stuff I've picked up reading A&S, and my comments may represent actual sarcasm.
Keith99
I was commuting home yesterday on a two lane, city street thats not wide enough for a car and a bike.Traffic was moderate, I was taking the whole lane and keeping up with traffic, I was going as fast as the car in front of me. Cars rarely pass other cars on this street, its too narrow and too winding.
In back of me is a woman driving an SUV who is a little impatient, but not really crowding me. The car ahead of me turns, I accelerate slightly. She floors it, and moves into the oncoming traffic lane to pass me, straight at another SUV coming straight for her. Just before she hits him head on, she dives back into the lane, swerving back and forth for a few feet, almost out of control, because of the drastic steering movement she had to make. Then, immediately, I see brake lights and the back end of her SUV pitch up because she had to stand on the brakes to stop at the stop sign.
It was a clean pass, she didn't crowd me or cut in front of me, but I'm watching this whole thing a little bemused. She almost hits another car head on and then immediately brakes as hard as she can. Why, because she has to pass a cyclist, who is going as fast as traffic.
There is something I've been meaning to say on this board for a while and this post seems an ideal one for the comment.
Why do you assume it was because she had to pass a cyclist? She very well could have been the kind of jerk that had to pass anyone!
BTW the reason I thought the descripion in this post was such that if the same had happened to me on a bike my first thought might very well have been the same as the posters. While writing I realized I had something very similar, though not as extreem happen on a road where I used to cycle as a kid (53 now). Instead of curves it has two rises you can not see over. Passing is idiotic and after the 1/2 mile of this section there is a stop where traffic splits. In short nothing to gain. Yup some idiot had to fly past me. But I was in my SUV. (Hey a SUV is good for carrying stuff, bikes and 200+ pounds of dogs). No visibility, risk of death. Oh yea almost forgot I do not drive slowly.
scarry
This guy was not so lucky, and he killed the driver of the oncoming car. All in a neighborhood where driving over 25 mph is futile.
When I see this, I think about all the ranting and raving about cyclists running stop lights, etc.
I'd like to see a cyclist cause this kind of damage.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/28/BAGLVIH3KJ1.DTL
http://sfgate.com/c/pictures/2006/04/28/ba_castrofire1_3.jpg
A fiery crash in San Francisco's Castro District on Thursday night killed one person, injured another and sent flames racing along a line of parked cars, leaving at least eight vehicles gutted.
Witnesses said a Buick heading south on Castro Street ran a red light at Market Street, swerved into the northbound lane and slammed into a BMW that was turning right to go into a parking lot for the Castro Theater at 6:38 p.m.
Both cars burst into flames, and the BMW was knocked into a parked car, while the Buick careened into at least three more cars, said Thomas Willows, a Lower Haight resident. The fire spread quickly down the line of unoccupied vehicles and several motorcycles.
Helmet Head
I was commuting home yesterday on a two lane, city street thats not wide enough for a car and a bike.Traffic was moderate, I was taking the whole lane and keeping up with traffic, I was going as fast as the car in front of me. Cars rarely pass other cars on this street, its too narrow and too winding.
In back of me is a woman driving an SUV who is a little impatient, but not really crowding me. The car ahead of me turns, I accelerate slightly. She floors it, and moves into the oncoming traffic lane to pass me, straight at another SUV coming straight for her. Just before she hits him head on, she dives back into the lane, swerving back and forth for a few feet, almost out of control, because of the drastic steering movement she had to make. Then, immediately, I see brake lights and the back end of her SUV pitch up because she had to stand on the brakes to stop at the stop sign.
It was a clean pass, she didn't crowd me or cut in front of me, but I'm watching this whole thing a little bemused. She almost hits another car head on and then immediately brakes as hard as she can. Why, because she has to pass a cyclist, who is going as fast as traffic.
Sometimes, getting these kind of results is the best you can do when you encounter someone like this woman. Perhaps she was late to her chemo treatments. Who knows?
While we will never know if she passed you because you were a bicyclist, or she would have passed anyone going your speed, if she passed you simply because you were a bicyclist, this would be a perfect example of The Notion manifested in a driver.
The sad thing is that many drivers blame cyclists for situations like this. After all, if you weren't there, then she wouldn't have had to pass you, and therefore would not have had this head-on close call. But that's just more Notion thinking at work. Maybe if she has a few more encounters with cyclists like you, she'll figure it out. We can hope. But what else can we do? (That's a serious question; I don't mean to imply there is nothing else we can do.)
patc
There is something I've been meaning to say on this board for a while and this post seems an ideal one for the comment.
Why do you assume it was because she had to pass a cyclist? She very well could have been the kind of jerk that had to pass anyone!
Exactly! Chances are she was just an irresponsible driver who took advantage of the "gap" she perceived to pull a stupid stunt. She may well also be the type who dashes into small gaps when when wants to change lanes, etc. Of course, this is all heresy to some cycling advocates who want to convince us that its "us" vs. "them", with "them" being part of some anti-cycling conspiracy.
flipped4bikes
Exactly! Chances are she was just an irresponsible driver who took advantage of the "gap" she perceived to pull a stupid stunt. She may well also be the type who dashes into small gaps when when wants to change lanes, etc. Of course, this is all heresy to some cycling advocates who want to convince us that its "us" vs. "them", with "them" being part of some anti-cycling conspiracy.
Hmmm. The OP stated he was taking the whole lane. Granted, the woman may have been passing all the cars behind the bicyclist. But it seems to me she wanted to "race" to the stop sign. Why? Because she wanted to avoid waiting for the bicyclist to get going again at the stop sign...:rolleyes:
chipcom
you were aware of her car driving tricks[/i]
Now theres a good subject for a new thread 'Top Ten Stupid Car Tricks'
chipcom
Exactly! Chances are she was just an irresponsible driver who took advantage of the "gap" she perceived to pull a stupid stunt. She may well also be the type who dashes into small gaps when when wants to change lanes, etc. Of course, this is all heresy to some cycling advocates who want to convince us that its "us" vs. "them", with "them" being part of some anti-cycling conspiracy.
+1
chipcom
Hmmm. The OP stated he was taking the whole lane. Granted, the woman may have been passing all the cars behind the bicyclist. But it seems to me she wanted to "race" to the stop sign. Why? Because she wanted to avoid waiting for the bicyclist to get going again at the stop sign...:rolleyes:
And you know this how, oh great mind reader? I see cars pass other cars and trucks like this all the time...so unless you have some bit of psychic information that the rest of us mortals are not privy too, you don't know what she was thinking any more than any of us know what GWB is thinking at every given moment.
OK there is one exception...my mind is easily read - at any give moment one can see the little cloud of thought hovering over my head with one simple phrase in it 'MMM DONUTS!'
patc
Hmmm. The OP stated he was taking the whole lane. Granted, the woman may have been passing all the cars behind the bicyclist. But it seems to me she wanted to "race" to the stop sign. Why? Because she wanted to avoid waiting for the bicyclist to get going again at the stop sign...:rolleyes:
I don't think you see the distinction I was making (well, agreeing with, actually).
Think of it this way. A women gets mugged in a dark alley. Was it a crime of opportunity? Was it a misogynist crime? Was it a hate crime, since she was a lesbian? From only the second sentence in this paragraph you don't know what motivated the crime.
So, going back to the OP, I see an impatient women who pulls a stupid stunt to get a wee bit ahead on the road. We do not know that she is a cyclist-hater, habitually drives unsafely around cyclists, or has anti-cycling views. We do not know if she is educated about traffic laws and the rights of bikes on the road, or if she cares one way or another about the law. All we know is that she saw an opportunity to get ahead a few feet, and took it. Even if this was caused by a fear that being behind a cyclist would slow her down it does not prove anti-cycling sentiment, just reckless driving. So , then:
Why do you assume it was because she had to pass a cyclist? She very well could have been the kind of jerk that had to pass anyone!
Helmet Head
Of course, this is all heresy to some cycling advocates who want to convince us that its "us" vs. "them", with "them" being part of some anti-cycling conspiracy.
Really? I've never encountered a cycling advocate like that. Do you know of any on this forum?
San Rensho
There is something I've been meaning to say on this board for a while and this post seems an ideal one for the comment.
Why do you assume it was because she had to pass a cyclist? She very well could have been the kind of jerk that had to pass anyone!
Why? First, she didn't attempt to pass any cars after she got past me, and she had cars in front of her after she stopped at the sign. Second, this street is one block from my house, I've been cycling and driving on this street daily for over ten years and I can honestly say that in that time I have never seen a car attempt to pass another car that was moving, cars that are stopped, yes, but never one that is moving no matter how slow they are going, and believe me, there are some very slow drivers on this street. I'm not saying its never happened, I just haven't seen it.
So if I am going as fast as traffic, and cars rarely pass on thias street, then I don't think I'm making an errant assumption that the only reason she would pass me is because I am a cyclist.
Helmet Head
Why? First, she didn't attempt to pass any cars after she got past me, and she had cars in front of her after she stopped at the sign. Second, this street is one block from my house, I've been cycling and driving on this street daily for over ten years and I can honestly say that in that time I have never seen a car attempt to pass another car that was moving, cars that are stopped, yes, but never one that is moving no matter how slow they are going, and believe me, there are some very slow drivers on this street. I'm not saying its never happened, I just haven't seen it.
So if I am going as fast as traffic, and cars rarely pass on thias street, then I don't think I'm making an errant assumption that the only reason she would pass me is because I am a cyclist.
What astonishes me is how much resistance there is here to believing this to be true.
Just how deep are you people digging your heads in the sand, and for crying out loud, why???
San Rensho
What astonishes me is how much resistance there is here to believing this to be true.
Just how deep are you people digging your heads in the sand, and for crying out loud, why???
Thank you, Helmet Head.
What is it about this forum that brings out the contrarians? I thought people would say, yeah, that happens to me too all the time, instead it "No you're wrong!"
chipcom
Thank you, Helmet Head.
What is it about this forum that brings out the contrarians? I thought people would say, yeah, that happens to me too all the time, instead it "No you're wrong!"
It's not about being contrary, it is about being factual, accurate and fair. You don't know what the woman was thinking any more than anyone else. If you and HH had more driving experience, perhaps you'd realize that this is not uncommon at all. Indeed, I find my commute by bike much less stressful than my commute by truck...I encounter more idiots in the truck pulling stupid stunts similar to the one you experienced.
Nobody takes cycling advocates seriously when they come off like some picked on minority that sees conspiracies against them in every corner. How seriously do you take the militia nuts and their government conspiracy theories? We don't want to come off looking like them, savvy?
flipped4bikes
And you know this how, oh great mind reader? I see cars pass other cars and trucks like this all the time...so unless you have some bit of psychic information that the rest of us mortals are not privy too, you don't know what she was thinking any more than any of us know what GWB is thinking at every given moment.
OK there is one exception...my mind is easily read - at any give moment one can see the little cloud of thought hovering over my head with one simple phrase in it 'MMM DONUTS!'
Donuts- that's almost a good excuse! :D OK, so I didn't read her mind, I divined it. Still I keep going back to the cyclist taking the whole lane. I'm not saying that I prescribe to the motorists hate cyclist conspiracy, but I would think it's more likely that one would pull that stunt with a bicyclist than with another car.
Bekologist
Well, it happens to me often, San Rensho, because I actually RIDE in traffic regularily, but aggressive passing and the like never appears to happen to the resident pontificator of A&S, MR. HEAD.
This is as far as i can tell, by all his " Ride like me, transcend traffic, let my 'notions' set you free'
" self-delusion he's always feeding this thread.
Helmet Head
Nobody takes cycling advocates seriously when they come off like some picked on minority that sees conspiracies against them in every corner.
Who said or implied anything about a conspiracy? Who said or implied anything about cyclists being some kind of picked on minority? You say "it is about being factual, accurate and fair", yet you read so much into what others are saying, apparently out of thin air. That's not factual, accurate or fair.
There are people, who are conspiring with no one, who simply do not believe cyclists have the same right to the road as vehicle drivers. Some of these people are cyclists. I would go so far as to say most cyclists believe this. But that's beside the immediate point here. The point here is that some of these people are motorists who believe this strongly enough to actually treat cyclists differently from other drivers. Gene started a thread about one incident he had with such a motorist a week or two back. Now we have this one. No one is saying there is an example of this at every corner. But they do exist. Without referring to conspiracy theories and other explanations regarding what others are saying that exist only in your mind, can you explain why are you so resistant to acknowledging this?
Keith99
Donuts- that's almost a good excuse! :D OK, so I didn't read her mind, I divined it. Still I keep going back to the cyclist taking the whole lane. I'm not saying that I prescribe to the motorists hate cyclist conspiracy, but I would think it's more likely that one would pull that stunt with a bicyclist than with another car.\
I agree it is more likely with a bike than a car, but a lot of that has nothing to do with it being a 'bike' vrs it being a 'car' in any political sense. The bike is:
Smaller
Slower
Obstructs the view less
All 3 make it easier to pass, the second gives a greater reason to pass.
Note that all the above also mean more cars pass a bike in a safe manner also. There are times when one can safely pass a bike when you could not do the same with a car simply because you have an unobstructed view of the road.
noisebeam
Anothers reason to pass a cyclist vs. a motor vehicle even when they are not currently slowing the flow of traffic (such as downhill or approaching slowing due to stop light) is that they tend/likely to slow traffic at a later point.
Al
flipped4bikes
\
I agree it is more likely with a bike than a car, but a lot of that has nothing to do with it being a 'bike' vrs it being a 'car' in any political sense. The bike is:
Smaller
Slower
Obstructs the view less
All 3 make it easier to pass, the second gives a greater reason to pass.
Note that all the above also mean more cars pass a bike in a safe manner also. There are times when one can safely pass a bike when you could not do the same with a car simply because you have an unobstructed view of the road.
Agreed. But if the cyclist is going as fast as traffic, the butthead driver overestimated points #1 and #3. She tried to gain advantage but miscalculated oncoming traffic and the distance to the stop sign. And I call her a butthead not because she did it to a bike, but that she did it, period.
Helmet Head
I agree it is more likely with a bike than a car, but a lot of that has nothing to do with it being a 'bike' vrs it being a 'car' in any political sense. The bike is:
Smaller
Slower
Obstructs the view less
All 3 make it easier to pass, the second gives a greater reason to pass.
Note that all the above also mean more cars pass a bike in a safe manner also. There are times when one can safely pass a bike when you could not do the same with a car simply because you have an unobstructed view of the road.
Right.
And because it's often safer and easier to pass a bike than a car, sometimes even in situations where these differences are not relevant (cyclist keeping up with traffic, good visibiity, enough width to safely pass a car, etc.), motorists will pass a bike where they would not pass a car, or even a motorcycle.
For these motorists, the very idea of following a cyclist seems so wrong that they feel compelled to pass, regardless of the situation.
noisebeam
For these motorists, the very idea of following a cyclist seems so wrong that they feel compelled to pass, regardless of the situation.
But there is the point I made above and also that some people don't want to follow a cyclists due to personal fears about potentially hurting cyclist, or more likely getting the 'potental issue' out of sight and mind and going back to 'mindless' lower stress driving.
Of course if a motorist does this, they should not create an even more unsafe condition, but here misjudgements can occur.
Al
Helmet Head
Anothers reason to pass a cyclist vs. a motor vehicle even when they are not currently slowing the flow of traffic (such as downhill or approaching slowing due to stop light) is that they tend/likely to slow traffic at a later point.
Al
That's a good point too. This "thinking ahead" is similar to why one might pass a slow vehicle on a 2-lane highway even though that vehicle is following 2 or 3 more slow vehicles. You might have to pass each one one at a time, until you can finally pass the truck that's slowing everyone down.
This is another reason why I like to use a mirror to know when someone is approaching from behind. I find that if I do something to communicate to them that I know they're there, it seems to reassure them that as soon as there is an opportunity to do so, I will get out of the their way (so there is no need to pass me right now).
Helmet Head
some people don't want to follow a cyclists due to personal fears about potentially hurting cyclist, or more likely getting the 'potental issue' out of sight and mind and going back to 'mindless' lower stress driving.
Another good point, Al. This "you make me nervous because I might kill you" sentiment was conveyed by the host and numerous callers on the Rick Roberts radio talk show recently in San Diego. But for this, again, I find communication (a smile, a slow/stop hand signal, a wave, a nod, etc.) to be surprisingly effective at reassuring them I know what I'm doing, I know what they're doing, and everything is going to be fine. It doesn't mean they can go back to mindlessness, but it does seem to help them not be so nervous. Human-to-human connecting out there in traffic is an important aspect of safe and comfortable traffic cycling.
chipcom
Donuts- that's almost a good excuse! :D OK, so I didn't read her mind, I divined it. Still I keep going back to the cyclist taking the whole lane. I'm not saying that I prescribe to the motorists hate cyclist conspiracy, but I would think it's more likely that one would pull that stunt with a bicyclist than with another car.
Now that I can agree with. From the perspective of a driver, I think it has more to do with the fact that drivers underestimate the speed of a bicycle while underestimating the size of the gap. Combine that with their usual impatience and you see stupid stunts like this. But, some like to pretend they are mind-readers and twist every incident into some anti-bicycle conspiracy. I dealt with the same types of zealots in the NRA, in politics (noooo, ya think?), and even in my old shooting club (I know the rangemaster has it in for me, dammit!). Yeah, some people got it in for anything on a bicycle, but them folks are a tiny minority and probably too dumb to actually organize anything resembling a conspiracy. But I'm sure HH wakes every night in a cold sweat thinking that the black cars are watching him!
San Rensho
\
I agree it is more likely with a bike than a car, but a lot of that has nothing to do with it being a 'bike' vrs it being a 'car' in any political sense. The bike is:
Smaller
Slower
Obstructs the view less
All 3 make it easier to pass, the second gives a greater reason to pass.
Note that all the above also mean more cars pass a bike in a safe manner also. There are times when one can safely pass a bike when you could not do the same with a car simply because you have an unobstructed view of the road.
Good point, and I agree with you that there is definitely something about passing a bike because you can see past it so easily, but I still have to think there is something about cagers that makes them have to pass a bike at any cost.
Here, the woman put herself and another car at grave risk of a head on crash to get past me. (and to those contrarian, car driver apologists out there that will say "Well, maybe she didn't see the on coming SUV", how could she not, a bicycle hardly interferes with your vision)
I was going as fast as traffic, so I wasn't slowing her down, and she had to stop at a stop sign a short distance away. Theres got to be something else going on here to make her take the risk of killing herself or someone else just to pass a bicycle. I think part of it is the self-centered, me, me,me mentality of many drivers.
flipped4bikes
Here, the woman put herself and another car at grave risk of a head on crash to get past me. (and to those contrarian, car driver apologists out there that will say "Well, maybe she didn't see the on coming SUV", how could she not, a bicycle hardly interferes with your vision)
I was going as fast as traffic, so I wasn't slowing her down, and she had to stop at a stop sign a short distance away. Theres got to be something else going on here to make her take the risk of killing herself or someone else just to pass a bicycle. I think part of it is the self-centered, me, me,me mentality of many drivers.
Exactly. And this is coming from the OP...:)
chipcom
I think part of it is the self-centered, me, me,me mentality of many drivers.
Bingo! Give that man a cigar! Actually, you can change the word drivers to Americans in general, maybe even humans in general. One example - going shopping...I swear I have had more close calls caused by biddies with shopping carts than anything a mere car could do. :eek:
Helmet Head
I find the "me, me, me" argument to be used all too often to shirk personal responsibility. It's about blaming others, this time in the guise of "them" being "too selfish". I find the more selfish people are, the more predictable and easy to deal with they are. I expect drivers in particular to be thinking "me, me, me", and work with it, rather than against it.
It's the ones who insist on being accomodating who sometimes irritate me, though I've learned to deal with them pretty well as well.
San Rensho
I find the "me, me, me" argument to be used all too often to shirk personal responsibility. It's about blaming others, this time in the guise of "them" being "too selfish". I find the more selfish people are, the more predictable and easy to deal with they are. I expect drivers in particular to be thinking "me, me, me", and work with it, rather than against it.
It's the ones who insist on being accomodating who sometimes irritate me, though I've learned to deal with them pretty well as well.
Oh, so now its MY fault, I'm shirking personal responsibility? Tell me what responsibility I am shirking, what could I have done differently in that situation. I was a completely passive observer of this whole thing, she didn't make me change my cycling behavior at all. I didn't miss a pedal stroke during the whole incident. So if I did nothing, how can it be my fault?
Your comments never cease to amaze me, I really think you do it just to goad people.
chipcom
Oh, so now its MY fault, I'm shirking personal responsibility? Tell me what responsibility I am shirking, what could I have done differently in that situation. I was a completely passive observer of this whole thing, she didn't make me change my cycling behavior at all. I didn't miss a pedal stroke during the whole incident. So if I did nothing, how can it be my fault?
Your comments never cease to amaze me, I really think you do it just to goad people.
Now that I can agree with. From the perspective of a driver, I think it has more to do with the fact that drivers underestimate the speed of a bicycle while underestimating the size of the gap.
I think the speed thing can be a real problem. I geet some help there as I usually am in some kind of kit so I look more like a racer than a cruiser, but it still happens to me quite a bit. They think they know how fast bicyclists go and all of a sudden it's "D@mn how thd he get here so fast". I'll bet it is even worse for those who are in street or beach clothes and really hammering.
Keith99
I find the "me, me, me" argument to be used all too often to shirk personal responsibility. It's about blaming others, this time in the guise of "them" being "too selfish". I find the more selfish people are, the more predictable and easy to deal with they are. I expect drivers in particular to be thinking "me, me, me", and work with it, rather than against it.
It's the ones who insist on being accomodating who sometimes irritate me, though I've learned to deal with them pretty well as well.
I do pretty well with either. It is when I can't figure out which I'm dealing with that I have a hard time. ANd of course if part of that dance involved me slowing or stopping and then speeding back up then they are confused too. That is the time to waive them through if possible.
Helmet Head
Oh, so now its MY fault, I'm shirking personal responsibility? Tell me what responsibility I am shirking, what could I have done differently in that situation. I was a completely passive observer of this whole thing, she didn't make me change my cycling behavior at all. I didn't miss a pedal stroke during the whole incident. So if I did nothing, how can it be my fault?
Your comments never cease to amaze me, I really think you do it just to goad people.
Sorry! Looking back I realize how it might appear that I was implying that, because the "me, me, me" argument is often used to shirk responsibility, that's what you were doing. However, I think your not being responsible for what happened here is quite clear to everyone, and is not even an issue, so you had no responsibility to shirk! No way was I trying to blame you for any of this. This is a great example of how easy it is to misunderstand each other in this type of interaction. So much needless arguing happens here because of misinterpretations.
Anyway, I just don't buy that particular explanation for the driver's behavior.
If anything, since her behavior arguably put her own "me, me, me" well-being at risk, she was hardly acting in her own interest. Several other explanations have been presented that seem much more plausible.
patc
What is it about this forum that brings out the contrarians? I thought people would say, yeah, that happens to me too all the time, instead it "No you're wrong!"
We are not saying, "you're wrong" (well, I'm not anyway). What I am saying is that the cause of her behaviour is unknown. Drivers may misjudge the speed or direction of a cyclist, may be impatient, may see the small gap around a cyclist as an opportunity, etc. While her actions are known, her motivations are not. Any statement about her motivations is a guess, an assumption.
I've met a few anti-cyclist drivers, she may have been one. Or she may not. I find it best to keep an open mind and rely on facts, not guesses.
San Rensho
We are not saying, "you're wrong" (well, I'm not anyway). What I am saying is that the cause of her behaviour is unknown. Drivers may misjudge the speed or direction of a cyclist, may be impatient, may see the small gap around a cyclist as an opportunity, etc. While her actions are known, her motivations are not. Any statement about her motivations is a guess, an assumption.
I've met a few anti-cyclist drivers, she may have been one. Or she may not. I find it best to keep an open mind and rely on facts, not guesses.
So using your logic, since we can never know what was in the mind of the woman, we shouldn't try to analyze her behavior and come to a logical hypothesis of why she did what she did? Well I will continue to try and understand it, if you don't want to, thats up to you.
Keith99
Sorry! Looking back I realize how it might appear that I was implying that, because the "me, me, me" argument is often used to shirk responsibility, that's what you were doing. However, I think your not being responsible for what happened here is quite clear to everyone, and is not even an issue, so you had no responsibility to shirk! No way was I trying to blame you for any of this. This is a great example of how easy it is to misunderstand each other in this type of interaction. So much needless arguing happens here because of misinterpretations.
Anyway, I just don't buy that particular explanation for the driver's behavior.
If anything, since her behavior arguably put her own "me, me, me" well-being at risk, she was hardly acting in her own interest. Several other explanations have been presented that seem much more plausible.
I a 'me me me' attitude on her part could in fact play a part in her actions. You just have to add in some bad judgement. The 'me me me' is still there in someone who is not willing to wait 5 seconds and even puts themself at risk. It is just that a bit of stupidity is needed to go with it.
Keith99
Why? First, she didn't attempt to pass any cars after she got past me, and she had cars in front of her after she stopped at the sign. Second, this street is one block from my house, I've been cycling and driving on this street daily for over ten years and I can honestly say that in that time I have never seen a car attempt to pass another car that was moving, cars that are stopped, yes, but never one that is moving no matter how slow they are going, and believe me, there are some very slow drivers on this street. I'm not saying its never happened, I just haven't seen it.
So if I am going as fast as traffic, and cars rarely pass on thias street, then I don't think I'm making an errant assumption that the only reason she would pass me is because I am a cyclist.
Sorry I missed this one earlier. Sounds like you have good reasons to think it could be just because you were on a bike. I'd like to point out that in this post you DID NOT make any claim that she did it cuz she hates bikes, just correlation. No us vrs. them stuff, unlike some posters. You just note what she did. It fits nicely for the general jerk possibility I mentioned in my first post. If it turns out that is the "motivation" then it is an excellent example of how bike riders are at greater risk from jerks.
On the contrarian side I guess I should point out that her not passing any cars after passing you really does not mean much. She had a very close call in passing you. Anyone except a total idiot learns at least a little from their mistakes and is apt to restrict this kind of behaviour for a while. If we are all lucky the lesson may even last a while. But sadly I doubt it.
I also should point out I was the first contrarian and my first post pointed out that in this case it does seem that an initial reaction of this happened solely because he was on a bike is not unreasonable and here I'll add may even be completely correct, perhaps even including a 'political adgenda behind it. I picked this time to post in part because I felt San Rensho was NOT being a jerk in his position and this was a chance to point out the conclusions that are jumped to (many far more extreme than any on this thread) are almost always unproveable and often without basis.
Please folks do not read more into what San Rensho says than what he says.
Helmet Head
I a 'me me me' attitude on her part could in fact play a part in her actions. You just have to add in some bad judgement. The 'me me me' is still there in someone who is not willing to wait 5 seconds and even puts themself at risk. It is just that a bit of stupidity is needed to go with it.
Agreed. That's exactly my point. The problem isn't the "me, me, me" aspect, it's the lack of judgment, and stupidity.
patc
So using your logic, since we can never know what was in the mind of the woman, we shouldn't try to analyze her behavior and come to a logical hypothesis of why she did what she did? Well I will continue to try and understand it, if you don't want to, thats up to you.
I did not say that we should not try to understand her behaviour, but that we are unable to based on the information we have. Speculation is one thing, a hypothesis framed from known facts and logical inferences another. With the data we have here any comments on her motivations is speculation, and any "understanding" based on speculation is foolishness.
I don't know how to be more clear about this. You may agree or not, that is your prerogative, no need to get snide about it.
Helmet Head
I did not say that we should not try to understand her behaviour, but that we are unable to based on the information we have. Speculation is one thing, a hypothesis framed from known facts and logical inferences another. With the data we have here any comments on her motivations is speculation, and any "understanding" based on speculation is foolishness.
I don't know how to be more clear about this. You may agree or not, that is your prerogative, no need to get snide about it.
For some real clarity about what Pat means by foolishness, look no further than his first foolishly speculative post (#6) in this thread:
Chances are she was just an irresponsible driver who took advantage of the "gap" she perceived to pull a stupid stunt. She may well also be the type who dashes into small gaps when when wants to change lanes, etc. Of course, this is all heresy [not to mention foolish speculation] to some cycling advocates who [Pat foolishly speculates without any basis whatsoever] want to convince us that its "us" vs. "them", with "them" being part of some anti-cycling conspiracy.
CommuterRun
Here's what I see as a driver and, primarily, a cyclist:
When I'm driving below the speed limit for a particular stretch of road, I often get passed, but very rarely is it an unsafe pass.
When I'm driving the speed limit for a particular stretch of road, I sometimes get passed, but very rarely is it an unsafe pass.
When I'm cycling I always get passed, of course, but the incidents of unsafe passing rise dramatically. As if the drivers passing me cannot see past me. I've had drivers pass when oncoming drivers in the other lane had to come to a complete stop to avoid a collision. Drivers have passed me in blind curves, even after I signalled them to wait because I had the better sight lines and could see there was another vehicle coming. I even had one DS pass after I had signalled a left turn, but this is so exceptional it's hardly worth mentioning.
Because of these experiences in or on different vehicle types, I am convinced there are a lot of non-cycling drivers out there that operate on a "Bicycle, slow, must pass now," mentality. This is regardless of the actual speed of the cyclist. I think he could be doing 50 in a 45 and the non-cycling driver is programmed to think, "Bicycle, slow."
However, that being said, the majority of the drivers I see are very good to excellent drivers, who will wait until the oncoming lane is clear, or until we are out of that curve, or I signal that the coast is clear, and then completely change lanes to pass. Many even using their turn signals.
Keith99
When I'm cycling I always get passed, of course, but the incidents of unsafe passing rise dramatically. As if the drivers passing me cannot see past me.
I even had one DS pass after I had signalled a left turn, but this is so exceptional it's hardly worth mentioning.
However, that being said, the majority of the drivers I see are very good to excellent drivers, who will wait until the oncoming lane is clear, or until we are out of that curve, or I signal that the coast is clear, and then completely change lanes to pass. Many even using their turn signals.
A few comments.
For me driving vrs. riding now that I think about the percentage of unsafe passes is actually higher when I drive. Of course I may bias things a bit. I drive fast but not insanely fast so anyone passing me in a one lane going my way is almost be definition reckless. But I've had more than a few pass by jumping lanes on a two lanes each way road that was almsot as crazy. Of course to likely cost to me of these idiots is much higher when I'm on a bike.
I have also had a after signaling situation, but it was so crazy I think it is worth mentioning. One lane each way. I'm turning left but cars are comming. I move far to the left, as in when I clip out my left foot is on the double yellow line. This is a residential area just coming into one block of businesses. There is enough room that parking is legal on the side I am on and no cars are parked, eg practically a second lane to the right. A car coming turns right into a driveway. Before I get going a car passes me on my LEFT.
nova
Well i can tell you from experiance there are plenty of driver here who pass cyclist because they ride a bike. I had one guy blow by me just to swerve in behind a car i was behind. I was travlign at speed with the car in front of me. Was one of those toyota hybrids that look similar toa honda crx extra glass along bottom edge of the hatch back. Any any rate the guy who passed me breaked hard to aoid slamming in to the car that was infront of me. Before the bottom of the hill i ended up passing him a street before the stop light as he was moving damn slow. Hell the jerk even passed me again after i was a solid 30 feet infront of him only to slow again.
Bone head drivers are all over around me. Its like they are in a rush to get to the red light and waste gass waiting on it to change. If they paced me they would find that im pretty good at timing these lights and rarly need to wait more than 2 or 3 secounds at one.
To motorists in norton ohio you see me on a white canondale with a rack on the back stay behind me and youll need to stop far far less at lights :)
CommuterRun
That reminds me, I had one guy, quite a while back, try to pass as we were approaching a line of traffic stopped for a redlight. There wasn't room and I didn't let him back in, just left him hanging out there in the wrong lane until the light changed and made him pass me again.:)
San Rensho
Here's what I see as a driver and, primarily, a cyclist:
When I'm driving below the speed limit for a particular stretch of road, I often get passed, but very rarely is it an unsafe pass.
When I'm driving the speed limit for a particular stretch of road, I sometimes get passed, but very rarely is it an unsafe pass.
When I'm cycling I always get passed, of course, but the incidents of unsafe passing rise dramatically. As if the drivers passing me cannot see past me. I've had drivers pass when oncoming drivers in the other lane had to come to a complete stop to avoid a collision. Drivers have passed me in blind curves, even after I signalled them to wait because I had the better sight lines and could see there was another vehicle coming. I even had one DS pass after I had signalled a left turn, but this is so exceptional it's hardly worth mentioning.
Because of these experiences in or on different vehicle types, I am convinced there are a lot of non-cycling drivers out there that operate on a "Bicycle, slow, must pass now," mentality. This is regardless of the actual speed of the cyclist. I think he could be doing 50 in a 45 and the non-cycling driver is programmed to think, "Bicycle, slow."
However, that being said, the majority of the drivers I see are very good to excellent drivers, who will wait until the oncoming lane is clear, or until we are out of that curve, or I signal that the coast is clear, and then completely change lanes to pass. Many even using their turn signals.
Thank you commuter run. This is exactly the discussion I was trying to spark with my original post, I wasn't able to get that point across, but you have very clearly.
So to the others, do you believe there is a mindset among many drivers that they have to pass a bicyclist right away, at all costs and if so why.
As I said, my theory is that they are selfish jerks, but I'm not sure thats the whole picture.
I sincerely would like to figure this out because this happens to me very frequently and at least being able to understand why, even if I can't change their behavior, will help me be a safer rider.
noisebeam
So to the others, do you believe there is a mindset among many drivers that they have to pass a bicyclist right away, at all costs and if so why.
Sure, I've stated my reasons above (posts 21 and 24) why I think drivers do this and those reasons are not unreasonable for a motorist to have.
What at all costs means is a grey area though, there was not a head on collision, but almost one. Drivers know they can get away with a lot of 'close call' behavior.
There are also some drivers who are comfortable to follow cyclists for extended periods of time. I get followed (at very safe distances) several times a week for 1-1.5mi stretches. Even when there are occasional gaps available for a quick (but not aggressive) pass. I sometimes 'sense' that these following drivers are happy to follow at 25mph or so, just to temporarily check out of the 'road race.'