Commuting - What is so great about disk brakes?

I see lots of replies on these forums telling newbies to make sure they get disk brakes for best commuting performance. But I have to be honest, I don't think they are anything special. I have disks on my mountain bike and it does stop on a dime, but that bike replaced another bike running ceramic rims and v-brakes which also stopped on a dime.

Sure, the performance in wet weather is slightly better, but not enough to make me feel unsafe if I did not have them.

Moreover, I am currently running old Winnman calipers on my commuter which aren't that great at all, but I still get stopped (only using the front brake currently).

I guess my belief is that if you are relying on solely on your braking power for safety as a commuter, you will eventually get hurt no matter what brake system you are using. It is far more befeficial to understand what types of situations are likely to be dangerous and to enter them in a manner that mitigates that risk (a typical left cross situation, for instance) than to rely on a super braking system.

Comments

It is very wet here in winter and we have plenty of hills, brake fade and major brake pad and rim wear are significant problems. Last winter I wore out both front and rear rims and at least 3 sets of Koolstops (hard to estimate as I keep swapping bikes).
I find myself constantly wishing for discs throught the winter, but when things finally dry up, I no longer care.

All things being equal, even you admit they are better.
And all things being equal, why not?

What Steev said +1

I switched my front brake from cantis's to disc.
I do about 1500 ft elevation change a day, in the pitch black and pouring rain with a lot of crappy drivers. My confidence in rainy day braking went up significantly. I was going thru pads about every 5 weeks. I'v now gone a few months and still lots left on disc pads.

If your on flat ground or rollign hills, it doubt its worth the expense or weight. Also if your in a dry climate I doubt its worth it. Even in the pac north west here, it depends on your commute route. Mine involves a lot of steep roads with lights half way down them. Its the best upgrade I've done, but its definatly dependant on route.

I'm a disc brake zealot, and I'll admit that well-adjusted rim brakes can work just as well. However, my experience (with the commuting I do) is that rim brakes are rarely well-adjusted -- a week of riding is enough wear for there to be a measurable impact in stopping ability.

That's where the big difference lies. The pads on disc brakes are made of harder material, and last longer and keep their adjustment longer. Also, the geometry of disc brakes is that they still work when the pad is worn, whereas rim brakes go out of alignment as they wear, and can go into the tire sidewall if allowed to wear too much. Taking up wear with a disc brake is a simple matter of turning the adjustment knob, which has the range to go from new to completely worn, whereas the rim brake pad and cable have to be adjusted with tools once you've taken up all the slack with the barrel adjuster.

In rain or snow the performance of disc brakes is far superior to rim brakes.

A good portion of my commuting is in stop-and-go traffic, and I use the brakes a lot, and I need good brakes. For me, disc brakes are mandatory. From reading this forum it sounds like a lot of people ride in ways where they barely use their brakes, your needs may vary.

Rim brakes require too much maintenance for me. They also wear out the wheels rapidly in the winter. A wheel lasts about one winter here with rim brakes. Rim brakes also produce a lot of black dust that messes up my clothing.

From a performance standpoint, rim brakes are fine. They are lousy in rain and snow, but I don't use my brakes hard under those conditions. Mostly it is a convenioence issue for me. Since convenience is a majotr reason for riding, rather than driving, that's pretty important for me.

1) Pads last longer and are generally easier to change.
2) No wear to rims.
3) Work better in rain,way better in snow.
4) Require fewer adjustments.
5) Don't require you to clean your rims after riding in rain.
6) Still effective if your rim is out-of-true,or even tacoed.

I also wish for them in the winter, but not really when it's warm. Even if they're wet, rim brakes still stop fine. Keeping them well adjusted is the smallest part of keeping a bike in any kind of shape; if you're not keeping your brakes adjusted, you're probably not even oiling your chain (or your priorities are pretty messed up). Adjusting the brakes for me means a little spin of the top adjuster every 3 or 4 weeks, I can even do it while riding. Then every 3 or 4 monhts spin that back in and adjust the cable. maybe 90 seconds. I can keep my brakes adjusted for a grand total of probably 4 minutes work a year.

I'm still toying with the idea of putting discs up front, but I probably never will do it.

Sounds like you guys use your brakes alot.
I try to keep my brakes to a seldom used piece of safety hardware. I think my pedals are a far more useful bit of equipment.
Stoplights? If the light has been green for a while, start slowing down...allow it to turn red, and then green when you reach it.
Traffic? Know what situations you need to slow up, and which to speed through...so you aren't constantly honking your brakes and attempting to accelerate after, only to quickly brake again.

So what's great about discs?

They cost alot. (Wait, that's not good for ME...)
They weigh more. (wait...)
I will admit if you bend a rim, or go through slick mud, they could potentially be better there.

They're awesome on a downhill bike, they keep your hands from cramping up after holding the brake levers for 15 minutes straight, but I dont'think they offer much benefit on a bike for the street.

The responses pretty much sum up my feelings. They may be better (especially if you are in muddy conditions or if you weigh a lot and ride really fast with need for fast braking), but in general, they are not neccessary for your average commuter in average weather conditions.

...but in general, they are not neccessary for your average commuter in average weather conditions.

True, but neither are carbon forks, 27 speeds, and skinny high pressure tires. In fact, a lot of people don't even need brakes or gears...

Another benefit: if you break a spoke, braking is unaffected (this has happened to me twice in the past year). In fact, wheel true is no longer important as long as the tire doesn't rub on the frame. It just cuts down on the maintenance.

there is a huge advantage to disc brakes except road racing and trials riding. most everything else benefits

road racing...key is rotational weight...discs add to that, rim brakes don't. 'nuff about the road

for road regular riding, they save on rim wear, and are great for slop, as they rarely get dirty and
if they do, they burn off the crap fast.

for MTB, downhilling...cripes you need the things ! one finger action while the rest
of your hand keeps you in control. important.

for XC mtb, they don't crud up, so you get consistent braking when you need it.
some XC racers go for the rim brakes because of the rotational weight issues...but
it only matters for the supa-fit

for trials riding, they suck hard. trials riders need rim brakes for maximum control...
a lot of the use hydraulic magura rim brakes...or rim brakes and pine tar...
there is so much less spoke flex using a rim brake...rims brakes are key for trials action
stopping the tire exactly when and where it is needed

disc brakes are wicked low maintenance. no rim replacement due to brake wear...
some spoke tightening required more than rim brakes...pad wear is a looooooong time...
adjustability is easy...

WEIRD... I've never worn out a pair of rims. But I live in Flatland.

Am I missing something? Am I riding on wheels that are about to kill me?

WEIRD... I've never worn out a pair of rims. But I live in Flatland.

Am I missing something? Am I riding on wheels that are about to kill me?

It has nothing to do with hills or energy used in stopping. Up North, roads are heavily salted and sanded in the winter. The sand gets between the pads and rim and very quickly wears down the rims. It is not a problem where you live.

Paul

PErhaps the better question is: Why wouldn't I avail myself to the higher safety margin that disck brakes offer when riding in all weather on heavily trafficed routes. I don't use the ABS brakes on my motorcycle very often (once actually) but damn sure I was glad to have 'em when the time came and a semi ran the light.

no rim wear so no rim replacement every 6 months
consistent braking no matter what the weather and roads are like
masses of power and great modulation
simple to setup, adjust and use
no hassle changing/removing wheels
no rim contact so no worries with out of true wheels
no grabbing or pads wearing so fast you have to replace every 2-3 weeks (wet, gritted roads)

I liked the disc brakes on my Poprad Disc from the first time I tried them because (1) they provide much better stopping power on wet days here in the Northwest and (2) they do a better job slowing or stopping my bike (and my 200 pounds) going down hills.

This depends if you go hydro or cable
Hydrolic are freggin amazing. Response is unbeatable. Maitnence is low, and stopping power is well, 1 finger action.

Now, if you go cable disk, they are about the same as compared to V's.

There are other brake systems aswell:
"Rim Crushers" or Hydrolic Rim Brakes- I use these on my Trial bike for many reasons: Disk's will bend when you fall off an obstical and hit the brake. Weight. Response time. Stopping power.
Magura and Hope make these brake systems.
http://www.fahrrad.de/images/Felgenbremse-Magura-HS11-med.jpg

Now, if you go cable disk, they are about the same as compared to V's.


Huh ?

It has nothing to do with hills or energy used in stopping. Up North, roads are heavily salted and sanded in the winter. The sand gets between the pads and rim and very quickly wears down the rims. It is not a problem where you live.

Paul

Yup, I went from OK to my rims half destroyed in 2 really bad weeks here, where I was riding through muddy sandy gravel roads constantly. Every time I hit the brakes, it sounded like I had 100 grit sandpaper for pads. Luckily I don't have to brake much, I normally stop between zero and 4 times per 11 mile commute (depending on lights). Today was bad, I hit rush around the schools and was in stop and go for 5 minutes.

Mechanical Disks there guy.
Fluid-less and uses a cable just like your Tektro brakes.
They work well for rain, and snow, just a little bit better than V's
Mechanical (Hayes MX1)
http://www.mybike.ro/modules/catalog/images/frane/frane-hayes-mx1.jpg

Hydrolic HFX9
http://www.go-ride.com/brakes/hayes_hfx9.jpg
http://www.bikemagic.com/news/images/marin05_rockyridge_brake_bi.jpg

doubble-

Mechanical Disks there guy.


I understand what it was you were refering to. I dont understand the statement saying they are the same as V brakes.



Now, if you go cable disk, they are about the same as compared to V's.



The difference between even mech disc brakes and V brakes is dramatic. Most every proponent in this thread I would say are using mech and not hydrolic. Im using avid bb7 road disc, the difference is huge.

Every mechanical disk has either treated me with the same feeling as ive gotten from rim brakes.
I will never use mechinal's nor will I ever use v's. their freggin garbage.

no rim wear so no rim replacement every 6 months
consistent braking no matter what the weather and roads are like
masses of power and great modulation
simple to setup, adjust and use
no hassle changing/removing wheels
no rim contact so no worries with out of true wheels
no grabbing or pads wearing so fast you have to replace every 2-3 weeks (wet, gritted roads)
All of the above apply to my coaster brake equipped bikes. Granted they may not be best if I ever decide to commute up and down 4 mile hills with a 10% grade but until then they will do all of the above with zero lifetime maintenace or adjustment.

ever take the coaster off any sweet jumps?

ever take the coaster off any sweet jumps?
This is the commuter list, isn't it?

Every mechanical disk has either treated me with the same feeling as ive gotten from rim brakes.
I will never use mechinal's nor will I ever use v's. their freggin garbage.

Well I'm not sure about hayes or the competing manufacturers, but the Avid mechanicals, especially the bb7 series, is awesome. I doubt you'll find a poor review or unhappy owner of it anywhere.

Its all dependant on the situation. For commuting most recommend useing a tourer, cross, or flatbar road bike, or even a road bike. Were not talking downhill offroad racing where hydrolics come into their own. Were talking paved streets. V brakes are all thats needed for most and work perfectly well. For certain situations, disc brakes are an improvment.

This is the commuter list, isn't it?

It was a joke, you know.. .haha.

Jarery, have you ever tried hydros? I've used the Avids, and I concur, that they are infact much more responsive than the Hayes mechanical.
Once you go hydro, you never go back...

I dont need the added expense or hassle of hydros for commuting or road riding. I prefer a cable, it doesnt leak and cant run dry.

If i was dirt riding on a mtn bike, then i'd probably use them. For what I do, its not the optimum, mechanicals are in my mind. But they do sound awesome from all i've heard, just overkill for road :)

My next roadie is goin to have hydro's, I cant wait to get this bike.
Kona Dr. Dew
http://www.tooya.jp/image/05_kona_dr%20dew.jpg

I wouldn't go with hydros for inner city commuting and battling cars cause the thing's sure to get banged around and I'm not risking a leak.

All of the above apply to my coaster brake equipped bikes. Granted they may not be best if I ever decide to commute up and down 4 mile hills with a 10% grade but until then they will do all of the above with zero lifetime maintenace or adjustment.

A minor nitpick: I don't know of any coaster brakes that have "masses of power." Modulation I can't comment on, since I haven't ridden a coaster brake bicycle in many years, but I don't remember being overwhelmed by the stopping power.

I wouldn't go with hydros for inner city commuting and battling cars cause the thing's sure to get banged around and I'm not risking a leak.

Most of my mountain biking buddies transitioned to discs 5 years ago and all of us have been riding hydraulic for the past 3 and none of us have ever had a leak, or heard a story of somebody getting a leak. In fact, I was the last hold out, riding Avid mechs because I was worried about being stuck without brakes in the backwoods.

You could also get struck on the head by a meteor while on your commute, but you don't feel the need for an inch plate titanium helmet. The risk is totally unfounded. Don't let fear hold you back from some mature and effective technology.

I am hanging out for hydro STI levers :D

A minor nitpick: I don't know of any coaster brakes that have "masses of power." Modulation I can't comment on, since I haven't ridden a coaster brake bicycle in many years, but I don't remember being overwhelmed by the stopping power.
Used in combination with a good front rim brake they work quite well for almost any credible commuting scenario. In an emergency anyone can do almost an instant stop by slamming on the rear coaster and let it slide sideways. And when used alone there is Zero risk of being tossed over the handlebars by masses of braking power. Shoot, did that as a kid just for fun, and haven't had to do it in 45 years. Anyone who can't lock up the wheel with a coaster is riding a broken bike. How much "stopping power" do you need for commuting?

I have never had a problem with rim wear on my canti-brakes. Rim breaks work just fine even when your wheel is out of true. You just have to loosen them and squeeze the hand levers farther. I rarely have to adjust my brakes, and when I do, it usually doesn't take long. They are also easy to adjust on the road.

A co-worker got disk brakes and doesn't like them. If they get bent even a tiny amount, their effectiveness decreases dramatically. He's also had problems with his pads and keeping them in adjustment. And they cost more.

That said, when disk brakes work, they work better than rim brakes in adverse conditions. If I were riding in the mountains, I'd want disk brakes. Also, widespread use of disk brakes is relatively new, so it's likely we'll get improvements in quality and price.

Used in combination with a good front rim brake they work quite well for almost any credible commuting scenario. In an emergency anyone can do almost an instant stop by slamming on the rear coaster and let it slide sideways. And when used alone there is Zero risk of being tossed over the handlebars by masses of braking power. Shoot, did that as a kid just for fun, and haven't had to do it in 45 years. Anyone who can't lock up the wheel with a coaster is riding a broken bike. How much "stopping power" do you need for commuting?

Well, as with anything else, the answer to your question is "depends," isn't it? At the speeds most people will be riding at on the kind of bike that is typically equipped with a coaster brake, on the fairly level terrain common in most American cities, yes. It is quite sufficient. "Sufficient" is not synonymous with "masses of stopping power," however. I actually agree with you in that most commuter bicycles (meaning commuter bicycles in the European style) and those that ride them are best off with the simplicity and reliability of a coaster brake. That said, that's not the only way that people ride to work, and indeed it is not the only way that people should ride to work. Without getting into whether or not they are doing it for the "right" or "wrong" reasons, whatever the heck those are supposed to be, some people ride to work at higher speeds than 10 MPH. For someone riding at 15 to 20 MPH (I'm toward the lower end of this range, others are toward the upper end of it), and going faster still down hills, a coaster brake clearly doesn't have enough stopping power to make most people feel very safe at those speeds.

I'm not trying to say that a coaster brake is not more than adequate for the bicycles that typically have them installed, under most conditions and for most people. But this doesn't translate into high stopping power! I agree that disc brakes are overrated in most circumstances, but if I were wearing out a set of brake pads every month and riding down massive hills in the rain toward intersections on the way to work (or home) every day, I might seriously consider discs. I most certainly would not consider a coaster brake to be an adequate substitute under those circumstances. Even in the rain, my front brakes are more effective than a rear coaster.

Still, I'm going to be building up a three-speed, short-distance commuter bicycle for my one mile commute to school, which I will be beginning in the fall. If there's a way to retrofit a coaster brake to a three-speed hub, I am certainly interested! Sadly, I rather doubt it, so I think I'm stuck with my rim brakes for the forseeable future. A pity.

Still, I'm going to be building up a three-speed, short-distance commuter bicycle for my one mile commute to school, which I will be beginning in the fall. If there's a way to retrofit a coaster brake to a three-speed hub, I am certainly interested! Sadly, I rather doubt it, so I think I'm stuck with my rim brakes for the forseeable future. A pity.
The only way to get a coaster brake on a three speed is to buy a 3 speed wheel or hub that already has an OEM coaster brake. I don't believe there is any way to retrofit a coaster into a 3 speed hub. Try garage sales, thrift stores. No telling what bargains on complete 3 speeds you can find.
Just as a sidenote a co-worker told me he picked up a Schwinn Paramount at the local Salvation Army last week for $10; quite the deal if true.

Discs make a HUGE difference, especially if you are actually using your bike to haul heavy loads.

I've had as much as 160lbs of cargo, on rack and backpack, then add 230lbs for myself on a mountain bike....that's just obscene as far as stopping power goes. Rim brakes: nearly a block when wet under that kind of excess load. Disc brakes: about a quarter block.

Yes, it's of no concern to a light/moderate commuter, but to a person who actually hauls stuff, it's actually quite important.

The other side of it is disc brakes perform independantly of rim condition, as well as experiences less "fading" when used for longer durations. Kinda nice to have on a decline, while carrying a modest amount of cargo.

Given that I bias heavily toward the front brake when braking in dry weather, it would seem irrelevant what type of brake is on the rear. Note that the OP did not suggest doing without a front brake.

On the other hand, when riding on snow and ice, I use the rear brake exclusively. It is more of a challenge to backpedal with a coaster brake then it is to simply apply pressure with a handbrake when sliding one or more of one's feet along the snow for stability. When I was 13, I used to ride on snow and ice a lot with only a rear coaster brake -- still can't recall how I did it.

Paul

On the other hand, when riding on snow and ice, I use the rear brake exclusively. It is more of a challenge to backpedal with a coaster brake then it is to simply apply pressure with a handbrake when sliding one or more of one's feet along the snow for stability.
My experience is that a greater challenge is waiting for any response at all from rim brakes when they are packed with snow and ice.

This is the commuter list, isn't it?

You saying you don't off-road your commuter?

Taking my commuter down a massive sledding hill (no snow on it, but pretty steep and unpaved) was a blast. Lost a couple doodads though (mirror? What mirror?).

Of course it was also my only bike ;).

I think that the advice "get discs if you can" is pretty reasonable. For commuting they have no downside (weight? When you're carrying 40 lbs of stuff?). Doesn't make them required, but they're available on a lot of mid-range bikes one might be considering for commuting. On my Giant Cypress, the higher end model had better shifters, better components, AND disc brakes for about a $80-100 difference from the next model down (might have been a little less than that, I can't remember for sure).

So I'd say they're "handy" for commuting. Not required, but a nice feature.

Actually the only downside I can think of is mine require adjustment every time I remove/reinstall the wheel. For whatever reason it always winds up touching one of the pads juuuuust enough to make noise :rolleyes:. Of course, I also like a very quick response, so I keep mine adjusted so the pad-to-disc clearance is tiny. If you're happy with a little more lever travel you probably won't have this problem.

Also, ILTB: Most bikes that discs are available on NEW (of course you can build any combination you want if you're doing it yourself) the choice is disc vs. rim brakes, coaster brakes aren't usually an option on the kind of multi-speed road/mountain bikes that newbies (like myself :o) often choose for their commuter.

You saying you don't off-road your commuter?

...

Also, ILTB: Most bikes that discs are available on NEW (of course you can build any combination you want if you're doing it yourself) the choice is disc vs. rim brakes, coaster brakes aren't usually an option on the kind of multi-speed road/mountain bikes that newbies (like myself :o) often choose for their commuter.
No. I don't.

I quite agree the choice of multi speed bikes with coaster brake is limited to the point of non -existant in the U.S. It seems lots of bicyclists went straight from hot wheels to bicycles with rim brakes. The prolonged absence from the US market in any form might partly explain the relatively new interest in single speed fixed gear (with maybe brakes) over single speed with coaster brake bikes among some afficianadoes.

When I hear fixies carry on about the reliability and simplicity of fixed gear hubs it makes me think they may have no idea what coaster brakes are or about their reliability and simplicity.

My next roadie is goin to have hydro's, I cant wait to get this bike.
Kona Dr. Dew

Tip:swap the stock tires for Slickasauruses. Much nicer than the semi-knobs the current models have. And try to get the ones with reflective sidewalls.

I wouldn't go with hydros for inner city commuting and battling cars cause the thing's sure to get banged around and I'm not risking a leak.

Lots of MTB's run hydro discs with no probs. Lots of dirt bikes(motorcycle) too. I think anything spectacular enough to breach the hydro system would damage alot more than just the brakes.

BTW,ever see the plastic reservoirs on the handlebars of a sportbike?

OK, somebody dispell my unfounded concern... They look a little vulnerable to being bent. Anybody ever have a little mishap and end up with a bent disk?

Rim brakes are a little higher and mostly within the fork profile. Even if you bang them on something, they don't look like they would bend as easy as those thin disks riding low and wide.

Another benefit: if you break a spoke, braking is unaffected (this has happened to me twice in the past year). In fact, wheel true is no longer important as long as the tire doesn't rub on the frame. It just cuts down on the maintenance.

I'm not sure that's a good thing. There is more to a wheel needing to be true than just for braking. An untrue wheel is a wheel that is not tensioned properly and that can lead to spoke failure. The more spokes you break, the less even the tension and the weaker the wheel, leading to more broken spokes, etc. If you don't true the wheel, or at least even the tension, you end up shortening the life of the wheel which increases maintenance, not decreasing it.

no rim wear so no rim replacement every 6 months
consistent braking no matter what the weather and roads are like
masses of power and great modulation
simple to setup, adjust and use
no hassle changing/removing wheels
no rim contact so no worries with out of true wheels
no grabbing or pads wearing so fast you have to replace every 2-3 weeks (wet, gritted roads)

If you are replacing rims every 6 months, you need to clean your pads a bit more often.

I get consistent braking even without discs

Masses of power; maybe. Great modulation; hardly. The hydraulics on my mountain bike are grabby and like an on/off switch.

Simple to setup, unless you have to bleed hydraulics or you have a hub that isn't machined right or a rotor that is warped.

No hassle changing wheels, unless you (or some bonehead) happen to pull the lever without a block in the way. Then you'd better get out the screwdriver:eek: (Hasn't happened to me but has to others)

See my post about untrue wheels. Unless you like building wheels, I'd suggest you keep them true, even if you don't use the rim surface for braking.

No grabbing; not unless you have the hydraulics that came on my mountain bike. Those grab more than a subway full of Italian men:)