Stop at stop signs!

[manual_overide]

There is an interesting article in the paper today about cyclists not stopping at stop signs and getting hit by cars and trucks because of it.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060501/NEWS01/605010343/-1/CINCI

Please pay attention out there, people!

[ignominious]

Nothing new here. Although there it can be easy to loose focus on an approaching roadway from a MUP.

Toronto tends to put weave gates up where MUPS meet streets. Doesn't force you to stop but will make you slow down.

[joejack951]

A lot of effort to stop a few people from dying. Why not go out and patrol the interstates to keep drivers' speeds under control and save a lot more people? I don't agree with running stop signs but if the focus is saving lives, go after the real killers.

[ignominious]

Research indicates that when you stop patrolling then speeds return to a natural level. Obstacles incur a far lower maintenance cost.

Not that speeding drivers isn't an issue that shouldn't be tackled but when two parties are being stupid then there is a case for looking at long-term results.

[CommuterRun]

One of the problems with the St. Marks Trail are access roads to subdivisions crossing it. In some cases the trail authority has refused approval for access roads, if a subdivision has another access. There are Yield signs requiring drivers and other road users to yield to trail users. The trail users get hit because drivers tend to ignore the yield. There's talk now of installing Stop signs at these intersections, requiring road users to stop. The trail authority, I forget who it is off the top of my head, refuses to compromise the integrity of the trail by putting Stop signs on the trail.

I have never used this trail, simply because it isn't on any of my commuting routes, but I agree with the trail authority.

Enigma198 may be able to shed more light on this, particular to this trail.

As for running Stop signs specifically: Traffic control devices are there for a reason and that is the safety of all road users. Anybody that disregards them is, sooner or later, going to get hit and it's their own fault when they do.

[sbhikes]

More mini-roundabouts are in order. Nobody wants to stop at stop signs so why make them do it in the first place if you don't have to.

[ignominious]

Mini-roundabouts demand the ability to stop. If drivers and cyclists can't acheive such a thing at a big red sign then they have no hope at a roundabout.

Besides, roundabouts require a degree of cognative ablility, something I find somewhat lacking in North American drivers.

[John E]

More mini-roundabouts are in order. ...

How much experience do you have with tight-radius traffic circles, Diane? We just got one in Encinitas (Devonshire at Santa Fe, for those familiar with the area), and I have biked it happily and successfully a few times under light traffic conditions, but not yet in heavy traffic. I have heard no reports of problems, but I suspect some people are avoiding it. I am concerned that where a heavily traveled street crosses a minor street, traffic on the major street could potentially lock out traffic on the lesser street.

[closetbiker]

More mini-roundabouts are in order. Nobody wants to stop at stop signs so why make them do it in the first place if you don't have to.

We have had a buch of them put in all over the place here and I like them, oth as a driver and as a cyclist. You have to slow to enter it and if someone is already in it when you arrive, you just wait your turn. People blow through stop signs without slowing down.

Time will tell if they're a success, but I think they will be.
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/images/np20a.gif

[sbhikes]

I like them. I have not driven a car through them. The fire department practiced driving their trucks through them until they could recommend which size is the best. Many drivers hate them because they slow them down. HA! That means they are working! Many residents who live near them like them because drivers are slowed. Some hate them, though because it is harder to back out of their driveways if they live near the corner.

And yes, they do require cognitive abilities most drivers seem to lack. But isn't that part of the problem? Too many people on total autopilot?

[ignominious]

And yes, they do require cognitive abilities most drivers seem to lack. But isn't that part of the problem? Too many people on total autopilot?

True. But which should come first supply or demand. A tricky situation.

Another problem is greed. I also find North American drivers generally more greedy and impatient. Roundabouts work better and faster when courtesy and patience are applied. Could this massive paradigm shift occur?

[DCCommuter]

The article is one-sided, in that it completely ignores the responsibility of motorists to stop or yield at crosswalks -- which exists even if the crossing trail has stop signs. The issue of right-of-way when a path crosses the road is complicated; a good article is here: http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6740.0.html. The designers of facilities like this are due some criticism as well for designing an intersection with poor sight lines and ambiguous right-of-way.

From the cyclists' perspective, it matters not whether you have the right of way, you have to stop, or at least yield when you come to an intersection like this. A problem with facilities like this is that inexperienced cyclists are given a false sense of security.

[CB HI]

The article is one-sided, in that it completely ignores the responsibility of motorists to stop or yield at crosswalks -- ....
Not to mention how stupid the designer had to be to put the stop sign on the wrong (left) side of the MUP. Might have something to do with cyclist not seeing it.

[Enigma198]

I frequently see cars running the stop signs when I'm on the St. Marks trail. Whenever I use the trail, I always watch the stop signs because I don't expect cars to stop. There was a female cyclist (USCF Racer type) that got clipped about eight weeks ago at a place where there was no stop sign. If she had been paying attention it could have been avoided. I learned to check the intersections prior to going through them on my trike because of the limited view from sitting so low to the ground. There are two stops signs for cyclist at Ace High Stables Rd. and Oak Ridge Rd. and I confess I frequently run the one at Ace High (on the bike). The other one is in a congested area and stopping for it is prudent. These are on main roads though and not merely entries to subdivisions. Now that I'm back on a conventional bike, I only use the trail if I'm going to Tallahassee by bike.

[manual_overide]

On this trail at road crossings, the roads do not have stop signs, and do not have to yield to the trail. There are signs that advise drivers of possible bikes crossing the road, however. The real problem here is that there are only a few road crossings that really ever have cars on them. Your typical 25+ mph (speed limit on the trail is 20) roadie poser in full team kit might stop at the busy ones, but blows through the ones that aren't. The 6 times per year there happens to be a car coming through at the same time.... POW!

This trail is over 50 miles long (plus another 20 or so that isn't state owned, so around 70 miles long!!), and crosses lots of roads, many of which are far out in the country. This beautiful country land, however, is succumbing to urban sprawl. With the sprawl comes more traffic and unattentive drivers. The traffic sensor idea mentioned in the article would be the best idea, but it would only really need to be implemented on the busiest intersections.

[manual_overide]

Kind of related, but here's another article from another paper about this amazing trail

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AE/20060501/NEWS01/605010368/-1/CINCI

I can't wait!!! The trail goes right past where I work, and when this extension is finished, I'll be able to take it almost the whole way to work and back. It will be like a bike freeway just for me!!

[PaulH]

I agree that the problem seems to be bad (nonstandard) stop sign placement, rather than reckless cyclists.

Paul

[DCCommuter]

On this trail at road crossings, the roads do not have stop signs, and do not have to yield to the trail.

Ah, but there is a painted crosswalk, and in Ohio motor vehicles do have to yield at a crosswalk. The issue of right-of-way when a trail crosses a road is murky. A very similar case was litigated recently in Virginia, and the court ruled in favor of the cyclist. Basically, the court found that under the law a bicycle is considered a vehicle when it's operated on the road, but a pedestrian when it's operated on a sidewalk, crosswalk, or trail. The only traffic controls that regulate pedestrians are pedestrian controls like "don't walk" and "crossing prohibited;" a stop sign does not require a pedestrian to stop. Motorists are required to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, and a bicycle using a crosswalk is considered a pedestrian.

Of course, being right does you no good when you're dead. Cycling like a pedestrian means frequently yielding even though you have the right of way.

[manual_overide]

Ah, but there is a painted crosswalk, and in Ohio motor vehicles do have to yield at a crosswalk. The issue of right-of-way when a trail crosses a road is murky. A very similar case was litigated recently in Virginia, and the court ruled in favor of the cyclist. Basically, the court found that under the law a bicycle is considered a vehicle when it's operated on the road, but a pedestrian when it's operated on a sidewalk, crosswalk, or trail. The only traffic controls that regulate pedestrians are pedestrian controls like "don't walk" and "crossing prohibited;" a stop sign does not require a pedestrian to stop. Motorists are required to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, and a bicycle using a crosswalk is considered a pedestrian.

Of course, being right does you no good when you're dead. Cycling like a pedestrian means frequently yielding even though you have the right of way.

There are painted crosswalks at only a few of the road crossings. The rest have stop signs on the trail, and the words STOP AHEAD in large letters and usually a stop line painted on the trail.

Someone who has never ridden the trail might run a stop sign if they aren't paying attention, but it's really not that hard to see the stop signs and make sure you stop and look for traffic. When I ride the trail, I'm guilty of not stopping at every intersection every time.:o But if I don't come to a complete stop, i'll unclip in case I need to, and do kind of a mini rolling track stand while I check for traffic. I never just blow through without at least looking though.

[chephy]

More mini-roundabouts are in order. Nobody wants to stop at stop signs so why make them do it in the first place if you don't have to. To make driving less pleasant on certain streets so as to keep the traffic there to a minimum?

I've been on about three or four roundabouts in Toronto - and they all have stop signs. Perhaps I am not realizing something, but I see a lot of possibilities for collision without them. I couldn't tell you who has the right of way in many situations that can arise on the roundabout w/o stop signs, so I betcha the average North American driver couldn't either. How are you going to educate all those drivers and other road users overnight?

[Carusoswi]

I didn't read how fast the cyclist was going when he approached this crossing/intersection, but, if he missed the car due to a blind spot, then, it seems the crossing is poorly designed or maintained. Why you would locate a single stop sign on the left side of the path is also unexplainable.

That said, it is up to us cyclists to watch out for ourselves. As has been pointed out, having the right of way is of little value when we become the physically injured party.

Watching out for ourselves, especially as we become more experienced and more comfortable interacting with auto traffic is probably the most dangerous part of riding.

It's hardly fair to criticize the cyclist in this situation - he has paid dearly. But, in the end, our safety and survival is really up to us. It cannot be legislated - probably not even practical to expect authorities to enforce it.

My heart goes out to family.

Caruso

[sgtsmile]

Lots of Round abouts popping up in Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge with no traffic control signs on them at all. Darwin sorted out a few of the more careless drivers, and now there is no issue with them. The latest ring road around the edge of the city promises to have no traffic control but roundabouts. I cannot wait!

As a caution, on a bike, I have found it necesary to be extra careful there vs normal intersections as drivers locally are still adjusting to them, but I think (and here is the ex driving instructor in me) that they will end up being safer for bikers because they are angled so that even boy racers in lowered honda civics have to slow MUCH more than they do for nomal intersections (heh, meaning that normal drivers slow a lot) making car approach speeds much much safer and this results in increased response time when the driver and cyclist see each other. Also, line of site on them is supurb!

[sgtsmile]

Cause roundabouts are new to our area, the city published this guide. Hope it helps. (of course, rules may vary where you live, but this is how it works in Ontario...)

http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/Region.nsf/HowToUse?OpenPage


The site even has flash movies!

[sbhikes]

When they put in the first one there was a holy uproar about it. Lots of newspaper articles were printed explaining how to use it. It was looking like it might not work. But now there is very little congestion at the intersection compared to how it used to be before. People have mostly learned how to use it, and those who are too scared or stupid just find another route.

Now when they put in additional roundabouts, it's not such a big deal. People know how to use them. There's still an uproar with each one. But more people come to their defense. Especially because roundabouts make driving less pleasant for the scared, speeding and stupid drivers out there. And that's what you want, right? To keep the scared, speeding and stupid ones out of your neighborhood.

[ignominious]

To make driving less pleasant on certain streets so as to keep the traffic there to a minimum?

I've been on about three or four roundabouts in Toronto - and they all have stop signs. Perhaps I am not realizing something, but I see a lot of possibilities for collision without them. I couldn't tell you who has the right of way in many situations that can arise on the roundabout w/o stop signs, so I betcha the average North American driver couldn't either. How are you going to educate all those drivers and other road users overnight?

Where on earth are these roudabouts. Seriously, I haven't come across any yet and I'm interested to see how they are done over here.

Three simple rules that govern the use of roundabouts:

1) The vehicle to the left has right of way over you. If you are the vehicle to the left, you have right of way.

2) If you are stopped at a roundabout and can see a vehicle approaching from the road to the left, assume that they will not be stopping. If you have adequate time to begin and complete your manouver then go ahead, otherwise wait until you have right of way.

3) If there is no vehicle to the right then the right of way is on a first come first served basis, exactly like an all way stop.

On roundabout ettiquette:

It is not mandatory to stop at a roundabout, unless signed or lighted. However, it is generally considered polite to at least slow down in the presence of other traffic even if your right of way is over theirs.

Where a roundabout has more than one lane, make sure your route is the most direct. (do not stick to the outside lane)

If traffic is congested, consider occaisionally conceding your right of way briefly. You may need a similar favour in the future.

[noisebeam]

http://www.azdot.gov/CCPartnerships/Roundabouts/images/ctoon_cowboy.gif
Using a Modern Roundabout (http://www.azdot.gov/CCPartnerships/Roundabouts/howtouse.asp)

"Properly designed roundabouts also safely accommodate bicycles. Because vehicles are traveling at low speeds, which are comparable to bicycle speeds, bicycles can negotiate a roundabout like motorized vehicles. Bicycles have two choices to negotiate a roundabout. The more avid and skilled bicyclists can merge into a traffic lane before the bike lane ends; ride close to the middle of the lane to prevent vehicles from passing and cutting the bicyclist off; enter the roundabout after yielding to vehicles within the roundabout; circulate the roundabout being careful to watch for vehicles waiting to enter the roundabout; and exit the roundabout as a normal vehicle would do. Bicyclists not wanting to enter the roundabout can enter the sidewalk using the ramps where the bike lane ends, and proceed around the roundabout as a pedestrian."

Al

[BC Dub]

I think another important note that has been broadly covered in this thread is the fact that you don't really gain that much time by blasting through stop signs and red lights. Today I was out and had a guy pass me, only to have me catch up at the next three red lights (two of which he blew through completely red). I took a right turn to a less busy street, and ended up getting to the next main intersection before him. Obviously these are the same people who drive cars impatiently (but generally, to no avail).