Tandem Cycling - Shimano Sweet-16 Tandem Wheels

Hi All,

We are looking at a Santana and the salesperson is pushing the SHIMANO SWEET-16 TANDEM WHEELS. He says they are stronger and more reliable than any of the standard 40 spoke wheels out there. We are also looking at including the disk option.

Our team weighs 330lbs total.

Price aside, does anyone have any real world feedback on these wheels? Any impressions, thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Kevin

Is this your first tandem? Do you ride a single bike regularly? It sounds as if you're being sold as expensive a set-up as the dealer can push, or something they want out of the warehouse. Those would be nice wheels for racing, but not necessary for regular riding. And at 330lbs I might stay away from 16 spoke wheels even for racing.

We ordered a set of the sweet 16, am avid disk brake and a carbon fork to upgrade our Sovereign. We will report on our experience in a couple of weeks.

Here are a couple of thread to peruse on the subject of Shimano's Sweet 16's:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=155894&highlight=sweet+shimano

There are purportedly no weight limitations on these things and, at least in Santana-speak, 450lbs has always been their benchmark for tandem component durability and reliability testing.

As for the feedback, noting that we don't use low-spoke count aero wheels, the folks who do seem to find that they make for a much more spirited feeling ride than conventional wheels. They definitely have reduced aero drag and with the latest weight reduction, they've just about got the rolling mass back into the ballpark for a conventional set of 40h tandem wheels. They definitely have the "bling-thing" going for them as well.

As for the negatives, only two issues seem to have a recurring theme and they don't seem to be the "norm", per se. The first pertains to spoke tension and the second to cassette lubrication.

As you can read in this post, the loss of equal spoke tension can lead to problems.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=146987&highlight=sweet+shimano

Others who have the Sweet 16s have also noted that spoke tension was or became uneven during the first several hundred miles of use and has required periodic attention. For a handful of teams that I have read postings from who were unaware of the critical need to have and routinely check for uniform tension, spoke breakage or rim cracks have had some problems... but in all the cases I'm aware of, these were on the first generation Sweet 16s, not the newer more lightweight models. This doesn't mean the newer models aren't prone to the same issue, I just haven't read where anyone with the new rims has noted that spoke tension was an issue. FWIW, in none of the instances of spoke breakage have I heard anyone report that they had a complete or near wheel collapse... in fact, most indicate that the wheels stay relatively true: Rolf's Prima Vigors -- the comparable wheelset used by Burley & Co-Motion -- seem to go a bit out of true when a spoke breaks.

As for lubrication issues, a few teams have reported -- again, 1st Gen wheels not the new models -- that their rear cassette pawls have failed (disengaged) under hard climbs. The story from Santana is and has been that the grease used in the hubs was either too viscous (thick) or became contaminated which, in turn, gummed-up the pawls and led to the pawls "slipping". There's a now infamous thread in the Tandem@Hobbes archives that chronicles one couples nightmare with their Sweet 16s, as well as a total breakdown in communication between the dealer and Santana that got down right ugly. On the bright side, the vast majority of Santana's customers receive excellent support and have very good things to say about Santana... but this couple's experience was anything but. To be fair, none of the tandem builders are immune to the occasional PR disaster.

Recognize, this is one team's assessment:
http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.10603.0505.eml

Bottom Line: Santana overbuilds what they sell but still has a few problems now and again. I think the Sweet 16s are as good as or better than the Rolfs or the Bontrager wheels and are as reliable as most conventional wheels. Any other issues with the Sweet 16s are common to all of the Santana models (unique nature of 160mm rear spacing) and if it was really a major issue they wouldn't still be selling hundreds of tandems a year).

I recently got a Santana Niobium with the Sweet 16 wheels. We love the bike. While I don't usually believe everything Bill M. says regarding the superiority of every facet of Santana tandems ;-), I do believe that he is a very careful business man and would not equip his high end bikes with components that could have catastrophic failures. Thus, I feel quite safe on the wheels. My team weighs about 300 lbs. and the wheels have been perfect.

As for the wheels themselves. Here are some things to think about. My wife and I ride for fun, mostly near home on 1 to 4 hour rides. At some point will will travel, but not for a while. For these rides, there is no question that the Sweet 16 wheels are great. They are fast and we can feel a difference from our previous tandem. Even the shop mechanic who had not tried them previously was amazed when he took the bike out for a quick check-up ride.

On the other hand, if you plan to tour in remote locations, the chances of getting such a wheel repaired quickly are zero. Thus, a broken spoke can end a trip. With the 160mm rear spacing, you probably can't even find a replacement rear wheel all that fast. When the time comes for me and my wife to tour Europe, I plan to go with cushy tour groups and to purchase a more conventional wheel set as a backup that the tour support van can carry. Not everyone wants this level of expense or extra baggage. When I was tandem shopping, my shop tried to discourage us from getting the Sweet 16 wheels because they are very conservative and emphasize keeping all equipment simple for ease of repair on a long tour.

The disk brake option is another thing with pluses and minuses. I live near a 3 block long fairly steep down hill. We rode down this hill the other day and I used the rim brakes to keep our speed at about 18-20 MPH. At the bottom of the hill, I stopped to check the rims. The front rim was so hot that touching it for about 2 seconds burned my finger. Thus, it is no myth that even short periods of hard braking will really heat up rims on a tandem. I have no idea how much more heat would have been required to blow out the tube, but I fear not much. This is a case where a disk brake or at least a drag brake would have been a great idea.

On the other hand, my local shop again discouraged getting this option. The problem with disk brakes is that they tend to be easily bent and a bent rotor is apparently a real pain to fix even at home, let alone in the field. Based on this, and my initial willingness to avoid or walk down big hills, we passed on the disk. However, if we continue to ride on big hills, I may see about adding it later. Adding a disk is not much more expensive than buying it on the bike initially, so you are not risking much by waiting to see if you really need it.

Good luck,
Ira

...the chances of getting such a wheel repaired quickly are zero. Thus, a broken spoke can end a trip. With the 160mm rear spacing, you probably can't even find a replacement rear wheel all that fast.

All things being equal, popping a spoke on a Sweet 16 probably won't strand you any more so than with any other tandem wheel so long as you plan ahead and stash some spare spokes on your tandem. I keep 3 spokes stuffed in Debbie's seatpost and if I had a set of Sweet 16's I have 3 of those spokes plus a few of the plastic doo hickey's that keep the spokes from rubbing against each other stashed in there instead. Although I'm not positive, I believe that in a pinch even a standard spoke can be used to fix a Sweet 16...

In a worst case scenario where you broke several spokes or damaged the rear rim, you or a qualified mechanic / wheel builder can cannibalize a front Sweet 16 to "fix" the rear as the front & rear rim and spokes are interchangeable. Any conventional 36h 700c wheel can then be used for the front as an interim fix. This is pretty much the standard protocol for any rear tandem wheel that gets mangled while on tour as finding 140mm, 145mm or 160mm rear wheels or hubs will always be a challenge, even in a major US city. If you're running a 40h or 48h wheel, it becomes even a bigger challenge. If you also happen to have a rear disc, foggeddaboutit.... You'll need to salvage your current hub if you can't ride without the rear brake and/or can't fit a rim brake at your next bike shop. This is why -- as a rule of thumb -- many of us will always recommend that you buy wheelsets that have, at a minimum, the same rims front & rear as you'll always have a "spare" rim for your rear wheel. Again, front wheels aren't usually a problem to find.


The problem with disk brakes is that they tend to be easily bent and a bent rotor is apparently a real pain to fix even at home, let alone in the field.

Did your shop tell you this or has this been your experience? I'd have to call this one a myth, or at least an urban legend. Disc rotors, while somewhat pliable, are fairly well protected while on the bike. After all, the contemporary discs were developed and cut their teeth in off-road technical conditions where crashing is the norm. If they bent all the time and couldn't be bent back they would have failed in the marketplace. Off the bike, if you weren't careful with a wheel when stuffing it in a suitcase for travel or somewhere else you might cause the rotor to warp a bit. However, you can usually bend them right back by hand.

Again, while I don't profess to have all the answers, I can speak first hand as someone who has been using discs on tandems for many years... again, on road and off. Despite crashing our off-road tandems numerous times -- sometimes quite dramatically -- and having travelled with our disc equipped S&S road tandem, I can't ever recall bending a disc rotor. However, I have received new discs that were slightly out of true and they were rather easy to straighten out.

Is this your first tandem? Do you ride a single bike regularly? It sounds as if you're being sold as expensive a set-up as the dealer can push, or something they want out of the warehouse. Those would be nice wheels for racing, but not necessary for regular riding. And at 330lbs I might stay away from 16 spoke wheels even for racing.


This is the first tandem we will own. We have been riding a Santana Sovereign for 4 months at least 2x/ week and just love it. We also ride our single bikes regularly and I have done a number of Time Trials and century rides/races. I have a Serotta and just love it and decided to go pretty high end on the tandem. We test rode a Santana Beyond for several hours and were amazed at the differences. While we will certainly do some centuries and hopefully ( if I can talk her into it ) a time trial or two, most of our riding will be 2-5 hour rides where we'll push it but also have fun. We are also planning on doing some tours in Europe. Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

OK, so you're experienced riders going top end on purpose... if you're looking at a Beyond then forget what I wrote!!!!

Enjoy

TandemGeek: Where / how do you keep your spare spokes inside the seat tube? Are they suspended somehow? Was also wondering about the frequent advice to use front wheel to fix rear in an emergency. Are front wheel dropout spacings on all current tandems (Santana, Co-Motion, Burley, etc) the same as for single 700c bikes?

TandemGeek: Where / how do you keep your spare spokes inside the seat tube? Are they suspended somehow? Was also wondering about the frequent advice to use front wheel to fix rear in an emergency. Are front wheel dropout spacings on all current tandems (Santana, Co-Motion, Burley, etc) the same as for single 700c bikes?

Two rubber stoppers hold three spokes. Both are pre-drilled. The "inner stopper" that goes well into the seat post is trimmed down so that it slides into the post; this keeps the spokes from rattling around. The other stopper is sized (although I don't recall the exact size off-hand) just right to be pressed into our seat posts (27.2mm seat tubes) with the stopper lip and three bend ends of the spokes exposed. This allows the entire assembly to slip into the post and remain there until pulled out by the spoke ends.

To the best of my knowledge, all current tandem use 100mm spacing, no different than road bikes...

we have disks on our new cannondale...

canti's (stunk see below most likely they were out of adjustment)

avid single digits with travel agents (nice stop effectivly)

avid mechanical disks (very nice stop effectivly)
I even barked the tires when during a club ride someone felt a need slow down when rejoining the group.

we are doing some tuneup audax rides ... ( I know its weird but we are having to ride the brakes downhill) the disks ease my mind knowing im not meliting plastic to my wheel.)

Hey, this is clever. I was thinking of suspending from a cord but didn't want the rattling. Still not quite sure I've got it, though. When you say "pre-drilled" you mean each stopper has three holes for spokes, right? Lower stopper presumably has threaded end of spokes poked through and secured with three spoke nipples?

Upper stopper is what I don't get: spoke bends at top (seat end) of stopper keep spokes from dropping through, correct? But is the fit of the top stopper tight enough to keep entire assembly always up at the top? Is it pressed in from the top of the seatpost with saddle removed?

Finally, any reason it wouldn't work just as well on captain's seatpost?

Thanks again.

When you say "pre-drilled" you mean each stopper has three holes for spokes, right?

Yes...


Upper stopper is what I don't get:

Assume you've just removed the stoker's saddle & seatpost as a single unit... Sticking out of what would normally be Debbie's hollow carbon seatpost you'd see about 3mm of the top of a black rubber stopper with three bended-ends of the spokes sticking out. The rest of the spokes extend up into the seatpost and are hidden from view. Grab a hold of the spokes and stopper and pull. As it comes out of the seatpost you eventually get to the smaller black rubber stopper that is also pierced by the three spokes, with the threaded ends (with nipples installed) sticking out from the "top" of the small stopper.



Finally, any reason it wouldn't work just as well on captain's seatpost?

None whatsoever... unless you've installed a wired computer for your stoker. Of course, if your stoker has a shock-post that uses the post as the elastomer or air cylinder then you'd have to use the captain's seatpost for this approach. Of course, you can always just slide them into the end of your handlebars...

I wish they came in a 145mm spacing! And Bill M knows he'd sell a ton of them. But....

If you're looking 'high end' tandems, also look at some other brands for comparison . . . you may be surprised (again) on how well the competition builds tandems.
While we were at the Prairie State Tandem Rally a couple years ago, folks showed up with one of the very first 'Beyonds' (with Sweet 16s). . . and of course everyone crowded around and had a look-see. The owner of the new Beyond then took a look at our custom carbon fiber tandem and asked if he could pick it up . . . he hefted it and said "Oh sh--!" and just walked away.
As far as carrying spare spokes, on all our custom tandems we've had a spare spoke holder installed (holding 2 spokes) underneath the boob tube. Unobtrusive, and in all our years of tandeming only once did we have to avail ourselves of one of the spokes and that was when we popped a rear, cogside spoke, descending the very steep, with many switchbacks, Oak Creek Canyon in northern Arizona.
Sweet 16s are of course only available for 'tanas and others have elaborated already on the good/bad; but other wheelsets should also be considered, including the combo of Chris King/Velocity Aeroheads/ti spokes . . . a bit lighter but not quite as aero as the 16s.
If you have a Serotta and like it, Ben also will build you a nice ti tandem (yes, we've ridden one).
Do more looking/test riding before committing is our suggestion.
Pedal on TWOgewther!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Thanks, Tandem Geek. Will give this a try. You were reading my mind: shock absorbing stoker seat tube means I will need to try on captain's tube.

Rudy & Kay: Thanks for other suggestion on spokes. How do you secure them to boob tube?

JayB: with a custom built tandem you can specify what you want. Spoke carriers are an old idea. Touring bikes used to carry 2 spares on the chainstay; asides from having the spokes, it protected paint on chainstay from chain slap.
Any frame builder should be able to retrofit a spoke carrier under boob tube but it could co$t you a re-paint job too. Another (much cheaper) solution would be to put 2 spare spokes under/on top of boob tube and secure 'em with 2 strips of tightly wrapped velcro around the boob tube.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem