I'm looking for advice on a situation that I've been put in twice now by drivers of long vehicles. Basically the same deal both times: I'm moving along at about 10 below the speed limit (25 mph speed limit the first time, 35 mph the second). Center to left biased position on narrow road. In both cases, the road ahead was clear so no reason for me to try and restrict the pass. As the driver is passing, they start moving over WAY too early. If I was to hold my position, I would get hit. The only option I have is moving right and at the same time braking to get out of the way of the rear end of their vehicle. If that was the end of the situation, I'd get over it but in both cases a car was following the long vehicle and presumably cannot see me. Their view of me is partially obstructed by the large vehicle, not helped by me being so far right now. So, the following car now passes closely too while I'm squeezed right and moving slowly. It's a very unnerving situation and short of standing my ground in the middle of the road and hoping for the best, I'm not sure what else I could do. Any advice or similar experiences?
For what it's worth, the first driver was a school bus driver and I got his license plate number and reported him to the school district. I have not encountered him since though I only encountered him that one time anyway. Today, it was a semi driver hauling a load of sod and towing a small piece of equipment behind the trailer which blocked my view of the license plate. I might have had a chance to see his license plate at the next stop light (he also blocked traffic for about a minute trying to make his right turn) but the car who also passed was now blocking me :mad:
ignominious
05-01-06, 10:58 AM
Taking the lane is not an at all costs principle. If a driver threatens your safety, accept the fact that becoming a statistic is not worth standing up for.
My best advice is that when you get put in this position by the first vehicle is to do much as you did. Pull as far right as is safe as soon as possible to quickly make yourself visible to the second vehicle and resume taking the lane after the vehicles have passed.
timmhaan
05-01-06, 11:00 AM
i've had to swallow my pride several times and just pull off and let them pass. when they roar past me and the wind is gusting around them i know i made the best decision. the open wheels in the back leave no room for mistakes.
ignominious
05-01-06, 11:09 AM
True. I especially like the ones with the protruding, whirling wheelnuts of death.
flipped4bikes
05-01-06, 11:10 AM
As much as I hate that, but that will happen will LOOOOONG wheelbase vehicles. Usually the drivers are pretty good at judging spacing, but when they don't, it can be quite intimidating. You're only choice is to move out of harm's way. If it's a deliberate buzz, then report them. Otherwise, just a waste of time...
sgtsmile
05-01-06, 07:06 PM
Please dont become dead right when it comes to right of way. It is far better to deliberately ditch your bike than to be hit. (In much the same way when mtn biking it is much better to deliberately endo under control than to let your bike pitch you over the bars....)
Helmet Head
05-01-06, 07:27 PM
Even pros underestimate the length of their vehicles sometimes. The guiding principle here is: trust but verify.
The primary goal is to encourage the start of the pass with a safe passing distance. That's when it's most important to be far enough left to accomplish that. But once they are already passing you, there is little if any reason to hold your ground in the lane... go ahead and move right to facilitate their passing - and thus increasing the buffer between you and the long vehicle even more. If you see them start moving in too soon, slow down, and move even further right. As soon as they pass you, move left to your original position which accentuates conspicuity and predictability to all the other traffic you will encounter next, whether they're coming from behind, oncoming, or from the side.
joejack951
05-01-06, 07:49 PM
It seems a few people misinterpretted my post to mean that I didn't want to move for the large vehicle. This is not the case. I can understand that they might make a mistake and cut things close. I have no problem with slowing down and moving right. My problem is with the rest of traffic that now takes advantage of the situation either knowingly or unknowingly. I'm thinking it may be better to stay as centered as possible and brake more instead of moving right. This will help keep me visible and get me out of the way of the passer. Any opinions or experience?
I guess it is possible that the most prudent action is to just move right and slow down and if additional cars are passing closely then just pull over and stop.
sbhikes
05-01-06, 08:19 PM
I get this a lot. The traffic behind someone else not seeing me and acting as if I am not there. Like the others said there's not a lot you can do but let them do what they're doing and get out of the way. If you can make yourself visible at some point so they'll recognize they made a judgment error all the better.
chipcom
05-01-06, 08:23 PM
Even pros underestimate the length of their vehicles sometimes. The guiding principle here is: trust but verify.
The primary goal is to encourage the start of the pass with a safe passing distance. That's when it's most important to be far enough left to accomplish that. But once they are already passing you, there is little if any reason to hold your ground in the lane... go ahead and move right to facilitate their passing - and thus increasing the buffer between you and the long vehicle even more. If you see them start moving in too soon, slow down, and move even further right. As soon as they pass you, move left to your original position which accentuates conspicuity and predictability to all the other traffic you will encounter next, whether they're coming from behind, oncoming, or from the side.
There is a reason to hold your lane position in some cases. If traffic is heavy/fast/aggressive you can end up getting pinned in the gutter as the traffic behind the truck/trailer barrels through on his tail, in an effort not to get stuck behind you. I have this situation daily, so I use my speed to compensate for short passes and hold my lane position unless I need to bail or feel it's safe to move farther right to let a bunch of cars pass. Sometimes I got no choice but to bail, because the truck passes unsafely and the bozos plastered to his tail don't realize there is oncoming traffic, until the truck moves back into our lane, at which time they panic and swerve right...right into me if I had maintained my speed and postion.
Helmet Head
05-01-06, 10:11 PM
Well, if you've got a long vehicle who is moving in too early, who is also being tailgated, that is quite a challenge. The saving factor is that while the long vehicle driver is likely to not see you, while he is cutting in the tailgater is still behind you, and at some point will see you. As you're getting squeezed to the right, you should be able to slow down and issue the slow and/or left signals to get the tailgater to back off, and give you the space to move left, while he moves even further left (to about the same position the long vehicle driver was in when he started passing you).
Now, if you're talking about a string of tailgating semis or greyhound buses, I'm not sure what to advise!
joejack951
05-02-06, 06:10 AM
Chipcom described the situation perfectly. You really feel trapped thanks to not being able to predict the tailgater.
Signalling left/slow seems to make the most sense if I've been forced right to negotiate back into the flow, followed by bailing if the situation gets too sticky. Ah, the joys of commuting :)
ItsJustMe
05-02-06, 06:50 AM
...the truck passes unsafely and the bozos plastered to his tail don't realize there is oncoming traffic, until the truck moves back into our lane, at which time they panic and swerve right...right into me if I had maintained my speed and postion.
That always baffles me. If I'm behind a larger vehicle and they pass someone, I don't begin my pass until I have a clear line of sight. Starting a pass when you can't see the oncoming lane seems so absolutely idiotic, yet you see it almost daily. I'm sure these people aren't (for the most part) total morons, but they become conditioned to act like they are.
ignominious
05-02-06, 07:04 AM
Now, if you're talking about a string of tailgating semis or greyhound buses, I'm not sure what to advise!
I don't think that there is any definitive advice that should be given here. Sometimes there are no rule to fit a situation properly and like any vehicle operator you need to use your judgement and intuition to be as safe as possible. Sometimes, as a cyclist, you have to accept that the smallness of you vehicle is a handicap and react appropriately. A little payback for all the times you've capitalised on size and the kind of manouverability that the four-wheelers envy I guess.
Personally, where a string of large, obstructive vehicles are concerned I would still want to stick towards the right, not so that they can get passed but so that I can see what is coming up ahead. I'd keep up the eye contact with the tailing driver and try to hold them back until the space in front is equal to the size of their vehicle. At that point I'd motion them forward, slow down and tuck to the side. The natural gap created by their acceleration, if they chose to move forward should be enough to let you pop in behind them and repeat as necessary. If they don't want to take you there then woo hoo, a big fat rolling safety chase is yours for the taking. Pray for no headwind and watch out for wide spaces in the road ahead.
chipcom
05-02-06, 08:12 AM
I don't think that there is any definitive advice that should be given here.
I think one phrase can be applied to this and a great many other situations - speed kills. I see way too many riders taking unnecessary chances because they don't want to have to slow down or stop - just like the drivers we ***** about.
ignominious
05-02-06, 08:21 AM
You have a point there, but that's definitive advice for all cycling all of the time.
Roughstuff
05-02-06, 08:54 AM
In my many years of riding I have always found trucks to be far more professional and considerate of me as a cyclist than busses ever dreamed of being. Several reasons:
Truckers make their living on the road and have always had a vested interest in its safety. Your average bus driver is some government-program mass-transit rent a hack, who figure they have carte blanche to enter traffic after they have let all their passngers on. How passengers riding in a vehicle with the size and mobility of a tank can complain about SUVs escapes me.
Busses often have their engines in the rear and are harder to hear coming up behind you in many cases.
Truck drivers communicate with one another extensively thru CB and often know the roads they travel over like the back of their hand. Word spreads fast about dangerous curves and such. Word also spreads fast about courteous drivers (and cyclists) who help truckers out. When i was on the alaska highway, and the PanAm highway on the Peruvian coast, I got thumbs up signs and honks from truckers for hundreds of miles.
Busses are always pulling into the breakdown/parking lane to drop off and pick up passengers, at least in urban areas. Trucks are not.
roughstuff
Bekologist
05-02-06, 09:42 AM
judging by the number of bus drivers I pedal up on while they read the newspaper at traffic signals or talk on their phone, i am more in line with roughstuff's assessment of bus driver's median level of incompetence, versus being considered a 'pro.'
Just giving someone a CDL and a Metro sweater does NOT make some hack a professional driver.
Helmet Head
05-02-06, 10:51 AM
Now, if you're talking about a string of tailgating semis or greyhound buses, I'm not sure what to advise!
I don't think that there is any definitive advice that should be given here.
There are hardly any instances for which definitive advice can be given. I don't think anyone here is trying to do that.
By the way, this is why I prefer to base the hypothetical situations we discuss on actual incidents rather than on pure imagination - I think that makes them more likely to be realistic. Unfortunately, here, that often means analyzing a situation where a cyclist was injured or killed, and is often misconstrued as an effort to lay blame on the cyclist. But I digress...
So really all we can do is talk about hypothetical instances. Even a description of a real situation, such as the one described here by Joejack, is ultimately no different than a realistic hypothetical description to the rest of us, since it's impossible to convey all the details and nuances of a particular situation in writing. The best that anyone can do is provide a description that is condensed and abridged, and, effectively, no different than a realistic hypothetical description.
But regardless of whether the hypothetical description which we discuss is based on a real incident or someone's imagination, or something in between, all we can do is talk in generalities. There are no definitive precise rules, only general principles and guidelines.
The immediate goal in these exercises - at least for me - is to get the ideas flowing. Get us thinking. The ultimate goal is to ingrain some of these ideas into our habits and reflexes, because when we are confronted with these situations in real time on the road, there is no time for armchair analysis. We must react. The best we can do here is built the foundation upon which our reactions will be based. I think one of the most valuable skills we can learn and convey is how to recognize threatening situations sooner, and, thus, be able to react to them sooner. Any collision usually involves all parties not recognizing a potential threat soon enough, a threat that could have been easily averted with appropriate reaction had it been recognized earlier.
For example... by Joejack bringing up this incident, and the resulting discussion, perhaps someone reading this thread might recognize the potentially threatening situation in which he is riding, as he notices a long vehicle starting to pass him, a little bit sooner than if he did not read this thread. So in that case the benefit would not be so much the particular reaction, but knowing earlier that he may have something to react to. He may be a bit more likely to pay attention to the space he has to his right when the passing starts, and how much space there is between him and the (say) long truck, and to make sure that he reacts (by moving right) sooner if the truck should start encroaching too soon. He may also know to immediately note whether there is a tailgater or not, and starting dealing with that accordingly, in advance. Thinking about these hypothetical situations in advance, even from a desk chair, can be very helpful to honing one's reaction when they actually occur. It's all good.
nova
05-03-06, 07:47 PM
There is a reason to hold your lane position in some cases. If traffic is heavy/fast/aggressive you can end up getting pinned in the gutter as the traffic behind the truck/trailer barrels through on his tail, in an effort not to get stuck behind you. I have this situation daily, so I use my speed to compensate for short passes and hold my lane position unless I need to bail or feel it's safe to move farther right to let a bunch of cars pass. Sometimes I got no choice but to bail, because the truck passes unsafely and the bozos plastered to his tail don't realize there is oncoming traffic, until the truck moves back into our lane, at which time they panic and swerve right...right into me if I had maintained my speed and postion.
lol chip ride down wooster road west in the right lane and see where it gets you hehe. I hate that freaking road not cause trafic is overly dangerous but if you miss judge where your at your gona get stuck in the mile long parking lot. Not just with bikes ither. Ive been with people in cars and gotten stuck to and it realy realy sucks.
LittleBigMan
05-04-06, 08:39 AM
Really, if you're taking the lane when this situation happens, you've got more avoidance room.
Even when driving, they say you should always be aware of an "out," a place to bail if necessary.
DCCommuter
05-04-06, 06:38 PM
I had a bad/good experience today along these lines. I was riding in Potomac Park, near the Mall in Washington, DC. The park has a bunch of small roads to get people to the monuments. The road I was on was one way, two narrow (10-ft or so) lanes, no parking or shoulder, speed limit 15. I'm the right lane, a tour bus comes up in the left lane. As it pulls alongside me the driver starts moving into my lane. I yell, he hears me, and backs off. Then he comes again, I yell again, this time he doesn't back off and he squeezes me until I back off. I follow him for about a quarter of a mile to the Lincoln Memorial where he parks.
On the back of the bus is the 800 number for the bus company, so I call it. I tell the person who answers the phone what happened, and I read the bus number and license plate off the back of the bus. I then go and talk to the driver. He was belligerent; at first he denies moving into my lane, then he says he had to move over because tree branches were hitting his bus, then he says it's OK because he didn't hit me. I tell him that I've called his company, and leave at that.
Within a few minutes I get a call from the safety manager of the bus company, who sounds very interested in what has happened. I tell him my story, he's sympathetic and even says the magic words unprompted: "you have the same right to the road as any vehicle." He tells me he will talk to the driver, and I thank him and say that's all I can ask for.
powerhouse
05-05-06, 02:44 AM
Like it's been said previously be other people on this thread, you can't do armchair psychology when a truck or bus is coming up behind you. Yes, the drivers of thesse vehicles have certain obligations to take notice of you. In my experiences, they have often passed allowing plenty of room. However, there have been times when they don't and you need to act accordingly.
For instance, it may not be too smart to stay in the middle of the lane when a semi is coming up behind you. The driver may not want or have the time to slow down. When riding as far over to the side of the
road, odds may be better and safer. However, as I have sometimes experienced, the semi drivers have tended to do some "fly-swatting" which leaves little or no room, forcing me to ditch. You can say what you wish about this being too "old school" but it has saved me from becoming a statistic or a permanent part of a road somewhere.
chipcom
05-05-06, 06:03 AM
lol chip ride down wooster road west in the right lane and see where it gets you hehe. I hate that freaking road not cause trafic is overly dangerous but if you miss judge where your at your gona get stuck in the mile long parking lot. Not just with bikes ither. Ive been with people in cars and gotten stuck to and it realy realy sucks.
I ride Wooster all the time. It ain't no big deal. I'd rather ride it than drive it, that's for sure.
LittleBigMan
05-05-06, 06:49 AM
On the back of the bus is the 800 number for the bus company, so I call it. I tell the person who answers the phone what happened, and I read the bus number and license plate off the back of the bus...
Within a few minutes I get a call from the safety manager of the bus company, who sounds very interested in what has happened. I tell him my story, he's sympathetic and even says the magic words unprompted: "you have the same right to the road as any vehicle." He tells me he will talk to the driver, and I thank him and say that's all I can ask for.
I've found reporting city bus drivers and couriers in this way yields very good results.
joejack951
05-05-06, 07:14 AM
I've found reporting city bus drivers and couriers in this way yields very good results.
The school district seemed to take my report of the close pass very seriously.