"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - S P R I N T I N G : questions

okay, i ride almost always by myself, and find it difficult to judge sprinting by mph. usually after a 40 mile solo ride i can hit 32 mph on a flat. that just sounds pathetic to me, but based on some of my racing, i really don't think that i am that bad of a sprinter, at least for cat 5. i've read workouts that say you should use a downhill to get up to a fast speed and then accelerate to a max to simulate sprinting in a group. using this method i got up to 32 mph on the downhill and then hit 38 mph on the flat. does this seem weird to anyone else? i mean i guess the gearing could be limiting my sprint at the lower speeds (i certainly am not in the 12 when i accelerate from 22 mph on the flat whereas that is the only gear i am in on the downhill sprint) but i didn't think that i would be able to accelerate that much after the downhill. i guess i am asking for help with understanding my mediocre sprint mph on flats (32 mph) without hill or draft assistance. should i be worried that this number is so low? does it sound like i am just runing out of gear on the flat sprint? blahhrrrgghhhh? any assistance would be swell.

Build leg strength. Do intervals.

dude, cypress, what is that animation? everytime i see one of your posts i laugh.

Supergreg. Numba 1.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-868511218734258487&q=supergreg&pl=true

1)32 mph with no leadout, and no motivation from someone to sprint with or after, is not that bad. Try sprinting in some group rides,or races and see what the number is.
2) you're not running out of gear unless your top is like a 48x17, You can easily go over 45mph in a 53x12 before you spin out.

1)32 mph with no leadout, and no motivation from someone to sprint with or after, is not that bad. Try sprinting in some group rides,or races and see what the number is.
2) you're not running out of gear unless your top is like a 48x17, You can easily go over 45mph in a 53x12 before you spin out.
sorry to be soconfusing. i was saying on the flat, i might be running out of gear. since i am starting at a lower speed, i am spinning at perhaps my max cadence in the lower gear (53x17) i used to accelerate. (when i start in a bigger gear, it is harder to accelerate, and i am spent before i reach max speed.)

You are trying to sprint in HUGE gear, almost 120 inches! Most matched sprint track racers ride a gear between say 88-95 inches and they go very fast, well above 30 mph. The gear you start your sprint with is about 84 inches, you should be finishing with a 53X16 or a 15.

Effective sprinting is about spinning, not big gears.

I'm on a Cat 1 race team, and our designated sprinter, so while I'm not world-class, I'll try to help.

First, leg strength is important. Be it weights and intervals or just intervals, whichever tickles your fantasy.

Second, as noted, the gear you're trying sprint in is huge.

Your sprint should take you through more than one gear as you spin up to maximum velocity. Also, check your form. To generate more power, hold the drops and lean your body forward, and "pull" your pedal towards your foot as you are lowering your foot. If you can't feel you arms working, pull harder. But be careful that it is the bike moving and not your body, or you'll be wasting energy.

It's all relative, really.
You'll find out how relative it is when you go head-to-head with a couple of riders.

Efficiency comes out of necessity.
When you need more speed, you'll find ways to be more efficient.

dude, cypress, what is that animation? everytime i see one of your posts i laugh.

Don't let him fool you Cypress is a DJ at an Iranian disco, that's really him.

Don't let him fool you Cypress is a DJ at an Iranian disco, that's really him.

Quiet you...

Jou'll give blow to my cover!

dude, cypress, what is that animation? everytime i see one of your posts i laugh.

Try this too. :D

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/supergreg.php

The hardest thing for me and sprinting is choosing the right gear to jump in. It's different every time. If I choose the wrong gear then I have to sit back down change gears and stand up again, I cannot manage to do this while standing and sprinting as I like to grab the drops rather then the hoods. Most of the time my sprints are finished sitting down and spinning out. Last night was a little different as I chose the right wheel and just as the guy died (a cat 2) I stood up with out changing gears and got around him. Most of the times I think that if I am going to stand I need to change to a harder gear but in this case it worked perfect I guess because I stuck my nose into the wind.

I am definitelly not a smart sprinter :( But I think to become one you will need to ride in groups and have practice races and sprints. If your like me and you don't have the legs of a sprinter then you have to learn how to be smart. I can hit about 35mph on flats but thats on a good day. So imo 32mph is good but not sprinter good.

The hardest thing for me and sprinting is choosing the right gear to jump in. It's different every time. If I choose the wrong gear then I have to sit back down change gears and stand up again, I cannot manage to do this while standing and sprinting as I like to grab the drops rather then the hoods. Most of the time my sprints are finished sitting down and spinning out.

I am definitelly not a smart sprinter

Well, the spinning out part is great. Sit down get your nose down by the stem and you can really fly past people pushing so much wind. I do have to say though, likely the reason you are not considering yourself a good sprinter is due to the fact that you cant shift from the drops. This is either because you put your hands on the bar ends and not in the forward, power portion of the drops or because you are one of those people who put the brifters ridiculously high on the bar so they point forward and simply cannot be accessed from the drops.

Work on shifting from the drops while standing. It is an easy skill to learn and if you are beating people without being able to do this, imagine how dominant you will be if you can shift from the drops.

I'm on a Cat 1 race team, and our designated sprinter, so while I'm not world-class, I'll try to help.

First, leg strength is important. Be it weights and intervals or just intervals, whichever tickles your fantasy.

Second, as noted, the gear you're trying sprint in is huge.

Your sprint should take you through more than one gear as you spin up to maximum velocity. Also, check your form. To generate more power, hold the drops and lean your body forward, and "pull" your pedal towards your foot as you are lowering your foot. If you can't feel you arms working, pull harder. But be careful that it is the bike moving and not your body, or you'll be wasting energy.Good examples of sprinting form. Additionally, being out of the saddle for sprinting is NOT the same form as being out of the saddle for climbing. A lot of people stand straight up and block a lot of wind. You want to be bent over with your nose over the bars and almost touching. Then it's the pulling motion of your arms that keeps your upper body from being pushed up by the leg forces.

Also gearing is very important, about 50% of the equation or even 60%. The gears lets you maximize whatever strength you have in the legs. Even if you're build like a linebacker and can leg-press 1000lbs, you'll still get beat by a scrawny 120lb climber if you pick the wrong gears. I typicaly go through 2-3 gears in a sprint. That's to get maximum acceleration speed in the beginning, then I shift up at around 130-135rpms or so and hold the last gear in the saddle spinning as fast as I can with my nose behind the bars.

What happens is you only have 25-30 seconds at 100% effort. If you're in too big a gear, it may take you 20 seconds to go from 20-30mph and you only have little energy after that. In a lower gear, you can go from 20-30mph in only 15 seconds, you're pulling away from the guy in the taller gear. AND... you have an extra 5 seconds left before you completely run out of steam, so you'll hit a higher top-speed.

Another thing is to not go all out from the beginning, but ramp up the effort to save most of your strength for the higher speeds. So from 20-25mph, I'll push 97%, then 98% from 25-30mph, then 100% from 30mph onwards. This also simulates real race conditions as well where you're drafting a lead-out for most of the sprint.

Last thing is the neural-muscular connections and timing. There's a pattern of muscle contractions around the pedal-revolution and timing them is critical. Your brain needs the training of firing these muscles off in just the right sequence and if you don't have the practice, it doesn't work well. That's where spin-up exercises really help. Easiest is when cresting a hill, stay in the same gear and spin up as fast as you can and let gravity increase your speed, you just try to keep the legs moving faster and faster. Aim for 160-180rpms on the downhills over and over again. This programs the brain to fire off the nerves at high-speed in the right sequence. Stationary gym bikes are good for this too as they're stable and lets you really crank up the RPMs, although they only go up to 199rpms...

Good examples of sprinting form. Additionally, being out of the saddle for sprinting is NOT the same form as being out of the saddle for climbing. A lot of people stand straight up and block a lot of wind. You want to be bent over with your nose over the bars and almost touching. Then it's the pulling motion of your arms that keeps your upper body from being pushed up by the leg forces.

Also gearing is very important, about 50% of the equation or even 60%. The gears lets you maximize whatever strength you have in the legs. Even if you're build like a linebacker and can leg-press 1000lbs, you'll still get beat by a scrawny 120lb climber if you pick the wrong gears. I typicaly go through 2-3 gears in a sprint. That's to get maximum acceleration speed in the beginning, then I shift up at around 130-135rpms or so and hold the last gear in the saddle spinning as fast as I can with my nose behind the bars.

What happens is you only have 25-30 seconds at 100% effort. If you're in too big a gear, it may take you 20 seconds to go from 20-30mph and you only have little energy after that. In a lower gear, you can go from 20-30mph in only 15 seconds, you're pulling away from the guy in the taller gear. AND... you have an extra 5 seconds left before you completely run out of steam, so you'll hit a higher top-speed.

Another thing is to not go all out from the beginning, but ramp up the effort to save most of your strength for the higher speeds. So from 20-25mph, I'll push 97%, then 98% from 25-30mph, then 100% from 30mph onwards. This also simulates real race conditions as well where you're drafting a lead-out for most of the sprint.

Last thing is the neural-muscular connections and timing. There's a pattern of muscle contractions around the pedal-revolution and timing them is critical. Your brain needs the training of firing these muscles off in just the right sequence and if you don't have the practice, it doesn't work well. That's where spin-up exercises really help. Easiest is when cresting a hill, stay in the same gear and spin up as fast as you can and let gravity increase your speed, you just try to keep the legs moving faster and faster. Aim for 160-180rpms on the downhills over and over again. This programs the brain to fire off the nerves at high-speed in the right sequence. Stationary gym bikes are good for this too as they're stable and lets you really crank up the RPMs, although they only go up to 199rpms...

Good advice. Spinning is definitely the way to sprint. I used to do a drill where a small group of us would do sprints in a very small gear, say a 42X16. It wasn't necessarily the strongest rider that won, but the one with the smoothest, best spin. To be able to spin big gears, you have to spin small ones first.

Get on a BMX bike. Watch your sprinting and bike handling skills improve astronomically. Your max cadence will also increase. :D

Every time I come to this site Im amazed by how complicated you all make this.

This might be a dumb question, but how long do you stay standing up during the sprint? The entire time?

--Steve

This might be a dumb question, but how long do you stay standing up during the sprint? The entire time?

--Steve

Think it would depend on the length of the sprint. I would say 50 to 100M out of the saddle would be a long ways.

Depends on the length of the sprint, but it is not uncommon for me to be out of the saddle for 200-300 meters or so as long as I am accelerating. Many times I will will sit the last 50 meters or so to get out of the wind.

I don't sit until I'm pointing to the sky in celebration.

This might be a dumb question, but how long do you stay standing up during the sprint? The entire time?I wonder if there's an optimum sprinting-technique based upon body-style? I'm a muscle-bound mesomorph and I find I'm fastest in the saddle. I might crank out the 1st of 3-gears in a sprint out of the saddle, then I'm in the saddle for the final two gears. That's really only in sprint-practice that starts out at 25mph.

In a race, pretty much all sprints start at 30mph+, so I'll only use two gears to go from 30-36, then 36-40mph+. I might be out of the saddle only for the 1st half of that 1st gear, then sit down for the 2nd half and for all of the next gear.

I find I can spin-up faster and get to higher-RPMs in the saddle. Could also be because I've developed a smooth and fast cadence and applying power all the way around gives me more speed than really cranking it only through 120-degrees. Then again, I've snapped two handlebars and a stem in sprints, so I'm a little more careful now... :(

Man, sounds like I would need to do a whole lot of practicing if I wanted to learn to sprint (I don't race so haven't had to do so) because I'll bet I can't spin above 90 rpm while standing on the pedals. Then again, I'm thinking more of hill-climbing rather than sprinting (in which you're not really even standing, no?).

And changing gears while going all out is another thing I'd really have to practice. It seems dangerous to try as a newbie. Don't you have to ease up just slightly while shifting--or do you shift at the point of least pressure on the pedals?

--Steve

Well, the spinning out part is great. Sit down get your nose down by the stem and you can really fly past people pushing so much wind. I do have to say though, likely the reason you are not considering yourself a good sprinter is due to the fact that you cant shift from the drops. This is either because you put your hands on the bar ends and not in the forward, power portion of the drops or because you are one of those people who put the brifters ridiculously high on the bar so they point forward and simply cannot be accessed from the drops.

Work on shifting from the drops while standing. It is an easy skill to learn and if you are beating people without being able to do this, imagine how dominant you will be if you can shift from the drops.

I don't really like my bars. They are Deda bars with the ergo shape that is so popular these days. I like the old style rounded curves. At any rate the bars do have a flat like handle at the very end that I like to hold on to during sprints. There is no way I can reach my shift levers from there. They might be a little high but still they require a long reach hand to get to. I don't know if I have ever tried holding on to the flat power position on the bars but it seams awkward. I've tried sprinting on the hoods and while changing gears is easy I just feel like I cannot get any power into the bike and my face is in the wind.

So am I to understand then that most of you sprinters actually change gears in a sprint from the drops?

So am I to understand then that most of you sprinters actually change gears in a sprint from the drops?

Yup. SRAM's new road levers actually have an interesting ergonomic 'feature'...you can hook your index finger around that big ol' paddle on the right side, hold it to the bar, and then all it takes is a little twist of the wrist to upshift in a sprint. I thought it was kinda silly myself until I actually got a hold of their demo set (just two levers on a pair of bars to see what they feel like, not on a bike) and tried it, I think many sprinters could grow to like them.

As for how long to stand up, Danno kind of hit it...it really depends on where your technique is strong. I'm kind of a light guy, but I can generate a lot of snap through technique and being out of the saddle is really where I'm strongest and can spin fastest, so I'll stand up and start looking around early at a low cadence, gradually build it up, upshift, build it up a little higher, upshift again...after 2 or 3 shifts I should be in my optimum gear and nearing my max cadence.

So am I to understand then that most of you sprinters actually change gears in a sprint from the drops?

Back in the day you could bump all the way down with your knee, of course most of us didnt have lower than 14T in back but it was kind of convenient. Developed my sprint on the Track so I pick one gear and shift less (if at all) and sit more than most on the road.

Definitely a good read. I liked the bit about pulling the bike forward. I've learned that somehow I'm doing something right when racing that yellow light.

So here is what happened to me in Saturdays race. My goal was top 5 so I did my best to go with the breaks and real the ones in that were off, eventually it was obvious that a field sprint was going to decide the race. At about 1K I was in perfect position with a fast accelerating group at the front in about 5th position. The guy in front died and I knew that I either had to squeeze around him or get sucked back into the field so I got around him but then found myself on the front at about 200 meters. No one wanted to go around me so I started my sprint by jumping and standing on the pedals. I sat down and got as streamlined as possible and ended up in 11th place :(

So my question is what to do when the guy in front of you dies. Is it better at all costs to just wait for a wheel or did I do the right thing at that point and just give it all I got?

It almost seems to me like it would be better to attack at about 1K because people are always looking for a leadout as the 200 meter mark approaches and this often times actually slows the field down.

Back in the day you could bump all the way down with your knee, of course most of us didnt have lower than 14T in back but it was kind of convenient. Developed my sprint on the Track so I pick one gear and shift less (if at all) and sit more than most on the road.

when men were men.

So my question is what to do when the guy in front of you dies. Is it better at all costs to just wait for a wheel or did I do the right thing at that point and just give it all I got?

It almost seems to me like it would be better to attack at about 1K because people are always looking for a leadout as the 200 meter mark approaches and this often times actually slows the field down.I guess it really depends upon your personal strengths vs. the other guys in the pack. I have explosive power and can put quite a bit of distance on anyone in the beginning, but if I'm out further than 150m, I'm still gonna burn out before the finish and guys with leadout behind will catch up and pass me. Or some other guy with comparable strength to me can sit on my wheel from the beginning and use me as the leadout.

I think you started too early in this case. When the guy in front fades, just move over next to him and maintain the your current speed and position (don't let him slow you down). A new row will come up on either side, maybe both, and hop back on the train in 5-10th positions. Think about the guy who won, ask him where he was in the final 1k of the race. That's where you wanted to be.

My strategy is to always start a sprint on someone's wheel so I only have to exert myself 95-98%. Then save up the final 100% all-out sprint for the last 50m when I'm out in the open passing the 2nd-place guy for the win. It also helps to accelerate in the draft behind someone, then pull out at the last second right before you rear-end them. Gets you up to speed and around them faster than if you pulled sideways into the wind first, then try to accelerate. This is very difficult because you gotta be stronger than the guy in front to out-accelerate him with the same wind-resistance.

Whether a 500m or 1k strategy works or not also depends on the course. Technical finishing turns can make it a little harder for a field to make up ground or come around you (assuming you have some bike handling skill) if you can get a jump on them. In that case your odds are better than a flat straght wide open road finish where your chances are about nill. Ive found this especially effective on crit courses with several fast tight downhill turns prior to the finish.

Related to the above and a good reason to develop a long sprint; If you dont like how the last turn of a Crit course sets up (or the field has been acting squirrley) you can lead it out and still stand a pretty good chance. Sort of a mental bailout that still pays if the finish has you spooked.

If there's not a steep climb or a lot of sharp turns before the finish line, 1k is way too far to go. You aren't sprinting, like someone else said, you're just becoming someone elses leadout most likely. Or if you're not, you're probably going to burn out and die before the end.

I don't look to pull around someone until I'm under 400M, and I'd really rather not do it until a bit after that.. but if you are stuck out like that, sometimes there isn't anything else you can do but go for it or get overwhelmed from behind when you hit the brakes.

Felt dude I think in another thread you said you did the cape fear road race last week end well that is the race I am talking about. I really wanted to attack on the last lap at the base of that last climb the top of which was about 800 meters or so to the line. I was in about 20th position on the climb and couldn't get around anyone mostly because of the yellow line rule and everyone was taking it easy on the climb waiting for a sprint. So that would have probably been a good chance. Anyway thanks for all the advice.

Fly:/yes I hope I added to your thread and didn't hi jack it :)

From http://www.kevinlippert.com/misc.php?show=2&CAmenuOpen=on

"If your rear wheel starts to skip underneath you, your weight is to far forward over the bike." I have been having the problem during my sprint of, it feels like, my rear wheel skipping from side to side. It isn't really spinning (spinning out). From this description my weight is too far forward. I know that I read in a Carmicheal book that standing climbing the tip of the seat should just brush behind you. Is it about the same for sprinting?



How to Sprint using the right technique
So you are in your riding position, seated in the saddle, hands in the drops. You are getting ready to sprint. Your wrists should be on the outside of the handlebar, elbows bent. Your back flat. The reasons for having your hands in the drops, wrists on the outside and elbows bent are; when you are in the drops, you have more control, you have more leverage when you wrench on your bike and your hands are next to the brakes if you need to use them. Having your wrists on the outside of the handlebar gives you more handling control and puts less stress on them. Putting less repeated stress from angular pressure on your wrists will help you prevent the development of carpal tunnel syndrome. Having your elbows bent also gives you more handling control. If someone bumps you during the sprint, your elbows will act as a cushion or shock absorber; keeping your upper body stable and your center of gravity where it should be, so you won't crash. Having straight, stiff arms is the number one cause of rider crashes after not watching what you are doing. Also, you can stick your elbows out to psychologically hinder any riders that are coming up from behind to pass you.

Now it's time to sprint, come up off of the saddle a couple of inches smoothly without throwing your bike backwards. Throwing your bike backwards can cause you to slam your rear wheel into the rider behind you, causing them to crash from losing control. You may also crash from this; by having your rear wheel knocked out from underneath you. Keep your back flat and your weight back over the bottom bracket. In the beginning of your sprint as your pedal goes down, push the bike a little to the opposite side. Remember, I said push your bike over a little! That means about 3 to 4 inches. Keeping your weight over the bottom bracket and off the saddle a couple of inches, you'll keep rocking your bike from side to side to help you accelerate. As your pedal revolutions increase after about 25 to 50 meters, stop the rocking motion and let your bike become stable underneath you. You'll want to have the maximum weight transfer to the pedals as you can. This is accomplished by keeping you weight back over the bottom bracket, with your hips over the bottom bracket, and not rocking your bike after you get this initial acceleration. If your rear wheel starts to skip underneath you, your weight is to far forward over the bike.

Now that you have accelerated on top of the gear, shift up to the next biggest gear. Keep your leg speed up. This is very important, to low of a leg speed will cause you to bog down at the end of a sprint. Too high of a leg speed will be inefficient, causing you to not be as fast as you could be. Make sure you keep breathing during your sprint. This is very important! You maybe anaerobic, but the small amount of oxygen that you receive from breathing may get you that extra 1 to 2 meters that wins the sprint.

Remember to KEEP YOUR HEAD UP and to LOOK DOWN THE ROAD. Concentrate on what you are doing. A classic example of not watching the road in front of you are: Wilfried Nelissen's Tour crash of 1994 and Djamolidin Abdujaparov's Tour crash in 1991. Sorry, but if they would have taken personal responsibility and watched where they were going, neither one of them would never have crashed. If you don't believe me, watch the tape and see that both of these riders have their heads down and are not watching where they are going. Especially when Nelissen ploughs into the policeman.

When sprinting uphill at the front of a group have your hands on the top of the brake hoods and move just a little forward with your weight. Having your hands on top of the brake hoods is a bit more dangerous. However, it opens up your rib cage, lets you breathe easier and is more efficient when going uphill. Make sure you are very careful and you only use this technique when sprinting uphill. Trying this on the flat while in a pack will not be too smart; you will not have as much maneuvering control as if you had your hands in the drops and your elbows bent. Plus, you do not have as much accessibility to the brakes.

If you don't believe me, watch the tape and see that both of these riders have their heads down and are not watching where they are going. Especially when Nelissen ploughs into the policeman.


When those guys are sprinting with their heads down it's so they can see the other cyclists around them. They're supposed to have clear road in front of them (that's why the road is closed), but to see the other sprinters you often look through your own legs or under your armpit. You can see if someone is overlapped and whether you have room to move laterally.

But yeah, in most sprint situations you want to have your head up and watch in front of you.

If you have your head cocked sideways (ear to shoulder, looking down), you can actually look forwards and backwards under your armpit at the same time. One eyeball looks forward and the other looks back at the other riders. Well, usually you have to rock your eyeballs back and forth to see both, but it's done easier and quicker than moving your head around.

The other thing about sprinting out of the saddle is that a lot of people don't have enough upper-body strength to support their weight. So they end up scooting forward to put their weight over the handlebars. This scoots the bike backwards and risks taking out someone's wheel. And climbing onto the bars typically has your upper-body vertical like in climbing hills and you block A LOT of wind. That weight is better kept over the saddle & BB to go into the pedals instead. It's about form and practice. Get your form down by doing lots of sprint-practice solo, get someone to videotape you if you can so that you can keep your head below your butt to keep your back flat and aero (forearms should be parallel with ground too). Also do group sprint-practice to get down tactics and strategy.

Doesn't matter how strong or fit you are, winning and placing in races comes down to sprinting. An extremely rare and small percentage of races are won by people going off the front and soloing across the line by themselves.

Check out this video of me getting dusted in a sprint. I am the guy in the yellow.

Sprint Video (http://www.velotek.com/GP_velotek.html)

My plan was to come off the wheel with about 100 yards to go but I never really found the draft coming in and couldn't pull around the winner. After the race someone pointed out to me that I stayed in the saddle the whole time. I want to think that I could have come around if I stood and/or was closer to the wheel. Any thoughts on what I can do to improve?

IT's kind of hard to really see anything in that video but still it goes to show what I think and that is that split second decisions and a little luck gets you behind the right wheel and to the finish line first.

I'd still be happy with that 3rd place finish though :)

IT's kind of hard to really see anything in that video but still it goes to show what I think and that is that split second decisions and a little luck gets you behind the right wheel and to the finish line first.

I'd still be happy with that 3rd place finish though :)

Assuming it's luck holds many a rider back. I would estimate that 60% to 70% of your success in a sprint comes from choosing the right wheel (and of course knowing how to grab it).

if u are serious then you might try practice
sessions on a stationary where you whip up
to 160-175 rpm cadences and try to hold
them for a few seconds, never dropping below
135 between sets. hold 135 for 30 seconds
or a minute


this will teach your legs to go fast

lotsa sprinters stand and hammer at >150rpm under load

if you practice this in a controlled situation it'll be easier
to do on the road


also do a boatload of squats (rest or ride easy next day)