FraAngelico
Let's say I come out for my lunch break, and down there on 5th Ave, Manhattan, I stumble upon someone stealing my bike. If I clobber him, will I be charged with asault?
Theft, Violence and the Law
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ignominious
Yes. The law only allows for physical violence as an act of self-defence.
You probably wouldn't be prosecuted as voraciously or received as stiff a penalty as you might for an unprovoked attack.
You probably wouldn't be prosecuted as voraciously or received as stiff a penalty as you might for an unprovoked attack.
Keith99
^^
Unfortunately correct. SO go get help say get the H3ll away from my bike when he steps toward you scream help he's attacking me,
Then clober him.
Unfortunately correct. SO go get help say get the H3ll away from my bike when he steps toward you scream help he's attacking me,
Then clober him.
Bockman
You can respond with the amount of force necessary to drive off the thief.
ignominious
Such legal provisions, where they exist, are an unfortunate grey are of the law open to a broad range of interpretations. If the would be thief feels that you are using excessive force then they have the right to exercise self-defence. Would you trust a thief to not sue for damages in the event of an "assault". In today's litigious environment, I certainly wouldn't.
kf5nd
It all varies by State. In Texas, you can use force, but not deadly force, to stop a thief, and you may pursue the thief in order to retrieve your property.
You may actually use DEADLY FORCE to stop theft at night and malicious mischief at night, but not during the day.
You may actually use DEADLY FORCE to stop theft at night and malicious mischief at night, but not during the day.
SamHouston
You may actually use DEADLY FORCE to stop theft at night and malicious mischief at night, but not during the day.
Unless they are on your property and present a threat of any sort.
Unless they are on your property and present a threat of any sort.
Cyclaholic
So.... how much force did you use? :D
If I caught someone stealing my bike I would rip into them with no mercy.
If I caught someone stealing my bike I would rip into them with no mercy.
EricDJ
A punch to the jaw before you grab the bike back and ride off sounds fair to me.
Bikepacker67
Of course you could accidently bump into him with one of these (http://www.free-electronic-circuits.com/circuits/stun-gun.html)...
Bikepacker67
You may actually use DEADLY FORCE to stop theft at night and malicious mischief at night, but not during the day.
So...
Does that take effect at sunset or civil twilight?
So...
Does that take effect at sunset or civil twilight?
supcom
I am proud to live in a place where the innocent citizen is legally permitted to take such reasonable steps necessary to protect himself, his family, and his property.
Personally, I cannot fathom a free society where an honest person has no recourse but to stand by and watch a thief take away the fruits of his labor. It's just incomprehensible to me. I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
Personally, I cannot fathom a free society where an honest person has no recourse but to stand by and watch a thief take away the fruits of his labor. It's just incomprehensible to me. I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
Bikepacker67
I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
Just wait...
The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts hasn't yet gotten around to specifically addressing that naked oppression of the proletariat.
Afterall, the poor ruffian wouldn't try to steal a bike if it weren't for the despicable bourgeoisie draining his lifeblood.
Just wait...
The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts hasn't yet gotten around to specifically addressing that naked oppression of the proletariat.
Afterall, the poor ruffian wouldn't try to steal a bike if it weren't for the despicable bourgeoisie draining his lifeblood.
bennyk
I am proud to live in a place where the innocent citizen is legally permitted to take such reasonable steps necessary to protect himself, his family, and his property.
Reasonable steps is the important part of this. I mean, I can understand protecting yourself or your family, but that's entirely different from your property. There are not a lot of belongings that are worth taking a life. If you're willing to kill someone over your property, well that's shocking.
Reasonable steps is the important part of this. I mean, I can understand protecting yourself or your family, but that's entirely different from your property. There are not a lot of belongings that are worth taking a life. If you're willing to kill someone over your property, well that's shocking.
supcom
Just wait...
The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts hasn't yet gotten around to specifically addressing that naked oppression of the proletariat.
Afterall, the poor ruffian wouldn't try to steal a bike if it weren't for the despicable bourgeoisie draining his lifeblood.
I expect the People's Republic of Massachusetts will be the first to outlaw bike locks.
The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts hasn't yet gotten around to specifically addressing that naked oppression of the proletariat.
Afterall, the poor ruffian wouldn't try to steal a bike if it weren't for the despicable bourgeoisie draining his lifeblood.
I expect the People's Republic of Massachusetts will be the first to outlaw bike locks.
Bikepacker67
I expect the People's Republic of Massachusetts will be the first to outlaw bike locks.
Nahhh... they won't outlaw them.
They'll just tax them.
Afterall, it's not about outlawing behavior (i.e. cigarette smoking) but rather making obscene tax windfalls off the behavior.
Of course, most state budgets would be severely pinched if all the smokers simultaneously quit.
Nahhh... they won't outlaw them.
They'll just tax them.
Afterall, it's not about outlawing behavior (i.e. cigarette smoking) but rather making obscene tax windfalls off the behavior.
Of course, most state budgets would be severely pinched if all the smokers simultaneously quit.
Bikepacker67
[I] There are not a lot of belongings that are worth taking a life. If you're willing to kill someone over your property, well that's shocking.
Hmmm....
Legally gotten "Property" takes TIME to acquire.
For instance, my current steed cost me about 2 months salary to acquire (320 hours of my time).
How is a thief stealing my property not EXACTLY like him/her stealing a portion of my life?
Hmmm....
Legally gotten "Property" takes TIME to acquire.
For instance, my current steed cost me about 2 months salary to acquire (320 hours of my time).
How is a thief stealing my property not EXACTLY like him/her stealing a portion of my life?
bennyk
Hmmm....
Legally gotten "Property" takes TIME to acquire.
For instance, my current steed cost me about 2 months salary to acquire (320 hours of my time).
How is a thief stealing my property not EXACTLY like him/her stealing a portion of my life?
Dude, give me a break.
Legally gotten "Property" takes TIME to acquire.
For instance, my current steed cost me about 2 months salary to acquire (320 hours of my time).
How is a thief stealing my property not EXACTLY like him/her stealing a portion of my life?
Dude, give me a break.
Bikepacker67
Dude, give me a break.
Is that your rebuttal?
Is that your rebuttal?
bennyk
Is that your rebuttal?
Yeah, I guess so. You have already made up your mind, so it's not really going to be much of a discussion. It is up to each of us to decide what is worth hurting others over.
Yeah, I guess so. You have already made up your mind, so it's not really going to be much of a discussion. It is up to each of us to decide what is worth hurting others over.
0_emissions :=)
Depends on the situation, I guess. Best thing is to avoid violence, scream your head off if you're in a public area, and "use your head" if you're not.;) But seriously, just start yelling your head off, act like a freakin' maniac.
SamHouston
I am proud to live in a place where the innocent citizen is legally permitted to take such reasonable steps necessary to protect himself, his family, and his property.
Personally, I cannot fathom a free society where an honest person has no recourse but to stand by and watch a thief take away the fruits of his labor. It's just incomprehensible to me. I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
Where'd you find this imaginary locale? Sounds like a decent fiction author I might want to check out.
Texas & Canada are 2 extremes as far as North America goes, and you aren't required to stand by and watch while you're robbed in either place. You just aren't allowed to forget your own civic duty in the process of defending yourself or your property. All anyone wants you to do is try not to be a monster just because you feel a primal urge.
Personally, I cannot fathom a free society where an honest person has no recourse but to stand by and watch a thief take away the fruits of his labor. It's just incomprehensible to me. I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
Where'd you find this imaginary locale? Sounds like a decent fiction author I might want to check out.
Texas & Canada are 2 extremes as far as North America goes, and you aren't required to stand by and watch while you're robbed in either place. You just aren't allowed to forget your own civic duty in the process of defending yourself or your property. All anyone wants you to do is try not to be a monster just because you feel a primal urge.
Bikepacker67
Yeah, I guess so. You have already made up your mind, so it's not really going to be much of a discussion. It is up to each of us to decide what is worth hurting others over.
Well lets try to get some sort of benchmark, shall we?
What would it take for a peaceable dove such as yourself to defend your turf?
Well lets try to get some sort of benchmark, shall we?
What would it take for a peaceable dove such as yourself to defend your turf?
bennyk
Well lets try to get some sort of benchmark, shall we?
What would it take for a peaceable dove such as yourself to defend your turf?
None of my stuff is worth:
a) the risk that my "defense" will escalate into some real violence, i.e. the thief pulls a weapon
b) taking a life
c) the risk of going to jail or getting prosecuted for assaulting someone
Nothing that I own is really important enough that it would be anything more than a major PITA if it was stolen. It's only stuff. I would prefer for it not to be stolen. You almost certainly have better stuff than I do, so it may be different for you.
If you're talking about defending people instead of objects then that obviously changes things, and we can both agree that's a different question altogether.
Your choice of language and tone in this thread makes you come off as a real prick.
What would it take for a peaceable dove such as yourself to defend your turf?
None of my stuff is worth:
a) the risk that my "defense" will escalate into some real violence, i.e. the thief pulls a weapon
b) taking a life
c) the risk of going to jail or getting prosecuted for assaulting someone
Nothing that I own is really important enough that it would be anything more than a major PITA if it was stolen. It's only stuff. I would prefer for it not to be stolen. You almost certainly have better stuff than I do, so it may be different for you.
If you're talking about defending people instead of objects then that obviously changes things, and we can both agree that's a different question altogether.
Your choice of language and tone in this thread makes you come off as a real prick.
sgtsmile
I seem to recall a young woman, I believe in Toronto, who happened upon someone stealing her bike. In her hand was a second u-lock, which she, in sneaking quietly up on her "victim", wrapped around his head and locked to the fence (his head, that is). She then sat down, lit a cigarette, calmly pulled out her cell phone, and invited the police for a visit. They promptly nailed the would be thief for attempted theft, and the woman for kidnapping and assault (with a weapon I think).
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
supcom
Where'd you find this imaginary locale? Sounds like a decent fiction author I might want to check out.
Texas & Canada are 2 extremes as far as North America goes, and you aren't required to stand by and watch while you're robbed in either place. You just aren't allowed to forget your own civic duty in the process of defending yourself or your property. All anyone wants you to do is try not to be a monster just because you feel a primal urge.
I don't think that anyone has advocated becoming a monster or acting any way but as a reasonable person would act. However, one poster claimed that you could not use any physical violence to stop a crime of theft. Physical violence would encompass any direct action you might take against another, whether it's grabbing his arm, tackling him on the run, or punching him in an effort to prevent him from taking your property. Even in Texas, a reasonable person does not whip out their concealed handgun and shoot someone making off with his rusty old Huffy. But what if the reasonable person came home to find someone setting fire to his unoccupied house? What would be a reasonable response to protect the bulk of ones posessions?
Texas & Canada are 2 extremes as far as North America goes, and you aren't required to stand by and watch while you're robbed in either place. You just aren't allowed to forget your own civic duty in the process of defending yourself or your property. All anyone wants you to do is try not to be a monster just because you feel a primal urge.
I don't think that anyone has advocated becoming a monster or acting any way but as a reasonable person would act. However, one poster claimed that you could not use any physical violence to stop a crime of theft. Physical violence would encompass any direct action you might take against another, whether it's grabbing his arm, tackling him on the run, or punching him in an effort to prevent him from taking your property. Even in Texas, a reasonable person does not whip out their concealed handgun and shoot someone making off with his rusty old Huffy. But what if the reasonable person came home to find someone setting fire to his unoccupied house? What would be a reasonable response to protect the bulk of ones posessions?
0_emissions :=)
I seem to recall a young woman, I believe in Toronto, who happened upon someone stealing her bike. In her hand was a second u-lock, which she, in sneaking quietly up on her "victim", wrapped around his head and locked to the fence (his head, that is). She then sat down, lit a cigarette, calmly pulled out her cell phone, and invited the police for a visit. They promptly nailed the would be thief for attempted theft, and the woman for kidnapping and assault (with a weapon I think).
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
:eek: :eek: That's kinda psychotic, when you think about it. I mean, to sit there calmly, after you've LOCKED SOMEONE TO THE F**KING FENCE! If you're gonna do it, why wouldn't you just do it, then run? why risk getting caught?
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
:eek: :eek: That's kinda psychotic, when you think about it. I mean, to sit there calmly, after you've LOCKED SOMEONE TO THE F**KING FENCE! If you're gonna do it, why wouldn't you just do it, then run? why risk getting caught?
Bikepacker67
Nothing that I own is really important enough that it would be anything more than a major PITA if it was stolen. It's only stuff.
Nothing?
So one could pilfer your house at will, while you dutifully dialed 911?
Nothing?
So one could pilfer your house at will, while you dutifully dialed 911?
bennyk
Nothing?
So one could pilfer your house at will, while you dutifully dialed 911?
I rent ;)
And the person who has the ability to someday steal my entire house will probably take long enough that the authorities will have plenty of time to arrive.
I see your point, that most theives will probably attack someone who is in the way of their goal. That's when it turns into a self-defense situation. If it's just a question of my stuff, with no chance of the theives messing with people, then I guess you're right, I would just wait for the cops.
So one could pilfer your house at will, while you dutifully dialed 911?
I rent ;)
And the person who has the ability to someday steal my entire house will probably take long enough that the authorities will have plenty of time to arrive.
I see your point, that most theives will probably attack someone who is in the way of their goal. That's when it turns into a self-defense situation. If it's just a question of my stuff, with no chance of the theives messing with people, then I guess you're right, I would just wait for the cops.
supcom
I seem to recall a young woman, I believe in Toronto, who happened upon someone stealing her bike. In her hand was a second u-lock, which she, in sneaking quietly up on her "victim", wrapped around his head and locked to the fence (his head, that is). She then sat down, lit a cigarette, calmly pulled out her cell phone, and invited the police for a visit. They promptly nailed the would be thief for attempted theft, and the woman for kidnapping and assault (with a weapon I think).
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
Sounds like an urban legend to me. You would have to be extremely quick to get a Ulock secured against someone who would surely jerk his head at the first touch of the bar against his neck. Not to mention the crook's head would have to been in exactly the right (wrong?) position in the first place.
Not to mention that it would seem very unlikely that the bike owner would have carried a Ulock away from the bike instead of using it to lock the bike in the first place.
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
Sounds like an urban legend to me. You would have to be extremely quick to get a Ulock secured against someone who would surely jerk his head at the first touch of the bar against his neck. Not to mention the crook's head would have to been in exactly the right (wrong?) position in the first place.
Not to mention that it would seem very unlikely that the bike owner would have carried a Ulock away from the bike instead of using it to lock the bike in the first place.
Bikepacker67
I rent ;)
And the person who has the ability to someday steal my entire house will probably take long enough that the authorities will have plenty of time to arrive.
Not if they have your pacifist arse wrapped in duct tape to a kitchen chair.
And the person who has the ability to someday steal my entire house will probably take long enough that the authorities will have plenty of time to arrive.
Not if they have your pacifist arse wrapped in duct tape to a kitchen chair.
Bikepacker67
Your choice of language and tone in this thread makes you come off as a real prick.
Nahh.. I'm a helluva nice guy (and good cook) until ya try to steal my hard earned possessions.
Nahh.. I'm a helluva nice guy (and good cook) until ya try to steal my hard earned possessions.
bennyk
Not if they have your pacifist arse wrapped in duct tape to a kitchen chair.
is it wednesday night already?
is it wednesday night already?
Cyclaholic
I seem to recall a young woman, I believe in Toronto, who happened upon someone stealing her bike. In her hand was a second u-lock, which she, in sneaking quietly up on her "victim", wrapped around his head and locked to the fence (his head, that is). She then sat down, lit a cigarette, calmly pulled out her cell phone, and invited the police for a visit. They promptly nailed the would be thief for attempted theft, and the woman for kidnapping and assault (with a weapon I think).
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
So, what was unreasonable about her restraining him? she applied the minimum necessary force to detain him untill the cops arrived, she could have bashed him after he was restrained but didn't... I'm calling your quoted case for BS.
See, the problem I have with this "is your possession worth your life?" attitude is that my possesions did cost me a portion of my life, the time I spent at work to pay for them, time I could have spent with my family or pursuing an enjoyable activity, and time is the one thing you only get once and never again. That's what is being stolen and why I take theft so seriously. Were you born into wealth? I wasn't.
IF she had flipped out on him, given him a shove, and driven him off, or just quietly called 911 or something, the result would be different.
Reasonable force is accepted here, but as someone said, is your possession worth your life? or a number of years of it while you consider how stupid you were? Cannot bike much in jail...
So, what was unreasonable about her restraining him? she applied the minimum necessary force to detain him untill the cops arrived, she could have bashed him after he was restrained but didn't... I'm calling your quoted case for BS.
See, the problem I have with this "is your possession worth your life?" attitude is that my possesions did cost me a portion of my life, the time I spent at work to pay for them, time I could have spent with my family or pursuing an enjoyable activity, and time is the one thing you only get once and never again. That's what is being stolen and why I take theft so seriously. Were you born into wealth? I wasn't.
Bikepacker67
See, the problem I have with this "is your possession worth your life?" attitude is that my possesions did cost me a portion of my life, the time I spent at work to pay for them, time I could have spent with my family or pursuing an enjoyable activity, and time is the one thing you only get once and never again. That's what is being stolen and why I take theft so seriously. Were you born into wealth? I wasn't.
Ding Ding Ding.
Ding Ding Ding.
SamHouston
I don't think that anyone has advocated becoming a monster or acting any way but as a reasonable person would act. However, one poster claimed that you could not use any physical violence to stop a crime of theft. Physical violence would encompass any direct action you might take against another, whether it's grabbing his arm, tackling him on the run, or punching him in an effort to prevent him from taking your property. Even in Texas, a reasonable person does not whip out their concealed handgun and shoot someone making off with his rusty old Huffy. But what if the reasonable person came home to find someone setting fire to his unoccupied house? What would be a reasonable response to protect the bulk of ones posessions?
Get a hose and get to work while making sure emergency services are on the way would be the proper response.
I got into a bar fight when I was 16 over some a-hole swinging on the (bad) girl I was with. I did a fair job of it though I got some lumps but she didn't leave with me (my good luck for the evening). A much nicer girl told me my mistake, my first concern should've been her, not retal. I lost sight of what was important even though I thought my violent response was appropriate.
I believe the poster your referring to may have meant that physical violence for its own sake is not allowed in those situations. Many people, young dudes mostly and some slower older ones, do walk around hoping for such situations because they think it a free pass to mayhem. That's why the distinction is made.
An attempt at restraint would not be inappropriate, but if the criminal used force to escape you or took risk in flight (driving fast, etc) then it'd be your decision, not theirs that escalates or ends the situation. If you did get them you're busy restaining someone forcefully and have yet to contact police to come and collect them then what are you going to do? You've placed you, the thief and possibly even the officer you havent called yet, that we can presume will eventually arrive in a dangerous situation. To protect what, other peoples bicycles? Yours is safe now. After all, escape is de-escalation, and even trained police officers will allow it when there is no better way to protect bystanders, especially if all they are protecting is property. Much less likely when protecting people, where the only appropriate response is to remove the threat. A rare situation indeed if the officers I’ve met is the norm.
Fact is for most people, if you aren't certain you can detain someone without hurting them in some way, you shouldn't try, not over a property crime. How many petty thieves have you encountered that would not flee at the sound & sight of a grown man shouting thief in a public place? They aren't going to pay for any damage they've done and you've no way to force them to anyway. Guess how many good samaritan points you get for capturing a petty thief? None. Not if it involved an escalation to violence simply because you were offended that they should try to steal your bicycle. Should they become aggressive on thier own, that's a different story and a different question.
Get a hose and get to work while making sure emergency services are on the way would be the proper response.
I got into a bar fight when I was 16 over some a-hole swinging on the (bad) girl I was with. I did a fair job of it though I got some lumps but she didn't leave with me (my good luck for the evening). A much nicer girl told me my mistake, my first concern should've been her, not retal. I lost sight of what was important even though I thought my violent response was appropriate.
I believe the poster your referring to may have meant that physical violence for its own sake is not allowed in those situations. Many people, young dudes mostly and some slower older ones, do walk around hoping for such situations because they think it a free pass to mayhem. That's why the distinction is made.
An attempt at restraint would not be inappropriate, but if the criminal used force to escape you or took risk in flight (driving fast, etc) then it'd be your decision, not theirs that escalates or ends the situation. If you did get them you're busy restaining someone forcefully and have yet to contact police to come and collect them then what are you going to do? You've placed you, the thief and possibly even the officer you havent called yet, that we can presume will eventually arrive in a dangerous situation. To protect what, other peoples bicycles? Yours is safe now. After all, escape is de-escalation, and even trained police officers will allow it when there is no better way to protect bystanders, especially if all they are protecting is property. Much less likely when protecting people, where the only appropriate response is to remove the threat. A rare situation indeed if the officers I’ve met is the norm.
Fact is for most people, if you aren't certain you can detain someone without hurting them in some way, you shouldn't try, not over a property crime. How many petty thieves have you encountered that would not flee at the sound & sight of a grown man shouting thief in a public place? They aren't going to pay for any damage they've done and you've no way to force them to anyway. Guess how many good samaritan points you get for capturing a petty thief? None. Not if it involved an escalation to violence simply because you were offended that they should try to steal your bicycle. Should they become aggressive on thier own, that's a different story and a different question.
SamHouston
See, the problem I have with this "is your possession worth your life?" attitude is that my possesions did cost me a portion of my life, the time I spent at work to pay for them, time I could have spent with my family or pursuing an enjoyable activity, and time is the one thing you only get once and never again. That's what is being stolen and why I take theft so seriously. Were you born into wealth? I wasn't.
The problem I have with that is in the situation given, bicycle theft, petty property crime is not prevented with violence. How does attacking or detaining a thief protect property the theif hasn't got yet>? What you describe is vengence, something society can do without, at least from untrained civilians.
The problem I have with that is in the situation given, bicycle theft, petty property crime is not prevented with violence. How does attacking or detaining a thief protect property the theif hasn't got yet>? What you describe is vengence, something society can do without, at least from untrained civilians.
SamHouston
I see your point, that most theives will probably attack someone who is in the way of their goal. That's when it turns into a self-defense situation. If it's just a question of my stuff, with no chance of the theives messing with people, then I guess you're right, I would just wait for the cops.
I see his point too, but this isn't TV. Most thieves flee, the path of least resistance, at the first sign of detection and sometimes even before that. Most thieves are lazy n'erdowells and often aren't aggressive even when cornered. He thinks they became theives by being real go-getters, real goal oriented people? I don't. I think it's movies and TV where that thief is the norm.
I see his point too, but this isn't TV. Most thieves flee, the path of least resistance, at the first sign of detection and sometimes even before that. Most thieves are lazy n'erdowells and often aren't aggressive even when cornered. He thinks they became theives by being real go-getters, real goal oriented people? I don't. I think it's movies and TV where that thief is the norm.
Bockman
I am proud to live in a place where the innocent citizen is legally permitted to take such reasonable steps necessary to protect himself, his family, and his property.
Personally, I cannot fathom a free society where an honest person has no recourse but to stand by and watch a thief take away the fruits of his labor. It's just incomprehensible to me. I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
There ARE laws on the books concerning maintaining an 'Attractive Nusance'. For example, if I owned an enormous John Deer frontend loader and left it in my front yard with the keys in the ignition, and then some neighborhood kids took it and leveled a few houses with it, I could be prosecuted because I set up a situation where the punks saw the opportunity which they would not have had otherwise. Ridiculous, but true...
Personally, I cannot fathom a free society where an honest person has no recourse but to stand by and watch a thief take away the fruits of his labor. It's just incomprehensible to me. I suspect that such a strange locale would even hold a bike owner liable for improper maintenance should a thief crash while riding off.
There ARE laws on the books concerning maintaining an 'Attractive Nusance'. For example, if I owned an enormous John Deer frontend loader and left it in my front yard with the keys in the ignition, and then some neighborhood kids took it and leveled a few houses with it, I could be prosecuted because I set up a situation where the punks saw the opportunity which they would not have had otherwise. Ridiculous, but true...
supcom
Get a hose and get to work while making sure emergency services are on the way would be the proper response.
I got into a bar fight when I was 16 over some a-hole swinging on the (bad) girl I was with. I did a fair job of it though I got some lumps but she didn't leave with me (my good luck for the evening). A much nicer girl told me my mistake, my first concern should've been her, not retal. I lost sight of what was important even though I thought my violent response was appropriate.
I believe the poster your referring to may have meant that physical violence for its own sake is not allowed in those situations. Many people, young dudes mostly and some slower older ones, do walk around hoping for such situations because they think it a free pass to mayhem. That's why the distinction is made.
An attempt at restraint would not be inappropriate, but if the criminal used force to escape you or took risk in flight (driving fast, etc) then it'd be your decision, not theirs that escalates or ends the situation. If you did get them you're busy restaining someone forcefully and have yet to contact police to come and collect them then what are you going to do? You've placed you, the thief and possibly even the officer you havent called yet, that we can presume will eventually arrive in a dangerous situation. To protect what, other peoples bicycles? Yours is safe now. After all, escape is de-escalation, and even trained police officers will allow it when there is no better way to protect bystanders, especially if all they are protecting is property. Much less likely when protecting people, where the only appropriate response is to remove the threat. A rare situation indeed if the officers I’ve met is the norm.
Fact is for most people, if you aren't certain you can detain someone without hurting them in some way, you shouldn't try, not over a property crime. How many petty thieves have you encountered that would not flee at the sound & sight of a grown man shouting thief in a public place? They aren't going to pay for any damage they've done and you've no way to force them to anyway. Guess how many good samaritan points you get for capturing a petty thief? None. Not if it involved an escalation to violence simply because you were offended that they should try to steal your bicycle. Should they become aggressive on thier own, that's a different story and a different question.
You don't fight a building fire with a garden hose. And once a fire gets started, smoke damage will render most of your posessions worthless. The fire department will ruin the rest putting out the fire. You would be far better served to stop the arsonist from starting the fire in the first place.
Getting into bar fights at age 16?? Y'all get started pretty young up there.
I got into a bar fight when I was 16 over some a-hole swinging on the (bad) girl I was with. I did a fair job of it though I got some lumps but she didn't leave with me (my good luck for the evening). A much nicer girl told me my mistake, my first concern should've been her, not retal. I lost sight of what was important even though I thought my violent response was appropriate.
I believe the poster your referring to may have meant that physical violence for its own sake is not allowed in those situations. Many people, young dudes mostly and some slower older ones, do walk around hoping for such situations because they think it a free pass to mayhem. That's why the distinction is made.
An attempt at restraint would not be inappropriate, but if the criminal used force to escape you or took risk in flight (driving fast, etc) then it'd be your decision, not theirs that escalates or ends the situation. If you did get them you're busy restaining someone forcefully and have yet to contact police to come and collect them then what are you going to do? You've placed you, the thief and possibly even the officer you havent called yet, that we can presume will eventually arrive in a dangerous situation. To protect what, other peoples bicycles? Yours is safe now. After all, escape is de-escalation, and even trained police officers will allow it when there is no better way to protect bystanders, especially if all they are protecting is property. Much less likely when protecting people, where the only appropriate response is to remove the threat. A rare situation indeed if the officers I’ve met is the norm.
Fact is for most people, if you aren't certain you can detain someone without hurting them in some way, you shouldn't try, not over a property crime. How many petty thieves have you encountered that would not flee at the sound & sight of a grown man shouting thief in a public place? They aren't going to pay for any damage they've done and you've no way to force them to anyway. Guess how many good samaritan points you get for capturing a petty thief? None. Not if it involved an escalation to violence simply because you were offended that they should try to steal your bicycle. Should they become aggressive on thier own, that's a different story and a different question.
You don't fight a building fire with a garden hose. And once a fire gets started, smoke damage will render most of your posessions worthless. The fire department will ruin the rest putting out the fire. You would be far better served to stop the arsonist from starting the fire in the first place.
Getting into bar fights at age 16?? Y'all get started pretty young up there.
SamHouston
I'd turn a hose on someone flicking a Bic. :D
Actually I'm from down there, born raised 30 years in H-town and various other Texas locales. They do start younger up here, I think 19 is the drinking age. I was a pissed off youth, one of the reasons I was pissed off was them raising the drinking age to 21 when I had only a short way to go to 18. Turns out drinking legally isn't near as much fun as it is illegally so I gave it up mostly.:)
Actually I'm from down there, born raised 30 years in H-town and various other Texas locales. They do start younger up here, I think 19 is the drinking age. I was a pissed off youth, one of the reasons I was pissed off was them raising the drinking age to 21 when I had only a short way to go to 18. Turns out drinking legally isn't near as much fun as it is illegally so I gave it up mostly.:)
Cyclaholic
Ding Ding Ding.
So you agree with me then.... I thought you would.
So you agree with me then.... I thought you would.
Cyclaholic
The problem I have with that is in the situation given, bicycle theft, petty property crime is not prevented with violence. How does attacking or detaining a thief protect property the theif hasn't got yet>? What you describe is vengence, something society can do without, at least from untrained civilians.
Sam "Ahhh, excuse me, hi, are you stealing my bike"
Thief "Yeah, well, trying to except for this dang lock"
Sam "Oh ok then, ummm, I'll just stand over there untill you're done"
Thief "Great, thanks, just a little to the left you're blocking my light.... say, could I have your U-lock keys?"
Sam "are you threatening to mug me and steal them?"
Thief "....ahh, yeah, sure, why not"
Sam "Well, why didn't you say so.... there you go, and here's my wallet and watch as well"
Thief "Thankyou"
Sam "Sure, any time"
:)
Sam "Ahhh, excuse me, hi, are you stealing my bike"
Thief "Yeah, well, trying to except for this dang lock"
Sam "Oh ok then, ummm, I'll just stand over there untill you're done"
Thief "Great, thanks, just a little to the left you're blocking my light.... say, could I have your U-lock keys?"
Sam "are you threatening to mug me and steal them?"
Thief "....ahh, yeah, sure, why not"
Sam "Well, why didn't you say so.... there you go, and here's my wallet and watch as well"
Thief "Thankyou"
Sam "Sure, any time"
:)
sgtsmile
See, the problem I have with this "is your possession worth your life?" attitude is that my possesions did cost me a portion of my life, the time I spent at work to pay for them, time I could have spent with my family or pursuing an enjoyable activity, and time is the one thing you only get once and never again. That's what is being stolen and why I take theft so seriously. Were you born into wealth? I wasn't.
Heh, perhaps it is BS (my original story that is). I will accept that. The source I got it from is usually reliable though (CBC Toronto).
However, your time is not being stolen. A thing is being stolen. Bicycles are things, even if we love them. My question for you is this: is your possession worth the life/health of another person? If you hurt or maim them as they steal, you are robbing them of time, MORE time than your bike cost you. Considering your possessions to be worth more than another person is selfishness personified. Unless the person stealing your bike is armed (might be the case... your bike worth your life?) odds are you can scare them away since the goal of the bike thief is to escape WITH your bike.
I take theft VERY seriously. My real bikes are locked inside my house. Always. If I commute to work, work has to have a set up for indoor secure bike lock up, or no dice. The only way a person will get my bike is if they break into my house, or "car jack" it from me. Period. And if that happens, we have other concerns (like personal safety, and the safety of my family, which I value above some stupid bike.) Assault to steal a bike is very very rare here. Simple solution is to ride a big box store piece of garbage when you have to lock it up outside and save your real bikes for when you have better storage facilities. Another one is to lock your bike in a very visible place where anyone hacking at the lock will be obvious. Thieves do not like being obvious as it is too easy to get caught....
Check your home insurance policy. Many of them, for minimal money or for free, will let you tack on a bike theft rider. Depends where you live though and what the local policies are.
Heh, perhaps it is BS (my original story that is). I will accept that. The source I got it from is usually reliable though (CBC Toronto).
However, your time is not being stolen. A thing is being stolen. Bicycles are things, even if we love them. My question for you is this: is your possession worth the life/health of another person? If you hurt or maim them as they steal, you are robbing them of time, MORE time than your bike cost you. Considering your possessions to be worth more than another person is selfishness personified. Unless the person stealing your bike is armed (might be the case... your bike worth your life?) odds are you can scare them away since the goal of the bike thief is to escape WITH your bike.
I take theft VERY seriously. My real bikes are locked inside my house. Always. If I commute to work, work has to have a set up for indoor secure bike lock up, or no dice. The only way a person will get my bike is if they break into my house, or "car jack" it from me. Period. And if that happens, we have other concerns (like personal safety, and the safety of my family, which I value above some stupid bike.) Assault to steal a bike is very very rare here. Simple solution is to ride a big box store piece of garbage when you have to lock it up outside and save your real bikes for when you have better storage facilities. Another one is to lock your bike in a very visible place where anyone hacking at the lock will be obvious. Thieves do not like being obvious as it is too easy to get caught....
Check your home insurance policy. Many of them, for minimal money or for free, will let you tack on a bike theft rider. Depends where you live though and what the local policies are.
Cyclaholic
Heh, perhaps it is BS (my original story that is). I will accept that. The source I got it from is usually reliable though (CBC Toronto).
However, your time is not being stolen. A thing is being stolen. Bicycles are things, even if we love them. My question for you is this: is your possession worth the life/health of another person? If you hurt or maim them as they steal, you are robbing them of time, MORE time than your bike cost you. Considering your possessions to be worth more than another person is selfishness personified. Unless the person stealing your bike is armed (might be the case... your bike worth your life?) odds are you can scare them away since the goal of the bike thief is to escape WITH your bike.
I take theft VERY seriously. My real bikes are locked inside my house. Always. If I commute to work, work has to have a set up for indoor secure bike lock up, or no dice. The only way a person will get my bike is if they break into my house, or "car jack" it from me. Period. And if that happens, we have other concerns (like personal safety, and the safety of my family, which I value above some stupid bike.) Assault to steal a bike is very very rare here. Simple solution is to ride a big box store piece of garbage when you have to lock it up outside and save your real bikes for when you have better storage facilities. Another one is to lock your bike in a very visible place where anyone hacking at the lock will be obvious. Thieves do not like being obvious as it is too easy to get caught....
Check your home insurance policy. Many of them, for minimal money or for free, will let you tack on a bike theft rider. Depends where you live though and what the local policies are.
I understand where youre coming from even though I see it a little diferent in that I beleive a criminal bears the responsibility for the consequences of his actions when he decides to perpetrate a crime against me, even if the chain of events initiated by the criminal act leads to the criminal suffering bodily harm. I'm also aware that harm may come to me if I choose to confront. We each need to know our limitations and make our decisions then accept the consequences.
I was assaulted for my bike once by two males in their late teens maybe early 20's when I was 10 years old, one of them hit me hard enough that I almost blacked out. A bike is definitely not worth my (or anyone elses) life. Fortunately its a very rare crime here also.
However, your time is not being stolen. A thing is being stolen. Bicycles are things, even if we love them. My question for you is this: is your possession worth the life/health of another person? If you hurt or maim them as they steal, you are robbing them of time, MORE time than your bike cost you. Considering your possessions to be worth more than another person is selfishness personified. Unless the person stealing your bike is armed (might be the case... your bike worth your life?) odds are you can scare them away since the goal of the bike thief is to escape WITH your bike.
I take theft VERY seriously. My real bikes are locked inside my house. Always. If I commute to work, work has to have a set up for indoor secure bike lock up, or no dice. The only way a person will get my bike is if they break into my house, or "car jack" it from me. Period. And if that happens, we have other concerns (like personal safety, and the safety of my family, which I value above some stupid bike.) Assault to steal a bike is very very rare here. Simple solution is to ride a big box store piece of garbage when you have to lock it up outside and save your real bikes for when you have better storage facilities. Another one is to lock your bike in a very visible place where anyone hacking at the lock will be obvious. Thieves do not like being obvious as it is too easy to get caught....
Check your home insurance policy. Many of them, for minimal money or for free, will let you tack on a bike theft rider. Depends where you live though and what the local policies are.
I understand where youre coming from even though I see it a little diferent in that I beleive a criminal bears the responsibility for the consequences of his actions when he decides to perpetrate a crime against me, even if the chain of events initiated by the criminal act leads to the criminal suffering bodily harm. I'm also aware that harm may come to me if I choose to confront. We each need to know our limitations and make our decisions then accept the consequences.
I was assaulted for my bike once by two males in their late teens maybe early 20's when I was 10 years old, one of them hit me hard enough that I almost blacked out. A bike is definitely not worth my (or anyone elses) life. Fortunately its a very rare crime here also.
SamHouston
Sam "Ahhh, excuse me, hi, are you stealing my bike"
Thief "Yeah, well, trying to except for this dang lock"
Sam "Oh ok then, ummm, I'll just stand over there untill you're done"
Thief "Great, thanks, just a little to the left you're blocking my light.... say, could I have your U-lock keys?"
Sam "are you threatening to mug me and steal them?"
Thief "....ahh, yeah, sure, why not"
Sam "Well, why didn't you say so.... there you go, and here's my wallet and watch as well"
Thief "Thankyou"
Sam "Sure, any time"
:)
and you aren't required to stand by and watch while you're robbed in either place.
An attempt at restraint would not be inappropriate
Just because I don't advocate needless violence or giving in to an urge for vengeance you shouldn't take that to mean I'm weak or passive. Ever heard of reading comprehension? Basically, making a petty thief go away is enough. Who needs to do more? Only people that forget they're better than the thief, that this scrap of flesh scrabbling away at the lock on property you came by honourably is so far beneath you they're inconsequential and not worth breaking a sweat over. So if you aren't big enough to look at it the way society has determined you should and scare off the thief or call police, you can just go with that sort of inflated-ego thing to avoid violence. Most people I've met who -need- to settle things physically have inflated egos, they can use that to avoid trouble don't you think?
Thief "Yeah, well, trying to except for this dang lock"
Sam "Oh ok then, ummm, I'll just stand over there untill you're done"
Thief "Great, thanks, just a little to the left you're blocking my light.... say, could I have your U-lock keys?"
Sam "are you threatening to mug me and steal them?"
Thief "....ahh, yeah, sure, why not"
Sam "Well, why didn't you say so.... there you go, and here's my wallet and watch as well"
Thief "Thankyou"
Sam "Sure, any time"
:)
and you aren't required to stand by and watch while you're robbed in either place.
An attempt at restraint would not be inappropriate
Just because I don't advocate needless violence or giving in to an urge for vengeance you shouldn't take that to mean I'm weak or passive. Ever heard of reading comprehension? Basically, making a petty thief go away is enough. Who needs to do more? Only people that forget they're better than the thief, that this scrap of flesh scrabbling away at the lock on property you came by honourably is so far beneath you they're inconsequential and not worth breaking a sweat over. So if you aren't big enough to look at it the way society has determined you should and scare off the thief or call police, you can just go with that sort of inflated-ego thing to avoid violence. Most people I've met who -need- to settle things physically have inflated egos, they can use that to avoid trouble don't you think?
bennyk
See, the problem I have with this "is your possession worth your life?" attitude is that my possesions did cost me a portion of my life, the time I spent at work to pay for them, time I could have spent with my family or pursuing an enjoyable activity, and time is the one thing you only get once and never again. That's what is being stolen and why I take theft so seriously. Were you born into wealth? I wasn't.
If you're willing to die for your plasma tv then we simply see things very differently. Sure, getting possesions takes money and time. If you're going to react with violence to stem off any activity that keeps you from spending your time how you want, then I am concerned for your boss, your lawn, and your DMV. We exchange this time to get something in return.
You are exchanging your time for an object. One of the tricky things about objects is that they break and can be taken away. It is on you to decide whether this tradeoff is worth it. You make it sound like you're not willing to give up the time to earn these things in the first place.
W/R/T my attitude toward my posessions, it stems from the fact that I don't really own many objects of real value to other people, and frankly, you're right, I don't really want to hurt another person or risk going to jail myself. Since you seem very interested in my financial situation, you should know that I don't really have any ability to replace the stuff that I have worked very hard to earn. I did the work- that time is gone already, and I used it to pay for the stuff I have had the opportunity to own. No part of this transaction entitles me to some permanent cosmic immunity to the normal properties of objects.
I would shout at the theif, probably run toward him, possibly shove him out of the way if he's roughly the same size as me, but that would be about it. If that doesn't make him get lost, I'm not walking away, but I'm definitely getting help from people nearby and the cops. I'm not the big tough guy that you seem to be, and I'm not going to take the risk of engaging this guy, cause it's very likely I'd get stomped.
If you're willing to die for your plasma tv then we simply see things very differently. Sure, getting possesions takes money and time. If you're going to react with violence to stem off any activity that keeps you from spending your time how you want, then I am concerned for your boss, your lawn, and your DMV. We exchange this time to get something in return.
You are exchanging your time for an object. One of the tricky things about objects is that they break and can be taken away. It is on you to decide whether this tradeoff is worth it. You make it sound like you're not willing to give up the time to earn these things in the first place.
W/R/T my attitude toward my posessions, it stems from the fact that I don't really own many objects of real value to other people, and frankly, you're right, I don't really want to hurt another person or risk going to jail myself. Since you seem very interested in my financial situation, you should know that I don't really have any ability to replace the stuff that I have worked very hard to earn. I did the work- that time is gone already, and I used it to pay for the stuff I have had the opportunity to own. No part of this transaction entitles me to some permanent cosmic immunity to the normal properties of objects.
I would shout at the theif, probably run toward him, possibly shove him out of the way if he's roughly the same size as me, but that would be about it. If that doesn't make him get lost, I'm not walking away, but I'm definitely getting help from people nearby and the cops. I'm not the big tough guy that you seem to be, and I'm not going to take the risk of engaging this guy, cause it's very likely I'd get stomped.
buzzman
Everyone who has posted on this topic should rent and watch The Bicycle Thief (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040522/) Vittorio Sica's classic film. and then reconvene to this thread after the weekend.
LittleBigMan
Couldn't you say you were trying to get your bike back, then the thief attacked you, then you fought back?
However, I'd stay away from a thief, he might be armed/crazy. Keep cell phone handy, dial 911, follow thief at safe distance if possible.
However, I'd stay away from a thief, he might be armed/crazy. Keep cell phone handy, dial 911, follow thief at safe distance if possible.
Cyclaholic
If you're willing to die for your plasma tv then we simply see things very differently. Sure, getting possesions takes money and time. If you're going to react with violence to stem off any activity that keeps you from spending your time how you want, then I am concerned for your boss, your lawn, and your DMV. We exchange this time to get something in return.
You are exchanging your time for an object. One of the tricky things about objects is that they break and can be taken away. It is on you to decide whether this tradeoff is worth it. You make it sound like you're not willing to give up the time to earn these things in the first place.
W/R/T my attitude toward my posessions, it stems from the fact that I don't really own many objects of real value to other people, and frankly, you're right, I don't really want to hurt another person or risk going to jail myself. Since you seem very interested in my financial situation, you should know that I don't really have any ability to replace the stuff that I have worked very hard to earn. I did the work- that time is gone already, and I used it to pay for the stuff I have had the opportunity to own. No part of this transaction entitles me to some permanent cosmic immunity to the normal properties of objects.
I would shout at the theif, probably run toward him, possibly shove him out of the way if he's roughly the same size as me, but that would be about it. If that doesn't make him get lost, I'm not walking away, but I'm definitely getting help from people nearby and the cops. I'm not the big tough guy that you seem to be, and I'm not going to take the risk of engaging this guy, cause it's very likely I'd get stomped.
Good reply, thanks. I look at my kids and think "if they were watching the altercation with a thief what sort of example would I want to set for them" and I can't disagree with what you posted.... best live to enjoy another day.
You are exchanging your time for an object. One of the tricky things about objects is that they break and can be taken away. It is on you to decide whether this tradeoff is worth it. You make it sound like you're not willing to give up the time to earn these things in the first place.
W/R/T my attitude toward my posessions, it stems from the fact that I don't really own many objects of real value to other people, and frankly, you're right, I don't really want to hurt another person or risk going to jail myself. Since you seem very interested in my financial situation, you should know that I don't really have any ability to replace the stuff that I have worked very hard to earn. I did the work- that time is gone already, and I used it to pay for the stuff I have had the opportunity to own. No part of this transaction entitles me to some permanent cosmic immunity to the normal properties of objects.
I would shout at the theif, probably run toward him, possibly shove him out of the way if he's roughly the same size as me, but that would be about it. If that doesn't make him get lost, I'm not walking away, but I'm definitely getting help from people nearby and the cops. I'm not the big tough guy that you seem to be, and I'm not going to take the risk of engaging this guy, cause it's very likely I'd get stomped.
Good reply, thanks. I look at my kids and think "if they were watching the altercation with a thief what sort of example would I want to set for them" and I can't disagree with what you posted.... best live to enjoy another day.
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Common bike forum topics in clue bicycles, cycling, mountain biking,
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Common bike forum topics in clue bicycles, cycling, mountain biking,
cycling jerseys, shorts, socks, shoes and bike equiptment selection.