Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Dumb fixed gear question

How do come to a quick stop if you don't have any brakes on your fixed gear bike? I've seen some of you guys have a front brake but plenty of the bike don't have any brakes. Is this safe?
I see people talking about riding fixed in NYC and I can't see how they could ride in that tough environment without brakes.

If you resist the pedaling motion hard enough, you can stop the rotation of the rear wheel, effectively using your legs as a brake. If you stop the rear wheel and keep it stopped, so it skids across the road, that's called a "skid". If you make a bunch of mini-skids by stopping the rotation until it skids, letting it roll more, skidding, etc, that's called "skipping". Skipping works better for stopping that skidding. Do a search and find hundreds of threads about skidding and skipping.

also if you get good at it you can start a skid and then swing the back out to the side. its a hockey stop. The trick with riding breakless is you have enough control that you never need to stop that fast. if you think things are getting dangerous slow down. admitedly i still haul ass across the city so I might be a little suicidal/********. its fun though, and a good way to wake me up fast in the morning. I'm pretty alert and focused about my surroundings and situation when I'm riding.

read this: http://63xc.com/gregg/101_1.htm

How do come to a quick stop if you don't have any brakes on your fixed gear bike? [QUOTE]
you can't stop as fast

[QUOTE] Is this safe?
compared to having a brake, it is not safe


I see people talking about riding fixed in NYC and I can't see how they could ride in that tough environment without brakes.
by riding slower or more recklessly and claiming to be able to predict the future.

thanks for trolling.

First the disclaimer: Some people ride without a brake, some prefer to have one. It's all based on how experienced and confident you are and personal preference. I, personally, perfer to have a brake at the ready even if I can do most of my riding without touching it. Call it unmanly if you must, but I also haven't been to the emergency room as a result of biking yet, and I've put on about 1800 miles so far this year.

Since the drivetrain is rigid (so to speak), the rider can slow the bike down by fighting the pedals with his/her feet. It sounds inelegant, but just think about how you "fight" the pedals to speed up a bike and imagine having the ability to slow down the bike by resisting the pedals' rotation. Stopping faster without using a brake usually involves locking up the rear wheel using the pedals. If you stand up and more or less lock your knees rigid the correct way, you can have enough force to make the rear wheel stop turning and skid along the pavement.

This stops you pretty quickly, but it is still nowhere near as effective as a good front brake, since the bike tends to lift the rear wheel off the ground under deceleration forces until the wheel doesn't provide much deceleration anymore. The front wheel is pressed harder against the pavement when the brakes are applied and will bit in harder and harder until you flip the bike over forwards. Even with the best skid and a skilled rider, a brakeless fixie can stop no sooner than a cruiser bike with a coaster brake (remember that coaster brake bike you had as a kid?) for these reasons.

In short, brakeless is nice on the track and for show, but it is much easier to get yourself into spooky or dangerous situations where a front brake would be a tremendous help. Now a certain population of the board gets to flame me for my views... :rolleyes:

christ, you have more questions than pistaboy

[QUOTE]How do come to a quick stop if you don't have any brakes on your fixed gear bike? [QUOTE]
you can't stop as fast


compared to having a brake, it is not safe


by riding slower or more recklessly and claiming to be able to predict the future.

thanks for trolling.

you're the one doing the trolling. my worst accident on a bike was made worse by the brake. Just saying. im totally in favor of people who are new to riding fixed having brakes. i don't mostly because theres nothing for me to attach one too and i feel comfortable without it.

the best way to stop fast on bike without brakes is to run into something.

you're the one doing the trolling. my worst accident on a bike was made worse by the brake. Just saying. im totally in favor of people who are new to riding fixed having brakes. i don't mostly because theres nothing for me to attach one too and i feel comfortable without it.

explain please

how was your accident made worse? Did you endo becuase you have poor bike handling skills or did you stop to fast only to be rammed by someone behind you. If the former I suggest you use your brake more often if the latter then I suggest you avoid letting incompetent riders on your wheel.

Its kinda hard to argue that you can stop just as fast without a front brake or that ability doesn't make you safer. The ONLY way to ride as safely brakeless is to ride slower. The last bit was intended to be tounge in cheek.

going down a steep hill, was cut off by a very stoned mountain biker. i initiated a skid and was lightly squeezing the front brake to slow down faster. however when i ran into the other cyclist my hand instinctively squeezed and my front wheel locked up. i was still going fast enough that it caused my back wheel to lift and me flying down the hill. i snapped my arm in half. had i not done that i probably would have pushed through him and fallen on my side. part my own error, but thats what happened. this was at critical mass so incompetent riders on your wheel is kind of inevitable. needless to say i dont do critical mass anymore.

i just think that if you're in a situation where you have to slam on your brakes, you're probably ****ed anyway.

when i ride i am not going as fast as i can and then stopping as fast as i can. i am trying to pace traffic, stop lights, etc. speed in city riding is not soley determined by how hard you push the pedals, but how well you ride in traffic. i know the timing of the stop lights on my commute from work by heart and can often get home without ever having to stop.

So it was the former then.
There will be unexpected crap that you have to stop for. To ride safely you need to be able to stop in time to avoid it. Therefore if you stopping distance is lenghtened you must ride slower to maintain the same level of safety.

If riding brakeless gives you a sense of accomplishment or makes you feel more manly fine. It is either slower or more dangerous however. There is no way around it.

*combs chest hair* i do it cuz its fun and im comfortable with it. and i dont wanna drill holes in some very nice forks.

okay fine. its more dangerous. but most people who are doing it are probably more technically proficient riders who are more aware of their surroundings and more comfortable with riding in the city. which makes them safer riders.

Not saying i dont know some very skilled riders who have brakes, because I do.

going down a steep hill, was cut off by a very stoned mountain biker. i initiated a skid and was lightly squeezing the front brake to slow down faster. however when i ran into the other cyclist my hand instinctively squeezed and my front wheel locked up. i was still going fast enough that it caused my back wheel to lift and me flying down the hill. i snapped my arm in half. had i not done that i probably would have pushed through him and fallen on my side. part my own error, but thats what happened.


Thats what happend to me but with a car cutting me off. I still use a brake but i am a lot more selective of when and have it set up so it doesnt get tight till its nearly pulled all the way in.

you know until somebody starts collecting data on the number of bike accidents involving handbrakeless track bikes, we can't say that it's more dangerous*. we're just going to have to say that some people are completely competant at riding without a handbrake, and other people will throw rocks at those people, and there are going to be a whole lot of people caught in the middle who say "do what you want to, just be safe."

*what we can say is that encouraging people who aren't skille riders to ride without a handbrake would be dangerous. good thing that's not done, and for the most part, the only people i know or have seen riding without a handbrake have been fairly experienced and skilled riders.

and so, pathdoc, since you're new, i and many others would suggest you ride with a brake. keep it on and learn non-handbrake stopping methods, and when you realize that you haven't touched that brake in a few weeks, then say, "huh, i haven't used it." and then go where you feel like going from there.

damn. why does this conversation always come up?

From my personal opinion, as I ride with and without a brake depending on mood nowadays.

1) brakes: great for really aggresive riding. The extra comfort of having an "oh ****" lever is really nice when pushing really hard, or on longer rides where about 30 miles your legs don't want to do all the work on a steep downhill with little or no runout.

2) no brakes: what can I say that already hasn't been said. Its a beautiful thing. It feels amazing only relying on your body's own strength for acceleration and deceleration, and is incomparable to any other biking experience. You can stop well enough, and I'd say that starting off you should definitely use the brake until you get your feet and legs under you and are confident enough to ride without brakes.

I don't want to get into safety issues, as everyone's experience is different, but be careful if you go brakeless as a small mistake can get you in real deep **** you might be able to get out of with one.

I don't have the guts to try riding without hand brakes. I really was just wondering how anyone could pull that off.

You can, but it requires a lot more skill and practice, and is very hard on your body and the bike.

So, no, it's not a dumb question. People that think 'brakeless is just as good' are dumb, or omitting critical information to further the inflation of their egos.

Brakes
Helmets
Lights
Reflectors
Beer
Clothing
Pizza

None are 'necessary', but all have intrinsic plusses and minuses.

Do what you want, suffer the consequenses.

If you stand up and more or less lock your knees rigid the correct way, you can have enough force to make the rear wheel stop turning and skid along the pavement.



Does that have a lot of impact on your knees? If you were going fast, it sounds like that would hurt.

A skilled rider without handbrakes is far safer than an unskilled rider with.

Does that have a lot of impact on your knees? If you were going fast, it sounds like that would hurt.
Depends on your gearing. If you're leaning forward enough you are shifting your weight off the rear wheel which makes it easier to skid. admitedly the more weight you have off the back wheel the longer the skid and thusly, more impractical. i skip and backpedal for 90% of my stopping, which i dont think is very bad for the knees.

A skilled rider without handbrakes is far safer than an unskilled rider with.

You can only get skilled by practicing. Better to be safe while doing so.

Does that have a lot of impact on your knees? If you were going fast, it sounds like that would hurt.

it is alot less hard on your knees then stopping without skidding would be but harder on them then using a brake.

it is alot less hard on your knees then stopping without skidding would be but harder on them then using a brake.

Yes but think of the impact on your knuckles that is caused by stopping with handbrakes! Carpal tunnel omg! :P

Depends on your gearing. If you're leaning forward enough you are shifting your weight off the rear wheel which makes it easier to skid. admitedly the more weight you have off the back wheel the longer the skid and thusly, more impractical. i skip and backpedal for 90% of my stopping, which i dont think is very bad for the knees.

Thanks 128! I think backpedaling is probably a lot easier on the knees, because you are not locking them and most of the force comes from the calves. It seems like you would have more control that way as well. :)

welcome. i think skipping is the easiest way to stop, at least when it comes to how much stress is being put on the body. I live in hilly terrain with a good amount of car traffic (which is basically describes san francisco in general :P) and push around 72" which is I feel gives me the best combination of control and speed. You can also control a bit how fast you want to skid by having a little give and take with your locked leg. If you push the pedal so your wheel is actually going backwards you will stop faster. admitedly, more stress on your knee. If the bike film festival ever comes into your town watch mash, theres a fun little bit where one of the riders goes fast, and then skids up a hill, turns around (while still skidding) and then skids back down again. pretty funny, gives you a good idea of how much control you can have with your bike while in a skid once you get comfortable with it. Deffinately beyond my skill level, but its cool. Something for me to work towards I suppose :)

gotta start out slow. I am the worst skidder, but I can back pedal and skip. As onetwentyeight said, that used the majority of the time.

I have a brake. For the longest time I hardly used it all because I wanted to become comfortable without it.

Used it to stop and slow quite a bit on my commute this morning 'cause I rode pretty hard (geared, roadie, group-ride), on Tuesday, and went running last night and my knees were hurting me this morning. I like having the option of using a brake in that circumstance...

If you make a bunch of mini-skids by stopping the rotation until it skids, letting it roll more, skidding, etc, that's called "skipping".

I kind of thought skipping is called skipping because, to me, the rear tire feels like it's actually skipping; bouncing up and down a little while the rear tire is locked/released/locked. I don't know if the tire actually leaves the ground or not.

I ride with a front brake and even use it on occasion. I can stop quickly with just my legs but the distance is shorter with the front brake applied. My rear tire frequently lifts when I apply the hand brake.

Is this safe?

no. that's the point.


but most people who are doing it are probably more technically proficient riders who are more aware of their surroundings and more comfortable with riding in the city. which makes them safer riders.

i remember reading somewhere that you're eleven times more likely to die in a collision if you're riding on the sidewalk than you are if you're on the street. now, it can be argued that you're safer on the street because cars can see you and you are predictable and all that noise, but it doesn't account for a factor of eleven. it's the difference in skill level between the average sidewalk rider and the average street rider that accounts for the relative mortality rates. same thing with not having brakes, they're PROBABLY stronger, more confident cyclists. the problem occurs when someone who is not a strong rider takes off their brakes before they should. fwiw i have a front brake which, like my helmet, i neither use nor apologize for.

the utility of a brake also depends on where you ride. when i was at my old job, i did 100% of my riding in boston and through a lot of traffic. i never used my brake.

now i commute 16 miles a day through the suburbs of boston and i use my brake regularly. there are 2 relatively steep hills that run down into intersections on my route, that would be really difficult to tackle without a brake. there also are a lot of hills, and i can go down them (safely) a lot faster and easer by using a brake to slow down.

as far as i'm concerned one can be safe riding brakeless. for every story about how a brake saved the day , there's another for how it exacerbated an accident.

richard - its called skipping because the motion you make with your legs is similar to skipping. I make a little hop (i usually have my right leg in front, its more comfortable but I can do it with both) and quickly pull up on my right foot and push down with my left. Sometimes the tire gets off the ground, sometimes it doesnt, but weight is taken off it to make it easier. I continue pedaling the instant the skip is over and will sometimes follow it up with another.

the problem occurs when someone who is not a strong rider takes off their brakes before they should. fwiw i have a front brake which, like my helmet, i neither use nor apoligize for.

Agreed. and no need to apologize, im in favor of people doing whatever they are most comfortable with. I have a helmet, too (that i dont use enough cuz im an idiot. it comes out mostly when I am riding in the rain).

its called skipping because the motion you make with your legs is similar to skipping.

Wow, never realized that.
That would have been so helpful when I was learning how to do it.

yea. the day someone told me that was the day i figured out how to do it comfortably :P

Agreed. and no need to apologize, im in favor of people doing whatever they are most comfortable with. I have a helmet, too (that i dont use enough cuz im an idiot. it comes out mostly when I am riding in the rain).

haha, i mean i wear it, i just try to avoid hitting my head on stuff :D

+1 on riding how you're comfortable

god i hope we're all avoiding trying to hit our head on stuff :) hahahaha. really i do consider myself stupid for not wearing a helmet but ive never found one i was comfortable wearing. *siiigh*

no. that's the point.



i remember reading somewhere that you're eleven times more likely to die in a collision if you're riding on the sidewalk than you are if you're on the street. now, it can be argued that you're safer on the street because cars can see you and you are predictable and all that noise, but it doesn't account for a factor of eleven.

All of my closest calls are on the sidewalk. Cars are looking for other fast moving vehicles on the road - they don't look for a 25mph vehicle on the sidewalk. When you drive a car, how many times do you come to a full stop before you pull onto the sidewalk. That **** is usually reserved for the road.

25mph on the sidewalk?

Lately I've been thinking about running a break, but the thing that is holding me back is I can't decide where I'd put it. I like to use all the positions on the drops and I hate the idea of having one of my hands drawn to a certain place. Of course I could just not use it all the time, but I'm lazy and probably wouldn't be able to resist.

All of my closest calls are on the sidewalk. Cars are looking for other fast moving vehicles on the road - they don't look for a 25mph vehicle on the sidewalk. When you drive a car, how many times do you come to a full stop before you pull onto the sidewalk. That **** is usually reserved for the road.
+1, the only time I ever got hit was because I was riding on the sidewalk. It's stupid.

Lately I've been thinking about running a break, but the thing that is holding me back is I can't decide where I'd put it. I like to use all the positions on the drops and I hate the idea of having one of my hands drawn to a certain place. Of course I could just not use it all the time, but I'm lazy and probably wouldn't be able to resist.

i like the cross lever just under the flats. it doesn't get in my hands' way, and i'm not tempted to use it. traditional road brakes are also nice because you can ride with your hands up on the brake hoods, which is a lot of people's favorite hand position.

Brakes
Helmets
Lights
Reflectors
Beer
Clothing
Pizza

None are 'necessary', but all have intrinsic plusses and minuses.

Do what you want, suffer the consequenses.

Liar! Pizza *is* necessary!

richard - its called skipping because the motion you make with your legs is similar to skipping. I make a little hop (i usually have my right leg in front, its more comfortable but I can do it with both) and quickly pull up on my right foot and push down with my left. Sometimes the tire gets off the ground, sometimes it doesnt, but weight is taken off it to make it easier. I continue pedaling the instant the skip is over and will sometimes follow it up with another.

well i think there are two schools of thought here.

skipping as in "loo, loo, skip to my..." would be called skipping because if you mini-skid several times in succession, 2x per revolution (each foot forward), it looks or feels a bit like skipping.

then there's skipping, as in a stone on water, which would be kind of like skidding, except sort of bouncing the rear tire. which i've done. and is really, really hard on the drivetrain.

For me riding brakeless is definitely more safe. And I comprehend the many of you will never understand that. You guys just read your statistics and crunch your numbers and come up with you technical answers abut how you can stop faster with brakes and blah, blah, frickin' blah. It is not always about using your brakes. I have broken many bones riding bikes, and all with brakes. I have been in accidents because I clamped down too hard on my brake and supermanned over the handlebars, or because I couldn't brake fast enough but went for the brake anyway out of instinct, or because my brakes failed to mechanical problems or weather.

For me riding brakeless is a completely different animal. I am definitely more awake, more aware of my surrounding and therefore less likely to get into get myself into a situation where I will need to stop fast. Also I know how fast I can stop with my feet, and my first instinct is not always to stop, but to avoid the accident, to turn out of the situation, which would have saved my *** many times while riding with brakes. Sure most of these techniques can be applied to bikes with a brake but who really thinks about them when you have a brake to safe you from every evil that should come your way.

I once heard someone say "if God wants you to stop you'll stop."

Also, I don't ride brakeless because it is "manly", I do it for the ladies.

It also helps a LOT, for me at least, to stay very calm when i'm riding. I've been riding brakeless for awhile and get into some pretty sticky situations with cars... so I always try and stay very, very calm when riding. No jerky movements, no nervousness, and no becoming distracted.

I think riding brakeless is all about how the rider actually rides. Just have to be smart about it.

But brakes or no brakes... bicycles = :).