Road Cycling - 11 speed rear der

Somewhere I read that Shimano was coming out with an 11 speed rear derailleur sometime in '03. Has anyone heard any details? Rumor or fact? Will it allow a wider range, or just smaller steps? Maybe support up-shifting multiple cogs, a la Campy Ergo? I'm hard-pressed to see a significant advantage over 9 cogs. A gripe I have with the 9 speeds when going through the gears (up or down), a front shift requires a double rear shift to get to the next ratio. Maybe the 11 will require 3.

Isn't this a case of "More is, well, more..." type of thinking? I mean, really -- what's the point of 11 cogs in the back when you can't realistically use all of the gear combos offered by 8 or 9-speed cassettes that are common now?

11 is alot of gears in back, I mean with shimano you get choice of up to 27 gears..and campy 30 gears. HOw many gears can we use? Of course if 11 speed comes out I will admit I would like to get it just to try out hahaha :)

Reminds me of one of my favorite movies (This is Spinal Tap):

Nigel: "You're up to 10 on your guitar and up to 10 on your amp and you need that extra little push to set it over the top and you got nowhere else to go. So this amp goes to 11."

Interviewer: "I see. But why not just make 10 louder."

Nigel: "But it goes to 11."

Interviewer: "Yeah, but what if you just made 10 as loud as 11?"

Nigel: "But...it goes to 11."

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Somewhere I read that Shimano was coming out with an 11 speed rear derailleur sometime in '03. Has anyone heard any details? Rumor or fact? Will it allow a wider range, or just smaller steps? Maybe support up-shifting multiple cogs, a la Campy Ergo? I'm hard-pressed to see a significant advantage over 9 cogs. A gripe I have with the 9 speeds when going through the gears (up or down), a front shift requires a double rear shift to get to the next ratio. Maybe the 11 will require 3. Campys 10 speed provided wider range or closer spacing options. The speeds are in the cassete and,not the derailer.

Heard rumors about the 11 speed. It involved a one sided chain, which was proving tobe tough to make strong enough, so Shimano dropped it.

Makes you wonder just where it will end. How about a Rohloff 14-speed hub with Campy 3x10?

Originally posted by Grendel
Reminds me of one of my favorite movies (This is Spinal Tap):

Nigel: "You're up to 10 on your guitar and up to 10 on your amp and you need that extra little push to set it over the top and you got nowhere else to go. So this amp goes to 11."

Interviewer: "I see. But why not just make 10 louder."

Nigel: "But it goes to 11."

Interviewer: "Yeah, but what if you just made 10 as loud as 11?"

Nigel: "But...it goes to 11."

LOL :D

What I've heard and read (cyclingnews, velonews) is
that Shimano patented a 14 cog freehub that used
a halfmoon shaped chain (no bottom portion?) because of the
required narrowness of cogs. As this also required some
severe dish in wheels they felt it was unmarketable at
present and went with an 11 cog setup. I wonder how
Campy is gonna respond.
Frankly, I think 7 or 8 speed was fine, especially if you
use a triple up front
I for one will not be rushing out to buy 11 speed,
14 speed or whatever.
I just might convert my 8 speed to 9 tho, ya never know
when you'll need that extra cog.

Marty

Nigel: "But...it goes to 11."

11s rear derailleur? That is stupid.

Yuor current derailleur now can take like 15 geears or more. Just back out the adjusting screw and see how it goes in your spokes.

The spacing itself is in the shifter. That is the place. Will Shimano make an 11s shifter? No.

Seems pro teams for 2003 will use the new D/A 10s and sometime around October customers will get to buy it very limited. Will come out for sure on 2004.

Originally posted by Xavier
11s rear derailleur? That is stupid.



The spacing itself is in the shifter. That is the place. Will Shimano make an 11s shifter? No.

They also need to make an apropriately spaced 11 cog cassette or the shifter is moot....EH?

Halfmoon shaped chain? It cannot be unless somehow the derailleur is modified. Anyway, if they keep coming up with so many speeds, when will they ever stop? Don't tell me we are getting a 100 rear gears and the chain is only as wide as a strand of hair.

Its in the current Velonews, in the article that
talks about Sports Illustrated blowing Shimano's
cover with their picture of Lance on the cover
(new levers on STI ).
I believe that there is also something about
it on CAMPY ONLY (http://www.campyonly.com)
in the rumors section.

Marty

At some point they will probably do away with cassettes all together and go with internally geared hubs. Then they can add as many gears as their engineers can figure out how to cram in there.

cycletourist, I think that internally geared hubs are going to be a while before they are mainstream. True, rolhoff has a 16 speed hub, but I heard that it is a bit fragile. If you go over a large pothole, it can seriously scamble the internal gears.

I'm betting that I'll be a while, say 5-10 years before shimano or campy offers a racing internal hub. I think that they are too sidetracked by this stupid idea of electronic shifting to focus on internal geared hubs.

lotek, where is it exactly in Velonews? Is it the magazine or the website? Call me lousy but I can't find it anywhere in the website.

Oxologic,

Nope, not gonna call you Lousy (or whatever ya said)
it was in the magazine not on the website. I searched the
web and couldn't find it. I do think somewhere on
Cycling News (http://www.cyclingnews.com)
had a similiar story.

Marty

I think some of you guys are missing the point when you say "ooh well whats the point of having 11/12/14 speeds when we can't already use the ones we have...

It is true that shimano patented a 14 speed cassette, and ive heard rumors that the point of this isn't just to have more gears...but to instead make a wider range and eliminate one of the front chainrings. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. No more dropped chains, all the gears useable...man, just think about the applications for cross bikes :cool:

and what is up with electronic campy?! man, talk about ********.... u think they woulda learned their lesson after mavic tried it and it didnt work in the rain. Im gonna laugh when johan loses paris roubaix after his derailleur shorts out!:rolleyes:

men and women for that matter, are not satisfied with what they have, they want to have the best of everything, that is what you call?????????, I don't know what do they call that?????

i just bought a new bike with dura ace 9 speed group set. every gear changes perfect apart from the small gear on the back and the small gear on the front. when i am in that gear (9th) i can hear the chain just starting to rub on the front derailler even if i nudge the front derailler over a touch. i dont know how they will get it running smoothly with a 11 speed.

slick1:D

Originally posted by HøllenHund

and what is up with electronic campy?! man, talk about ********.... u think they woulda learned their lesson after mavic tried it and it didnt work in the rain. Im gonna laugh when johan loses paris roubaix after his derailleur shorts out!:rolleyes:
You can best believe that campy is going to do it
right, not a half a$$ed attempt like Mavic
(and truth be told the last gen mektronic wasn't so bad).
Campy is testing in adverse conditions now
(snow, rain, excess heat).

Marty

[i]
...Seems pro teams for 2003 will use the new D/A 10s and sometime around October customers will get to buy it very limited. Will come out for sure on 2004. [/B]

:eek: Shimano has a Dura Ace 10 spd? That would be great!! That would mean when it's available to the public, I might be able to scarf up on a cheaper 9 spd Dura Ace groupo!! WHOO HOO!! :beer: :D :) :p

I do not know if it is true or not but I read that LA's bike already has 11 speed so if anyone can stay on his wheel long enough start counting.

dws5b - I saw an article in velonews.com that talked about the hig-tech stuff on the Tour De France bikes - they showcased Lances. They did show the cassette on his mountain stage bike - still 9-speed, but...made out of aluminum. They stated the gears only lasted one day, but that's all Lance needed.

You will need quicktime, but a lot of interesting stuff

1) here is the cassette - no mention of number of gears although they talk about an ever increasing number of gears - http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=06497314&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D5%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3Dptxt%2526s1%3Dshimano%2526OS%3Dshiman o%2526RS%3Dshimano&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=219D71AAF1E9

2) Shimano has designed a bicycle -
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=D0466055&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D20%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3Dptxt%2526s1%3Dshimano%2526OS%3Dshima no%2526RS%3Dshimano&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=DC2EDF2868A5

and

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=D0465751&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D25%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3Dptxt%2526s1%3Dshimano%2526OS%3Dshima no%2526RS%3Dshimano&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=C481BA634D46

3) A bicycle carrier
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=06460708&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D46%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3Dptxt%2526s1%3Dshimano%2526OS%3Dshima no%2526RS%3Dshimano&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=488447AA5041

All in all over 2200 patents!

If you search for - shimano AND bicycle AND gears
You still get almost 250, see if you can find where they have patented the 11 speed.

Thanks for the links knifun. The LA site is talking about the SI issue and there is defidently a diference in the shifters which would suggest something different with the cassette. Also there is reason to beleive that there has been changes to the crankset, there are visual differences in the picture.

Here is the article. (http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/03shim)



That SI cover, and Those Funky Shift Levers...
- by Will Swetnam

1/2/03 ~ Well, with all the buzz over the pics in and on the SI Sportsman of the Year 2002 issue, we figured we had to check in with our sources at Shimano to see what was up. The rumor mills have been spewing everything from 10 speed to 13 speed cassettes on the rear - heck, we've even heard discussion about electronic shifting and two-piece cranks.

Yes, the photos clearly show a different shift lever, and perhaps a different crankset, but what is reality and what is smoke and mirrors? We all know how car makers are constantly putting new vehicles on the road with camouflage body panels, masking wraps, and line dispersing paint schemes -- could this be in the same vein?

We got in touch with a contact at Shimano, and the answer was somewhat expected: "We can't say yes or no [to the images being the new DA or not.] Obviously Lance is always testing something for us; think about the [SPD-SL] pedals." When asked if Shimano had a hand in the placement of the images, the first reply was a laugh... "How could we? We didn't even know the shoot was taking place, or that he had won the award till everyone else did... They [SI] just showed up at Lance's, he grabbed a bike, and it just went from there."

Whatever was in the pics sure has piqued our curiosity, and apparently yours, too... more to come and we'll keep you posted as best we can!

"- I do not know if it is true or not but I read that LA's bike already has 11 speed so if anyone can stay on his wheel long enough start counting."


I don't think the working prototype on lance's bike is an 11 speed, but rather a 10 speed group. A couple other postie climbers have it too, but I doubt the whole peloton will be riding anything except the standard 9 speed kit until 2004. The new kit will have an undetermined number of gears (we can speculate all we want lol) and ill bet the new DA cranks are gonna look a lot like the new XTR ones. I heard the proto group was a 10 spd from Frankie Andreu so its probably true, but theres rumors everywhere :fun:

Btw when i say campy electronic sounds stupid its not cuz i dont like campy i just think electro derailleurs are a bad idea.:rolleyes: even the guys on the campyonly site voted %51 that they would never buy an electro group, even from campy:roflmao: go figure.