Classic & Vintage - Vintage commuter/tourer ideas

I've decided to start seriously looking for a frame (again, this will be #3... yes, I'm hopeless just like the rest of you). I've got just about everything I need to build up a commuting rig - except for the frame. Need some suggestions on what makes/models to keep an eye out for. If anyone's dropped by the 'for trade' thread recently you've already seen what I'm after:

56-58cm, decent Cro-Mo frame/fork. Must have rack/fender mounts and ample tire clearance for 28mm or wider tires (in addition to fenders). And must use 700c wheels. I've seen a number of Treks and a couple Schwinn's in the past that would work fairly well, but I have a pair of 700c 36spoke wheels that I will be using. Braze-ons on the downtube highly desired as well.

The 531-frame Raleigh Super Course and Gran Sport models are ideal commuter/tourers, if you want to build a singlespeed, a fixie, or an internal-geared machine, for these models have plain stamped rear dropouts without derailer hangers. You can get a nice Super Course frame pretty cheap as well - and some of them have Nervex lugs to boot.

If a derailer-geared machine is what you have in mind, look no farther then the Nottingham-made, all-black Raleigh Competitions.

Unfortunately, every single one of these Raleighs require clamp-on cable stops. You can always use Campagnolo stops, of course...

-Kurt

Thanks for the suggestions, biased to a certain brand as they may be. ;) :p But you are right, all three would make fine rides.

I've used a Raleigh Sports 3 speed as a commuter for some time. It's been the most reliable bike I've ever owned. And you can shift gears while stopped at lights!

I'm working on a lesser Raleigh, a Grand Prix, for my wet weather commuter.

Its got lots of room for fenders. As a bonus, it came with a delightfully smooth loose-balled bottom bracket. I like being able to repack after a good soaking (really, I hate taking my good sealed Campy BB's out in bad weather)

These seat stays practically beg to stuff a fender between them:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/granprix3.JPG

i bought an austro daimler 531 frame and forks off ebay. it's now running 700x32s with mafac centerpulls and is a really sweet bike for just about anything. for year round commuting fixed is good and an old raleigh grand prix makes for a real pleasant workhorse. there's so many that will work.

Given the frame size you mention, I'm going to guess that your foot size is around size 10 or less. In this case, you would be able to use a bike with 43cm chainstays with little risk of heel strike. This is good news as it means pretty much any Sport Touring frame from back in the day will work for you. Big footed folks like me need more rooom back there.

Personally, I would prefer to stick to Japanese/US/English bikes as they are easier to find part for. Italian and French frames often pose problems due to odd sized fittings. Steer clear unless you are passionate about, say, old Peugots. Brands I would look for: Univega, Fuji, Trek, Nishiki, Centurian, Schwinn (japanese made ones), Bridgestone, Raliegh. I've got a spread sheet with some frame specs of some of the older bikes (mostly Treks) here:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bikes/bikes.html


I'm also a big fan of low trail bikes as I think they deal with bumps better. The classic old-school Sport Touring design used 73 degree parallel angles with 5.5 cm of fork rake. You can often eyeball this just by looking at the sweep of the fork.

Regarding your desire for 700c wheels, remember they weren't that popular back in the day. Most bikes were set up for 27" wheels and some convert down to 700c better than others. In general, I would avoid trying to convert any 27" bike with cantilevers to 700c. The abillity to do this will depend on the placement of the bosses. There can still be problems with caliper brake frames depending on where the boss is. In general, you are looking for a bike in which the brake pads are near the center of the adjustment range for a normal long reach brake (47 - 57 mm) when set with 27" wheels. This will generally allow you to move to 700c wheels by moving the pads down to the bottom of the 57mm range. Old Treks have a good reputation in this manner.

BTW, I'm a big fan of Weinmann/DiaCompe center pulls for this sort of application.

How about eBay item # 724090499? I'd bid on it myself if it was smaller.

I'm going to buck the trend and state the I would be reluctant to use my Super Course as a tourer. The reason for this is tire clearance in the rear. Perhaps the geometry on the pre 1977 models is a little bit different, but I would want wider tires on a tourer than what my 1978 allows. I run with Bluemels TDF shorties with the original 1-1/8" 700c tires, and there's precious little clearance there now.

edit <I'd pick an International over a Competition, due to the more relaxed geometry.>

I would give it a nod as a commuter though - as long as the roads you're riding on won't abuse the skinny tires.

My suggestions? How about a U-08? They came with larger tires, all the necessary mounting points, and if you pick one from late '70's onward, English threading. Also, a Miyata 21x, 61x or 1000, just about any Nishiki, or Panasonic that came with wider tires and mounting points would make a decent choice. U-08's and Nishikis can be had quite easily and relatively inexpensively.

Koga Miyata makes some awesome touring/commuting type bikes.
check marktplaats they seem to be relatively cheap.

marty

Koga Miyata makes some awesome touring/commuting type bikes.
check marktplaats they seem to be relatively cheap.

marty

Great place, but overseas shipping is getting pricey.

Do you want a fancy tourer or a theft-resistant beater/commuter? I think the ubiquitous Peugeot UO-8 is unbeatable for the latter application, but I may be biased. :) If you want something a bit more upscale, with a CrMo or MnMo main triangle, consider a Peugeot PR-10/PKN-10. Even my 1980 PKN-10E can take 700Cx28 tires, and it does have eyelets and a stiff enough frame to handle a load. (The Capos have eyelets and ample mudguard clearance, but these long wheelbased frames are too soft and whippy for loaded touring. When I was a UCLA grad student, riding down a hill with a Pletscher rack full of textbooks was always a bit too thrilling.)

i bought an austro daimler 531 frame and forks off ebay. it's now running 700x32s with mafac centerpulls and is a really sweet bike for just about anything. for year round commuting fixed is good and an old raleigh grand prix makes for a real pleasant workhorse. there's so many that will work.

Good suggestion. There is nothing like a good ol' relaxed-geometry "10-speed" road bike, rather than a twitchy super-stiff modern racing machine with super-tight geometry. Besides, Austrian bikes are cool. :)

Koga Miyata makes some awesome touring/commuting type bikes.
check marktplaats they seem to be relatively cheap.

marty

+1 on the Koga Miyatas. I've got a friend living in Switzerland who was thinking about a commuter/tourer, so I researched some of the brands he might find over there. When I saw the Koga Miyata website, I loved their bikes!......Unfortunately, for the new ones at least, my friend decided they were a little out of his price range-

Here's a pic of my commuting bike:

http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Basket.jpg

It's a '71 Raleigh Competition (531 throughout) with 27" wheels (though it came to me with 700c), Bluemels Popular mudguards, and, yes, a front basket mounted on a Bor Yueh front rack. The rear wheel is built with an alloy Sturmer Archer AW hub. Call it a concept bike.

Neal

Thanks for the suggestions, biased to a certain brand as they may be. ;) :p But you are right, all three would make fine rides.

I'll probably show the same amount of bias (based on riding experience, of course), but I've got to agree with Kurt - for what you want to do, especially if you're on a budget, you can't go wrong with a Nottingham or Carlton made Raleigh. Pick your model depending on what you want the frame materials to be, and don't be too quick to turn your nose up at a plain old "steel pipe" model. Sprints, Records, Gran Sports and Gran Prixs were really nice bikes for what they cost.

Big thing going for the marque is the overall quality: While Raleigh may never have turn out a bike quite the fashionable equal of some of those Italian marques where the owners feel they have to ride with their nose in the air as part of the ownership experience, Raleigh certainly never turned out a bad bike in the Nottingham days. I'll happily grab any inexpensive Raleigh frame in good condition, just to put away in the closet for possible future use.

My long distance ride is a '64 Gran Sport, yes it's just plain old steel with the Raleigh threaded bottom bracket. Other than the rattle-can paintjob, it's essentially a stock bike period upgraded like I would have done back in, say, 1969 on a moderate budget: Campy Record hubs with tubular rims, Blumel fenders, rear rack, stock cottered crank, stock Gran Sport drivetrain, and the GB brakes (kinda weedy) replaced with Weinmann centerpull front/sidepull rear (little matter of that rear rack). I knock off 75 mile days with two full panniers and a handlebar bag just about every Sunday, and find it a more enjoyable bike than the '03 Fuji Finest, virtually all 9-speed Ultegra modern that I finished shortly afterwards.

Not only does it ride nice, but it's got that gorgeous vintage 50's/early 60's look to it, like almost all English road bikes appeared before the 10-speed craze doomed mudguards.

Syke
Deranged Few M/C

Based on the replies above, I'll add this information:

I'm 6'0", with overly long legs (34" inseam) and wear a 11.5-12 shoe. So, longer chainstays probably a good idea! Primarly I'll only be running a rack trunk for commutes, with full panniers down the road for longer travels.

Thanks to the above for the warning on the canti-levers & 27" to 700c conversion. I'm tempted to go canti/V-brake route regardless and build a set of 27" wheels if needs be though. We'll see.

Currently, I'm looking at the following two frames:

Schwinn Passage:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7240212383&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Japanese made Chimayo Backroads
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7240904994&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

The schwinn states 27", while the Chimayo claims to be for 700c wheels. Both frames will fit me well so not sure which to lean towards. Or just hold off till I'm back in town to start bidding on frames. In Michigan right now, getting married on Saturday and will not be getting back to Texas for a couple more weeks. But both frames are oh so tempting!

I think most of the imported boom bikes of the 70's came with generous clearances and dropout eyelets especially from England, France and Japan. The bikes were sold in U.S. stores with fenders as an add-on and the vast majority of buyers never thought to get them. Maybe it was because bikes were viewed as a recreational thing done only in good weather. In Europe and Japan cyclists didn't let a little rain slow them down. By the 80's the clearances started to shrink and eyelets disappear until the situation we have today where fenders, racks, decent size tires are just not possible on most road bikes.

A European writer riding on TOSRV in the seventies thought it curious that so many people would ride in the rain without fenders. In thirty years we haven't learned anything, in two days 3000 riders will be riding TOSRV in the rain and 95% will be fenderless.

I think most of the imported boom bikes of the 70's came with generous clearances and dropout eyelets especially from England, France and Japan. ... Don't forget Italy.

I don't think that running 700c wheels on that Schwinn would be a problem. Most cantis and v brakes have lots of room for adjustment. It would just give you more room for fat touring tires and fenders.

Both the Chimayo and the Schwinn look like serious touring bikes to me, but I don't see front rack mounts on the Schwinn.

I've bought lots of stuff from The Sultan. Never a problem.

Dirtdrop - thanks for weighing in. Indeed, both are full on touring rigs and probably more "touring" than I really need, but the clearance for bigger tires and fenders is certainly what I want. Being able to use cantis or v-brakes for panic stops in traffic will be very welcomed as well.

Don't forget Italy.


LOL! We all show our cycling affections here.

If I could just find an Italian bike (please -please- please) I'm sure I'd be echoing your request.

Based on the replies above, I'll add this information:

I'm 6'0", with overly long legs (34" inseam) and wear a 11.5-12 shoe. So, longer chainstays probably a good idea! Primarly I'll only be running a rack trunk for commutes, with full panniers down the road for longer travels.

Thanks to the above for the warning on the canti-levers & 27" to 700c conversion. I'm tempted to go canti/V-brake route regardless and build a set of 27" wheels if needs be though. We'll see.

Currently, I'm looking at the following two frames:

Schwinn Passage:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7240212383&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Japanese made Chimayo Backroads
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7240904994&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

The schwinn states 27", while the Chimayo claims to be for 700c wheels. Both frames will fit me well so not sure which to lean towards. Or just hold off till I'm back in town to start bidding on frames. In Michigan right now, getting married on Saturday and will not be getting back to Texas for a couple more weeks. But both frames are oh so tempting!


I was gonna bid on the Chimayo,,,,but you saw it first and don't want to drive the bid up on a forum user --JJ

I'm 9/10ths done on a Miyata Triplecross set up with drops and v-brakes. 700x32 and lots of room for fenders and hard points for racks. Something like that would fit the bill nicely.
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Cuda,
I'm in the middle of rebuilding a 1985 Trek 520 for cummuting. You did great job on your other bikes and I'll be eagerly watching this project. Keep us informed on the progress.

Do you want a fancy tourer or a theft-resistant beater/commuter? I think the ubiquitous Peugeot UO-8 is unbeatable for the latter application, but I may be biased. :) If you want something a bit more upscale, with a CrMo or MnMo main triangle, consider a Peugeot PR-10/PKN-10.

While the Peugeot machines may be nice riders, nearly every upgrade save for the wheels will be a nightmare. Of course, with the UO-8, you have the benifit of clamp-on D-T shifter levers, which should save some hassle at least.

-Kurt

P.S.: The A-D 531 frame is a good suggestion. They seem to be built a bit heavier then most 531 frames, and they aren't particularly an eye-catcher either.

I've decided to start seriously looking for a frame (again, this will be #3... yes, I'm hopeless just like the rest of you). I've got just about everything I need to build up a commuting rig - except for the frame. Need some suggestions on what makes/models to keep an eye out for. If anyone's dropped by the 'for trade' thread recently you've already seen what I'm after:

56-58cm, decent Cro-Mo frame/fork. Must have rack/fender mounts and ample tire clearance for 28mm or wider tires (in addition to fenders). And must use 700c wheels. I've seen a number of Treks and a couple Schwinn's in the past that would work fairly well, but I have a pair of 700c 36spoke wheels that I will be using. Braze-ons on the downtube highly desired as well.

Jon, this is blasphemy of course, but have you considered the Nashbar Touring Frame: http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=130&subcategory=1176&brand=&sku=11723&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

On sale for only 180 USD, has all the things you need of course. Looks pretty good, with mudguards and Brooks saddle!
But, yes, it's made of welded aluminum, a tin can. That wouldn't stop me if I was looking for a touring frame!

Jon, this is blasphemy of course, but have you considered the Nashbar Touring Frame: http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=130&subcategory=1176&brand=&sku=11723&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

On sale for only 180 USD, has all the things you need of course. Looks pretty good, with mudguards and Brooks saddle!
But, yes, it's made of welded aluminum, a tin can. That wouldn't stop me if I was looking for a touring frame!

That isn't basphemy, but for me the fun and challenge of restoring an older bike into a functional commuter was very satisfying.

Jon, this is blasphemy of course, but have you considered the Nashbar Touring Frame: http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=130&subcategory=1176&brand=&sku=11723&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=
... Looks pretty good, with mudguards and Brooks saddle! But, yes, it's made of welded aluminum, a tin can. That wouldn't stop me if I was looking for a touring frame! Yes, and my LBS is pushing a Trek touring bike pretty hard. I still prefer old lugged steel, for durability, ride quality, and appearance. I still haven't adjusted to how ugly TIG welds look.

Yes, and my LBS is pushing a Trek touring bike pretty hard. I still prefer old lugged steel, for durability, ride quality, and appearance. I still haven't adjusted to how ugly TIG welds look.

Well, I just think that Nashbar tin can is a charming, reasonably priced and reliable possibility for Jon! Might cater for all his needs in one go. Leaves time for actually riding it. I might be influenced by the fact that I just finished buyilding up a Scandium bike, and really need time to ride it, and find out how it rides. I've been riding steel for 30 yeras now, (and titanium for the past 2 years) so I might be in for a surprise.

Anyway, if that is your Capo, that's a very nice bike you've got there. Mix of old and new components? 28 spoke wheels? If Jon can go for something like that, I'm all for it!

Well, I just think that Nashbar tin can is a charming, reasonably priced and reliable possibility for Jon! Might cater for all his needs in one go. Leaves time for actually riding it. I might be influenced by the fact that I just finished buyilding up a Scandium bike, and really need time to ride it, and find out how it rides.

If you search the threads you'll find one from a gent who relates on how he built up a Nashbar tourer frame. He was quite happy with the result.
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Cuda,
I'm in the middle of rebuilding a 1985 Trek 520 for cummuting. You did great job on your other bikes and I'll be eagerly watching this project. Keep us informed on the progress.

Hey Mariner,

You going to post a picture of your Trek? I'm curious to see it completed. :)

Thanks for all the replies, and of course keep them coming. The Nashbar had crossed my mind, but going to see if I can't snag something lugged and steel. I passed on both frames that I had been watching over the weekend. Both climbed higher than I could afford to drop at the moment (in the middle of a wedding and off work for 2 weeks). In a few week's time when things settle down a bit I'll refocus my search for a frame. The Acera rear derailluer was here when I got home from Michigan. Should have more than enough chain take-up to handle the triple and cassette I plan on using. For the light town duty it'll see the cheap Shimano unit should work fine.

I'll keep this thread updated as my search continues...

Cuda;

In the event you are interested (& might be a tad too large), (PM me if so) I have Mondia that I picked up a few years back but never did anything with. I have been considering selling it as I have too many bikes.

I did an cross an unsupported x-county ride years back on my 76 Mondia (Campy). Rode like a dreamm stable & reliable. Never once hit the panniers.

Approx. details of the bike are: Mid 70's Super Mondia Special (I suspect about 75). Reynolds 531 DB in about the 61cm size, approx. 87 cm stand over, 44 to 45 cm chain stays. It has the mounts, center pull bracket, & should be able to handle the 28 wide tires without problem. It looks to be original condition w/ all Super be components (which I will be happy to keep).

Bob

... Anyway, if that is your Capo, that's a very nice bike you've got there. Mix of old and new components? 28 spoke wheels? If Jon can go for something like that, I'm all for it!

Yes, that's my 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo, with its reasonably historically accurate CyclArt repaint and updated components: Campagnolo 980 rear derailleur and Record front; Campagnolo Veloce crankset (later replaced by a 1970s Nervar Star because of breakage); Ofmega 36-hole hubs and Nisi clincher rims from my 1981 Bianchi; 1972 Brooks Pro saddle. I have posted other pictures in Classic & Vintage. I like the way the two-tone paint job shows off the ornate headlugs and recalls the Austrian flag (simply three broad horizontal stripes, red-white-red). The red is deeper, more a metallic burgundy than the original candy apple, but the result is so stunning that even people who aren't into classic bikes notice it.

For contrast, I am keeping the 1960 Capo Sieger as original as possible, with 36-hole high-flange Campagnolo Record hubs, Gran Sport derailleurs, Agrati cottered steel cranks, and adjustable-reach Ambrosio stem.

Think I've decided on the basis of my new commuter - what I'm guessing to be a mid 80's era Schwinn Passage. The only strike against it is that it's currently running 27" wheels. Though with a set of V-brakes I should be able to convert it to 700c without problems. On the plus side: it's local! no shipping! it's a Schwinn! (Panasonic Made, Columbus Tenax tubing), lots of braze ons for bottles, fenders, rack, etc. And... it's BLUE! hahahahhaha! Pics soon. Hope to pick it up early this week. - Jon

Think I've decided on the basis of my new commuter - what I'm guessing to be a mid 80's era Schwinn Passage. The only strike against it is that it's currently running 27" wheels. Though with a set of V-brakes I should be able to convert it to 700c without problems. On the plus side: it's local! no shipping! it's a Schwinn! (Panasonic Made, Columbus Tenax tubing), lots of braze ons for bottles, fenders, rack, etc. And... it's BLUE! hahahahhaha! Pics soon. Hope to pick it up early this week. - Jon

That sounds like a very good choice for what you're wanting to do with it. I saw the Passage frame/fork you were considering earlier in the thread, that looks like a very nice, genuine touring frame. I don't have any first-hand experience with the Schwinn Passage, I've always thought of the Voyageur as the real-deal Schwinn tourer, but maybe the Passage was built from the same frame? Anyway, great choice- :)

edit: it might be Bridgestone-built also, as Scooper confirmed recently that both Panasonic and Bridgestone supplied Japanese-built bikes to Schwinn.

The Passage appears to be the replacement for the Voyageur in the Schwinn line. I'm picking it up in about an hour and a half. My only two worries on this frame is the ability to convert to 700c (from what little I have found on google it sounds like it's possible w/ V-brakes. I'm either going to use a pair of XTR's I have currently if I can get them cleaned up or perhaps a pair of AVIDs. The other is that I'm planning on putting Sora Brifters on the bike and that I may have problems mounting the cable stops to the existing shift bosses. Being a Panasonic built frame though, I have hopes this won't be a problem. I'll know shortly. Shift Boss problem or not I should be able to mount the cable stops for the shifters.

I am going to be building my own lighting system with dual 20W lights up front. I've decided on most of the parts I need for this setup, but need to scrounge up a front reflector mount bracket for a threaded headset. Finding a new one at a LBS or even online has been fruitless so far.

oh, and how did I know Well Biked would be approving of my choice? ;)

The Brifters will be a problem with the v-brakes (different cable pull) unless you use a "travel agent" to compensate. I haven't used this personally, but have heard it works fine. That's interesting about the Passage being the replacement for the Voyageur, I've seen Voyageurs as late as early nineties models. Maybe they brought the Voyageur back later, who knows. Check out my edit above regarding a possible Bridgestone product, I'd think of all the Japanese-made Schwinns, something like the Passage you describe would be as likely as any to be a Schwinn-badged Bridgestone.

Well Biked - I bought the Passage. I'll go check the Serial Number. You're probably right about the Voyageur also being out there through the 80's, as I do think I saw a some supposidly mid-80's models on ebay. Early morning brain lapse I suppose.

If it is a bridgestone, then I suppose the $150 I spent on it was well worth it. The frame is in fantasic shape. What I thought were a few scratches, appear to be just some rubs of white paint that should come off with a little elbow grease. Quite the mix of parts on it. Shimano Light Action rear, Suntour front derailleur, shifters are Sache, San Marco saddle, DiaCompe for the brakes and levers. SR Stem and bars. Haven't looked at the wheels yet as they are intended to be replaced.

I do know about the need to use travel agents for the V-Brakes. I first have to make sure that the V-brakes will mount up (shouldn't be a reason not to) and then work from there. I'll post some photos soon.

sort of a question and comment:

it is my understanding that the type of cantis used in the 80's on touring bikes had the posts mounted closer to the rim which means modern cantilevers are more difficult to adjust and the pads will "dive" in to the rim, I presume this is also a problem with V-brakes somehow... I am guessing the posts are mounted slighly different for V as opposed to cantis. Is this true? i once tried to put V-brakes on an MTB that originally sported Cantis with unsatisfactory results.

cyclotoine, you pose a very good quesiton. One that I had not thought of previously. I'm going to start a new thread now that I've offically aquired my commuter/touring bike. Hopefully I'll be able to work with the v-brakes. If not - I'll figure something out.

Hers' my "New Touring Commuter"
http://www.rswpartner.com/showimage.html?img=http://pictures.macrosysinc.net/rsw/951613/1746A.jpg
---JJ