Just riding home from the bike shop and was stopped at a heavily used, 5 way arterial traffic signal stop. 4 lanes from all 5 directions feed an interstate and a state highway into this intersection from both east and west; very long signals, 5 ways to play adding to confusion....
Today I see a NEW, destination and speed-differential specific, bike lane/box off one of the arterials, to a "left turn bikes only" lane. It was between a narrow, left turn only car lane, and a forward only lane. boxed off for about 75-100 feet from the intersection, down a streepish hill.
What a well thought out, innovative and well placed bike box/lane!
It provides preffered intersection space at a busy artertial, positioning bikes that will be turning left in the correct lane position for an open, unstriped left turn thru the intersection.
This destination-specific, left turn only lane provides safe, preferential travel space for bikes and cars to mix going into the intersection with less conflict between velo and petrol transit modes.
will get pictures tomorrow if anyone wants; yet another example of velotransit that is valuable, appropriate, and speed and destination specific in the greater Seattle area..
donnamb
05-09-06, 08:39 PM
Ooh, yes - let's see! Would you name the intersection?
Bekologist
05-09-06, 09:15 PM
50th, Stone and Greenlake ways.
Its not a completely improved intersection, but this left turn only lane off the downhill is pretty cool. It lets bikes to the front, and stacks them up at a long light. and lets them move into an open intersection from destination-appropriate positioning.
eliminates some of the disadvantages of bicycling a narrow left turn only lane (and a busy, clustersnuck intersection!) shared by both bikes and cars. an armchair is another vehicle entirely, and probably wouldn't fit in the velo-left lane.
ignominious
05-10-06, 06:56 AM
But surely making a consideration for the inherent vulnerability of cyclists at a busy and confusional junction with potential high speeds and a higher opportunity for driver miscommunication and inobservancy is the kind of segregationist thinking that will result in all cyclists dying in a particularly horrible and gruesome manner.
mozul
05-10-06, 10:49 AM
Here is a link to the intersection on Google Maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=stone+way,+seattle,+wa&ll=47.665084,-122.340311&spn=0.001655,0.003374&t=h&om=1
Which direction were you coming from?
noisebeam
05-10-06, 11:07 AM
Here is a link to the intersection on Google Maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=stone+way,+seattle,+wa&ll=47.665084,-122.340311&spn=0.001655,0.003374&t=h&om=1
Which direction were you coming from?
I see a left turn BL in the approach from the west. Those I do not like, they put one to the right of left turning drivers who all too often make a wide turn, which can squeeze a cyclist against the curb. We have a few of those here and I take the lane instead. There is one by my house where nearly 100% the left turning vehicles make a wide turn into the BL on the x-street.
Also, where does this left turn BL lead? Which lane do motorist expect cyclist to end up in on x-street? How many drivers will make the left turn into the outside of the two lanes vs. the inside like they should?
Perhaps this has an advanced signal for bicycles to make the turn safer?
Al
sbhikes
05-10-06, 11:21 AM
That's a good idea. I would appreciate something like that at some of my much less nasty intersections if only so that I can be sure to get up to the front and therefore get through the light before it turns red.
I often find myself so far back behind so many cars that by the time I hit the intersection the speed differential is too wide between me and what the cars can do. The worst is when I miss the light and the people behind me also missed the light because of me. What normally happens though is I don't miss the light but it turns red before I finish my turn. I'd prefer to not have to worry about stuff like that and just get up to the front and go.
Lately I keep ending up at my left turn spot so far back it's hopeless I'll get through. I've just given up on the street and instead take the sidewalk and push the button. At least the crosswalk guy lasts long enough for me to get through. :(
Do they put sensors in the left turn lane? Does it make the light last longer than if you were using the lane? That's what I'd like to see. I can trigger this one left turn but the light doesn't last long enough for me to make it through if I'm the only one. It's like one second long. At least with a bike lane they'd think about those sorts of considerations, they being the engineers.
noisebeam
05-10-06, 11:29 AM
That's a good idea. I would appreciate something like that at some of my much less nasty intersections if only so that I can be sure to get up to the front and therefore get through the light before it turns red.
Why not wait your turn?
EFFICIENCY AND SPEED ARE NOT THE ONLY MEASURE OF VALUE in cycling. Any reasonable person would understand this.
Al
sbhikes
05-10-06, 11:35 AM
Oh for crying out loud.
noisebeam
05-10-06, 11:37 AM
Oh for crying out loud.
Hey, I'm just playing fun. To be clear I respect and value your inputs and perspectives. Nothing personal.
Al
chephy
05-10-06, 11:47 AM
Do they put sensors in the left turn lane? Does it make the light last longer than if you were using the lane? That's what I'd like to see. I can trigger this one left turn but the light doesn't last long enough for me to make it through if I'm the only one. It's like one second long. Wow, this is really weird. However my experience is that if you start a maneuver when the light directs you to do so and then the signal changes, other vehicles will wait for you to finish what you're doing before proceeding. In fact I thought there was a "cushion" of time between when the light turns red for you and when it turns green for the cross traffic. But even if the cushion isn't there I find that people wait quite patiently. Perhaps this varies with the area.
noisebeam
05-10-06, 11:54 AM
Wow, this is really weird. However my experience is that if you start a maneuver when the light directs you to do so and then the signal changes, other vehicles will wait for you to finish what you're doing before proceeding. In fact I thought there was a "cushion" of time between when the light turns red for you and when it turns green for the cross traffic. But even if the cushion isn't there I find that people wait quite patiently. Perhaps this varies with the area.
Exactly. The light does not need to remain green while one complete a turn (or completes passage thru an intersection)
Also, busses, trucks other slow moving vehicles are certainly slower making left turns than relaxed cyclists, how to they do it with 1s of green?
Al
sbhikes
05-10-06, 12:13 PM
No, the light does not need to remain green and yes, people do wait patiently most of the time. I would simply like to have the same length of time allotted to me to make my turn as I do when I'm encased in 3000lbs of metal. Why should a car get a few seconds more than me? Shouldn't I get a few seconds more than a car?
Most of the time means that there are some people at this intersection I'm thinking of who see the green light and they start to go even though I'm still completing the turn because they never bothered to check if the intersection was clear. These people are usually making right turns into the street where I'm headed.
Not all places have a cushion of time between lights.
joejack951
05-10-06, 06:08 PM
I personally don't see the point. That left turn lane is so short that I doubt you couldn't make it through the light even if you started from the back on a bike. If you were further back then where the left turn lane starts it looks like a bike could still fit down the left side of the road to bypass some traffic but once you reached the turn lane there's really no point in going any further. Doing so, as Al pointed out, puts you on the outside of left turners which is far from ideal.
This is an intersection where I sometimes need to make a left turn (heading west) after leaving work (most of the time because of road closures). If you look at the top right corner, you can see where the left turn lane starts. That lane will get completely full of cars during rush hour, sometimes backing up into the two straight lanes. If I encounter this, I'll simply split the lanes (left and turn lane) as with the heavy traffic, neither lane is moving fast. When I get to within a few cars of the front, I move into the turn lane and someone has always left enough room for me to fit the line. I make the left turn and move into the right lane and let the cars dance around me. Not exactly for the novice but then neither is an intersection like this one with two, 4 lane, 50mph roads coming together.
Again, I think that the bike lane as Bek has shown, or a bike lane at the intersection I've shown, would be a bad idea. A false sense of security while traveling on the outside of left turning vehicles is not a good thing.
Bekologist
05-11-06, 11:10 PM
the intersection is completely open; once a bike enters the intersection they are free to mix fully using ROW assesments, speed and vehicle appropriate positioning......if there are no cars, or a bicyclist approaches the light at speed on a green signal, the bicyclist can mix prior to the intersection.
leading into to the intersection, the bike lane allows preferential travel in the presence of backed up traffic approaching the light- this is a busy light at commute hours, cars back up past one full signal here often in all directions.
any preferred lane that advances a bicyclist appropriately to an intersection in the correct destination position, and in either a wide lane or a veloaccomodated intersection, provides more expedient transit for the bicyclist.
i think some of you are just complaining in rote about worthwhile, velotransit-accomodated roadways.
how many cars back up at a left turn lane before you start to filter to the front? 3 cars? 10 cars? 50? Never? What if the backup is a half mile long??
Would you all use roadway space to your advantage (splitting lanes, wide lane sharing or preferred velotransit) to advance past a half mile clogged lane of left turning traffic?
noisebeam
05-12-06, 10:08 AM
the intersection is completely open; once a bike enters the intersection they are free to mix fully using ROW assesments, speed and vehicle appropriate positioning......if there are no cars, or a bicyclist approaches the light at speed on a green signal, the bicyclist can mix prior to the intersection.
leading into to the intersection, the bike lane allows preferential travel in the presence of backed up traffic approaching the light- this is a busy light at commute hours, cars back up past one full signal here often in all directions.
any preferred lane that advances a bicyclist appropriately to an intersection in the correct destination position, and in either a wide lane or a veloaccomodated intersection, provides more expedient transit for the bicyclist.
i think some of you are just complaining in rote about worthwhile, velotransit-accomodated roadways.
how many cars back up at a left turn lane before you start to filter to the front? 3 cars? 10 cars? 50? Never? What if the backup is a half mile long??
Would you all use roadway space to your advantage (splitting lanes, wide lane sharing or preferred velotransit) to advance past a half mile clogged lane of left turning traffic?
Thats a lot of words to that fails to explain the benefit of this BL that allows one at best a cyclist to advance four car lengths and puts them to outside of left turning cars who very well may turn wide into the cyclist path. I'd really like to know how a cyclist could "advance past a half mile clogged lane of left turning traffic" in this particular design.
I am not complaining, just providing the needed perspective that just because its a BL, that its not all good.
Al
Bekologist
05-12-06, 10:56 PM
Al, that was theoretical and not related to this specific intersection altogther....no left turn lane is a half mile long, silly! the street has velotransit on it well back of the intersection; aside from a little traffic mixing to move into the veloleft, the roadway does allow passing a long line of backed up traffic.
You know how that works, right? You lane split or use another lane, than squeeze your way thru a line of stopped traffic at an appropriate bumper gap using hand signals or insouciant ear waggles and alphadawg mind tricks to get cars to yield ROW...its a common bike movement thru congested lanes of traffic that you should be familiar familiar with, bumper splits.
how big of a backup of congested traffic does there need to be, before you split lanes, lane share, or ride to the front in a velotransit lane?
mrkott3r
05-14-06, 02:01 AM
Wow I wish my council/state did stuff like this.
Instead they build a roundabout on where one shouldnt be built annoying everyone and it makes life hard for truckies and bus drivers