Commuting - Public transportation in the suburbs ... useless

I am trying to get around without driving so to experiment, it is 3 am and i cannot fathom a way to get to work at 6:30 am combining bus and cycle, or bus alone. It is quite distressing the level of car dependency that I have reached due the particularities of the are where I live.

My carless dream is an impossible one in the Chester County area, but at least the 24 mile commute can be thinned out into 14 due those handy parking lots for "Park and Ride". I guess I will be redefining the "ride" part of the mission statement.

Anyhow ... is most of the suburban U.S. as crappy regarding public trans? How the really working poor manage to get around and get to work, any work, with a bus schedule this idiotic and unpractical.

Even in third world countries such as my country of origin, the city MANDATES that buses must be running all night long [0000hr to 0500hr] with a frequency NO LESS than 30 minutes. Some things are businesses and some others are PUBLIC SERVICE. The night service may not make enough money, but the volume that the bus companies down south move during the daytime compensates for the late nite loss.

When buses are running, people will start riding them, specially with the economic downturn that our economy is taking. With the working poor increasing in numbers, the public transit system has to be revised. It is all but obvious that more aggressive policies regarding use of public transportation are needed.

I understand that Septa is broke, but with such poor option to private car travel, who in their right mind would liberate him or herself from the slavery of the motor vehicle ownership?

Just food for thought...

Cliff notes:

Public trans sucks
More buses will be good
Around the clock service will be good.
People need to be educated so to choose to ride buses.
More poor people in the United States.
More buses needed.
Cars are expensive.

Sleepy time.

Live closer to work.
The current state of automotive dependency of the united states is interestingly ironic, being that it was initiated primarily by public transport. When the trolley and the bicycle were the only way to get around, long before cars were reliable or affordable enough to be of any use - transport companies built lines out of the cities and into the surrounding country so that suburbs could be built and bring more patrons to the trolley system - people moved out of the city, away from their work - they had to use the trolley to get to work - until of course they were eventually able to afford cars, which they could drive anywhere whenever they wanted, instead of having to rely on the limited and scheduled service of the streetcar.
With less riders, systems had to cut back their service for lack of money, meaning their service was even more limited, and people had to rely on autmobiles to get out of the suburbs even more than they ever had to previously, for those who held out on buying an automobile because they considered it frivolous - they now had a real need for one.
In case you were wondering why public transport sucks, and people are so dependant on automobiles, that's the short story.

The solution is simple, go back to the way things were before suburbs, streetcars, and automobiles. Live near where you work.

Busses in Cleveland run until about 11. Most are empty all the time.

It is kind of a catch 22. You need public transportation to enable people who need it to get to work. Yet it costs so much that the taxes are high and businesses go elsewhere.

Busses in Hartford and Most CT cities run up till midnight. We now have express services which utilize the HOV lanes from the suburbs to Hartford. But for some reason hartford lacks the Bike Racks like the other cities within the state.

Apparentley with the spike in gas prices, Busses and other transit supposedley saw a 15% increase in ridership nationwide. Perhaps this is a turning point.

Right now I am mulling over the option of getting a folder and taking it on the bus when I need to go to buisness meetings. They keep threatning to put in bike racks "next year" but I have yet to see it.

Live closer to work.
The current state of automotive dependency of the united states is interestingly ironic, being that it was initiated primarily by public transport. When the trolley and the bicycle were the only way to get around, long before cars were reliable or affordable enough to be of any use - transport companies built lines out of the cities and into the surrounding country so that suburbs could be built and bring more patrons to the trolley system - people moved out of the city, away from their work - they had to use the trolley to get to work - until of course they were eventually able to afford cars, which they could drive anywhere whenever they wanted, instead of having to rely on the limited and scheduled service of the streetcar.
With less riders, systems had to cut back their service for lack of money, meaning their service was even more limited, and people had to rely on autmobiles to get out of the suburbs even more than they ever had to previously, for those who held out on buying an automobile because they considered it frivolous - they now had a real need for one.

The solution is simple, go back to the way things were before suburbs, streetcars, and automobiles. Live near where you work.

i disagree. Urban sprawl actually began because of affordable housing through mass production of designs and materials in the fifties in the US. One guy pioneered it but I can't remember his name, maybe someone else will.

It's pretty much the same today, where developers build the **** out of an area with little to no infrastructure (former farmland) and then the residents demand faster transport alternatives which usually result in freeways/tollways.

I wish the solution was quite as simple as living near where you work but unfortunately most jobs are in central business districts where housing is too expensive for the common man.

Going back to the OP's arguments, yeah PT is crap. Here in Melbourne AUS we've privatized our PT system which isn't a profitable enterprise (and most likely never will be). Even with heavy government subsidy its still cheaper/faster/less hassle to drive.
Why bother?

Thats why bikes are great but still 48 miles round trip is a long long commute.

Living closer to work is a difficult concept.
First you need to fix our employment system to not layoff workers so damn quickly. What exactly is the point of buying a house close to work when you would be in the same situation should a layoff occur?
Even if you are layed off and search only around where you are living, you will have significantly reduced your choices for employment. Any specialized professional can attest to how difficult it can be to find work.

On topic:
PT is next to worthless. Even with our PT system (RTD) is ranked fairly high and still has tons of issues.

In NYC, public transportation runs 24 hours a day and is usually the first option with driving the second. It's too inconvenient to drive in traffic and have to pay $40/day for parking when a $4 round trip on the subway and bus is less expensive and usually puts you close to your destination. Even in the outer boroughs, parking is scarce and expensive so multiple bus trips are used to get around. People living outside NYC use Metro North, NJ Transit and the LIRR to get into the city and switch to the MTA from there or just walk. Most car traffic in NYC is commercial trucks making deliveries and taxis picking up and dropping off fares. For me, riding a bike is just a way to get some free exercise. If I couldn't ride, I'd take the subway, the bus or walk. There's no way I'd ever drive to work because there's no place to park. Make parking scarce or expensive and maybe people will use mass transit more.

I think it would take longer for me to take the bus to work (4km) than it would to walk. I'd have to transfer between busses at least twice, and with each trasfer comes an associated wait time. No thanks!!!

Moving is not an option YET, but I believe in moving closer to work is the best thing.

That is like a two year project for now; meanwhile, I will have to drive a little and ride a little.

Toronto is one of the best cities in North America for public transit. Almost up there with NYC (although the subway system is not nearly as extensive and that's a big drawback). To think of it, our suburbs probably don't fair so badly either compared with the rest of North America. My brother lives with my parents about 50 km from Toronto in a town called Milton, and he was able to commute to a college in Toronto and back by train/bus every day. Trains/buses are spaced about 1 hour apart which is not so bad, I guess. It takes longer than a car though and is quite expensive (~$6 US for a one-way trip; a bit cheaper if you buy a 10-trip pass). Unfortunately, my mother who works an evening shift in Toronto can't use PT to commute to work because the service stops around 10:30 p.m. and she gets off work at 11:30. Not to mention it would take her at least two and a half (and more likely three to three and a half) hours to get from her place of work home (using a combination of bus, subway and another bus...)

Living close to work is great if you can do it, but as many noted there are some problems with this. For one, if you have two or more working family members, they might work many dozens of miles apart, so you can't live close to all of their workplaces. Take my family for example: my father works close enough to home that he can walk to work, but my mother lives 50 km away from work. Live close to my mother's workplace: and now my father has to commute 50 km! Go for the middle ground - and neither of them lives close to work! Not to mention that there is my brother who attends university now... And did I mention that they aren't exactly millionaires, so can't afford a house in Toronto unless they go for some run-down seedy neighbourhoods? They can afford an apartment, but there are enough troubles with owning one around here that I can't blame them for not wanting it. They actually did own a condo in Toronto for a couple years there, but sold it because it was too much of a pain...

Living close to work is great if you can do it, but as many noted there are some problems with this. For one, if you have two or more working family members, they might work many dozens of miles apart, so you can't live close to all of their workplaces. Take my family for example: my father works close enough to home that he can walk to work, but my mother lives 50 km away from work. Live close to my mother's workplace: and now my father has to commute 50 km! Go for the middle ground - and neither of them lives close to work! Not to mention that there is my brother who attends university now... And did I mention that they aren't exactly millionaires, so can't afford a house in Toronto unless they go for some run-down seedy neighbourhoods? They can afford an apartment, but there are enough troubles with owning one around here that I can't blame them for not wanting it. They actually did own a condo in Toronto for a couple years there, but sold it because it was too much of a pain...

+1
The price difference between where I work and where I live is at least $100k, and that will get me in a run down dump in a high crime area. My wife however is somewhat near home, (used to be walking distance of the old house), but that also is a notoriuosly high crime area.
Weird thing is, its easier for me to use transit to work as I'm near the city center than it is for my wife to get around our own area. Of course, I'd rather ride.

Yes it's just as bad in any suburbs. Suburbia is cartopia, all distances are too far to walk, no significant amount of public transportation usually exists... and it's a catch-22, because an area built for cars is only ideal for cars. How many people, even here in the commuter forum, happily ride across a 9 lane (5 one way 4 the other) vs 11 lane (6 one way 5 the other) intersection? I have one of those between my house and the LBS. Oh and the speed limit is 35 mph one way 45 mph the other, with "normal" speed being 10 over the limit.

hubenio would changing your schedule help matters? It may be easier said than done, but if the bus could get you there for maybe an hour or so later start time, that may not be so bad. I live in a suburb of Spokane, WA. Luckily I also work in the same suburb. If I had to go downtown I do have the option of taking the bus. I don't think it runs until 6 in the morning or so, and then not again for a few hours during the evening rush hour. But it is an express so it can get you there in no time flat (it's roughly 15 miles to the downtown area). The good news is we're supposed to have a light rail system out here by 2014. Maybe later, but it's a step in the right direction

There isn't public transportation in the suburbs for several reasons. First, it doesn't really work well unless one of two conditions are met. Either you have population density like NYC, Chicago or DC OR the taxpayers are willing to heavily subsidize it. Here, riders fares pay for less than 20% of the operating costs of our bus system. The rest is bourne by City taxpayers and it isn't cheap. We also have very few people that actually use the bus and they ride around near empty a good part of the day. Sometimes it seems like it would be cheaper to provide point to point helicopter rides on demand. Those big old buses use a lot of gas.

Another reason is that it takes so darn long to get anywhere on a bus. I live less than 2 miles from downtown so that's not a huge issue for me, but if you live just a couple more miles north of me, it takes upwards of 30 minutes to get downtown because the buses crisscross through every neighborhood. Why would I put myself through that when I could drive and be there in 10 minutes max? In larger cities, the park and ride concept seems to work for suburbs just outside the city, but it isn't cost effective to go any further out.

They've been exploring building a 1 billion dollar light rail system here. Lots of public support, but very few people said they would actually use it. They can't get federal money because no matter which way they slice it, the projected ridership falls way below their thresholds.

If you want good public transportation, move to NY or DC. In the meantime, you can explore carpooling and riding your bike part of the way.

It takes too dman long because public isnt well designed. Its not well designed because we dont want to pay for it. We don't want to pay for it because nobody uses it. Nobody uses it because it takes too damn long to use public transit. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

The solution? Be a pioneer and start living densely....high crime area? Be proactive and start the gentrification process going...gays, hipsters and the artsy seem to be quite good at this. If you dont like the higher price for the same space, get used to the smaller space and deal. There has to be a trade off somewhere.

Huhenio...
I think I asked this before but you missed it...
What is you commute....from Chester Springs to Philly ??
Also....Septa is sooooooooo expensive !! I think it is the
most expensive in the country tight now if I am not mistaken.
Gas is still cheaper than riding public trans in Philly I believe :eek:

The solution? Be a pioneer and start living densely....high crime area? Be proactive and start the gentrification process going...gays, hipsters and the artsy seem to be quite good at this. If you dont like the higher price for the same space, get used to the smaller space and deal. There has to be a trade off somewhere.
:beer:

hubenio would changing your schedule help matters?

The students would be already waiting for me for an hour in the classroom.:eek:

Chester Springs to Philly ??
That would not be a problem, since I would use the path and go. It is actually to Kennett Square.

How many people, even here in the commuter forum, happily ride across a 9 lane
Sometimes I want to do some uninterrupted hammer time and I peg along the 4 lane highway, where I have a broad shoulder and gentler hills. Cars weeze by, but my Sansa MP3 player prevents me to be annoyed by the noise. :D
Try commuting with Tom Waits and caring about the world.

The current state of automotive dependency of the united states is interestingly ironic, being that it was initiated primarily by public transport. When the trolley and the bicycle were the only way to get around, long before cars were reliable or affordable enough to be of any use - transport companies built lines out of the cities and into the surrounding country so that suburbs could be built and bring more patrons to the trolley system - people moved out of the city, away from their work - they had to use the trolley to get to work - until of course they were eventually able to afford cars, which they could drive anywhere whenever they wanted, instead of having to rely on the limited and scheduled service of the streetcar.

At the risk of piling on (there's no 'third man' rule in BF, is there?) I also disagree with this. Sure streetcar suburbs existed, but they still had compact form, since you still had to be able to walk to the station or the local market from home. So they were clusters of closely spaced houses along rail corridors. That's a lot different from the modern diffuse suburb where multilane roads lead to mega-malls, amid freeway cloverleads and 1/2 acre lots. The car is what made that possible. And tax dollars. The fix is to remove the hidden subsidies to suburban sprawl so people see, and bear, the true cost of that lifestyle.

That would not be a problem, since I would use the path and go. It is actually to Kennett Square.


Chester Springs to Kennett ?
Dutton Mill Rd into D-Town, Bus 30 West and get 82 south at Coatesville ??

Close, but that is longer.

Bodine road to valley hill road, to Route 100 (easier hills) all the way to West Chester. Route 52 south to Route 926. Then south 82. Less traffic and geometrically more direct. Hills are lesser and it is a little more sheltered from winds. I am trying to establish a 20 mph average speed record by the end of this summer. So far I run out of steam at 18 mph average on similar conditions.
Maybe next bike should be a Lemond Buenos Aires instread of another fixed gear.


That or get stronger.

^^^ OH, OK....I guess I am programmed to think 'less traffic'
20 mile average :eek: :eek: :eek: Wow.....Im up to 16 on my Cross Check
and I dont see how I could get any more. You are the man with even the 18 !!!!!!
20...YIKES..Good luck !
I hate to say it, but yeah....maybe gears and 32c tires ??

I have 25's .... I'll try 20's when this set wears out.

If in the old times people could do it without gears at the speeds I look forward too, maybe I can.

Those people drank, smoke , had sex, had children, and a second job.

I think I have an advantage