I was commuting to work. I turned on sixth street by the Amtrak station and this man came riding up beside me. He put out his hand for me to shake and said, "Hi, my name is James. What's yours?" I was a little weirded out because that is not normal for the bike community in Portland. This isn't New York City, you don't introduce yourself like that. I hesitantly put out my hand and told him my name.
"That's a pretty nice bike. How many speeds is it?"
"Seven."
"Where are you going?"
"To work."
"How fast do you normally ride?"
"Not that fast, I'm just going to work."
"Where are you going?"
By then I was really weirded out. I looked up at him, then down at the street. He had pushed me so close to the sidewalk I could have pedalled onto the curb. The bridge was coming up, there was a ramp onto the sidewalk. I turned onto the ramp and onto the sidewalk (I didn't want to be caught under the bridge with this guy). He turned his bike right in front of mine so I couldn't continue straight. I got off of my bike and stood behind it. By now I was really freaked out.
"Hi, my name is James. What's yours?
Again, I hesitantly put out my hand and said, "Erica." Firm grip. Too firm.
"NOW WHY IS IT THAT NO GIRLS IN THIS CITY WANT TO RIDE BIKES WITH ME? WHY IS IT THAT NO GIRLS WANT TO HAVE BREAKFAST WITH ME? WHY IS IT THAT NO GIRLS WANT TO GO TO MOVIES WITH ME?"
"I don't know," I said (totally scared at this point). He was standing so close. I bet he was on Meth.
"I DON'T KNOW IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER! WHY DON'T GIRLS TALK TO ME IN THIS CITY? ANSWER ME AND DON'T SAY I DON'T KNOW!"
"Sir, I don't know you. I don't know."
"I KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE."
"Sir. I don't know you."
"My name is James. What's yours?" (His eyes were as big as a deers by now.)
"Erica..."
"ANSWER ME. I DON'T KNOW IS NOT AN ANSWER. ANSWER ME IN FIVE SECONDS OR I'LL LET THE AIR OUT OF YOUR TIRES."
"I don't know you, I'm sorry."
"OKAY. My name is James. What's yours?"
"Erica." This time his handshake was so strong. I took my backpack off slowly and grabbed my phone out of my bag. I started to dial 911.
"OKAY I'M GOING TO GO THAT WAY [points north]. YOU DON'T GO THAT WAY. YOU GO THAT WAY [points south]. DON'T GO THAT WAY!"
Then he rides off. I talk to the dispatcher, they say a police officer will be there shortly. I started bawling. A nice man named Peter came and stood with me for a while. I was still hesitant to talk. The cops never showed. I ended up talking to an officer over the phone to make the report at almost five p.m. The incident happened a little after seven a.m.
This has urged me to start partner rides with other females at my work as well as making sure we all attend a self-defence class.
This world is full of crazy people. I just never want to go through that again. And I never want another female that I know to go through that. It would have been much different if it was night time and I went under that bridge for sure.
Please be careful out there.
Description: White male, mid to late 30's, 6'2"-ish, light brown hair, "chiseled" facial structure, older looking blue road bike with a rack on the back (items stored on it), wearing a hoodie or a baggy sweatshirt and slightly baggy pants. Name is "James."
Sorry for your experience, Erica. I'm a fit 225lb guy and I still carry a 23" telescoping baton. Personally, I don't put much stock in self defense classes for women. Fact is, most gals don't have the cajones (literally) to effectively defend themselves without using some kind of equalizer. Self defense is as much psychological as physical. You have to be willing to use overwelming force to initiate an escape or a victory.
Now, self defense awareness classes can be a good idea. There, you will possibly learn about some tools to apply. Situational awareness is the best defense, and you would probably get an ear-ful of that subject.
In our culture, we are enculcated with the idea that if we are nice, then bad things can be avoided. Especially girls. Sometimes it ain't so.
Males are strong. Even a male the same size and weight of a female will often be much stronger than the female. Testosterone makes this so. Our muscles and speed are tuned to maximum physical performance because of that strange chemical. Even when we're relatively out of shape.
You might consider carrying a can of pepper spray. A person with little or no training can effectively use it. Unlike a baton, it is a non-contact weapon and can give you some precious seconds to possibly shout for help or run into a nearby business, etc.
If this happens again, and a creep is as close as you say:
1) Get your hand on that pepper spray while you shout "BACK OFF, NOW!!"
2) Get distance between you and creepo. Don't show him the can of spray. Your hidden hand is intimidating.
3) Keep shouting. If creepo advances, hose 'im! You must soak the head/face area well.
4) Be prepared to run into a business or fight.
If you have to fight, you must win. A telescoping baton is a force multiplyer but you have to stike hard and repeatedly - not just once or twice. The arms, hands, head, face are the places it hurts the most. You have to be relentless and vicious. To understand how to stike effectively with a baton, I suggest trying to split a honeydew melon. Do it from different angles until you discover your maximum ability.
Good luck.
banerjek
05-11-06, 10:17 AM
There are many people with mental and chemical dependency issues. I think that if someone makes you uncomfortable, the first priority needs to be to get away. I think conflict, especially with the aid of a weapon (even if you are trained to use it), should be your last resort. Some people will pull really nasty tricks if you engage them -- there is serious risk of incurring permanent injury or even death.
Depending on circumstances, you can alter your route, outspeed whoever they are, enter a business, or even move right into the middle of traffic to get away.
One of the best things you can do to avoid bad situations (and get out of them) is to be aware of your surroundings and the opportunities/threats they present. If you do not have a helmet or glasses mounted mirror already, they are incredibly useful because you can watch behind you at any angle.
BTW, this is not just a women's issue. Creeps might bug women more often, but this kind of experience can happen to anyone.
chephy
05-11-06, 11:01 AM
BTW, this is not just a women's issue. Creeps might bug women more often, but this kind of experience can happen to anyone. mongoose stealthly approaches banerjek from behind and says in a low-pitched voice: "HELLO, MY NAME IS GIGI. WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO RIDE TO THE MOVIES WITH ME? ANSWER ME!!!! ANSWER ME NOW OR I WILL SPREAD YOUR BIKE FRAME!":eek: :D :D :D
Seriously though, you're right, of course. Creepy things can happen to anyone.
Bockman
05-11-06, 11:08 AM
Wash that hand.
eubi
05-11-06, 12:58 PM
Sorry your first post to BF was to complain about this harrassment.
Hopefully a few women on this forum will read this and have suggestions.
Stick around here for a while. It's a nice crowd.
HoustonB
05-11-06, 02:12 PM
Sorry to hear about this. That end of town, from the river and within 5 blocks of Burnside is where almost all of the homeless congregate. I work just a few blocks away (2nd and Oak).
Just to clarify: This happened near NW 6th Ave and NW Irving St. And the bridge you would have gone under is the Broadway bridge approach road (NW Johnson St) at 7 AM.
ellenDSD
05-11-06, 02:32 PM
Sounds scary! Glad you are ok :)
CB HI
05-11-06, 03:02 PM
Good to hear this incident has not killed your love for cycling.
Group riding is one way to prevent such problems. Other ideas include stun gun (may not be legal in Portland/Oregon), move cell phone to where you can immediately get to it (911 calls scare these type of guys more than almost anything else - even if the cops don’t respond), pepper spray (buy 2 and practice with one before you have to use it - you need to put as much spray in the eyes as you can as quickly as possible and then take off), don’t ever offer your hand (can be used to pull you down or prevent escape). Remember, you never have to be nice to strangers.
You kept your cool when you needed to and did the right thing by calling 911. No one should ever have to face this type of situation, but you did good and hopefully that will give you confidence.
Roody
05-11-06, 03:09 PM
Here are a few tips for men and women:
Never get that close to anybody you don't know. Never let anybody you don't know touch you. Pretend that you are calm and in control. Firmly order the person to "BACK OFF!" If he doesn't, make a lot of angry (not frightened) noises as you get away.
Eatadonut
05-11-06, 03:20 PM
At the point where he raised his voice, you should be off your bike (it between you two) and have your hand on your pepper spray. You tell him he's making you uncomfortable, and he needs to leave. If he doesn't, you IMMEDIATELY get after him with the pepper spray, get on the bike, and bolt. If it looks like he's not responding to the pain (which he might not be, depending on the drugs), find an area with lots of people and dial 911 in the meantime.
At least, that's what I would do - I hesitate to use a baton or the like, because I hate to hurt someone who really means no harm. However, that's me, the large guy who can hold his own in a fight - You are in a different position, and might have a different plan of action.
I would definitely start with pepper spray, though. It works too well to ignore it. Angry and drugged people can fight through pain, it's far less likely they'll fight through eyes and skin that burn like hell.
CB HI
05-11-06, 03:50 PM
... At least, that's what I would do - I hesitate to use a baton or the like, because I hate to hurt someone who really means no harm. However, that's me, the large guy who can hold his own in a fight - You are in a different position, and might have a different plan of action....
The thing is, this jerk would never approach one of us big guys.
Roody
05-11-06, 03:56 PM
The macho blowhards crawl out of the woodwork on threads like this. The advice to baton or pepper spray an obnoxious creep is obviously inappropriate, but I'm sure the OP is smart enough to ignore it.
However, Erica did make a mistake when she allowed this jerk to even approach and speak with her, let alone shake her hand. When strangers get within arm's length, you must back away, and you must TELL (not ask) them to keep away from them. Make a big noise, but, like I suggested before, sound angry rather than frightened. Back away. Order them repeatedly and angrily to leave you alone. NO matter what, never give anybody pernission to intimidate or harm you.
The main advantage you have is that you are smarter than him, and the cops and bystanders will want to help you, not him. Believe it or not, attacks like this are much more psychological than physical. You are not upset because he hurt your hand, you are upset because he scared you AND becaus he treated you like crap. Never let anybody treat you like that again, no matter who they are.
(BTW, If you pepper spray or baton somebody who has not attacked you, you might be arrested for assault. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry pepper spray, but this would not have been a good time to use it. Also you should never carry a weapon unless you have practiced and/or trained with it.)
Eatadonut
05-11-06, 04:02 PM
The macho blowhards crawl out of the woodwork on threads like this. The advice to baton or pepper spray an obnoxious creep is obviously inappropriate, but I'm sure the OP is smart enough to ignore it.
However, Erica did make a mistake when she allowed this jerk to even approach and speak with her, let alone shake her hand. When strangers get within arm's length, you must back away, and you must TELL (not ask) them to keep away from them. Make a big noise, but, like I suggested before, sound angry rather than frightened. Back away. Order them repeatedly and angrily to leave you alone. NO matter what, never give anybody pernission to intimidate or harm you.
(BTW, If you pepper spray or baton somebody who has not attacked you, you might be arrested for assault. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry pepper spray, but this would not have been a good time to use it. Also you should never carry a weapon unless you have practiced and/or trained with it.)
The macho blowhards are right, and I don't think you can cow me out of this one.
I'll take an accusation of assault over being raped or killed anyday. Drugees and rapists don't NEED your permission to harm you, they'll tear you apart whether or not you want them to.
Maybe I'm a blowhard, but you're naive.
Guest
05-11-06, 04:10 PM
I was commuting to work. I turned on sixth street by the Amtrak station and this man came riding up beside me. He put out his hand for me to shake and said, "Hi, my name is James. What's yours?" I was a little weirded out because that is not normal for the bike community in Portland. This isn't New York City, you don't introduce yourself like that. I hesitantly put out my hand and told him my name.
Mistake #1. Don't let some dumbass ride up behind you and trap you into a conversation. Don't engage said dumbass in a conversation and give your personal details to the guy.
"That's a pretty nice bike. How many speeds is it?"
"Seven."
"Where are you going?"
"To work."
"How fast do you normally ride?"
"Not that fast, I'm just going to work."
"Where are you going?"
Mistake #2. Why are you still talking with him? Give him the incentive to move on, not to encourage him to continue riding next to you and harass you.
By then I was really weirded out. I looked up at him, then down at the street. He had pushed me so close to the sidewalk I could have pedalled onto the curb. The bridge was coming up, there was a ramp onto the sidewalk. I turned onto the ramp and onto the sidewalk (I didn't want to be caught under the bridge with this guy). He turned his bike right in front of mine so I couldn't continue straight.
NEVER NEVER NEVER let a man edge you off the street or push you up against the curb- you're giving him all the control. Better to either speed up and try to outrun him and get to the nearest public place or find another cyclist that can help you. Or go to a sudden stop and and quickly turn around... count on your reflexes and him not being able to anticipate your sudden movements. And regardless of what people say about me being paranoid, I do always recommend every woman carry mace on them- either on a necklace around your neck or on a sweatband around your wrist- and if it's around your wrist, it has to be around the wrist of the weaker hand- so if you're left handed, the mace goes on the right wrist. If you're right handed, the mace goes around your left wrist. Then when you have to grab, you've got the mace in your dominant hand.
I got off of my bike and stood behind it. By now I was really freaked out.
That was smart- standing behind the bike is a good way to protect yourself in case he advances on you.
"Hi, my name is James. What's yours?
Again, I hesitantly put out my hand and said, "Erica." Firm grip. Too firm.
No, no, NO! Again, never engage in conversation, and certainly dont let him touch you. Once he had his hand on your wrist, what's to say he couldn't drag you into the bushes?
"NOW WHY IS IT THAT NO GIRLS IN THIS CITY WANT TO RIDE BIKES WITH ME? WHY IS IT THAT NO GIRLS WANT TO HAVE BREAKFAST WITH ME? WHY IS IT THAT NO GIRLS WANT TO GO TO MOVIES WITH ME?"
"I don't know," I said (totally scared at this point). He was standing so close. I bet he was on Meth.
Do not let anyone ever get that close to you ever. I like to have my "personal space". It's two arms' length. If anyone invades the "space", they're risking the loss of a limb or private part.
"I DON'T KNOW IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER! WHY DON'T GIRLS TALK TO ME IN THIS CITY? ANSWER ME AND DON'T SAY I DON'T KNOW!"
"Sir, I don't know you. I don't know."
"I KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE."
"Sir. I don't know you."
"My name is James. What's yours?" (His eyes were as big as a deers by now.)
"Erica..."
"ANSWER ME. I DON'T KNOW IS NOT AN ANSWER. ANSWER ME IN FIVE SECONDS OR I'LL LET THE AIR OUT OF YOUR TIRES."
"I don't know you, I'm sorry."
"OKAY. My name is James. What's yours?"
"Erica."
Ok, now he's threatening to get violent. Better for you to use sudden reflexes and jump on your bike and get away. Or flag down someone in a car... or someone on a bike. Something. And don't ever give out your personal information. There's no way I'd give out my name ever.
This time his handshake was so strong.
What??!! You let him touch you again? It's really lucky nothing happened to you.
I took my backpack off slowly and grabbed my phone out of my bag. I started to dial 911.
That was smart. But this week, you'll want to head out to the mall and find a cell phone holder that attaches to your arm so you can get at your phone easily.
"OKAY I'M GOING TO GO THAT WAY [points north]. YOU DON'T GO THAT WAY. YOU GO THAT WAY [points south]. DON'T GO THAT WAY!"
Then he rides off. I talk to the dispatcher, they say a police officer will be there shortly. I started bawling. A nice man named Peter came and stood with me for a while. I was still hesitant to talk. The cops never showed. I ended up talking to an officer over the phone to make the report at almost five p.m. The incident happened a little after seven a.m.
Next time cops don't show, call 911 and scream rape. Then call again and again until the cops come.
This has urged me to start partner rides with other females at my work as well as making sure we all attend a self-defence class.
Smart move. Riding with another person might help you, especially if you're not going to carry mace (or some other kind of protection).
This world is full of crazy people. I just never want to go through that again. And I never want another female that I know to go through that. It would have been much different if it was night time and I went under that bridge for sure.
Please be careful out there.
Description: White male, mid to late 30's, 6'2"-ish, light brown hair, "chiseled" facial structure, older looking blue road bike with a rack on the back (items stored on it), wearing a hoodie or a baggy sweatshirt and slightly baggy pants. Name is "James."
Be careful out there- and be aware of your surroundings and put together different scenarios and how you'd resolve them. That way, if some fool comes up towards you, you've already got your escape ready to go, and you will have the element of surprise with the potential scumbag. Every little bit helps you get one step farther away from the freak.
Sorry to hear about it, though. And I'm glad to hear you're ok.
Koffee
CB HI
05-11-06, 04:12 PM
..., and the cops and bystanders will want to help you, not him.
The cops really helped here, did not even respond to the 911 call.
People really need to be ready to protect themselves, the cops normally only follow up after the serious crime has occurred. They rarely stop the assault, rape, shooting, robbery, etc.
Roody
05-11-06, 04:18 PM
The macho blowhards are right, and I don't think you can cow me out of this one.
I'll take an accusation of assault over being raped or killed anyday. Drugees and rapists don't NEED your permission to harm you, they'll tear you apart whether or not you want them to.
Maybe I'm a blowhard, but you're naive.
Maybe blowhard was too strong a word, I apologize. But I'm not naive. I grew up in inner city Detroit and I still live and bike (often at night) in the rougher part of another Michigan city. I have worked with severely disturbed psychiatric inpatients for more than 25 years.
The simple truth is, after you get past the fear factor, this creep did not assault Erica. He did not even threaten to assault her. What did he do? He psychologically intimidated her and frightened her. He shamefully disrespected her humanity. However, strange as it seems, that is not against the law unless he actually uses coersion to attempt to commit a crime, such as robbery or sexual assault.
If Erica had used a strong arm tactic against him, she would have been escalating the situation. Spraying him or hitting almost certainly would have incited him to use violence. That would not have been good for Erica, as he likely would win in a physical fight, even if he had a face full of pepper spray.
Your best weapon when dealing with sombody like this is intelligence and especially self-control. Fear is his weapon, and that is what you must fight against.
Erica
05-11-06, 04:42 PM
The first mistake I made was telling him my name. I know that now. Between him first saying hi and me getting off of my bike and onto the sidewalk, only one minute had passed. Situations like this happen so fast and when you've never had to deal with something like that, you go with your gut. And my gut told me to just stay calm and try to end the conversation. I could have walked away but he was less than a foot away from me and I didn't want my back turned to him. I also could have yelled for help but I didn't think to do that at the time.
But really, there's no need to tear apart this situation. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It happened and I will be more aware next time (hopefully there is not a next time though). I put this out here so that other females (and males!) would be aware before an unfortunate confrontation.
And people in Portland: I have already received other reports of this guy verbally assaulting females around the city. This is not an isolated situation. But unfortunately this is not breaking the law and he can not be arrested for it.
Thank you all for your concern and I do plan on sticking around these boards. :)
Erica
05-11-06, 04:44 PM
If Erica had used a strong arm tactic against him, she would have been escalating the situation. Spraying him or hitting almost certainly would have incited him to use violence. That would not have been good for Erica, as he likely would win in a physical fight, even if he had a face full of pepper spray.
Precisely. If I had tried any sort of force I would have lost. It would have pushed the situation way beyond control. I'm interested in having pepper spray on me but I think that this certain situation it would not have helped at all.
chipcom
05-11-06, 04:45 PM
Aww, I'm sorry that this had to happen and I am glad you are OK. I suspect he did not have all of his marbles in play from reading your post and, unfortunately, you come across people like that during your lifetime no matter what precautions, preperations or preventative steps you take. I think you handled it just fine...not perfect, but anytime you come home alive and well, you did OK. Learn from it and move on, living and enjoying your life.
Guest
05-11-06, 04:50 PM
The first mistake I made was telling him my name. I know that now. Between him first saying hi and me getting off of my bike and onto the sidewalk, only one minute had passed. Situations like this happen so fast and when you've never had to deal with something like that, you go with your gut. And my gut told me to just stay calm and try to end the conversation. I could have walked away but he was less than a foot away from me and I didn't want my back turned to him. I also could have yelled for help but I didn't think to do that at the time.
But really, there's no need to tear apart this situation. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It happened and I will be more aware next time (hopefully there is not a next time though). I put this out here so that other females (and males!) would be aware before an unfortunate confrontation.
And people in Portland: I have already received other reports of this guy verbally assaulting females around the city. This is not an isolated situation. But unfortunately this is not breaking the law and he can not be arrested for it.
Thank you all for your concern and I do plan on sticking around these boards. :)
And here's what you need to know- in a situation like this, YOU DO NEED TO TEAR APART THIS SITUATION. You already said you've never been in this situation and you didn't know what to do. By going through what you did wrong, you'll know what to do right if it ever happens again.
I'm glad you plan to stick around.
Koffee
banerjek
05-11-06, 05:01 PM
Mistake #1. Don't let some dumbass ride up behind you and trap you into a conversation. Don't engage said dumbass in a conversation and give your personal details to the guy.
Note that this is one thing that mirrors are good for preventing. You can usually tell very easily whether someone's simply a fast rider or they're trying to catch up with you for some reason. If you think they're interested in you and you have any doubts, kick up the pace and go wherever you're going to go to avoid them. It's much easier to lose people when they're still a block behind you.
I think Koffee's advice is spot on except for the bit about the mace. Don't feel obligated to be nice to weirdos -- if you want to extricate yourself from an uncomfortable conversation, just say that you're late to an appointment, gotta run, take care, etc. Also, avoid telling them anything about your personal habits. You can appear to answer the question without giving useful info.
The reason I don't believe in weapons is that any halfwit will disable you before you get a chance to use it. I once got ambushed by 4 guys -- I took a blow to the head from behind and was on the ground before I even knew I was attacked. The sense of violation of getting stripped of what you have is incredible. When I figured out what was happening, I fought for everything I was worth. Even though I didn't give up until I was beaten so badly I couldn't move, I never had a chance. My main consolation was that the incompetent morons couldn't break my jaw even though they tried for awhile. I have no idea how many blows I took to the face.
Point being, I would have been worse off with a weapon. I would have have still been knocked down, they would have found it, and I could have been maced, tasered, batoned, stabbed etc instead of just being beaten and kicked. Plus, people can get cranky if you attempt to use a weapon on them and somehow fail.
Mycos
05-11-06, 05:27 PM
Move to Florida (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/30/AR2005043000735.html). Then you can just shoot people if they make you nervous.
CB HI
05-11-06, 06:27 PM
Move to Florida (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/30/AR2005043000735.html). Then you can just shoot people if they make you nervous.
Typical BS article from the Washington Post where only the criminals are allowed to carry guns and shoot people. Ever wonder why Washington D.C. was the murder capital.
The Florida law allows proportional force in defending ones self, nothing more.
Recently in Hawaii, a meth attic for no reason tried to force his way into a couple’s apartment. The homeowner called 911 and the meth attic fled. The police came out, took a report and left. Shortly after, the meth attic returned, broke a window and reached in to try and open the front door. Again, the homeowner called 911 and the meth attic flees. The police come out and again take a report and leave. You would think the police might hang around in case this guys returns a third time - not in Honolulu. While the homeowner is outside sweeping up the broken glass, the meth attic returns, charges the couple, forces his way into the apartment and runs into the girl friend knocking her to the ground as the meth attic falls on top of her and will not get off her. The homeowner grabs 2 kitchen knives and stabs the meth attic. The meth attic dies in the apartment. The police arrive and arrest the homeowner for second degree murder.
The homeowner now has to pay an attorney, to try and get the second degree murder arrest expunged from his, otherwise, clean record.
I think I like Florida’s system better.
Eatadonut
05-11-06, 06:29 PM
The simple truth is, after you get past the fear factor, this creep did not assault Erica. He did not even threaten to assault her. What did he do? He psychologically intimidated her and frightened her. He shamefully disrespected her humanity. However, strange as it seems, that is not against the law unless he actually uses coersion to attempt to commit a crime, such as robbery or sexual assault.
He gave her a very threatening ultimatum in threatening to let the air out of her tires if she didn't respond. He yelled at her. He invaded her personal space. You can be arrested just for calling someone repeatedly when you know they don't want to hear from you, and you don't think it's wrong for someone to use superior size to intimidate someone? Besides, in this age of terrorism, he would most certainly be found in the wrong.
And I stand by my decision. If I feel that a situation might end up with me being harmed in some way, I will strike first, and I will strike hard. If you feel that the pepper spray wouldn't have stopped him and would have just escalated the matter, then maybe it's time to invest in a taser gun.
sgtsmile
05-11-06, 06:35 PM
Mycos... that is stupid advice.
Regarding weapons, banerjerk makes a good point. Unless you really know what you are doing, having a weapon is giving your assallant something to use on you. What scares me about your story - besides the obvious emotional trauma you underwent (I am glad it worked out well for you) - is the lack of response from the police, ESPECIALLY since you reported in your second post that this is a known issue! If I was you, I would be taking issue with them and with local politians about their lack of response. I am not sure what the crime rate is like in your area, but if I had a response time like that here (Ontario, Canada, urban environment) I would blow my stack at the cops repeatedly until I got satisfaction.
Btw, at least here, he broke the law and could be charged with criminal harassment and intimidation and uttering threats. What he did was, here at least, totally illegal. I find it hard to believe that a person can physically hold a person against their will, intimidate them, and scare them that badly and it not be illegal. Wow.
Az B
05-11-06, 06:35 PM
The thing is, this jerk would never approach one of us big guys.
That's not true, crazy and meth addled nitwits rarely think rationally enough to consider much of anything.
I carry pepper spray, it works on dogs and people and is non-lethal. If it was me on the bike, I probably wouldv'e given him a hard kick to the knee and ridden off. 8 lbs of pressure is all that's required to break a knee when it's pushed in a direction that it doesn't bend. He won't be chasing you with a broken knee no matter how crazy or stoned he is.
Az
sgtsmile
05-11-06, 06:38 PM
That's not true, crazy and meth addled nitwits rarely think rationally enough to consider much of anything.
I carry pepper spray, it works on dogs and people and is non-lethal. If it was me on the bike, I probably wouldv'e given him a hard kick to the knee and ridden off. 8 lbs of pressure is all that's required to break a knee when it's pushed in a direction that it doesn't bend. He won't be chasing you with a broken knee no matter how crazy or stoned he is.
Az
I was going to mention the knee, a real weak spot..... but again, caution is I think needed. Flight is almost always a smarter option than escalating it to a fight.
donnamb
05-11-06, 09:49 PM
How terrifying! We've got some real doozies downtown. Still, that's really agressive by Portland standards. Is there any way you can route yourself so that you're not going near the train station? It is so close to the bus station, Transitions Projects, Sisters of the Road, and all the other homeless/marginal social service agencies - a real chaos magnet. The vast majority of the marginals would leave you alone, and a few of them would have stuck up for you had they seen it happen, but there are those scary few who are like time bombs. Did he look meth-ed out? Some of what you describe seems kind of meth-y to me. (I work in a clinic downtown that provides drug treatment.) I have to say, I don't even like to be around that area in the middle of the day with lots of people, much less the morning. (Was it the morning?)
And people in Portland: I have already received other reports of this guy verbally assaulting females around the city. This is not an isolated situation. But unfortunately this is not breaking the law and he can not be arrested for it.
Haven't encountered this guy yet or seen him in action. It would be really helpful if someone could get his picture with a cell phone camera or something. I've still retained my repellent, evil-eye, get-out-of-my-face attitude from growing up in Detroit, but it's not as effective after 10 years of Portland good manners wearing it down. I can totally see how easy it would be to get sucked in, especially where we live. The non-scary, older homeless downtown are actually ok, and many of them ride bikes. I'm cautiously friendly to the "regulars".
Blue Order
05-11-06, 10:18 PM
A self-defense "class" isn't a bad idea at all; however, to be able to effectively defend yourself, you have to put more effort into it than going to a class. You have to train and practice and work at it, just like anything else in life. It's not a casual undertaking. That said, a self-defense "class" geared towards womens self-defense can at least give you some basic ideas on what to do, and is not a bad idea.
If you truly want to be able to defend yourself (I mean with your hands and feet, rather than with pepper spray or a weapon), you'll need to research what types of martial arts there are in town, what they teach, and think about how that works for someone like you. For example, if you're a small woman, you will want to learn techniques that don't rely on you being more powerful than your opponent; you will want to learn techniques that let you turn your opponent's power against him. It's not difficult to learn, but it does take time and commitment and practice.
Blue Order
05-11-06, 10:27 PM
And people in Portland: I have already received other reports of this guy verbally assaulting females around the city. This is not an isolated situation. But unfortunately this is not breaking the law and he can not be arrested for it.
Thank you all for your concern and I do plan on sticking around these boards. :)Not sure I agree that it's not breaking the law. This guy is obviously dangerous, and needs to be taken off the streets before somebody gets hurt. Worth looking into the legalities, in my opinion. Ask a lawyer. If you don't know who to ask, try local bike lawyer Ray Thomas (http://www.stc-law.com/rthomas.html).
Glad you escaped intact.
CB HI
05-11-06, 11:23 PM
And people in Portland: I have already received other reports of this guy verbally assaulting females around the city. This is not an isolated situation.
The thing is, this jerk would never approach one of us big guys.
That's not true, crazy and meth addled nitwits rarely think rationally enough to consider much of anything.
I carry pepper spray, it works on dogs and people and is non-lethal. If it was me on the bike, I probably wouldv'e given him a hard kick to the knee and ridden off. 8 lbs of pressure is all that's required to break a knee when it's pushed in a direction that it doesn't bend. He won't be chasing you with a broken knee no matter how crazy or stoned he is.
Then why are all of the reports of him verbally assaulting females? This guy does understand the trouble he can get in with the police and that a big guy might just pound him into the ground.
Yes others may not me lucent enough, but this guy is.
Daily Commute
05-12-06, 02:45 AM
Since this guy has dones this to others in Portland, contact http://www.bikeportland.org/ and see if they will put up an "action alert" on their site. I criticize the organized Portland cycling community a lot, but this is a time to take advantage of that organization. They might also be able to help convince the city that they need to direct some resources to finding this guy while he's still only being creepy.
helvetica
05-12-06, 02:54 AM
Typical BS article from the Washington Post where only the criminals are allowed to carry guns and shoot people. Ever wonder why Washington D.C. was the murder capital.
The Florida law allows proportional force in defending ones self, nothing more.
Recently in Hawaii, a meth attic for no reason tried to force his way into a couple’s apartment. The homeowner called 911 and the meth attic fled. The police came out, took a report and left. Shortly after, the meth attic returned, broke a window and reached in to try and open the front door. Again, the homeowner called 911 and the meth attic flees. The police come out and again take a report and leave. You would think the police might hang around in case this guys returns a third time - not in Honolulu. While the homeowner is outside sweeping up the broken glass, the meth attic returns, charges the couple, forces his way into the apartment and runs into the girl friend knocking her to the ground as the meth attic falls on top of her and will not get off her. The homeowner grabs 2 kitchen knives and stabs the meth attic. The meth attic dies in the apartment. The police arrive and arrest the homeowner for second degree murder.
The homeowner now has to pay an attorney, to try and get the second degree murder arrest expunged from his, otherwise, clean record.
I think I like Florida’s system better.
tottally on your side, why do people not mess with "gangsters, and thugs?" because we think they have guns.
Regarding weapons, banerjerk makes a good point. Unless you really know what you are doing, having a weapon is giving your assallant something to use on you.
BS if you know how to use your weapon youll never end up in this situation.
he said being maced and tasers and batoned.... Ok mace and taser is non leathel yeah it hurts, but you wont die unless youre some fat man. I wouldnt cary anything to beat anyone, except my lock. So I have pepper spray and a heavy lock to defend myself with. If anyone one says give me your bike. I say here take it put it on the floor for htem to take, they reach for it mouth full of mace, at this point im prepared to hit them with the lock. Point it I keep the bike and Im not hurt.
sgtsmile
05-12-06, 04:47 AM
BS if you know how to use your weapon youll never end up in this situation.
Thanks for agreeing with me, since what I said was IF you dont know what you are doing, you are arming your opponant.
Az B
05-12-06, 04:52 AM
I was going to mention the knee, a real weak spot..... but again, caution is I think needed. Flight is almost always a smarter option than escalating it to a fight.
Smacking the kneecap and fleeing is not escalating to a fight, it is about ensuring a successful flight.
Az
Az B
05-12-06, 04:56 AM
Then why are all of the reports of him verbally assaulting females? This guy does understand the trouble he can get in with the police and that a big guy might just pound him into the ground.
Yes others may not me lucent enough, but this guy is.
What I meant was that you can't simply guarantee that just because you're a big, scary looking guy that crazies will leave you alone. Some of them really are crazy.
Az
sgtsmile
05-12-06, 04:56 AM
Smacking the kneecap and fleeing is not escalating to a fight, it is about ensuring a successful flight.
Az
I know, what I was refering to was the notion that flight is a better option but if you have to clobber someone, the knee is a weak spot.
banerjek
05-12-06, 10:57 AM
BS if you know how to use your weapon youll never end up in this situation.
I assure you this is not BS. If you were going to attack someone who you thought might be armed, would you give them a chance to use a weapon? Neither will a thug with any brains. Even the dumb ones will learn the hard way quickly, so if he's experienced, you still have a problem. Also, bad guys don't only work alone. When they cooperate, expect to suddenly be surrounded. Some carry heat which works a little better than a baton or mace.....
On TV, there's practically always a showdown where you get a chance to react. Real life doesn't work like that. I knew a guy that could break 3 concrete blocks with his bare hands who was sent to the hospital for a long time because someone knocked him over the head from behind with a pipe.
I've had the misfortune of being mugged 3 times (caused largely by my insistence on being where I shouldn't at the wrong time and not being mindful of surroundings). I lost my money all 3 times, but the one thing the situations all had in common was that I was taken by surprise and did not get a chance to react.
If someone attacks you, chances are they have more experience with that type of situation than you. So the odds are against you. Even if you do have more experience/training, they could just get lucky. If you have a weapon, you get exactly ONE chance to use it right. Especially if you are dealing with multiple assailants, good luck.
The best way to deal with attacks is to avoid situations that can lead to them. If you're aware of your surroundings and avoid being by yourself, you've probably improved your situation by 98%. If you do get unlucky, being cooperative and losing the money/stuff is the way to go.
Wanting to fight in a situation like that is natural, but stupid. I fought once (still lost wallet, watch, jacket) etc and wound up getting pounded into dog food rather than settling for a knot on the head from the initial blow from behind to subdue me.
If your life depends on it and you have no other choice, by all means pull out all stops. But fighting with professionals and people who are too stupid/high to realize how dangerous it is extremely risky.
Roody
05-12-06, 11:43 AM
Precisely. If I had tried any sort of force I would have lost. It would have pushed the situation way beyond control. I'm interested in having pepper spray on me but I think that this certain situation it would not have helped at all.
I'm glad you weren't hurt physically, and you learned from the situation. I'm even gladder you have the courage and grace to get back in the saddle. :)
The macho guys should consider--the only way your (Erica's) actions can be judged is by the outcome. The creep didn't hurt you, and you lived to fight (or run;)) another day. You probably don't have the physical or mental ability to fight off an attacker, even with a weapon. You need to be able to a) order the guy to leave you alone; b) Come across as angry, not frightened; c) get away from him; d) get help; and e) follow up with reporting, warning others, and processing what you can learn from the incident.
It would not be a bad thing for Erica to have pepper spray, and learn how to use it. But I think she's correct that it would not have been appropriate in this situation.
The creep was probably trying to feel Erica out. He was trying various approaches (friendly, commanding, menacing) to see which one she would respond to. In effect, he was trying to determine if she would make a good victim to fulfill his sick or evil needs. Never put yourself in the position of being the victim.
LittleBigMan
05-12-06, 11:51 AM
I was commuting to work. I turned on sixth street by the Amtrak station and this man came riding up beside me. He put out his hand for me to shake and said, "Hi, my name is James. What's yours?"
<snip>
"ANSWER ME. I DON'T KNOW IS NOT AN ANSWER. ANSWER ME IN FIVE SECONDS OR I'LL LET THE AIR OUT OF YOUR TIRES."
This is probably why that lady cyclist I said "hello" to a while back totally ignored me.
TYB069
05-12-06, 12:56 PM
I assure you this is not BS. If you were going to attack someone who you thought might be armed, would you give them a chance to use a weapon? Neither will a thug with any brains. Even the dumb ones will learn the hard way quickly, so if he's experienced, you still have a problem. Also, bad guys don't only work alone. When they cooperate, expect to suddenly be surrounded. Some carry heat which works a little better than a baton or mace.....
On TV, there's practically always a showdown where you get a chance to react. Real life doesn't work like that. I knew a guy that could break 3 concrete blocks with his bare hands who was sent to the hospital for a long time because someone knocked him over the head from behind with a pipe.
I've had the misfortune of being mugged 3 times (caused largely by my insistence on being where I shouldn't at the wrong time and not being mindful of surroundings). I lost my money all 3 times, but the one thing the situations all had in common was that I was taken by surprise and did not get a chance to react.
If someone attacks you, chances are they have more experience with that type of situation than you. So the odds are against you. Even if you do have more experience/training, they could just get lucky. If you have a weapon, you get exactly ONE chance to use it right. Especially if you are dealing with multiple assailants, good luck.
The best way to deal with attacks is to avoid situations that can lead to them. If you're aware of your surroundings and avoid being by yourself, you've probably improved your situation by 98%. If you do get unlucky, being cooperative and losing the money/stuff is the way to go.
Wanting to fight in a situation like that is natural, but stupid. I fought once (still lost wallet, watch, jacket) etc and wound up getting pounded into dog food rather than settling for a knot on the head from the initial blow from behind to subdue me.
If your life depends on it and you have no other choice, by all means pull out all stops. But fighting with professionals and people who are too stupid/high to realize how dangerous it is extremely risky.
I think this is the key. Pay attention and don't be where you shouldn't be.
Lots of situations like this can be avoided by simply paying attention to things that don't seem right. If you think someone is following you, speed up and go somewhere where there are people or turn around and check. Sometimes the element of suprise is all a creep has.
Use common sense about where you go. For instance, do I really need to take the shortest route or is this longer route better because there are more people/better neighborhoods? If you don't feel safe, don't go that way anymore. Avoid certain neighborhoods after dark (cliche but wise).
To the op, take this experience and learn from it. You could modify your route if there is a similar one that you feel may be safer or get some personal safety training or pepper spray, etc. I think that by following some of the advice in this thread, you will be well on your way to being more prepared for a similar situation (or able to avoid one altogher).
CB HI
05-12-06, 02:22 PM
What I meant was that you can't simply guarantee that just because you're a big, scary looking guy that crazies will leave you alone. Some of them really are crazy.
Az
Sounds like we actually agree. You are talking in general, while I was talking about this one specific guy based on the OPs description of the incident.
Knudsen
05-12-06, 05:46 PM
I can't read the whole thread right now, Erica, but please get some pepper spray if it's legal in your state.
donnamb
05-12-06, 05:54 PM
I think this is the key. Pay attention and don't be where you shouldn't be.
Lots of situations like this can be avoided by simply paying attention to things that don't seem right.
My favorite book on the subject of recognizing dangerous situations is The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. Yes, most of the time our "bad feeling about something" is right on target.
Have you seen this section of the Oregon Criminal Code:
163.275 Coercion. (1) A person commits the crime of coercion when the person compels or induces another person to engage in conduct from which the other person has a legal right to abstain, or to abstain from engaging in conduct in which the other person has a legal right to engage, by means of instilling in the other person a fear that, if the other person refrains from the conduct compelled or induced or engages in conduct contrary to the compulsion or inducement, the actor or another will:
(a) Unlawfully cause physical injury to some person; or
(b) Unlawfully cause damage to property; or
(c) Engage in conduct constituting a crime; or
(d) Falsely accuse some person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against the person; or
(e) Cause or continue a strike, boycott or other collective action injurious to some person’s business, except that such a threat shall not be deemed coercive when the act or omission compelled is for the benefit of the group in whose interest the actor purports to act; or
(f) Testify falsely or provide false information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another’s legal claim or defense; or
(g) Unlawfully use or abuse the person’s position as a public servant by performing some act within or related to official duties, or by failing or refusing to perform an official duty, in such manner as to affect some person adversely.
(2) Coercion is a Class C felony. [1971 c.743 §102; 1983 c.546 §4; 1985 c.338 §1]
I don't know who's saying that this guy can't be arrested, but I don't believe it. If you and other PDX women he's approached want him taken off the street, I believe it's possible to do. You should approach the D.A.'s office about it. If you need some advice about how to do that, PM me.
Polonswim
05-12-06, 10:29 PM
I am glad you are ok.
StumpHumper
05-13-06, 02:25 AM
This is to banerjek...
You should stop dressing like a guy who rides an expensive bike and wearing a mirror on your helmet... thats why you keep getting robbed.. don't even carry a wallet or a watch, carry a cell for the time and to call 911 if you need too. I ride by all kinds of bums and thugs, they look at me like **** that dudes moving..plus I dress in regular clothes to go biking. How come you don't just haul ass real quick..?? I mean I usually ride fast and aggressive like if I see a couple people acting suspicious.. honestly you gotta act like you don't care.. like you got nothing to lose..
If the OG poster sees this its not about you, that guy sounded like a psycho who was deranged, not just thugs out to rob some guy..
mlh122
05-13-06, 04:26 PM
My Dad took a lot of martial arts when he was younger, he used to have me try to hit him with a baton, and over and over he would catch it and take it from me and slap my cheek (very light) before i had any idea what had happened. He could do that no matter how hard i swung it. i would do it for like 20 minutes just amazed it never made contact, i would swing at many different angles. also when he had it he could tap me anywhere he wanted and i couldn't even touch the baton with my hands. maybe im slow?
Also I knew a girl in high school that had big brothers in the marines and rangers, she showed me how a hand shake can turn into a broken arm.
also, despite my warnings, my wife is the most naive person i know. she likes jogging alone with an mp3 player on at 1am. she's been approached by many strangers asking for drugs or other things and she thinks nothing of it. she's somewhat trained in ju kai do or something but still worries me.
Blue Order
05-13-06, 04:40 PM
My Dad took a lot of martial arts when he was younger, he used to have me try to hit him with a baton, and over and over he would catch it and take it from me and slap my cheek (very light) before i had any idea what had happened. He could do that no matter how hard i swung it. i would do it for like 20 minutes just amazed it never made contact, i would swing at many different angles. also when he had it he could tap me anywhere he wanted and i couldn't even touch the baton with my hands. maybe im slow?
Also I knew a girl in high school that had big brothers in the marines and rangers, she showed me how a hand shake can turn into a broken arm.
also, despite my warnings, my wife is the most naive person i know. she likes jogging alone with an mp3 player on at 1am. she's been approached by many strangers asking for drugs or other things and she thinks nothing of it. she's somewhat trained in ju kai do or something but still worries me.Yep. I've known people who could kick me in the head at will, before I could react. Baton in my hands or not. It all depends on who you're facing. A baton isn't a "bad" idea, but the notion that a baton is more effective than proper training is wishful thinking.
Bad idea about jogging alone at 1 AM with an MP3. It's a problem waiting to happen. If you can't talk her into something more reasonable, you should go jogging with her.