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Hello people!
Bringing up a tired old subject once again -- chain lube -- but someone needs to put it to bed because there’s a lot of chain on these tandems and newbies can be simply pointed to the data in the future.
Motorcycle Consumer News published a pretty good (but crude) motorcycle chain lube comparison in Sept. '01. They looked at a number of chain lube issues including first and second order rolling resistance (power loss), grit pickup, chain sling, corrosion resistance, cost, and value. They found up to 1 to 3 Hp loss between “dry” lubes and “wet” lubes, but on the very different o-ring motorcycle chains. It would be fun to have similar data for bicycles because I may want my ultra clean hot wax treatment for “normal” riding but lay on the grease for a century. Or not.
They’ve apparently done precision power measurements for the new ceramic bearings, but I can’t find any for ordinary bicycle chains. Does it exist somewhere?
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good luck. I think the most important aspect of any chain lube is frequency of application.
It would be fun to have similar data for bicycles because I may want my ultra clean hot wax treatment for “normal” riding but lay on the grease for a century. Or not.
You can start your reseach here...
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html
If you really want to waste some time, this is pretty interesting.
http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=JMDEDB000123000004000598000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal
However, in the time it will take to do read through this stuff you could fire up your double-boiler and relube enough chains to last a season or two. I wax too... good for about 500-600 miles before the chains start complaining (or about 5 miles in a steady downpour).
rjberner & TandemGeek,
How do you wax? What product do you use?
good luck. I think the most important aspect of any chain lube is frequency of application.
I ride mainly offroad so put the chain through a lot of punishment- Main thing is to clean the chain using the chain cleaner tool, and then washing out the cleaner Fluid (Water based) with a water displacement oil (WD40 or the like) Then you can start oiling the chain. I use two. Both made by Pedros and the dry lube is what it says- A dry lube, but this does not pick up the dust from the trails and turn it into grinding paste that a Wet lube will do. Only problem with the dry lube is that it can be washed off the chain with water or Mud. Hence the use of the Pedros Syn lube whenever it is wet. If the ride is going to last longer than 2 hours in the wet- then I always relube after this time- but this can be stretched to 3 hours in the dry.
I don't even use the same lube all the time because there are different riding areas that call for different lubes and even my road bikes get different treatments depending.
There is no one best all around lube.
My setup for Moab is totally different from my winter rides at Tahoe.
Riding the Banana Classic is a different set up from a fast time trial in Seattle.
What product do you use?
Probably about two pints of "home brew" made up of: 70% Gulf canning wax, 10% beeswax, 10% mineral oil & 10% petrolatum (vaseline), which sits in a "Fry-Daddy" deep fryer. It's a very geeky thing to do, but old habits are hard to break. You can find various descriptions and other "recipies" for wax by searching the web for "hot melt paraffin chain wax".
On days when it looks like we'll be caught out in the rain, a tube of Pedro's Ice Wax goes in my Jersey as heavy rain will dilute and wash-out the paraffin wax. Pedros is still a dry lube that will "help us along" until I can get a spare, pre-waxed chain put on to replace the messed up one. Pedros also strips off cleanly without requiring a complete chain strip which you'd have to do if I used a wet lube as a "touch-up".
Boeshield T9 also works well when we're away on trips so long as you put it on the night before and do a good job of wiping the excess off before you ride. It can make a mess of your chains if you try to use it on a wet chain or before it dries.
While the paraffin wax lube is my default for the road tandem and our "nice road bikes", as others noted, I use a several different lubes for the bikes that see lots of rain and the variety off-road conditions...
Bottom Line: Unlike many years ago when chains were far more durable and long-wearing, todays chains are best bought on sale and treated like "consumable items". Keep them clean enough to prevent the rest of your drive train from getting mucked up, and replace them before they wear out, lest they do any damage to your more expensive cassette cogs or chain rings.
rjberner & TandemGeek,
How do you wax? What product do you use?
I've used straight parafin wax by Gulf wax. Every 250 - 300 miles, I soak the chains in the wax in a dbl boiler for about 20 minutes and then let them cool on alum foil. I will be trying a higher oil content premium candle wax next time, with a MP of 128 deg. F. I used to squirt some Phil Wood tenacious oil in the mess, but this just got the drive system dirtier.
I figure I've got about $250 - $300 worth of alloy cogs to protect on any one bicycle and this method has done it very nicely over the years.
But on a tandem, I hesitate to keep loosening the eccentric to pull the timing chain so I can wax it. I fear that I will wear memory flats in the eccentric and screw with my future ability to re-tighten the chain. So I'm reluctantly talking myself into lubing this chain on the bike, unless my fears are unfounded.
Bottom Line: Unlike many years ago when chains were far more durable and long-wearing, todays chains are best bought on sale and treated like "consumable items". Keep them clean enough to prevent the rest of your drive train from getting mucked up, and replace them before they wear out, lest they do any damage to your more expensive cassette cogs or chain rings.
This is something I 100% agree on. Just recently changed the chain and rear cassette for new. Then found out that I had severe chain slip in the middle ring on the crank. I cannot complain though as this was the only crank ring to change and the front rings have been on for 3 years. In that time I have not changed the rear cassette and I have had 4 new chains on it.
However on the crossover chain- I have just changed that- unnecessarily. The sprockets were wearing so I decided to fit new sprockets and chain as I have started to get the teeth a little too worn. Got the shop to check the stretch on the old chain and there is negligible wear on it. However- I have now fitted the new chain for peace of mind and I have a good chain if I do break the new one.
I am certain that the reason I get so long out of Cassettes and Chain rings is that I keep the chain clean and change it on a frequent basis. 1 cassette to 4 chains is better than the 1 to 2 ratio I get on the solo that no longer receives the attention it should.
rjberner & TandemGeek,
How do you wax? What product do you use?
Now this threw me for a second -- I had to double-check that I was in the right forum. :rolleyes: :D
-Greg
But on a tandem, I hesitate to keep loosening the eccentric to pull the timing chain so I can wax it.
Two alternatives:
1. Leave just enough slack in the chain so that you can derail the chain with your hands while either freewheeling (in the workstand) or backpedalling the cranks. There's a fairly wide margin of room (~1/2"?) between having it loose enough to pull off and put on without "nicking" the teeth on your timing rings (and if you do, a flat file will fix those) and having it loose enough to come off whilst engaged in a spirited sprint or navigating a rugged road.
2. Install crank extractors on one or both sets of your cranks to greatly simplify and speed up the removal of one of the left-side timing cranks: the chain will come off with the crank. Note: If you installed self-extractors, be mindful after you first install them to make sure they fully seat and then keep an eye on them for the first 20 miles or so. The left side bolts have a tendency to unscrew themselves if they're not fully torqued which makes for a wobbly feeling pedal / crank. Left unchecked, you can damage your cranks and/or bottom bracket spindle. BTW, self-extractors can be a lifesaver if you ever drop your chain into the gap between your main crank and the rear bottom bracket. A few turns of the 6mm hex wrench (extra tool to carry, but worth it) and everything comes loose. A far better option than trying to force the chain out (See other posting on Chain Watcher / Third Eye).
Now this through me for a second -- I had to double-check that I was in the right forum. :rolleyes: :D
-Greg
Yes, it is a bit kinky now, isn't it. What I really need is a small, chain-driven dynomometer so we can begin to get serious and bust us up some myths out there.
Yes, it is a bit kinky now, isn't it. What I really need is a small, chain-driven dynomometer so we can begin to get serious and bust us up some myths out there.
Did you not yet read the referenced articles?
Lubrication Tests:
http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/JMDEDB-ft/vol_123/iss_4/598_1.html#div8.2
Discussion & Conclusions: (3rd Para talks to lubricants)
http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/JMDEDB-ft/vol_123/iss_4/598_1.html#div9
Bottom Line: A clean and well-lubricated chain drive system -- whether you use chain saw lube (Jobst Brandt's favorite), $5/oz superlube, or wax -- is very efficient and it really doesn't matter what you use as a lubricant so long as it meets your expectations for ease of application, durability, and servicabilty. If dirt and grime get into the rollers and rivets, or if the lubricant is too viscious for the temperatures the bike will be used in (paraffin & 30* temps don't mix) efficiency begins to falls off.
Did you not yet read the referenced articles?
Lubrication Tests:
http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/JMDEDB-ft/vol_123/iss_4/598_1.html#div8.2
Discussion & Conclusions: (3rd Para talks to lubricants)
http://scitation.aip.org/journals/doc/JMDEDB-ft/vol_123/iss_4/598_1.html#div9
Bottom Line: A clean and well-lubricated chain drive system -- whether you use chain saw lube (Jobst Brandt's favorite), $5/oz superlube, or wax -- is very efficient and it really doesn't matter what you use as a lubricant so long as it meets your expectations for ease of application, durability, and servicabilty. If dirt and grime get into the rollers and rivets, or if the lubricant is too viscious for the temperatures the bike will be used in (paraffin & 30* temps don't mix) efficiency begins to falls off.
Tryin to register with them, chief, so I can access the articles.
The simplistic rolling resistance tests done by the motorcycle dude doesn't support this conclusion. An observed 3Hp penalty in power transmission on, say 20 - 30 BHp of engine power is a significant loss of power due to a chain lubricant. But I'll wait to see their data on bicycle chains. If this is true, then the issue is moot.
Tryin to register with them, chief, so I can access the articles.
Send me a PM with your Email address and I'll send you the report.
Effects of Frictional Loss on Bicycle Chain Drive Efficiency
Journal of Mechanical Design DECEMBER 2001, Vol. 123
These were the pertinent comments on lubrication:
Lubrication: In this phase of the study, the chain was thoroughly
degreased/cleaned using commercially available degreasing
agents and was relubricated using one of three commercially
available lubricants: Lubricant 1 ~Castrol Wrench Force Dry
Lube!; Lubricant 2 ~Pedro’s Syn Lube! or Lubricant 3 ~Generation
4 White Lightning!. After lubrication, the chain was mounted on
the test sand and the efficiency of the drive was measured. Since
Lubricant 3 had been used in other sections of this study, this
re-test was completed for a reduced set of drive conditions.
The results in both Tables 4 and 5 indicate that the previous
trends for efficiency as a function of configuration and as a function
of chain tension are still followed. However, these results also
indicate that the actual lubricant used has little effect on the overall
performance of the drive under laboratory conditions given the
precision of the measurement.
Table 4 Efficiencies for Different Drive Rotation Rates and
Sprocket configurations „input power 100 W…
Table 5 Efficiencies for Different Drive Powers and Sprocket
Configurations „input rotation rate 60 RPM…
The most notable aspect of these efficiency data is that all values
are approximately 1.5 to 2% lower than the corresponding
values in Tables 2 and 3. This drop in efficiency could have resulted
from wear in the chain. The chain was removed from the
test stand and was measured to have lengthened by ;3 mm over
its 52 link length ~104 half links!.
Discussion and Conclusions: It was found that chain line offset and chain lubrication have a
negligible effect on efficiency under laboratory conditions. Calculations
of frictional loss resulting from offset indicate that this loss
should be small compared to those produced by other mechanisms.
Lubrication effects on chain efficiency were tested using
three different chain lubricants under a variety of test configurations.
No significant quantifiable effect of lubrication could be
inferred from these tests.
Study participants:
The Johns Hopkins University
James B. Spicer, Associate Professor & Mem. ASME
Christopher J. K. Richardson
Michael J. Ehrlich
Johanna R. Bernstein
Shimano Inc., Product Engineering Division
Masahiko Fukuda
Masao Terada
I'm sure there's some differences that could be measured in a lab setting. BUt for us, riding for recreational pusposes, I don't think there'd be much practical variance. I applaud those of you who're using the family frier to apply hot wax. Not to sound like yer Mom, but I do safety for a living: please be careful!!! Fire and injury risks!!!!!! Fume breathing.... lots of interesting data recently on the emissions of candles. I use White Lightening in the winter, Finish Line dry in the summer. Get good mileage out of my chains, but I do consider them to be wear parts and replace pretty much annually: 7,000+ miles.
Effects of Frictional Loss on Bicycle Chain Drive Efficiency
Journal of Mechanical Design DECEMBER 2001, Vol. 123
There it is boys and girls! The Geekster has done it! From now on, when some knob like me brings up chain lubing again, we can reference this piece and tell them that it really doesn't matter. It's like toilet paper: if you like it, use it.
[Hmmmm.... but they didn't test parafin wax mixes..........]
Not to sound like yer Mom, but I do safety for a living: please be careful!!! Fire and injury risks!!!!!! Fume breathing.... lots of interesting data recently on the emissions of candles.
That's not the worst part. Using Mom's utensils, pans, stove, and counter space for wax and then, inevitably, leaving behind a mere trace (a scosh -- nanograms) of the stuff in the kitchen, is guaranteed to cause marital strife. That's why I was banned to my Coleman stove and personal bike waxing gear in the garage years ago. (She thinks the fire dept. will put the blaze out before it gets to the house, heh, heh.)
But it's worth it. What she doesn't know is that a waxed chain is a chick magnet. When you look about as appealing as a yellow porta potty in spandex, a gleaming, waxed chain at the rally will get admiring glances from the biker chicks every time!
Ride on!
The simplistic rolling resistance tests done by the motorcycle dude doesn't support this conclusion. An observed 3Hp penalty in power transmission on, say 20 - 30 BHp of engine power is a significant loss of power due to a chain lubricant. But I'll wait to see their data on bicycle chains. If this is true, then the issue is moot.
Perhaps you also ride motorcycles making this superfluous... and again, I haven't read MCN's report so I'm not exactly sure how they quantified chain lube's impact on net HP reduction, either at the crank or the rear wheel, but for what it's worth....
Keep in mind:
1. A motorcycle chain used on a liter-class sportbike or touring motorcycle weighs about 4.5lbs - 5.0lbs, whereas your typical bicycle chain weighs about .6lbs.
2. Lubricants applied to an O-Ring motorcycle chain are used to keep the O-ring seals from drying out and to prevent corrosion on the external chain parts, they do not penetrate the O-rings to provide lubrication between the pins and rollers: that function is provided by the factory lubricants sealed-in by the O-rings.
3. The impact on horsepower is hard to understand without knowing more about the test protocol, but the most useful measurement would have been net change in rear wheel horsepower (RWHP) measured on a dyno... not "spin-down" tests. Note:A dirty, unlubed motorcycle chain can easily rob 1% - 2% in RWHP when measured on a dyno.
Tieing this back to a bicycle chain: Any net difference in added drag between the lubricants used on a motorcycle would probably have similar net change in drag on a bicycle chain... however, once you scale down the mass and surface areas involved, the effects become less significant. Moreover, while you can use motorcycle lubes on a bicycle -- as well as gear lube, motor oil or even chainsaw lube -- to get fantastic lubricating qualities and longer chain life, they all generate more drag than the bicycle-specific "lightweight" lubricants. So, if you now scale the differences down to the very minor variations in viscosity between typical bicycle lubes (wet, dry, or otherwise), the differences in drag from freshly applied bicycle lube A, B, or C become negligible. What becomes more important is how long they can resist contamination... as it's the dirt, grime, and moisture that cling to chain lubricants and break down their chemistry and motility that ultimately determine how well they will continue to work in a given riding environment.
I applaud those of you who're using the family frier to apply hot wax. Not to sound like yer Mom, but I do safety for a living: please be careful!!! Fire and injury risks!!!!!! Fume breathing.... lots of interesting data recently on the emissions of candles.
A worthwhile caution...
Hot wax is both flamable and "explosive" when cold metals or, worse yet, water is introduced to it. Consider if you will what happens when frozen french fries are immersed into a deep fryer: same thing. A wet chain, if immersed in a wax bath, will immediately send bits of hot wax flying many feet into free space that cling to everything they hit -- including your skin -- followed by immense frothing wax boil-over that will spill hot wax down the sides of the heating vessel and onto the heat source or surfaces under the vessel making for an awful and potentially dangerous mess if there is an open heat source or flame involved.
FWIW, a few years back I had the opportunity to buy the "Chain Wax" product rights and formulations, that little black can of paraffin wax (blue & white if bought though Performance Bike) that you were instructed to submerge into a pan of water, etc... It was the vision of home mechanics with 2nd degree burns, small kitchen fires, and strained marital relations that gave me pause before deciding not to take ownership of the product line. Hot melt chain waxing should really only be done outside the home in well ventilated spaces and without the use of an open flame, e.g., I put my small deep fryer (no flame or exposed heating elements) on the floor of the garage well away from the cars and everything else. The chains get piled on top of the cold, hardend wax mixture and then the deep fryer is turned on. The chains heat up with the wax... not dropped into hot molten wax... and are then removed after several minutes of "cooking" with a long wire hook and left laying flat to cool on newspaper.
Frankly, if I wasn't a geek or if I was really smart, I'd give up my old ways and move into the 21st Century and use nothing but the bicycle specific lubricants. They're really quite good and, to be honest, if you make a point of lubing your chains after a ride and then wiping down the exterior surfaces of your chains before your next ride, they'll keep your drivetrain a lot cleaner and have no ill effect on the performance of your lubrication; remember, the lubricant you're concerned about is hidden from view between the rivets and rollers. Even with paraffin wax, you still get surface crud that must be wiped off every couple of rides if you want to mitigate crud build-up on your chain rings and cogs.
Perhaps you also ride motorcycles making this superfluous... and again, I haven't read MCN's test protocol so I'm not exactly sure how they quantified chain lube's impact on net HP reduction, either at the crank or the rear wheel, but for what it's worth...
You so elegantly put into words what I suspected all along, but needed hard data to prove. When I ran into that moto chain article, I was a bit nonplussed. The hills are not getting any easier to charge up anymore and I don't need any "lubricants" holding me back. Quite the opposite --the older I get, the more I need "lubricants" to help, not hinder.
So now I can sleep like a baby, again, ......maybe -- until I dream up some other troubling biking thing. Is there a psychiatric name for what it is we do on this blog???
Just don't forget what's in the deepfryer. Curley Fries cooked in paraffin may not taste very good.
Just don't forget what's in the deepfryer. Curley Fries cooked in paraffin may not taste very good.
There's only one Fry Daddy Jr. in our household: It sits in the garage and was specifically bought for cookin' bicycle chains...
http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/36/28/Presto_Fry_Daddy_Junior_05422_Small_Appliances1-resized200.jpg
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/601-7289853-9398540?_encoding=UTF8&frombrowse=1&asin=B000063SML
Fryer fire video http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2684258?htv=12. Click on the green watch button and set your preferences.
Ok, Ok. I can't stop myself from making another stupid post. Given that I have 6 multi speed bikes (including my Duet) which just get used (like the 10 miles I just rode into work) what is so wrong with using 3-1 oil with a simple wipe down after application? Works for me! But then again, I am not riding $1,000 or even $500+ bikes. I only have one SRam link'ed bike in the bunch so 'on bike lubrication' is the easy way to go. I have an expensive bottle of the 'dry lube' and sure it works great from an audiable standpoint. But one shop gave it two thumbs down. "Nothing can do the job of real oil" he said.
I'll take cover now :D
dude, I like my chain medium rare.
what is so wrong with using 3-1 oil with a simple wipe down after application?
If you're happy with the results, then it's OK. The issue with 3-in-1 oil as a bicycle lubricant is that it's vegetable-based and, as such, tends to gum-up and collect grime... far more so than petroleum-based or synthetic oils. WD-40 is another one of those products that "seems" like a good lubrication but it's really not, unless you apply the stuff every day.
"Nothing can do the job of real oil" he said.
Wet lubes like Motor oil, gear lube, Phil Wood Tenacious oil and other moderately viscous oils are probably the "best" lubricants when it comes to long-term reduction of friction. They penetrate well and they're sticky enough to bond to the rivets and rollers and resist moisture well. However, they also collect dirt and grime quite well which is why folks continue to search for alternative lubricants that afford "good" lubricating properties that don't attract grime. Off-road biking is where most of the modern impetus came from for the current dry-lube formulations like "ice wax", "white lightning", "Boeshield T9" and the like. Old farts and geeks like me who use wax as a lube -- the original alternative to wet lubes -- tend to value "cleanliness" over longevity and ease of maintenance (heck, I even clay-bar our cars once a year before buffing out all the paint defects). As already noted, this is what I use on our 'nice bikes' that get doted on. The daily riders and off-road bikes get lubed with products like Boeshield T9 or Pedros Ice Wax (whatever I find on sale or get as swag), sometimes over old lube (road bike chains) or after a quick slosh in the parts cleaner and a rinse (grimey-road or dirt-encrusted off-road chains).
Bottom Line: Every lube has its good traits and bad, none are really awful but none are perfect either. Pick the one that works well for you and stick with it until it doesn't.
dude, I like my chain medium rare.
:lol:
I sense a nonbeliever here, TG. What do you think?
Well, I’m not going to get sucked in, that’s all there is to it. I could, but I won’t. I could relate how a truly beautiful woman got me started on chain waxing many, many years ago because she threatened to stop riding because of the inevitable swoosh of gritty grease that wound up on her gorgeous gams. I faced the loss of some of the best bike drafting I’ve ever known – all because of a greasy bicycle chain.
But I won’t go there because some people just aren’t gonna get it. Anyway, this guy probably rides with people who have the fortitude to accept grease and road grit as a badge of honor. I admire these people immensely. They probably think nothing of orally siphoning some gas from the family getter to degrease after a ride and stop in for a few brews smelling like regular unleaded. Damned impressive.
Nah, I’m gonna take the higher road here………………….
I sense a nonbeliever here, TG. What do you think?
Pragmatic, serious cyclist who probably makes better use of his discretionary time for training or other pursuits.
LOL ElRey.
I get it rjbrenner. I would probably have done the same thing. Although my other brain would be telling me that if it's like this for bike grease, you don't want to endure the unknown other particulars :).
You guys have it bad. I don't think I've met anyone who would buy a deep fat fryer to do their chain!!!
I think I've been through a similar process - tried 3 in 1, GT85 and other spray lubes. They don't work in the rain. Used the Finish Line red and green (dry and wet respectively) on my race bike - too much faffing and re-lubing. Made some home brew for my winter bike (50% Castrol water resistant grease + 50% cheap engine oil), which worked well for the winter but made a horrible mess. Now I use white lightening which I am very impressed with because it ticks all the boxes in my list; it doesn't need to be re-lubed often, doesn't wash off, isn't very dirty and is probably quite friction free.
The other side of lubeing the chain is how to clean it. There again there are many methods, ranging from not doing it at all, through to dentist-style toothbrushing every link with an electric toothbrush. Best tool, which I have to recommend very highly is the Park chain cleaner. Although it's really expensive for a few bits of plastic, it's so much better than anything else available that everyone should have one.
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