Road Bike Racing - Today's TT-Giro spoiler

Der Jan dominates the field!

Lots of people look like they lost a LOT of time.

Finish - km 50

1 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile 58.48
2 Ivan Basso (Ita) CSC 0.27
3 Marco Pinotti (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 1.01
4 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile 1.09
5 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel 1.19
6 Jose E. Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak 1.42
7 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 2.12
8 Gustav Erik Larsson (Swe) Française des Jeux 2.22
9 Dario David Cioni (Ita) Liquigas 2.24
10 Viatcheslav Ekimov (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.27
11 Tom Danielson (USA) Discovery Channel 2.35
12 Stef Clement (Ned) Bouygues Telecom 2.40

Well if Rojano is going to win this thing he is going to need better than 9 min in the mountains now...ouch.

Man Ivan is totally controlling this race. All he needs to do is keep his rivals close and it's over! There isn't a climber even close to him now, Simonni, Cunego, Di Luca are done. Jan is definately TT'n well, the real test of his fitness will be in mountains.

Well if Rojano is going to win this thing he is going to need better than 9 min in the mountains now...ouch.


Yeah, I think Basso has this pretty well wrapped up, barring catastrophe.
He opened up some HUGE gaps today. Tom Danielson is pretty far out now too.

General classification after stage 11

1 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 40.28.56
2 José E. Gutierrez Cataluna (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.48
3 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile Team 3.24
4 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 3.26
5 Tom Danielson (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 5.38
6 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas 6.37
7 Victor Hugo Pena Grisales (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 6.54
8 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Fondital
9 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 7.13
10 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas 7.33
...
14 José Rujano Guillen (Ven) Selle Italia-Serramenti Diquigiovanni 9.19

Danielson made up some time today, but not enough.
Basso seems to be the real deal.
While Der Jan's TT prowess is undeniable it won't get him the win
at the Tour in July, not if Basso is riding like he is now, Jan won't
be able to make up the time that Basso will put into him in the mountains.

But. . . it's gonna be a wonderful summer following a spectacular spring.

marty

edit. forgot, Kudo's to Ulle, very impressive ride.

Yep. Sucks to be the Jan. Guys fat and washed up. Damn.

Yep. Sucks to be the Jan. Guys fat and washed up. Damn.

he did um, ...WIN.

He's 1 min+ over the field, the problem for him is that Basso has evolved into a TT rider, and he's the best climber right now.

Ullrich needs to go to CSC-Riis could revive him.

he did um, ...WIN.


Yes, I knew that.

Yep. Sucks to be the Jan. Guys fat and washed up. Damn.

WTF are you talking about?? I am sick and tired of people calling Jan fat and washed up. First off, he came int othe spring in pretty good shape... outstanding shape for Jan. He can't really help that he got sick and then had a knee injury. He's riding the Giro to train for the Tour... not to win the Giro. If Jan stays healthy.... he is going to be a serious force in this year's Tour. Remember... there aren't many serious summit finishes this year... the rest of the mountains stages are jokes. Also, there is and extra ITT that Jan can lay the law down on. Seriously, if he put almost 30 seconds into Basso today... and he's "fat and washed up".... Ivan better watch out in July when Jan is on form.

I hope Ivan pulls the Giro out this year... but lets not forget that he was in a similar situation last year. Then he got sick and lost it all....

The guys at cyclingnews.com said that the wind came up after Der Kaiser had that great ride. Basso does look like the eventual winner, baring any problems like last year. His team will have to be superb in support for the rest of the Giro. I wonder how much that will take out of them and make it harder to support Ivan for the TdF? Any thoughts?

WTF are you talking about?? I am sick and tired of people calling Jan fat and washed up. First off, he came int othe spring in pretty good shape... outstanding shape for Jan. He can't really help that he got sick and then had a knee injury. He's riding the Giro to train for the Tour... not to win the Giro. If Jan stays healthy.... he is going to be a serious force in this year's Tour. Remember... there aren't many serious summit finishes this year... the rest of the mountains stages are jokes. Also, there is and extra ITT that Jan can lay the law down on. Seriously, if he put almost 30 seconds into Basso today... and he's "fat and washed up".... Ivan better watch out in July when Jan is on form.

I hope Ivan pulls the Giro out this year... but lets not forget that he was in a similar situation last year. Then he got sick and lost it all....
I think he was being sarcastic. At least I took it that way. I laughed. Old, fat, washed up guys generally don't win TTs.

Yep. Sucks to be the Jan. Guys fat and washed up. Damn.


For me the criticism of Jan isn't about his being washed up but the seeming lack of professionalism that he seem to exhibit year after year. He abundantly talented, that's obvious, which makes it hard for us mere mortals when he shows up at less than peak form. I fear that this year will again be Jan showing up to the TdF at less than perfect form and he'll have to deal with a perfectly drilled CSC team and an on form Ivan Basso. Not to mention Floyd, Diso (and their many threats), Levi, Valverde etc etc. I have a hard time believing that Jan is going to be able to put enough time on his rivals (Basso especially) in just the TT's.

WTF are you talking about?? I am sick and tired of people calling Jan fat and washed up.....

I think someone missed the sarcasm that was dripping from the post.

Jan rode a very impressive TT, but he's like 18 minutes back. I don't think he has been pushing the other stages to the extent he would be if he were going for the GC. That leaves a big question in my mind: can he ride hard on the other stages and STILL take 30 seconds out of Basso in a TT? I'm betting no. He may still take time out of him, but I don't think its going to be much. Don't get me wrong, I think the Jan/Basso TDF battle will be pretty close. I just hope Basso wins.

I think someone missed the sarcasm that was dripping from the post.

Jan rode a very impressive TT, but he's like 18 minutes back. I don't think he has been pushing the other stages to the extent he would be if he were going for the GC. That leaves a big question in my mind: can he ride hard on the other stages and STILL take 30 seconds out of Basso in a TT? I'm betting no. He may still take time out of him, but I don't think its going to be much. Don't get me wrong, I think the Jan/Basso TDF battle will be pretty close. I just hope Basso wins.


Yea.... sorry I jumped on that one. It's more out of frustration from people constantly saying Jan sucks and that he's fat. Sure... he may like the beer and brats more than your typical rider :) But he's still my special boy!

For those of you who did not recognize the sarcasm in Laggard's "Sucks to be the Jan. Guys fat and washed up" post, you might want to have your sense of humor checked out. How blatant does it have to be to not require an emoticon?

Yea.... sorry I jumped on that one. It's more out of frustration from people constantly saying Jan sucks and that he's fat. Sure... he may like the beer and brats more than your typical rider :) But he's still my special boy!
And that was exactly Laggard's point!

For me the criticism of Jan isn't about his being washed up but the seeming lack of professionalism that he seem to exhibit year after year.

I don't agree that he lacks professionalism. He's just hasn't had any luck since his '97 win and Lance mucked up his career :p.

I think its a great sign for Jan that he won this TT. Still it will be tough to beat Basso, unless Basso kills himself to win this Giro. Many criticized him trying for both. It will be a great July! Oh and don't forget the others.

As for the Giro, Basso has this one in the bag, baby! Barring any major issues.

I got the sarcasm, that's why I replied the way that I did. I don't believe that my criticism of Jan is based on his being washed up, fat yes, washed up no! ;)

He is still rocking the pastry paunch though --- that or this is just an unflattering photo. Good TT today in any event... hope he gives good competition in the Tour.

http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9890.14795.f.jpg

Yea.... sorry I jumped on that one. It's more out of frustration from people constantly saying Jan sucks and that he's fat. Sure... he may like the beer and brats more than your typical rider :) But he's still my special boy!

Exactly!!! :D

I don't agree that he lacks professionalism. He's just hasn't had any luck since his '97 win and Lance mucked up his career :p.+1. Lack of professionalism just doesn't get you the glittering palmares Jan has.

He is still rocking the pastry paunch though --- that or this is just an unflattering photo. Good TT today in any event... hope he gives good competition in the Tour.

http://www.velonews.com/images/int/9890.14795.f.jpg

Belly breathing. not a paunch.

marty

+1. Lack of professionalism just doesn't get you the glittering palmares Jan has.


I think you have to look at Jan in the same way you would look at a Michael Jordan or other very gifted athlete. If MJ had showed up to a game during his prime, overweight and under trained you'd look at him and think he's wasting his talent. I look at Jan that same way. Jan is paid an enormous amount of money by T-Mobile to do one thing, win the TdF. Yes he's had to go up against a great Tour rider in Lance Armstrong, however even Jan's former DS says that if Jan had the professionalism of LA he'd have won a lot more TdF's. We are left to wonder what could have been. His palmares are a testimony to his unbelievable talent, to come in second in the TdF is no small feat and to do it when he was arguably in less than perfect shape is even more incredible.

How many tough mountain stages are left in the Giro? Sometimes a lead of five minutes, or even eight minutes, can disappear on just one brutal climb up a mountain.

There will still be some very interesting days before the Giro is over. The fat lady may be warming up somewhere, but I don't hear her voice yet.

How many tough mountain stages are left in the Giro? Sometimes a lead of five minutes, or even eight minutes, can disappear on just one brutal climb up a mountain.

Sure, just like last year, he's just one stomach bug away from losing the Giro.

Check out the bulge behind his right knee. He's got muscles where I've got dead space.

How many tough mountain stages are left in the Giro? Sometimes a lead of five minutes, or even eight minutes, can disappear on just one brutal climb up a mountain.

Good riders get dropped all the time. However, I just don't see Ivan Basso being the one that gets dropped - he'll be the guy doing the dropping. I think he is in a really good position to win but it isn't over by any means. In fact, one bad day or even just a few mediocre days in the mountains for Basso and he could be out of contention. That being said, if I was putting money on the Giro, I'd still put it on Basso.

How many tough mountain stages are left in the Giro? Sometimes a lead of five minutes, or even eight minutes, can disappear on just one brutal climb up a mountain.
That's a good point. Next week is absolutely brutal. But, then, Basso is not the only one likely to have one bad day. The others are as well. For Salvodelli to win, for example, he would have to have no bad days, limit his losses on as many as he can, and take huge advantage on some day when Basso has a bad one. For the others, it's even tougher.

But to answer your question, there are 6 mountain stages left:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile13.jpg
Stage 13 Saturday May 20

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile14.jpg
Stage 14 Sunday May 21

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile16.jpg
Stage 16 Tuesday May 23

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile17.jpg
Stage 17 Wednesday May 24

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile19.jpg
Stage 19 Friday May 26

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile20.jpg
Stage 20 Saturday May 27

You know I like Jan as a racer; he seems to be a real powerhouse. But, I will be happy when he retires so there will be no more "Jan is fat" discussions on this forum, the internet, or anywhere in the world except Jan's kitchen.

Check out the bulge behind his right knee. He's got muscles where I've got dead space.

Yeah..right..muscles...

he did um, ...WIN.

He's 1 min+ over the field, the problem for him is that Basso has evolved into a TT rider, and he's the best climber right now.

Ullrich needs to go to CSC-Riis could revive him.

Ullrich has demonstrated an unbelievable ability to suffer...even when many would give up hope.
He almost always finishes long tours stronger
I believe he holds either the #2 or 3 time for climbing Alpe' du Huez...something like 4-6 seconds behind LA's record, yet people don't consider him a climber?????
He seems to have a strong team riding for him and him only for the first time ever
This years TDF is a very balanced tour...climbing/TT

I think the world of Ivan, and am sure he will become a great champion in many ways

I think the world of Ullrich, and he IS a great champion in many ways

The end of this Giro may just get Jan where he wants to be
" " Ivan past where he wants to be...time will tell

You know I like Jan as a racer; he seems to be a real powerhouse. But, I will be happy when he retires so there will be no more "Jan is fat" discussions on this forum, the internet, or anywhere in the world except Jan's kitchen.
Yea sure...people said that about the Armstrong retirement as well...but people still post about him, his past races and what he is doing now...I bet there will be a time after Jan is gone that people post about what could have been if it were not for Lance and strudle.

For me the criticism of Jan isn't about his being washed up but the seeming lack of professionalism that he seem to exhibit year after year. He abundantly talented, that's obvious, which makes it hard for us mere mortals when he shows up at less than peak form. I fear that this year will again be Jan showing up to the TdF at less than perfect form and he'll have to deal with a perfectly drilled CSC team and an on form Ivan Basso. Not to mention Floyd, Diso (and their many threats), Levi, Valverde etc etc. I have a hard time believing that Jan is going to be able to put enough time on his rivals (Basso especially) in just the TT's.

I actually like that about Ullrich, he's still in the top three-four riders of the world without the without the ridiculous tech goon squad that Armstrong had, and all those doping specialists, who doped everyone they consulted to, except Lance.
He's still better than most, but CSC had the B-team at the giro this years for the TTT, they still have Cancellara and Zabriskie in the hole. Discovery has been dissappointing, and many in Europe have been unimpressed with Danielson so far.
It's looking like Landis, Basso, Vinokourov (who is the real dark horse in 06), maybe Leipheimer, but one thing is for sure, the next few days in Italy and July in France are going to be the most exciting racing in a decade.

Yea sure...people said that about the Armstrong retirement as well...but people still post about him, his past races and what he is doing now...I bet there will be a time after Jan is gone that people post about what could have been if it were not for Lance and strudle.
Sadly, you are correct.

That's a good point. Next week is absolutely brutal. But, then, Basso is not the only one likely to have one bad day. The others are as well. For Salvodelli to win, for example, he would have to have no bad days, limit his losses on as many as he can, and take huge advantage on some day when Basso has a bad one. For the others, it's even tougher.

...there are 6 mountain stages left:



Well, you have laid out HOW to do it. Salvodelli must pick one or two of those tough mountain stages, and attempt to just crush Basso. Four of the remaining stages look tough enough to break even a strong climber. If Basso accepts the challenge and the two of them push it to the ultimate limit, one of them, or even both, could break, and lose a bunch of time.

The question is, does Salvodelli have the "heart" to push Basso to the limit? He could play it safe, and ride for second place. Or, go all out, and ride to win. But, if he rides all out, and fails, he might not even finish the Giro.

From a fan's point of view, the answer is easy: go for it. I'm not sure the folks who run the Discover team necessary share that viewpoint. They may be happy to settle for second place. Hope not.

and all those doping specialists, who doped everyone they consulted to, except Lance.
.

Yeah Jan is lucky to come from the East German sports system. They always made sure their athletes competed clean ;)

I agree the next 3 months are going to be some of the most exciting cycling we've seen in quite some time.

Well, you have laid out HOW to do it. Salvodelli must pick one or two of those tough mountain stages, and attempt to just crush Basso. Four of the remaining stages look tough enough to break even a strong climber. If Basso accepts the challenge and the two of them push it to the ultimate limit, one of them, or even both, could break, and lose a bunch of time.

The question is, does Salvodelli have the "heart" to push Basso to the limit? He could play it safe, and ride for second place. Or, go all out, and ride to win. But, if he rides all out, and fails, he might not even finish the Giro.

From a fan's point of view, the answer is easy: go for it. I'm not sure the folks who run the Discover team necessary share that viewpoint. They may be happy to settle for second place. Hope not.
I think they know pretty how much riding in the red Paulo can handle and still make it to the end of the Giro. I would hope they're monitoring that very closely, and hoping that's good enough to not only get him on the podium, but even to beat Basso. I can't imagine that they're holding back or doing anything other than trying to figure out how to maximize his performance, whether that gets him 1st, 2nd, 3rd or whatever.

Having said that... Basso and Ullrich seem to have that rare "champion ability" to get stronger as the race goes on, while everyone else, including Salvodelli, is just trying to hang on. That Basso beat Salvodelli in the TT today is pretty devastating to Disco.

That's a good point. Next week is absolutely brutal. But, then, Basso is not the only one likely to have one bad day. The others are as well. For Salvodelli to win, for example, he would have to have no bad days, limit his losses on as many as he can, and take huge advantage on some day when Basso has a bad one. For the others, it's even tougher.

But to answer your question, there are 6 mountain stages left:

One would have to be in serious denial to say that things don't looks good for Basso. Of the 6 mountain stages left, only stage 14 appears to be one that might be better suited for Savoldelli (note proper spelling :)).

That said, it is one long, tough grind from here on - with no more rest days. Tenacity and endurance may be the deciding character traits in this tour.

...but CSC had the B-team at the giro this years for the TTT, they still have Cancellara and Zabriskie in the hole. Discovery has been dissappointing...

Disco are without Hincapie & Popovich, which would make a fair difference in the TTT [not saying that would put them ahead of CSC, with Cancellara and Zabriskie (and Schleck - who's probably also in their top 9), but it would have been enough to make a significant difference - of course we won't get to see how they stack up head to head in the TDF this year] yet, at least for the moment hold the team lead and comfortably own the blue Jersey. While Savoldelli isn't as close in contention as many had hoped on GC, and he hasn't had multiple helpers on mountain stages, I wouldn't say the results have been disappointing.

Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'm pretty psyched with how well Danielson is doing at the Giro. He's certainly not a sprinter and he's never been known for his TT abilities and yet he's in the top 5 with a number of stages that favor his skillset (climbing) left to go.

Will he win? Um, no. He won't win. But, frankly, I'd be pretty psyched if he finished in the top 10 especially given his role (and rightfully so) of supporting Savoldelli.

The other exciting thing is that he's still close enough to Basso time-wise that if Disco sends him on the attack on one of the tough mountains the peleton will have to follow him and he'll get the chance to see if he's the climber we've been hoping he'd be. Win or lose, that would be really fun to watch.

NOTE: I'm going to discount Danielson's apparent inability to lose Landis during the climb during Tour of Georgia as bad team tactics. It was obvious that Discovery thought that the best way to beat Landis was acceleration rather than an all out full-climb blitz. It didn't work and I think Danielson had a lot left in the tank at the end of that climb. But I could be wrong.

--Steve

The other exciting thing is that he's still close enough to Basso time-wise that if Disco sends him on the attack on one of the tough mountains the peleton will have to follow him and he'll get the chance to see if he's the climber we've been hoping he'd be. Win or lose, that would be really fun to watch.
Yes. This would be very cool.

Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'm pretty psyched with how well Danielson is doing at the Giro. He's certainly not a sprinter and he's never been known for his TT abilities and yet he's in the top 5 with a number of stages that favor his skillset (climbing) left to go.

Will he win? Um, no. He won't win. But, frankly, I'd be pretty psyched if he finished in the top 10 especially given his role (and rightfully so) of supporting Savoldelli.

The other exciting thing is that he's still close enough to Basso time-wise that if Disco sends him on the attack on one of the tough mountains the peleton will have to follow him and he'll get the chance to see if he's the climber we've been hoping he'd be. Win or lose, that would be really fun to watch.

NOTE: I'm going to discount Danielson's apparent inability to lose Landis during the climb during Tour of Georgia as bad team tactics. It was obvious that Discovery thought that the best way to beat Landis was acceleration rather than an all out full-climb blitz. It didn't work and I think Danielson had a lot left in the tank at the end of that climb. But I could be wrong.

--Steve

Excellent analysis. Having 2 discos in the top 5 means this ain't over till the fat lady (or Jan fat man) sings. Another point is Danielson may be stronger from here on due to Paulo's difficulty breathing from allergies he said he's experiencing. I'd love to see either attack and CSC give chase in the mountains. I don't see either winning, but you never know. I predict a podium spot for one of them. Last year was the 1 in 100 chance Basso getting sick, and could happen again. Guitterez is a big surprise, I wonder if he can hold it together in the mountains.

For those of you who did not recognize the sarcasm in Laggard's "Sucks to be the Jan. Guys fat and washed up" post, you might want to have your sense of humor checked out. How blatant does it have to be to not require an emoticon?

Do you really think an emoticon would be enough? Come to think of it even adding something like (sarcasm) in the post probably won't work. Perhaps putting (sarcasm*) in hte post with a definition at teh bottom would be enough, but I'll bet it would offend people.

Sad.

. Of the 6 mountain stages left, only stage 14 appears to be one that might be better suited for Savoldelli (note proper spelling :)).
:D

Perhaps I'm the only one, but I'm pretty psyched with how well Danielson is doing at the Giro. He's certainly not a sprinter and he's never been known for his TT abilities and yet he's in the top 5 with a number of stages that favor his skillset (climbing) left to go.

Will he win? Um, no. He won't win. But, frankly, I'd be pretty psyched if he finished in the top 10 especially given his role (and rightfully so) of supporting Savoldelli.

The other exciting thing is that he's still close enough to Basso time-wise that if Disco sends him on the attack on one of the tough mountains the peleton will have to follow him and he'll get the chance to see if he's the climber we've been hoping he'd be. Win or lose, that would be really fun to watch.

NOTE: I'm going to discount Danielson's apparent inability to lose Landis during the climb during Tour of Georgia as bad team tactics. It was obvious that Discovery thought that the best way to beat Landis was acceleration rather than an all out full-climb blitz. It didn't work and I think Danielson had a lot left in the tank at the end of that climb. But I could be wrong.

--Steve

Yeah, Danielson has suprised me as well. I think he will do very well (top 5???) if he is as good a climber as people say.

Question: do you guys think there is a chance that Disco may eventually decide he is the best hope at a podium spot win and then make Savoldelli work for TD? Just about the only way I see that happening is if Savoldelli has a really bad day before TD has one. Before everyone says "no way" remember that Discovery is still looking for the heir to Lance.

Well, you have laid out HOW to do it. Salvodelli must pick one or two of those tough mountain stages, and attempt to just crush Basso.

Savoldelli cannot out-climb Basso, he's never been that good. His forte is descent skills, and there's only stage 14 for that-otherwise, they all end on climbs, and he's screwed.

Danielson made up some time today, but not enough.



Am I missing something? It looks like everyone ahead of Danielson in the GC was ahead of him in the TT.

Yeah Jan is lucky to come from the East German sports system. They always made sure their athletes competed clean ;)



As my Dad always says, three things you an believe in: the Easter bunny, Santa Claus, and Pro riders who don't dope.

Am I missing something? It looks like everyone ahead of Danielson in the GC was ahead of him in the TT.
at the end of stage 10 Danielson was sitting in 10th place.
after todays stage he is sitting in 5th place for GC.
Cunego, Pellizotti, Savoldelli, Di Luca, Simoni, and Caruso were all ahead of Danielson going
into todays TT stage.

Yes, moved up places, but he did not make up time. He lost time.