Touring - Adapting Co-Motion Americano to Mountain Touring

I would like to know if it is feasible to convert my Americano / BOB touring rig so that it will be better suited to the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Trail. I have been told by AC that the lack of front suspension would force me to walk too much.

I have drop bars and STI shifters, but I have mountain gearing and Avid mechanical disk brakes. When I remove my 50mm SKS fenders, I can accommodate 1.85 inch 29er WTB Mutanoraptors on my Velocity Dyad rims.

I am 6'2" and 170 lbs and (on trails) would have a conservative, non-aggressive riding style.

The bike currently has a Cro-moly steel fork that handles shallow potholes nicely, but I can imagine that after 2500 miles of dirt roads I will not have many elbow, wrist and shoulder ligaments left.

Would a 29er front suspension fork be feasible? What will be the tradeoffs? Weight for sure. Which brand would be the most reliable. What sort of travel? 80mm? 100? Am I nuts for trying to wring out the most utility from my very expensive touring bike? Am I being too cheap for not shelling out for a hardtail?

Please let me know what you think.....

Anybody? I'm serious about this question. Please help.....

I think that is a really nice bike and you could probably buy something suitable to do the trail you are proposing for less than the damage you might do to the bike you own. I know your americano is built super rugged to tandem standard, though that may not be an advantage here. I suppose the worst you can really do is wack up your wheels a little, which isn't such a big deal. I do remember a time when we had MTBs but very little in the way of front end suspension, in fact I have never owned an MTB that did have it.

Maybe the Powerstem would help?

http://www.softride.com/product.asp?p=46

I don't know, why not ask Coomotion what they think? They are more likely to have a clue about the ride qualities of this bike in that environment. I would be more worried about it not proving a sufficiently efficient offroad tractor system for your BOB.

Co-Motion won't recommend anything creative that will potentially adversely affect the functionality / safety of their bikes. That tendency is understandable as they don't want to be sued. They even deny knowledge of whether >37mm tires will fit.

Several months ago I asked Co-Motion about suspension forks and the Softride Powerstem. Their answer was predictably not positive about either. They questioned whether they were necessary....

Peter, thank you for your response. This question is on the frontier of the knowable and I appreciate you venturing your opinion.

I am by no means an expert on boingers, but it is my understanding that suspension forks cannot replace rigid forks without significantly altering the geometry of the bike. Suspension forks have to be longer to allow for the motion. Replacing the rigid fork with a suspension fork would lift the front of the bike and change the trail, feel and handling, probably for the worse.

You can replace a suspension fork with rigid fork if the replacement is suspension corrected, but I don't know of any suspension forks that are "rigid corrected" to go the other way.

You can ask this question in the mechanics forum and probably get more answers and maybe some comments from people who have attempted this modification.

Who knows, maybe somebody has done it and didn't mind the results.

Your bike is perfect as it is except for changing to flat bars and maybe a suspension seatpost.

I rode the Divide in 2003 on a rigid Bruce Gordon RnR with panniers. My tires were Schwalbe Marathon XR 1.75 that fit my fenders and handled the terrain nicely. I altered tire pressure for the worst washboard and rocky sections. Float on soft sandy areas was a rare problem. I used a Thudbuster seat post which worked well for absorbing shock. I kept my equipment load light at under 20#. Most people I saw had overloaded their panniers or their BOB which caused equipment problems.

Guide books, ACA people and other Divide riders kept telling me that I had the wrong bike, wheel size and tire width plus I had no BOB and was too old at 60. Eventually I responded by saying that I was becoming religious out there since it was a miracle that I could ride the Divide at all! :rolleyes:

Ignore most of this negative advice as I did and just go ride the Divide. It is a hard but glorious experience! Herd animals want you to do things their way only.;)

Consider a suspension seatpost like the Thudbuster or a Brooks spring seat for some added comfort. At your weight you may not need this but I am not as light as you are at 225# for the same height and the seat post helped to smooth the way.

Have a safe journey and report back when you return.

Hey Cyclesafe, I have an Americano on order ( 56 cm. frame ) and I was wondering what would be the largest size tires you can use and still fit fenders ?

Thanks for the responses....

Co-Motion also mentioned that riding geometries would be messed up. Cyclocross doesn't use suspension...

Cyclocross also uses drops so I'm not sure that I would have to go to flat bars. I currently have STI shifters, so changing handlebar styles opens other cans of worms....

A Brooks sprung Conquest, B66, or Flyer is something that I am considering, as is the Thudbuster (so ugly though...)

I have a 60 cm frame and without fenders I can accommodate at (least in front) 29er Mutanoraptors. With the Americano fork, the issue becomes less tire width and more tire height. The SKS 50mm (the widest full coverage fender that I could find for 700c - available from Airbomb) touts that it can accommodate tires up to 45mm (obviously no mention of height), but the Americano front fork cannot handle both the fender and a tire of 47mm's (1.85 inch). In other words, the limiting factor is the fork, not the fender, since I would be able to live with 1mm "tire overlap" on either side of the fender. My guess is that even if the tire was 44mm and its height proportionally shorter, both the fender and tire still would not fit.

35mm Marathon XR's (37-622 - go figure) fit fine. I would hazzard to guess that the 40mm XR's (42-622) would still barely work with these fenders and the Americano fork - as long as you weren't anticipating much mud pickup. I went with the Mutanoraptors because I wanted a knobby tire for looser conditions and bought an SKS mudguard to try to keep my drivetrain clean. As I plan to use a 35mm XR on my rear wheel, I didn't test whether the Mutanoraptor would work there.

Arctos, thanks for the encouragement. The CGOAB picture galleries of the GD show much more gravel road than single track. I am inclined to follow your advice and go against the grain of conventional wisdom, but at the same time acknowledge that, given a cost-free choice, a hardtail would probably be an overall better alternative.

Didn't someone do this in a recumbant trike. I don't doubt you could do this on a walmart special. One has to sorta guess what the questioner really wants to do, and one can be way off track. Like you have the ultimate bike for touring onroad, and you are proposing the ultimate offroad ride. So one kinda wonders how much of a kludge are you willing to sign up for? If you like the idea or pushing this ride, as a challenge, or are you looking for an excuse to buy a new bike (doesn't sound like it).

There was a pretty encouraging review of the softride stem on Crazyguy. What I ran into with the seatposts is they need a lot of extension out of the frames to work. I got stuck on sizing and just didn't have the standover height given torso length to allow me to ride a soft post. But the stem was a definite possibility. In the end I found for the road touring I do the 37 MM tires were fine. However I had significant problems getting traction with 37mm tires in far milder conditons that the ones you are likely to encounter.

I would not consider the shock fork on the Coomotion. I guess I kinda was in denial on that paragraph. Halfspeed is always right to the point. I don't think that is a serious option. The easiest thing would be to try a little bit of test riding and see how it seem on some local trails. I keep pretty smooth tires on my touring bike, so maybe they are really capable offroad with better rubber.

When I attempted to slow down on a loose dirt downhill trail with my 35mm XR's (only a shallow tread, no knobs), I immediately locked my wheels and skidded into some bushes nearly impalling myself on a branch. This instigated my quest for some knobbies that would fit up front.

Perhaps no matter what I was riding, the trail would have been trouble for me. My next step is to test the Mutanoraptor at the same place. I'll also take another look at the Powerstem.

Saw your bike photo. Nice setup. I have been biased toward 29er bikes for offroad touring since 1989 when I ordered my BG RNR.

How is your front fender attached at the fork? To gain more height to handle the 700X47(1.75) XR's I used a bar end plug with a tightening screw inserted in the fork steerer tube. Tab mounted fenders did not work since they reduced the tire height clearance for me.

What tire pressures did you use with 37 XR when you skidded on the loose trail? The minimal tread of the XR worked well for me in all conditions provided that I reduced tire pressure enough to gain more traction.

Your drop bar position offroad may also contribute to skidding since it places more weight on the front tire just when you need to move weight rearward but cannot as you need to brake and/or shift the STI's. Bruce Gordon offers quick disconnect systems for trading from drop bars to flat bars. Bike Friday also uses such a system on their folders as well.
The vulnerability of an STI setup offroad concerns me as repair or replacement would be difficult and there is no friction shifting option as far as I know to get you to the next repair shop.

Hope some of this rambling is helpful to you in solving these problems.

Great points. Clearly, my weight needs to be back as far as possible on descents. As you said previously, I need to get out on the trail and find out what my limits are given the equipment that I have. If the drops and the STI's keep my weight too far forward, costwise I might as well stop modifying what I have and start considering from scratch a more suitable bike. I would need a new handlebar, new shifters, and new brake levers, and still not be able to get my weight as far backwards as I could on a mountain bike. Nevertheless I'll take a look at the BG QR setup.

My SKS fender is tab mounted, so as you say, it reduces the height of the tire I can handle. If I lopped off the front and slid the remaining fender up behind the steerer tube, I think I can still use the tab. If not, I think the bar end plug idea would work.

When I slid I was at about 80psi, near the tire's maximum. I didn't even consider this. :rolleyes: Shoulda be closer to 50 psi. Should I use the lower pressure for the back tire too?

The conversion to flat bars may be less expensive than you think. Also you would have the future ability to switch bars depending on the type of terrain involved on different tours.

About the plug mount of the front fender. No trimming of the fender needed. Just a hole in the fender for the screw and washer in the middle of the solid rubber bar end plug. Then push up into the steerer and tighten the screw to expand the plug. The rubber also dampens fender noise.

On tire pressure: At times even 50 psi may be too high depending on the surface and the weight on the bike. Remember that the weight of the BOB on your rear wheel will prevent the rear wheel from rising over an obstacle or pothole damaging the rim as I saw occur on the Divide ride. Too much gear weight plus the weight of the BOB can cause rear wheel problems. The rear tire will need higher pressures than the front in order to protect the rim. But there are limits to what tire pressure can do IF overloaded!

For example,I rode with someone I met enroute for a few days early in my Divide ride. This person had read the books and followed all the gospel about equipment gear and bike so he rode a front suspension hardtail with a BOB and even had monster downhill rims. He said that he liked the unencumbered handling of his mountain bike when using the BOB.
On downhills he just let the bike and BOB fly down with the BOB bouncing all over the place. In short order I suggested that he was overloaded and ran too high a tire pressure. He thought that anyone with gray hair could not know much. So he ignored me-- for a while until we started climbing steeply. He walked and I rode. He asked why and as you can see by the length of these posts I told him clearly and completely. Unfortunately he only asked after he had fractured his new downhill rear rim.

My point for anyone touring is to be ruthless in limiting your gear weight. You will have a more enjoyable ride and will have fewer equipment problems.

Ok, I now understand what you mean by the bar end plug in the steerer tube. Unfortuantely, my head tube entends down from the crotch of the fork by about a half an inch making this the limiting factor for tire height, not the position of the tab on the fender in relation to the screw mount on the back of the fork. More creativity on my part will be required...

Where do you buy your Schwalbes? The only sources for the wider XR's seems to be Wallbike and the Schwalbe website in Canada. Very very expensive. Earlier this year Performance was selling 35mm XR's for about $30, but they were snapped up quickly.

Also, then would you agree that with a 35mm / 47mm rear/front setup that maximum/minimum pressures, respectively, would be the way to go? It goes without saying that one should take as little weight as possible on a tour, but one does enjoy a cup of espresso in the morning.....

If I remember clearly I had to file down the steerer tube lower extension when I installed my fenders long ago.

I bought the 700X47 Schwalbe Marathon XR tires directly from the Canadian site. Expensive- sort of -due to up front price shock but my trouble free experience made them cheap in the long run. I only replaced them after nearly 8000 miles of mostly offroad use. I gave them to a friend who is still using them for heavy offroad touring. In hindsight I should have kept them but wanted new tires for another long ride.
Every European tourist I met on the Divide ride used Schwalbe because of their legendary endurance and puncture resistance. My experience has been the same.

I used 700X47 XR's for both front and rear and would recommend that IF you can fit them. A 35 would not float enough but would sink into the dirt too much in soft conditions. If you must choose between fenders and 47 tires I would go with the tires and use clip on fenders to deflect spray and grit.

What is your rear wheel like? 36/40 hole? straight or DB gauge spokes? I ask because I think that the BOB will put more stress on your rear wheel.

And the latest XR's are an improved version over the old ones. Also, an updated and more informative website:

http://schwalbetires.com/node

Unfortunately, there would be way too much to file on my bike and (of course) there is a limit to what I am willing to do to it to get fenders on....

Both of my wheels are 36h, straight 14 ga. I pushed Co-Motion hard for 40 or 48h, but they were adamant that 36h would be more than adequate. I weigh suited up about 175 lbs and my BOB and gear weigh about 50 lbs putting about (0.8x175 + .3x60 = ) 158lbs of dead weight over the rear wheel. I mentioned before that I am a cautious rider when riding off-road. This seems less than racks/panniers which on the same basis would be (.8x175 + .9x32 + .1x18 = ) 171 and alot less than if I were overweight with a BMI of 25 (.8x200 + .9x32 + .1x18 = ) 191 or obese with a BMI of 30 (.8x240 + .9x32 + .1x18 =) 223 lbs.

Is having only 36h a concern? There is certainly alot of discussion about higher spoke count wheels being more suitable to loaded pannier touring, but precious little about touring with a trailer.

Both of my wheels are 36h, straight 14 ga. I pushed Co-Motion hard for 40 or 48h, but they were adamant that 36h would be more than adequate. I weigh suited up about 175 lbs and my BOB and gear weigh about 50 lbs putting about (0.8x175 + .3x60 = ) 158lbs of dead weight over the rear wheel.

Is having only 36h a concern? There is certainly alot of discussion about higher spoke count wheels being more suitable to loaded pannier touring, but precious little about touring with a trailer.

According to Co-motion web, the Americano has a rear dropout spacing of 145mm (same as most tandems). This means the rear wheel is made almost dishless (maybe it is dishless). A 36h dishless rear wheel is strong enough to support two riders on tandem, easily 350+ pounds together. If I had a 145mm dropout spacing and 36h, I would have no concern with your weight at all (as long as rear wheel well made with good tension on spokes). The issue comes with 135mm dropout spacing or less because this means a dished rear wheel where most of the weight is concentrated not on 36 but on 18 spokes. With dishless, the weight is concentrated on all spokes. There is no reason for you to be concerned about having only 36h in the rear.

I agree with bwgride:
My BG has 36h straight gauge on 130mm spacing so you are more than good to go.
I had no trouble with wheels or tires on the Divide with this set up even with my excess body mass but low equipment weight.

I weigh well over 200, and I haven't even had problems with 130 32 spoke wheels. In the Beckman stuff he goes through the various hubs and ends up concluding the 145 hub adds nothing to wheel strength and may even be a liability to axle strength, people tend to forget how much of the hub is consumed with the drum brake or disc brake requirements of the standard tandem set-up. However, I'm sure as far as spoke routing is concerned, even if there isn't as dramatic an advantage as is sometimes assumed, it is still very stout. I did throw some numbers at this problem in a recent thread, either here or in the Framebuilding section. Which hub did you get? Is it DT or Phil? If it's LX I might be a Little worried in 145 (great hubs in 135, so how could the tandem version be worse, just haven't seen them).

By the way. I did track down Beckman's Great Divide Tour bike, and it has rigid forks. I think he is interested in designing bikes with suspension but given his general views about racks and such, he hasn't offered them in his most recent price list. The upshot being it must say something about the possibility of rigid forks being used on the GD.

I have DT Hugi symmetric disk hubs.

Thanks to all for your suggestions. After getting a 50-622 XR from Schwalbe in Canada for my rear wheel (44-622 Mutanoraptor for the front) I will simulate the Great Divide by riding a few fire trails around here in San Diego. If I continue to have problems on descents, I think I'll look into getting a hardtail, since the long wheelbase of my Americano may prevent me from getting my weight back suffficiently even with flat bars. Getting front suspension will be an added bonus.