My incident (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=197444) yesterday prompted me to wonder why these people react in such a way toward us (not to mention why they tend to yell the exact same phrase). As much as we love to think of these incidents as the childish actions of the uninformed*, I'm, unfortunately, starting to see how this kind of response is possibly natural and intuitive.
Imagine the typical motorist. I'd say most can't imagine riding a bike in traffic and give them no credit beyond that of a recreational/training tool for kids and some adults, with the exception of a fringe who, for whatever reason, can't drive and must use them to get around. Now, the previous sentence took more thought to construct than I would assume most even give to the entire subject of cycling; it's more of a subconsious association of "bike=toy". In addition, imagine what they experience on the road. Since motor vehicles make up the vast majority of roadway traffic, I would assume most drivers are very accustomed to the idea of always going at or above the speed limit anywhere other than intersections and their destination; it becomes routine.
Given this, imagine what happens when they encounter a bicycle in the road ahead of them going significantly slower than the speed limit. This would be an unusual circumstance; one that breaks them out of their "everything is normal" mindset. As a result, the natural response is confusion and anger towards whatever is causing this break in the expected. An analogy might be the placement of a speed bump in the middle of a freeway: It would be completely unexpected to motorists, causing them to slow down unnaturally, and generating anger for this needless disruption of their routine.
Now, imagine if bicycles made up the vast majority of roadway traffic. Would we care if the few strange folk driving cars were getting the most benefit out of their vehicles? In other words, would we care if they rarely reach a speed faster than that of the rest of traffic, assuming the speed limits haven't already been adjusted downward? The only thing we would care about is if these few cagers interrupted the flow of traffic we expect to, and do, experience the majority of the time.
Another analogy might be if there was a new cultural trend toward runners (pedestrians), skateboarders, and roller skaters using the roadway in a vehicular manner. Say they were enough of them to get laws passed recognizing them as vehicles with all rights and responsibilities given any motorist, even if we cyclists couldn't understand why they would want to be on the road in the first place. Suddenly, the roles have been reversed. Imagine if you were a cyclist coming up on a significantly slower roller skater "taking the lane" on a NOL (:D). You would feel surprise and annoyance at the unusual obstruction. This would turn into anger as you come to the immediate conclusion that they should be "out of the way" of faster, "normal" traffic such as yourself. While you're thinking that they should get the hell off the road, you try to pass them in a manner which is as lazy or least disruptive to your existing course and speed as possible. In doing this, you'll probably try to stay in the same lane to avoid having to negotiate with traffic in the next lane and/or avoid a large momentum shift, so you end up buzzing the skater in the process, though, this time, without incident.
As you accelerate well past the skater you wonder if your pass was too close, but you ease your conscience with the thought that if the skater doesn't like it he should just get on the sidewalk where he belongs....
------
My intent is not to advocate any specific change in our behavior, but to suggest that any animosity between motorists and ourselves is more like a classic case of a majority having a prejudice against a minority, because we are different and they fear change--a phenomenon hardly unique to the human condition. It also seems to be the case that both motorists and cyclists believe in the superiority of their chosen vehicle, that both think the other should be more like them, and perhaps most damning of all, that we're both trying to get to our destinations as fast and easily as possible using the same transport infrastructure--a set of mutually exclusive objectives.
So, my conclusion would be the same as we've always had: Motorist and cyclist education is only half the battle; the other is getting enough bicycles on the road to affect the common conception of what roadway travel should be like.
* Not to say there aren't some discourteous cagers out there who, when informed of the law pertaining to bicycles, would significantly change their point of view.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Another analogy might be if there was a new cultural trend toward runners (pedestrians), skateboarders, and roller skaters using the roadway in a vehicular manner. Say they were enough of them to get laws passed recognizing them as vehicles with all rights and responsibilities given any motorist, even if we cyclists couldn't understand why they would want to be on the road in the first place. Suddenly, the roles have been reversed. Imagine if you were a cyclist coming up on a significantly slower roller skater "taking the lane" on a NOL (:D). You would feel surprise and annoyance at the unusual obstruction. This would turn into anger as you come to the immediate conclusion that they should be "out of the way" of faster, "normal" traffic such as yourself. While you're thinking that they should get the hell off the road, you try to pass them in a manner which is as lazy or least disruptive to your existing course and speed as possible. In doing this, you'll probably try to stay in the same lane to avoid having to negotiate with traffic in the next lane and/or avoid a large momentum shift, so you end up buzzing the skater in the process, though, this time, without incident.
As you accelerate well past the skater you wonder if your pass was too close, but you ease your conscience with the thought that if the skater doesn't like it he should just get on the sidewalk where he belongs....
You've just perfectly described a typical multi-use path (MUP). As the weather gets warmer, brace yourself for BF members complaining about all of the runners, pedestrians, skateboarders, roller skaters, dog walkers and stroller pushers using "our" paths.
Roody
Well I guess when you try too hard to get into the mind of the enemy you risk losing your own mind.
DCCommuter
I think there is a point where while it is legal to cycle on a road, the conditions are such that it's just not a reasonable thing to do. However, I'm not sure where that point is.
An observation: I ride mostly in the city, and there are very few places where a cyclist creates a genuine and unavoidable delay for motorists. It takes a combination of factors -- otherwise light traffic, no possibility for passing, a lane too narrow for sharing, no shoulder or bike lane -- for a prolonged distance, and that rarely happens. What I've noticed is that hostile reactions from motorists have no correlation with the actual magnitude of the delay. Hostile reactions seem to stem more from surprise at seeing an unexpected bike than any practical concern about being delayed. Washington has a lot of multi-lane roads with low speed limits, and drivers will honk at me even if we are the only two vehicles on the road. This behavior is much less common on roads where cyclists are more common.
RobertHurst
Well I guess when you try too hard to get into the mind of the enemy you risk losing your own mind.
'The enemy?' Man your bike rides must be really intense. I picture you riding with ammo belts strapped across your chest and a knife between your teeth.
Bekologist
star bellied sneetches and plain bellied sneetches don't see eye to eye. vehicular parity is an illusion, a bike does not have the same 'rights' to the roadway as an out of control logging truck driven by an anti cycling meth-addled gashuffer.
sauerwald
I live in an area that is mostly rural, and it seems to me (not a scientific survey), that motorists get more upset at being delayed by a cyclist than they do by a tractor in the road. In both cases, they have to slow to pass safely, and the tractor being a larger vehicle is harder to see around and pass, but still, I never see people yelling at the farmer driving his tractor. Also, I find that I get yelled at less often in inclement weather - yet again, my obstruction is no greater than on a glorious morning like today. Perhaps it is envy on the part of the motorists that breeds their ire?
derath
I think you are on to something. I personally believe the biggest problem area is the fact that so few in the USA consider cycling to be a form of transportation. It is considered just another toy. And why would a toy be allowed on a road designed for transportation?
I am certainly no expert. But it seems from reading about other countries, most are much more tolerant of cyclists and both bicycles and cars get along better on the roads. This includes other countries where there aren't huge numbers of cyclists even.
The other big problem is just the lack of manners. I don't have a job conducive to commuting by bicycle. But I put a lot of miles on my car every year for work. Getting to see how drivers treat other drivers, how can we expect any better in a car/bicycle situation?
For example, sunday morning, on the way to church with the family. I am in the left lane of a 4 lane highway 60mph speed limit. I am doing 70mph and actively passing a car in the right lane. Yet the guy behind me is riding my ***** because he wants to go 80mph and I am holding him up.
-D
sgtsmile
I have been saying what the OP has been saying for ages, just not typing it out here. Think he is right. And, he put his finger on why I dont use MUP if I want to go on a bike ride with any speed in it: it just is not worth it, I hate buzzing and scaring peds, so I avoid those paths and stick to the street (if I want trails, we are blessed with killer one way maintained mtn bike trails where hikers beware...)
LittleBigMan
Prime Directive, you remind me a lot of myself. The person who sparked your current thought process, and the analytical evaluations that proceeded from it, probably hasn't given any more thought to what happened beyond the original inspiration that led to his remark, "Get the he11 off the road!" His mind will doubtless go no deeper in revelation than that.
He'll get a lot of mileage out of the incident when he's drinking with his buddies, though. At least he'll get something productive out of the experience. ;)
sbhikes
And I suppose that removing all the bike lanes and telling all cyclists to simply take the lane is going to change things for the better.
Roody
'The enemy?' Man your bike rides must be really intense. I picture you riding with ammo belts strapped across your chest and a knife between your teeth.
Well, rereading my late-night post in the light of a new day, I can see why you'd think that. I'm actually pretty easy going most of the time, especially when I'm riding. Also, I sure didn't mean to imply that Prime Directive has lost his mind. Sorry for wording it so poorly! :o P.D. is obviously a very sane and thoughtful person.
But this one individual motorcyclist was an enemy! He was an ignorant bully, one of the worst kinds of enemies, and it's too bad P.D. had to run into him so fresh in his/her riding career. I guess he/she kind of lost that new rider cherry feeling, and it's really upsetting.
What I really meant is that we riders sometimes worry way too much about the impact we have on this kind of cager, when they, in fact, have much more impact on us, and they don't stop to think about us at all, ever. (The incident P.D. referred to was an ugly comment from a motorcyclist, one of the small minority of motorists who think we don't belong on the road.)
If somebody can get to be 30 or 40 years old and still not know that we do have a right to the road, my bet is that this individual is ignorant in many areas of his/her life. And ignorant because he wants to be ignorant, just as he wants to be a bully.
Don't waste a lot of time thinking about the world view of ignorant bullies. They have no lessons to teach you, and they will never listen to what you have to say. Hold your place on the road if you can, ditch it if you must, and then ride on without giving the bully another thought, because he isn't worth your time. In this context maybe my original statement makes more sense: "...when you try too hard to get into the mind of the enemy you risk losing your own mind."
genec
You've just perfectly described a typical multi-use path (MUP). As the weather gets warmer, brace yourself for BF members complaining about all of the runners, pedestrians, skateboarders, roller skaters, dog walkers and stroller pushers using "our" paths.
Oddly enough I don't have those kinds of feelings about sharing a MUP with others... I certainly do not feel that kind of animosity towards others on a path... now perhaps it is because the path to me is a secondary roadway (the regular roads being primary) so I accept others on the path. Drivers don't have a primary roadway and secondary roadway (unless we consider hiways the primary roadway).
But I really think it goes beyond what Prime Directive is saying... and I think Road Rage, Speeding, and lack of courtesy (failing to signal, aggressive merging) toward fellow motorists are an indicator of a bigger problem. We just happen to also fall into that same bucket.
I believe there is too much "entitlement" thinking or "I own the road" going on in the heads of motorists. I am not sure why, although I can speculate about the constant messages Hollywood and Madison Ave put into the heads of drivers, plus the high costs of both fuel and vehicle... But really I just don't know.
When drivers start to drive friendly with one another, then I believe we cyclists will also find friendlier roads.
genec
If somebody can get to be 30 or 40 years old and still not know that we do have a right to the road, my bet is that this individual is ignorant in many areas of his/her life. And ignorant because he wants to be ignorant, just as he wants to be a bully.
It may surprise you that few motorists really do know that we have a right to the road. Do an informal survey of your office... just casually ask folks at lunch what the rights of cyclists on the road really are. It will be eye opening.
The rights of cyclists were maybe taught to most motorists in a brief session (if they took driver's ed), that brief session was just a drop in a huge bucket of other knowledge they also had to learn, so no doubt few remember it.
Add to that the fact that a lot of the laws for cyclists rights came about in the mid to late 70's and there are generations of drivers for which these laws simply do not exist (It's not as if the states mail out flyers as reminders of new laws).
The few folks with whom I have had altercations and spoken to, have expressed a total lack of knowledge about cyclist's rights.
Many motorists just learn the briefest of the legal aspects and then work out rationalizations for the rest in their head. Some of this rationalization can be quite crazy.
Anyway... talk to your co-workers... see if any of them really know the rights of cyclists on the road.
DataJunkie
Heck, I had no clue until I found BF and started researching cyclocommuting.
The last person I remember teaching me anything about streets and cycling was my parents.
"Don't ride on the streets" "ride on the sidewalks in the reverse direction of traffic flow"
genec
Heck, I had no clue until I found BF and started researching cyclocommuting.
The last person I remember teaching me anything about streets and cycling was my parents.
"Don't ride on the streets" "ride on the sidewalks in the reverse direction of traffic flow"
BINGO!
Bikepacker67
All I know is that I tongue lashed a soccermom the other day for buzzing me -- 100 yds later at the stopsign.
Basically I told her that my life was more important than her impatience.
Selfish Beyatch.
Roody
It may surprise you that few motorists really do know that we have a right to the road. Do an informal survey of your office... just casually ask folks at lunch what the rights of cyclists on the road really are. It will be eye opening.
I have talked to my co-workers and to a lot of non-cycling motorists. Most here know that we have a right to the road, but that's about as far as it goes. They commonly say they think it's dangerous to ride on the roads, and many think it would be safer to ride on the sidewalk.
But I rarely get people on my rides who tell me to get on the sidewalk. And it's extremely rare that somebody actually tries to force a rider off the road.
I really don't care what cagers (or other people) think, it's only what they do that affects me. Almost all who believe that we should be on the sidewalk also know that we are protected by laws and social customs, so they're not going to act on their beliefs.
chipcom
'The enemy?'
+1
Kinda hard to get people to respect you and extend courtesy to you if you obviously have a chip on your shoulder. Your attitude and body language is picked up by others more than many folks realize.
genec
I have talked to my co-workers and to a lot of non-cycling motorists. Most here know that we have a right to the road, but that's about as far as it goes. They commonly say they think it's dangerous to ride on the roads, and many think it would be safer to ride on the sidewalk.
But I rarely get people on my rides who tell me to get on the sidewalk. And it's extremely rare that somebody actually tries to force a rider off the road.
I really don't care what cagers (or other people) think, it's only what they do that affects me. Almost all who believe that we should be on the sidewalk also know that we are protected by laws and social customs, so they're not going to act on their beliefs.
While I tend to agree with you regarding those that would actually force us off the roads, that is not the issue that I think we have to deal with.
The greater issue is that motorists are not treating us as equal users of the road, as few actually believe (based on that very "thinking" you mention, which is why I do care what they "think") we have those rights or should be there... that lack of belief allows many motorists to have little tolerance for us... for even the 2-3 second delays that may occur, if any. Of course that same lack of driving courtesy also extends to other motorists, so it is not as if we have an exclusive here, but the potential for harm to us is greater, if we are cut off or otherwise.
I really am not concern about those rare idiots that are out to prove something, as indeed they are rare and there is little any of us could do to change them... however, the average driver can do better, so that we all could just get along.
This is supposing of course that the cyclists they meet daily are not acting as idiots too.
I know I use my turn signals and I drive under the speed limit... could you imagine what it would be like out there if more motorists worked to "drive friendly."
CommuterRun
Another analogy might be if there was a new cultural trend toward runners (pedestrians), skateboarders, and roller skaters using the roadway in a vehicular manner. Say they were enough of them to get laws passed recognizing them as vehicles with all rights and responsibilities given any motorist, even if we cyclists couldn't understand why they would want to be on the road in the first place. Suddenly, the roles have been reversed. Imagine if you were a cyclist coming up on a significantly slower roller skater "taking the lane" on a NOL (:D). You would feel surprise and annoyance at the unusual obstruction. This would turn into anger as you come to the immediate conclusion that they should be "out of the way" of faster, "normal" traffic such as yourself. While you're thinking that they should get the hell off the road, you try to pass them in a manner which is as lazy or least disruptive to your existing course and speed as possible. In doing this, you'll probably try to stay in the same lane to avoid having to negotiate with traffic in the next lane and/or avoid a large momentum shift, so you end up buzzing the skater in the process, though, this time, without incident.
As you accelerate well past the skater you wonder if your pass was too close, but you ease your conscience with the thought that if the skater doesn't like it he should just get on the sidewalk where he belongs....
I doubt I would get that fired up about it. The only thing that might upset me in this situation is if they couldn't hold their line, were all over the road and were not being predictable. Other than that, I can easily slow until it's safe to pass, then pass.
bluebottle1
Also, I find that I get yelled at less often in inclement weather - yet again, my obstruction is no greater than on a glorious morning like today. Perhaps it is envy on the part of the motorists that breeds their ire?
Maybe your local motorists just don't like to roll down the windows when it's raining.
SirMike1983
I think there is a point where while it is legal to cycle on a road, the conditions are such that it's just not a reasonable thing to do. However, I'm not sure where that point is.
An observation: I ride mostly in the city, and there are very few places where a cyclist creates a genuine and unavoidable delay for motorists. It takes a combination of factors -- otherwise light traffic, no possibility for passing, a lane too narrow for sharing, no shoulder or bike lane -- for a prolonged distance, and that rarely happens. What I've noticed is that hostile reactions from motorists have no correlation with the actual magnitude of the delay. Hostile reactions seem to stem more from surprise at seeing an unexpected bike than any practical concern about being delayed. Washington has a lot of multi-lane roads with low speed limits, and drivers will honk at me even if we are the only two vehicles on the road. This behavior is much less common on roads where cyclists are more common.
True- I think motorists have a mentality much akin to the militant bikers who think the multi-paths belong only to bikers. Many motorists think the roadways are only for cars just as there are plenty of bikers who think the trails are only for bikes. (The Mt. Vernon and Cap. Crescent Trails I have in mind around here) Of course neither is true. And a bicyclist who gets used to dealing with foot traffic on the trails deals better with it, just as a motorist used to bikers on the road deals better with that.
HWS
You've just perfectly described a typical multi-use path (MUP). As the weather gets warmer, brace yourself for BF members complaining about all of the runners, pedestrians, skateboarders, roller skaters, dog walkers and stroller pushers using "our" paths.
MUPs in my neck of the woods rarely have anyone on them more than a mile from a parking lot.:D
genec
True- I think motorists have a mentality much akin to the militant bikers who think the multi-paths belong only to bikers. Many motorists think the roadways are only for cars just as there are plenty of bikers who think the trails are only for bikes. (The Mt. Vernon and Cap. Crescent Trails I have in mind around here) Of course neither is true. And a bicyclist who gets used to dealing with foot traffic on the trails deals better with it, just as a motorist used to bikers on the road deals better with that.
<sarcasm on>
But shouldn't those on foot be properly trained so as to be an example to those on wheels? If those on foot were Effective Walkers, don't you think that the cyclists would get the message and deal better with the walkers.
<sarcasm off.
Or should the cyclists simply try a bit of courtesy and then all the parties could just get along, just like you suggest. ;)
SirMike1983
<sarcasm on>
But shouldn't those on foot be properly trained so as to be an example to those on wheels? If those on foot were Effective Walkers, don't you think that the cyclists would get the message and deal better with the walkers.
<sarcasm off.
Or should the cyclists simply try a bit of courtesy and then all the parties could just get along, just like you suggest. ;)
Heh but if they tried courtesy would it still be "the road"?:rolleyes: Perhaps we shall never know...:D