Folding Bikes - QUICK: Before she changes her mind - Swift or MU SL?

I got the wife's approval to buy a new bike last night! :love:

I have a Speed TR and love it. I'm a newbie with about 350-400 miles experience over the past 6 months or so. I'm fascinated by folders so I'm looking for another small wheeled folder but one more suitable for chasing the local road racers.

The Mu is nearly exactly what I want except for two things. I'd like to get the gearing up around 120-125 gear inchs. A Schlumpf should handle that nicely. Second is the flat bar. It seems like switching to a drop or bull horn would not be quite as easy but it should be doable. Right?? If I go Mu, I'm thinking of starting with some bar ends that make the flat bar more bull hornish.

On the other hand the Swift starts out a little cheaper but heavier. Changing out the tires, wheels, saddle, pedals ... eliminates both of those differences. I'd also add a Schlumpf so overall we're talking very similar dollars - probably more $$ for the Swift. I figure the Swift would be more customizable down the road.

Anyone ridden both? Is there a dramatic difference in the feel or speed? Which is more suitable for chasing roadies? Any comments or concerns I didn't mention?

I know the Speed Pro TT specs out very much to my desires but I have a Speed TR so I'd like something a little different frame wise.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Which Mu? There are 2 models, y'know.... I assume the SL, as the XL is more of a city bike.

The Mu is a new model, so I don't think there are many folks who've ridden one yet. That said, I don't think you'd notice a huge difference between a Mu and the TR. The Mu SL will be much lighter (19 lbs) so that might affect the handling a bit, and the Stelvios will be a bit faster than the Big Apples on a TR. However the Mu has a smaller gear range than the TR, so that may incur a speed penalty. Weight doesn't make a big difference in terms of speed -- at least, not one that you'd notice unless you're doing time trials. Rigidity, rider position, tires, gearing and rider weight are bigger factors than weight alone.

If my understanding of bike design and speed / efficiency is correct, the Mu and Speed Pro still have all that flex in the frame and the handlepost. So my assumption is that you won't notice a huge speed difference between the Mu, TR and TT models.

You could set up your TR with a non-supsension seatpost, a pair of Stelvio tires, take off the rack, and get all of the same speed advantages you'd get by spending $1000 on a Mu SL. And then swap all those components back on in 15 minutes, if you decide to take the TR on a long ride / tour. :D


From what I understand, you'd need either a Swift, Bike Friday or Moulton to go at road-bike speeds.

Well I'd guess that was a vote for the Swift. :)

Yes, I was talking about the mu sl, sorry that wasn't clear - I was thinking weight, speed and rigidity went hand in hand - I'm gathering that you're thinking rigidity is more a factor than weight. hmmm ...

I plan to address the gearing concerns with the Schlumpf Speed Drive ...

Bike Fridays in my price range of about $1500 total seemed heavy by comparison to the mu sl or the swift but I guess that's an option I should consider if I want to play boy racer on a folder. I wonder again what $1500 can get in a Bike Friday ... (surfing over now.)

My vote: the Swift. Have Peter build it per your spec. Give him your road bike riding geometry. Get Stelvios or (my preference, Kevlar Primo Comets), a Nexus-8 and overdrive Schlumpf. Expensive .... but getting spousal green-light for a further bike could take years, IME.

MU SL
reason is that the MU frame is CONSIDERABLE stiffer than the Speed frame. WHich doesnt mean the speed frame is a wet noodle either ....

with the Schlumpf that bike rocks

lower weight combined with stiffer frame is pretty much an unbeatable deal. Plus it looks good , is easy to fold..

Of course I sell those things, so I do have vested interest....

go over to the Dahon forum, there is a fellow who rides an early MU frame ( an XL ) and check how he likes his frame.... :-)

Thor

dalmore,
I don't own one, but am saving up for a roadie style folder. The bike I want to buy is the Bike Friday Pocket Pilot starting right at a spit uner $1000 with drop bars and 451 wheels. While it is a few pounds heavier than the swift or mu, this extra weight would only effect you when climbing, and as we all know, unless you are already in really good shape, it is easier to lose 2-3 lbs of body weight than bike weight. The Pocket Pilot also has the slightly larger in diameter 451 wheels which will give you a little more advantage on downhills, generally have smaller rims, and can take slightly skinnier tires (which will give you just a little more speed). In addition, the best place to lose weight on your bike for speed is the wheels. Velocity makes a really nice wheelset that can be bought immediately or a little further down the road if you want to speed up your ride. I talked to a couple of recumbent riders who switched to the Velocity Thracians and they told me they picked up an extra 1mph over their old avg speeds with the new wheel.
I envy you your great predicament. Please let us know what you end up with.
Good luck on your choice.
juan162

Which Mu? There are 2 models, y'know.... I assume the SL, as the XL is more of a city bike.

the title was "QUICK: Before she changes her mind - Swift or MU SL?"........y'know

:beer:

I'm jonesing for a folder myself and to me the answer to your question basically depends on how much money you want or are disposed to spend. Also, how important is how the bike folds? To me a BF isn't really a folder in the sense of a Brompton or even Dahon. The same for the Swift, although it's a bit better than BF.

In terms of value/specs, neither BF, Swift, nor any other builder can even touch the MU SL. In other words, if you want a BF, Swift etc. spec'd to MU SL standard (component-wise), you'll probably will have to spend at least twice as much. On a MU SL basically it's the Schlumpf Speed-Drive and you're done.

Last but not least, I think the best would be to test ride all the bikes in your shortlist and choose the one that gives you the best "ride feel" (always being within your budget, of course).

Thanks for all the input - I've decided on the MU SL at this point. You can read why below if you're really bored/curious.

I'd love to arrange to test rides but folders are "toys" around here. No one stocks them and few will discuss them with me. Leaving me with web speculations and other peoples riding impressions.

I did some reading today on power consumption variables at Fitwerx (http://www.fitwerx.com/NewFiles/TechCenter.html) that gave me some interesting things to consider. Seems aerodynamic drag is the biggie when talking road riding. Dropbars or bullhorns on either of the bikes in question should be about the same as far as rider position goes. So I consider that to be a wash.

Next up would be rigidity for transmission of power. I really need to test that to make a definitive answer. Eyeballing each frame looks to me like the higher bar on the Swift has benefits that should strengthen the handlebar stem and the seat post by making them shorter. It's got a nice traditional rear triangle. Yet that handlbar post is still long and it rakes back along the axis of stress somewhat countering that shorter length. On the other hand I like the curved frame of the MU SL. Makes me think of an arch and it's inherit strength versus a flat bar. The MU's handlebar stem is cocked against the line of stress as you pull on the handlebars to get power. But there is no rear triangle on the MU ... Having said all that and read opinions here and elsewhere, I consider this a wash since it will be impossible for me to make a more informed judgement ... I'm not patient enough to find some place to ride them back to back.

Next up would be rolling resistance. I'd have to drop some serious money to get suspension hub/rims/tires on the Swift that bring it up to the Mu SL on this point.

Weight. Call this a wash IF I UPGRADE the components of the Swift. They'd weigh nearly the same, I suspect.

Future proof - to the Swift - standard parts everywhere.

Gearing - wash.

Cost - actually to the MU SL if I put equivalent wheels on the Swift. If not, the MU wins on rolling resistance and weight.

Looks - Hands Down to the MU SL. Just wish it were a jazzy color but the lines are great.

Comfort/riding position - I overlaid photos of the Swift, Mu and the Speed. Geometry is nearly the same - at least within the limits of my Photoshop skills. The Mu appears to be a little bit more stretched out between the handlebars and seat. Just barely.

Advantage on my scorecard - mu sl.

I looked hard at the Bike Friday's too. I think the pocket rocket and pocket rocket pro would be nice. That funky handlbar curve looks to be a strong design that would really allow one to pull back on the bars to get leverage. But the $$$ there are higher. The pilot looks to be mostly the same as the Swift but on taller tires. It's nice option but it just didn't speak to me ... go figure.

the title was "QUICK: Before she changes her mind - Swift or MU SL?"........y'know

:beer:

Hey, Dalmore brought Bike Fridays up and he's the one that started this thread!

Dalmore, either of your choices would be good ones. Both have their strength and weaknesses. What is more important is that you are happy with your choice. If you end up with the MU SL, please tell us how you like it, as I don't think there have been any reports on this site as of yet,

juan162

If you want to lead rather than chase the road racers then go with the Bike Friday. You will not be giving anything up the the guys decked out in full kits.
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15718&d=1147988014
These things fly!!!
Then again, I have not ridden any of the others you are looking at.
Post pics when you get your new bike.
kenal0

I'd buy another Swift before I'd buy another Dahon. I rode a sub 20 lb Swift and it felt strong. The lightweight Dahons I could make flex like a noodle. Best move of my biking career was dump my Dahon SpeedPro and buy my Swift.

As for your analogy about an arc, it is apt ONLY if the stress is in the plane of the arc. If the arc is vertical it provides strength only in the vertical plane. It you provide lateral stress on it, its not a benefit. Diameter of the tubing is more important here. Bigger diameter = stiffer frame.

Not to bring up the subject again, but once the Mu SLT or Mu STL+ or whatever will be its successor from the Dahon of the month club, you would be lucky to give your bike away if you want to sell it.

My Swift is one of the few folders I can actually get out of the seat, stand on the pedals and not feel it flex. I am NOT a small guy. I felt like I was going to break my SpeedPro in half when I did it.

For the record I have no interest; vested, invested or otherwise in either a Swift or Dahon. A Swift uses very easily swapped out components. Almost nothing proprietary is used. Peter can build you probably what you want so you don’t buy stuff you don’t need and then will throw away later.

As much as I like Thor as a person, as he said he sells Dahon. It is hard for his judgment NOT to be impacted by the economic factors of him being a Dahon dealer. I respect but if he didn’t recommend a Dahon in this situation I would suspect his business acumen. The Swift thread is one of the most read threads in this entire forum and for good reason. It is a great bike! You can easily make it whatever you want quite easily.

Take the components on the Mu SL and put them on a Swift and the Swift is the better bike in all regards (including resale) except folded size and speed of folding... so the Mu could be preferred if speed of folding or folded size are major factors. Non-performance considerations are style and immediacy. Both are personal.


Wav, do you feel your DT FS flex when out of the saddle? I don't ( at 190 lbs).

No issues with my DT when out of the saddle. Something that heavy better be strong! Of course it is and it isn't THAT heavy. Compared to my Swift it is. The DT is a bike you can ride like a BMX bike! I have been pretty happy with it so far.

Well I went with Mu SL but I do appreciate the input and advice of those of you who recommended other options. It should arrive in a couple of weeks - and yea, I bought it from Thor.

Logically, I can see arguements for Bike Friday and for Swift but emotionally the Mu SL just hit the sweet spot. I think the rest of my gibberish here was just me trying to make myself think I made a rational rather than emotional buying decision. :) In all honesty - a rational decision would have been to go to my LBS and get a full size road bike so why not quit fooling myself! I'm only looking at folders because they fascinate me.

Having said that. I think the MU has a lot going for it. Particularly for me and my newbie level. I've heard the flex arguments before but frankly, I've not seen it, felt it or whatever. Maybe it's my inexperience. <shrug> Heck, the only things I really feel riding at the moment are the burning in my thighs, the wind on my face and the little 12-year old boy in my heart pedalling away!!

Speaking of which - I think I can squeeze in a ride over lunch...:D

Logically, I can see arguements for Bike Friday and for Swift but emotionally the Mu SL just hit the sweet spot. I think the rest of my gibberish here was just me trying to make myself think I made a rational rather than emotional buying decision. :) In all honesty - a rational decision would have been to go to my LBS and get a full size road bike so why not quit fooling myself! I'm only looking at folders because they fascinate me.
Well, at least you're honest about your decision. Thanks.

To my eye, the Mu is the best looking small Dahon frame. Have to say "small" 'cause I just bought a Cadenza ... if it ever arrives. 4.5 weeks and "item not shipped".

Take the components on the Mu SL and put them on a Swift and the Swift is the better bike in all regards.........

Apart from that I have no clue what could be "better in all regards" on a Swift, these are highly subjective statements that are completely worth nil.

Someone else claims a Brompton is the better bike, the next one a Birdy, etc. etc. etc. etc......in the end you've got the usual "I know better than you Forum-WAR". :fight:

I decline.

I too am torn between a Swift, a Mu (XL in my case), or no new bike at all. So please give us your impressions on the Mu frame as you break it in.

Also, has anybody seen any rider reviews of the Mu?

I too am torn between a Swift, a Mu (XL in my case), or no new bike at all. So please give us your impressions on the Mu frame as you break it in.

Also, has anybody seen any rider reviews of the Mu?

To my eye, the Mu is the best looking small Dahon frame. Have to say "small" 'cause I just bought a Cadenza ... if it ever arrives. 4.5 weeks and "item not shipped".

Sometimes I wonder, if Dahon is really capable of shipping monster containers by itself, then the fault of having very few bikes available to ship must lie in their poor supply chain management. They suck at anticipation of potential sales. I was going to go with Vitesse 5 or the Mu XL, but settled on a DT FS. My decision was made solely after visiting this forum.

Well I went with Mu SL but I do appreciate the input and advice of those of you who recommended other options. It should arrive in a couple of weeks - and yea, I bought it from Thor.

Logically, I can see arguements for Bike Friday and for Swift but emotionally the Mu SL just hit the sweet spot. I think the rest of my gibberish here was just me trying to make myself think I made a rational rather than emotional buying decision. :) In all honesty - a rational decision would have been to go to my LBS and get a full size road bike so why not quit fooling myself! I'm only looking at folders because they fascinate me.

Having said that. I think the MU has a lot going for it. Particularly for me and my newbie level. I've heard the flex arguments before but frankly, I've not seen it, felt it or whatever. Maybe it's my inexperience. <shrug> Heck, the only things I really feel riding at the moment are the burning in my thighs, the wind on my face and the little 12-year old boy in my heart pedalling away!!

Speaking of which - I think I can squeeze in a ride over lunch...:D

Congrats on the new bike. I will caution you about the suspension hub. It doesn't say Pantour in their specs but my experience with their Pantour hub (which this could be a copy) was less than great. Ditto for their lightweight wheels. I hope you are not a big guy and weigh less than 170lbs. My experience with the lightweight Dahons is that they don't like big riders. By that I mean anyone over 180. Keep a very close eye on spoke tension. Just remember in bikes that light weight almost always equals fragile!

Enjoy the new bike when it arrives. I know Thor will take good care of you and I hope to heck you don't have the issues I did with my Dahon SpeedPro between the wheels and the suspension hub I grew to almost hate that bike regardless of how good the rest of it could be at times.

It doesn't say Pantour in their specs but my experience with their Pantour hub (which this could be a copy) was less than great.
From the Dahon Website:

FRONT WHEEL Kinetix Pro S w/ suspension hub, Niobium alloy rim, Sapim laser spokes, Rolf® Paired Spoke Technology™
REAR WHEEL Kinetix Pro, Niobium alloy rim, Sapim laser spokes, Rolf® Paired Spoke Technology™
FRONT HUB Pantour suspension hub
REAR HUB American Classic RD-205
SPOKES Sapim Laser, super light, double butted


Because of the weight - are you shure they're so fragile. I'm intrested in the MU SL too and I'm 6,1", 220 lbs.
According to what you're saying, the MU SL will break in two after I'll ride it a couple of miles.

He said the wheel(s) might fail; he didn't say the bike would break in two.

A poster named oboeguy also had this problem. I think his issues are also documented on the Dahon forum. From what I've read, spoke failure has happened to him a number of times.