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From the Houston Chronicle:
A harrowing encounter
One can empathize with the trail bikers, though. Walkers mutter that they're riding too fast, and motorists curse them for going too slow.
Peter Wang was pedaling "as far to the right as practicable" on Eldridge near Little York at 6:15 a.m. Wednesday when a tailgating driver "began honking at me continuously."
"There were two lanes in our direction of travel, but this driver was taking it upon himself to 'teach me a lesson' and try to force me off of the road," Wang said. "I kept a laser-straight line and I was riding at 20 mph. I did not yell or gesture to him at all. I did not acknowledge him at all.
"Finally, horn still blaring, he passed me on the left in a reckless manner, with disregard for my safety, his safety and the safety of other vehicles," Wang said.
"The final irony," he said, was the sign he was wearing on his back: "Ride of Silence, In Memory of Bicyclists Killed and Injured by Motor Vehicles."
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Obviously a totally clueless motorist. Too bad Peter didn't get the license plate for the reporter too.
It's stories like this that debunk the myth that riding in a particular style will engender co-operation from all motorists. Some rare motorists are just a waste of protoplasm.
It's stories like this that debunk the myth that riding in a particular style will engender co-operation from all motorists.
The only myth this story debunks is some fantasy of your own making, Gene. Only in the dreamland of your mind has anyone ever claimed that riding in a particular style will engender co-operation from all motorists.
"Cyclists fare best that act and are treated as drivers of vehicles" does not mean that "Cyclists are invincible that act and are treated as drivers of vehicles".
So, does this story debunk any myths that are actually promoted in the real world?
I seem to recall stories of a particular cyclist saying they never have trouble with motorists... and that this was due to their particular riding style... Which they had only recently learned.
I always found this amazing as sooner or later every long riding cyclist gets some crap from some motorist somewhere... whether it is the simple "get on the sidewalk" or the ugly extreme that Peter Wang describes... as he no doubt "did everything right."
I don't think I ever said I NEVER have trouble with motorists. And if I did, it should have been clear to you if not to everyone else from the context that I meant "almost never". Same with getting flats. Someone might say "I never get flats" meaning "Relative to others, I very rarely get flats".
From the beginning here, I have always used language such as, "when I studied EC and and learned to apply more assertive lane positioning in my own riding, the close calls and unpleasant run-ins that I used to have all too often, all but disappeared" (or something to that effect).
I think I told you about the guy behind the guy who was honking and gesturing at me to get in the bike lane a couple of weeks ago while we were all stopped at a red light. We discussed several times the old lady who honked at me about a year ago. Yeah, it happens, but it's very rare, and completely inconsequential. That's my experience. And other vehicular cyclists who use the same methodology all report having similar postive experiences (which is why we advocate it). Why all the hand wringing?
Knowing all that, if I ever said NEVER, I would expect you to call me on it. But you never did, which probably means I never said it, and you were just left with the false impression that I did.
Anyway, what difference does it make whether a methodology eliminates non-cooperation, or reduces incidents of non-cooperation from a few a week to just a few a year, except the former allowing you to make your ridiculous claim in post #2?
The difference is that while you may indeed have fewer altercations, you do still have altercations (that you chose to ignore).
Specifically a horn honk or a yelling motorist is not on par with the situation described in the OP... which IS a situation that was brought on by a motorist with an attitude or lack of understanding of the laws... either situation that is not going to change by the riding style of cyclists.
Motorists are part of the problem and must also be dealt with.
Your "low hanging fruit" desire to train cyclists is only dealing with part of the problem... as exemplified by the OP.
A cyclist can indeed do everything right, and still be harassed by a motorist that simply does not know (and may not even care) about the laws that give cycists rights.
"The final irony," he said, was the sign he was wearing on his back: "Ride of Silence, In Memory of Bicyclists Killed and Injured by Motor Vehicles."
Let's hope it was a used car and the sticker was from the previous owner. Maybe that's why he hates cyclists - can't get the damn thing off! :rolleyes:
Motorists are part of the problem and must also be dealt with.
Your "low hanging fruit" desire to train cyclists is only dealing with part of the problem... as exemplified by the OP.
We may disagree on how big a part of the problem they have, but it does not matter, for we also disagree on how deal with that part of the problem. Regardless of how big it is, I believe the only way to deal with it is by getting more and more cyclists to model proper cycling behavior. That's right, it's two birds with one stone. We teach the cyclists to be safer, and we teach the motorists to be more accepting, all through simply teaching the cyclists. Are you with me, or against me?
wait. do some drivers harass bicyclists from behind, or do they not???? Do bicyclists get harassed by motorists, mr head????
...was this fellas' sign on his back an example of the "i'm a loser-hit me" sign mr head suggested i must wear on my jerseys if i receive the ire of motorists???.....
Drivers harass bicyclists. It's not made up, it's not hysteria, it's not make believe, and it's not few and far between. it happens regardless of the bicyclists lane position, notions, hand signals or subtle signals issued to motorists.
Let's hope it was a used car and the sticker was from the previous owner. Maybe that's why he hates cyclists - can't get the damn thing off! :rolleyes:
I read that as being on the cyclist's back... that the motorist was not only a moron to a cyclist doing everything right, but that the cyclist also was on their way to or from a ride of silence... an event carried out due to the death, by auto, of fellow cyclists, perhaps by a motorist just like the "moron."
I believe the only way to deal with it is by getting more and more cyclists to model proper cycling behavior.
This is exactly where we differ.
I think both groups must learn together. I don't think this is a case of A leading B, I think this only works if we all work to reach the same goal together.
I think that there are too many motorists out there for a few, even 2X or 3X as many cyclists to get the message across, and I believe that trying to train cyclists individually with LCIs from group to group is a very ineffective method... again, compared to the sheer number of motorists and especially when there is no effective way to contact and school cyclists.
Since each state has a record of each licensed driver, we know how to contact the motorists, to inform them and let them know of training or law updates or any other issue that a state wishes to do with their licensees.
So while a grassroots system of networking may take some time reaching some, and perhaps many cyclists; motorists can be trained en masse, with the result being a simultaneous change... much in the way MADD has changed DWI laws and reactions.
This is the way to get every one on the same program together... in reaching out to motorists, you are also quite likely to reach many cyclists too... thereby more effectively engaging everyone toward the same goals.
So, you go on and teach a hand full of people every chance you get, meanwhile, I'll push to take on a state at a time.
Good luck.
I cant decide, giant metal orbs to toss thru a windshield, or tire spikes...
j/k
Im not one to rage, infact I would be one of the first to go off the road to prevent injury to myself (or get somthing thrown at me) but I do wish there was a way to "teach them a lesson" somtimes.
Maybe just shooting a gun into the air will give them the right idea ^^
I think that there are too many motorists out there for a few, even 2X or 3X as many cyclists to get the message across, and I believe that trying to train cyclists individually with LCIs from group to group is a very ineffective method... again, compared to the sheer number of motorists and especially when there is no effective way to contact and school cyclists.
Since each state has a record of each licensed driver, we know how to contact the motorists, to inform them and let them know of training or law updates or any other issue that a state wishes to do with their licensees.
So while a grassroots system of networking may take some time reaching some, and perhaps many cyclists; motorists can be trained en masse, with the result being a simultaneous change... much in the way MADD has changed DWI laws and reactions.
This is the way to get every one on the same program together... in reaching out to motorists, you are also quite likely to reach many cyclists too... thereby more effectively engaging everyone toward the same goals.
So, you go on and teach a hand full of people every chance you get, meanwhile, I'll push to take on a state at a time.
Good luck.
Don't forget public school education. Hawaii has the bike safety program in the 4th grade, which has yielded good results.
Lafayette Parish, Louisiana was teaching the LAB Kids II course at the 6th grade level in all public schools, until the funding ran out. While that program had been going for only a few years, the Lafayette area is the only area in the state where cyclist deaths on the road declined.
Attack the problem the way Mother Nature attacks a mountain: from all possible angles, with many different methods, great patience, and never give up. After a few eons, no more mountain.
There ain't no magic pill.
Put the lion's share of the responsibility squarely where it belongs...... In the drivers' seat. Once I can "bump" a car off the road and inadvertently and quite by accident smash every bone in the drivers' body with my bike or some new portable energy field, simply because the car was in my mind in the wrong place then we'll revisit this one shall we? :lol: AS above get the little blighters when in school, away from their mothers and fathers. Teach them cause and effect, oh , and empathy.
I ride a bike.
I drive a cruise-control missile with a seven speaker stereo.
motorists can be trained en masse, with the result being a simultaneous change... much in the way MADD has changed DWI laws and reactions.
What exactly will you train them about and how do you propose to do it?
I use a ball peen hammer.... nuff said :lol:
Obviously a totally clueless motorist. Too bad Peter didn't get the license plate for the reporter too.
It's stories like this that debunk the myth that riding in a particular style will engender co-operation from all motorists. Some rare motorists are just a waste of protoplasm.
I don't think its even a question of engendering cooperation, riding VC (I can't believe I'm actually using the phrase that I slightly loathe, but it is a good shorthand for some of the principles of VC that I agree with, but for the record, I am NOT an disciple or follower of the church of the VC! But I digress) is simply a survival tactic.
For example, if you take the lane when appropriate, its just much safer than getting all the way over to the right side of the road. At some point some @sshole cager is going to buzz you for riding on "his" road and if you are in the center of the lane, at least you have some room to bail out.
Don't forget public school education. Hawaii has the bike safety program in the 4th grade, which has yielded good results.
Lafayette Parish, Louisiana was teaching the LAB Kids II course at the 6th grade level in all public schools, until the funding ran out. While that program had been going for only a few years, the Lafayette area is the only area in the state where cyclist deaths on the road declined.
Attack the problem the way Mother Nature attacks a mountain: from all possible angles, with many different methods, great patience, and never give up. After a few eons, no more mountain.
There ain't no magic pill.
Actually that is the best route for training... start at the elementary level (like I was taught back in the early 60's) with some basic bike handling and safety, then at the Middle school level go into safe traffic techniques. Then finally at the high school level a full 2 semesters of training by simulator, some on road, coverage of laws and ethics (the "why" we should treat each other well on the road). Then the new driver earns their license through a comprehensive test and is followed by at least a 2 year probation period.
All this serves to slowly integrate the student into the roadway use system, by first teaching cycling and the mechanics of road use, and then culminating in the finer aspects of not only road use, but also the reasoning behind it. Makes for smart drivers, not just rote drivers.
Beyond that, incentive programs from the insurance companies (in conjunction with the states... who control insurance) for continual education.
All of this should put the US on par with many other industrialized countries driver education programs... and encourage cycling at the same time.
Check out this wiki on drivers licenses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver's_license
Look in particular at New Zealand and Australia
And yes NZ and Oz have a dramatically lower death rate by auto per capita than the US
What exactly will you train them about and how do you propose to do it?
Well, rather than me trying to set up what I think drivers should learn, I would suggest that the US look at the programs of other countries and try to emulate that... recall the wiki I mentioned earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver's_license
But at a minimum I would suggest teaching the rights and ethics of sharing the road, of driving friendly, and obviously that cyclists have rights too.
If I personally did nothing else, I would pass out flyers at a DMV that looked like this:
http://www.scorcher.org/screed/pdf/trafficandlaw.pdf
The information is out there, other countries do a better job, so it is only a matter of following what those other countries do.
But at my personal level, all I can do is write my representitives, work with local news organizations, lobby my local bike organization, and rally other cyclists to push for this as well as suggest that other cyclists also get trained.
Obviously a totally clueless motorist. Too bad Peter didn't get the license plate for the reporter too.
It's stories like this that debunk the myth that riding in a particular style will engender co-operation from all motorists. Some rare motorists are just a waste of protoplasm.
I dont think he was clueless at all. Welcome to daily cycling.
I dont think he was clueless at all. Welcome to daily cycling.
Indeed, that is the daily experience of most cyclists who have not been trained to ride in a manner that is based on the study of the causes of bike-car collisions and the methodology to avoid them. Not that riding more visible and predictably eliminates such incidents, but it reduces them from being daily, to being encounted only a few times a year. A huge improvement.
I bet a trained cyclist has fewer encounters with bad motorists than untrained cyclists would continue to have even if motorist training improved the driving of 90% of the motorists out there.
Indeed, that is the daily experience of most cyclists who have not been trained to ride in a manner that is based on the study of the causes of bike-car collisions and the methodology to avoid them. Not that riding more visible and predictably eliminates such incidents, but it reduces them from being daily, to being encounted only a few times a year. A huge improvement.
While training cyclists to ride in a safer manner more consistent with other traffic would indeed perhaps reduce the number of incidents (especially considering changing such bad habits as wrong way riding, red light running, weaving in and out of parked cars, sidewalk riding... to name a few), there are motorists that clearly are going to go on a do what they believe is the right thing for "all those bikes that don't belong on their roads," as Peter's experience clearly shows.
I bet a trained cyclist has fewer encounters with bad motorists than untrained cyclists would continue to have even if motorist training improved the driving of 90% of the motorists out there.
Probably a fair bet... honestly.
I dont think he was clueless at all. Welcome to daily cycling.
I don't get this daily... I do get something like this every now and then... and every time I have had a chance to talk to the motorist, I have discovered that they believed that bikes did not belong on the road, or that they should not be ridden in "that manner" (such as making a legal left turn from a left turn lane).
Indeed, that is the daily experience of most cyclists who have not been trained to ride in a manner that is based on the study of the causes of bike-car collisions and the methodology to avoid them. Not that riding more visible and predictably eliminates such incidents, but it reduces them from being daily, to being encounted only a few times a year. A huge improvement.
I bet a trained cyclist has fewer encounters with bad motorists than untrained cyclists would continue to have even if motorist training improved the driving of 90% of the motorists out there.
Who in the hell trains to go ride in public?
Who in the hell trains to go ride in public?
I did, and I know at least a dozen other folks that did too.
I did it in spite of some 30 years of cycling experience... I wanted to know if there was some subtle thing I was missing... basically it re-affirmed that what I do is right, and reminded me to do a few things I had become complacent about.
Try it, you might be surprised... take a friend.
Of course for every one of us, there are probably a hundred motorists that could use better training on how to drive friendlier and more defensively too.
There is a CAN-BIKE course for traffic riding here in Toronto as well.
Supposed to be pretty good.
I did, and I know at least a dozen other folks that did too.
I did it in spite of some 30 years of cycling experience... I wanted to know if there was some subtle thing I was missing... basically it re-affirmed that what I do is right, and reminded me to do a few things I had become complacent about.
Try it, you might be surprised... take a friend.
Of course for every one of us, there are probably a hundred motorists that could use better training on how to drive friendlier and more defensively too.
Dont have friends and i ride less then 2 miles in traffic.
Dont have friends and i ride less then 2 miles in traffic.
Ride further, meet new people, see interesting new places.
2 mile in traffic to get to the bikepath. LOL I ride more then 2 total miles.
When I can destroy a car and kill it's driver with my bike I will concentrate on defensive riding like I do when I drive defensively. :lol:
With great power comes great responsibility, and over 100 horses at your toe is great power.
Actually that is the best route for training... start at the elementary level (like I was taught back in the early 60's) with some basic bike handling and safety, then at the Middle school level go into safe traffic techniques. Then finally at the high school level a full 2 semesters of training by simulator, some on road, coverage of laws and ethics (the "why" we should treat each other well on the road). Then the new driver earns their license through a comprehensive test and is followed by at least a 2 year probation period.
Who in the hell trains to go ride in public?
I did, and I know at least a dozen other folks that did too.
I did it in spite of some 30 years of cycling experience... I wanted to know if there was some subtle thing I was missing... basically it re-affirmed that what I do is right, and reminded me to do a few things I had become complacent about.
Of course for every one of us, there are probably a hundred motorists that could use better training on how to drive friendlier and more defensively too.
For every person who would seriously suggest making riding a bike in public into a F-ing rocket science with a bureaucracy of taxpayer funded mandated public school curriculum with years of training, simulators, tests, licenses, probation, etc, I would estimate there are 10,00 people who would call such an "advocate" a dang fruitcake, at best.
For every person who would seriously suggest making riding a bike in public into a F-ing rocket science with a bureaucracy of taxpayer funded mandated public school curriculum with years of training, simulators, tests, licenses, probation, etc, I would estimate there are 10,00 people who would call such an "advocate" a dang fruitcake, at best.
Uh you need to go back and read the whole thing... I proposed better driver training, not riding a bike training. I believe that motorists need to learn how to drive better and that it should start with safe bike training.
As far as "dang fruitcake..." that is pretty much the picture that most of the public has of cyclists anyway... what's new.
Yup Driver's need to be educated young about what it is they are really doing when on the roads.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=196654
Uh you need to go back and read the whole thing... I proposed better driver training, not riding a bike training. I believe that motorists need to learn how to drive better and that it should start with safe bike training.
I suggest you edit your post to make clear at what point the elementary school bike training morphs into driver training. It reads like its all about bike training courses as dreamed up by a Forester acolyte on LSD.
early on .... basic road safety IMHO should be the domain of the parents primarily.
I suggest you edit your post to make clear at what point the elementary school bike training morphs into driver training. It reads like its all about bike training courses as dreamed up by a Forester acolyte on LSD.
Bike training should occur in elementary and middle school and driver training should start in high school. At that point, a new driver should already be somewhat familiar with the basic mechanics of right of way and traffic, and ready to take on driver training.
This is very similar to the training I received in elementary school (in the early 60's) and later in high school in the (early '70s). In elementary school, we had bicycle rodeos and safety classes on Saturdays. In High School, the driver's ed took an entire semester rather than the 6 weeks it now takes.
Back in those days there was no subsequent bike training in Jr High school (now known as Middle school), but then again, everyone rode bikes to class... bicycles filled the bike racks at the schools. And nobody wore helmets.
And these were the days of cheap gas... I recall 19 and 21 cent a gallon gas... and free dishware upon a fill up.
The Bike/Driver Safety training in the Lafayette schools takes part during the physical education classes. Schools will go to great expense to teach the kids how to play touch football, softball, basketball and other sports, so it's a good time to teach them how to enjoy another physical activity safely.
Funny thing, though. I never heard of anyone getting killed because they did not know how to play touch football properly.
\
Peter Wang was pedaling "as far to the right as practicable" ... "I kept a laser-straight line and I was riding at 20 mph. I did not yell or gesture to him at all. I did not acknowledge him at all....
He WAS riding in a vehicular manner. This is all in accordance with the vehicle code.
I read that as being on the cyclist's back... that the motorist was not only a moron to a cyclist doing everything right, but that the cyclist also was on their way to or from a ride of silence... an event carried out due to the death, by auto, of fellow cyclists, perhaps by a motorist just like the "moron."
You're right - I plead bleary eyes! The OP might as well been wearing a bulls eye. I'd prefer to wear a jersey reading NRA Concealed Weapon Holder ;)
You're right - I plead bleary eyes! The OP might as well been wearing a bulls eye. I'd prefer to wear a jersey reading NRA Concealed Weapon Holder ;)
I hear the best slogan to wear is "Ex-wife Got Car."
Seems to bring out all kinds of sympathy, even from the most hard core macho males.
What irks me is the idea that some drivers have that I pose a menace to them. Combined with my bike, I weigh 220 lbs. Contrast that with vehicles that weigh ten times what I weigh.
Here in Houston, that sort of incident is all too common. Usually it is a young guy (or three) in a truck. I've learned to try to "tune out" the sound of their horn. But, about six months ago, when I ignored the horn, the guy used his front bumper to "tap" my back wheel and send me flying over the curb.
A couple of times I've been able to chase down jerks like that when they get trapped in Houston's bumper to bumper traffic. Tap on the driver's window with a u-lock and invite him to get out and discuss sharing the road. For some reason, the drivers always refuse to get out of their trucks. Their courage evaporates when their truck is not moving.
Their courage evaporates when their truck is not moving.
Isnt that the truth! untill one day you pick a fight with some punk who hides behind a gun... and with that being more common thats the reason I often let road problems stay on the road rather than settle them off of it... to many punk kids around here now.
Welcome to daily cycling.
....And that's the way it is, folks, the word from the streets, the auto wasteland daily cyclists encounter - not the armchair constructs of don quixotehead.
Bike training should occur in elementary and middle school and driver training should start in high school. At that point, a new driver should already be somewhat familiar with the basic mechanics of right of way and traffic, and ready to take on driver training.
This is very similar to the training I received in elementary school (in the early 60's) and later in high school in the (early '70s). In elementary school, we had bicycle rodeos and safety classes on Saturdays. In High School, the driver's ed took an entire semester rather than the 6 weeks it now takes.
Back in those days there was no subsequent bike training in Jr High school (now known as Middle school), but then again, everyone rode bikes to class... bicycles filled the bike racks at the schools. And nobody wore helmets.
And these were the days of cheap gas... I recall 19 and 21 cent a gallon gas... and free dishware upon a fill up.
Lets see,teach them to read or ride in elem school. What do ya think?
Isnt that the truth! untill one day you pick a fight with some punk who hides behind a gun... and with that being more common thats the reason I often let road problems stay on the road rather than settle them off of it... to many punk kids around here now.
I agree. I've been tempted many times to confront a driver but I figure if they have no respect for my life in a car, they probably wouldn't hesitate to shoot.
Lets see,teach them to read or ride in elem school. What do ya think?
What do I really think... I think we should teach them survival skills in school; reading, writing, arithmatic, driving, balancing the check book, just a name a few. I want to see shop classes brought back, as well as music.
I don't think we need to teach crappy science like "intelligent design." And I think we spend far far too much money on Football.
That's what I think.
Hey, you asked. ;)
And i think they only have so much time to spend on each course and like in my elem,non-english speaking and it brings a class to a stand still. IMO.nothing but reading,writing and math thru 5th grade should be taught.
....and a thirst for knowledge.
And i think they only have so much time to spend on each course and like in my elem,non-english speaking and it brings a class to a stand still. IMO.nothing but reading,writing and math thru 5th grade should be taught.
Seems like we found time for all the above, and biking, when I went to elementary school.
Since they still have recess and PE in school, why not add cycling to physical education aspect. Last time I checked, "dodge ball" was not something I retained to adulthood.
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