Bicycle Mechanics - Shift Lever Compatibility

I am upgraded over 20 year old (Viscount) steel frame bicycle with new components, trying to make it into a touring bike. I have an Ultegra triple front derailleur,and on the rear I installed 9 speed XT (11-34) cassette and XTR SGS derailleur. The shift levers I use are Shimano Dura-Ace downtube shift levers. Instead of being on the tube, however, I monted them on Kelly Take-Offs next to the brake levers. The front derailleur is controlled in friction mode. The rear has either friction mode or SIS mode - selectable. Everything works great in friction mode, but in the indexed mode, I don't seem to be able to adjust the travel from cog to cog right. When I can shift on the high gear side to shift down with each click, the high gear side doesn't sometimes shift up with each click of the lever and vice versa. When I adjust for good shifting on the low gear side, the high end sometimes needs two clicks to upshift. The derailleur then sometimes shifts over two cogs. It appears like the cable travel for each shift position is not compatible with the derailleur/cassette combination. Of course I don't quite know if these parts are supposed to work together, or if I have something out of adjustment. Any advice or recommendation is appreciated.

sounds like a problem with compatibility to me. Older Dura-Ace shifters are not compatible with other road components, and I seriously doubt that they will be compatible with MTB components, either. Your piecemeal approch is the problem-mixing racing shifters with off-road derailleurs is not likely to work well, if at all. Dura-Ace wasnever intended to be used with such wide range cogsets.
BTW, make sure your Viscount doesn't have the infamous aluminum "death fork". If it does, replace it. Also, have you had the frame properly and professionally spread to use the wider hubs?

Originally posted by ComPH
I am upgraded over 20 year old (Viscount) steel frame bicycle with new components, trying to make it into a touring bike. I have an Ultegra triple front derailleur,and on the rear I installed 9 speed XT (11-34) cassette and XTR SGS derailleur. The shift levers I use are Shimano Dura-Ace downtube shift levers. Instead of being on the tube, however, I monted them on Kelly Take-Offs next to the brake levers. The front derailleur is controlled in friction mode. The rear has either friction mode or SIS mode - selectable. Everything works great in friction mode, but in the indexed mode, I don't seem to be able to adjust the travel from cog to cog right. When I can shift on the high gear side to shift down with each click, the high gear side doesn't sometimes shift up with each click of the lever and vice versa. When I adjust for good shifting on the low gear side, the high end sometimes needs two clicks to upshift. The derailleur then sometimes shifts over two cogs. It appears like the cable travel for each shift position is not compatible with the derailleur/cassette combination. Of course I don't quite know if these parts are supposed to work together, or if I have something out of adjustment. Any advice or recommendation is appreciated. If it's all nine speed it should work.Could be cable tension.Correct casing setup is critical too. There is deralier adjustment advice at www.parktool.com and Sheldon Browns articles at www.harriscyclery.com. You might also have a bent derailer hanger or one out of alignment.You did have to spread the dropouts to get the wider hub in didn't you.If you went from 120 to 130 spacing the hanger would likely need to be realigned. In e can usually get away with going from 126 to 130 spacing with no changes.

Originally posted by D*Alex
sounds like a problem with compatibility to me. Older Dura-Ace shifters are not compatible with other road components, and I seriously doubt that they will be compatible with MTB components, either. Your piecemeal approch is the problem-mixing racing shifters with off-road derailleurs is not likely to work well, if at all. Dura-Ace wasnever intended to be used with such wide range cogsets.
A little bit right,but a whole lot of applesauce as usual.As I read his post it sounded like everything was 9 speed and if that is correct,then there are no compatibility issues.DA shifters have nothing to do with the range of the cogset,That's derailer business.'Knowledgeable' folks use mtb derailers and cassettes all the time with road shifters.You were right about the PRE 9 speed DA shifters/RDs being compatible ONLY with each other.There are however a few exceptions.I'll spare expalaining them,that way you won't be required to add them to an already limited, and possibly overloaded data base.

I have seen a 9spd XT rear derailleur, XT cassette, and Ultegra shifters work perfectly on a road bike before. It was this past summer when I rode across the US. The lady that rode that bike didn't have anything go wrong other than the occasional slight adjustment.

Thank you all very much for the answers. It is exactly what I was looking for. The problem for someone like myself is that here is not enough information from Shimano about what works with what - they probably do not want for people to do that, and I don't have the time and $'s to try it the hard way - even though that is exactly what I am doing. I had some really wrong but authoritatively sounding information from the bike shops here, however, they don't want for me to have fun, they want for me to buy a new bike. Little do they know that I end up spending more money on this upgrade than I would on a new bike. I did read the touring bike specs and based on that I concluded that it is o.k. to mix road on the front and mountain bike parts on the rear, that is why I tried. I just wasn't sure about the shifters or what else is likely wrong - and you've answerd it. I think that both of you are right, and that I misalligned the geometry when I spread the stays. The Dura-Ace shift levers are 9 speed and brand new. These are commonly available on the web. I did hear about the alluminum fork and appreciate the warning about the safety. The bike must be newer than from the "death fork" days, because the fork is steel and all the components are Shimano/Forge. For the tripple I had to add a new Bottom Bracket. It fit with no special effort, and so did everything else, except that the front derailler which is Dura-Ace is not fully compatible with Ultegra crankset/chainwheels. The derailler cannot be set as low to the largest ring as they recommend. It rubs against the middle chainring, which I suppose has smaller diameter on the Dura-Ace than on the Ultagra (39 teeth vs. 42). Unfortunately the bike shops didn't have matching pairs, so I took a chance there. Something the bike shop guy told me would be compatible. Originally, the bike had the shift levers at the top of the quill by the handle bar. I usually kicked the rear one when I stood up riding up the steep hill, which upshifted just as I had the least power, so I decided to move it out of the way and get the Kelly Take-offs since I was afraid to experiment with rather spendy integrated shifters. The shifters that originally came with the bike were not compatible with the Kellys, so I bought the Dura-Ace ones. I think that I should have bought the STI shifters. Anyway, as Pokey said, the whole system is 9 speed, so I will check the allignment. I really appreciate your help and advice.

Originally posted by ComPH
It fit with no special effort, and so did everything else, except that the front derailler which is Dura-Ace is not fully compatible with Ultegra crankset/chainwheels. The derailler cannot be set as low to the largest ring as they recommend. It rubs against the middle chainring, which I suppose has smaller diameter on the Dura-Ace than on the Ultagra (39 teeth vs. 42).

Are you aware that there are two different Dura-Ace FD models? The FD for a triple crank is FD7703 (22T capacity) and for a double is FD7700 (15T capacity). Capacity is calculated by subtracting the number of teeth on the smallest chainring from the largest chainring.

Originally posted by srvblues00


Are you aware that there are two different Dura-Ace FD models? The FD for a triple crank is FD7703 (22T capacity) and for a double is FD7700 (15T capacity). Capacity is calculated by subtracting the number of teeth on the smallest chainring from the largest chainring. There are supposedly compatibility issues with the DA triple front deralier and NON DA triple cranksts.

Originally posted by ComPH
I had some really wrong but authoritatively sounding information from the bike shops here, however, they don't want for me to have fun, they want for me to buy a new bike. .... Something the bike shop guy told me would be compatible. Originally, the bike had the shift levers at the top of the quill by the handle bar. Too bad about the bum advice.Too often they really don't know,but don't know enough to know it, if you get the drift.I am assuming you used proper cable stops on the downtube when you switched out the stem shifters?, and proper cable guides where needed.Also the proper length of casing loop at the rear derailer,and casing ferrels where required, as well as the recommended casing.Proper indexing,especially with higher speeds requiires everything to be just right with little room for slop.The older and many cheaper bikes often lacked proper fittings to get it right and may take some improvising.

Yes, I bought the FD7703. I think that I understand the issue. The Dura-Ace crankset has 53-39-30 chainwheels, the Ultegra has 52-42-30, so the difference beween the large and center chainrings for the Dura-Ace is larger. If one lowers the front derailleur within the specified 1-3 mm's of the large chainring, the "chain guide inner plate" of the derailleur cage is too low for the 42 tooth Ultegra center chainring, which is expected to be 39 teeth, and there is an interferece. I just raised the derailleur a little, and the combination seems to work fine, but it is against Shimano's recommendation, so I don't know what the consequence may be, since Shimano goes out of their way to specify the 1-3 mm distance. Probably the chain can jam between the derailleur and on of the chainwheels in some gear combination. I can only guess that the Ultegra front derailleur chain guide inner plate doesn't go as low, so the spacing between the large chainring and the chain guide outer plate can be within the 1-3 mm spec. BTW, the shifting lever I use has a P.N.: SL-7700, it claims to be compatible with both 8 and 9 speed Dura-Ace sprocket set, it just doesn't mention anything about the XT/XTR, so that is the reason for the original post, since I am having a problem. I'll get the allignment tool and hope to get it all work smoothly. Again, thank you all.

Originally posted by ComPH
Yes, I bought the FD7703. I think that I understand the issue. The Dura-Ace crankset has 53-39-30 chainwheels, the Ultegra has 52-42-30, so the difference beween the large and center chainrings for the Dura-Ace is larger. If one lowers the front derailleur within the specified 1-3 mm's of the large chainring, the "chain guide inner plate" of the derailleur cage is too low for the 42 tooth Ultegra center chainring, which is expected to be 39 teeth, and there is an interferece. BTW, the shifting lever I use has a P.N.: SL-7700, it claims to be compatible with both 8 and 9 speed Dura-Ace sprocket set, it just doesn't mention anything about the XT/XTR, so that is the reason for the original post, since I am having a problem. I'll get the allignment tool and hope to get it all work smoothly. Again, thank you all. The DA triple front derailer incompatibility with cranks other than DA is more critical with integrated shifters.Some have never been able to get it to work right.You have more latitude with the friction shifters.....The DA 9 speed shifters(or any 9 speed shimano shifters) are compatible with a shimano 8 speed cassette if you use them with a PRE 9 speed DA rear derailer(7400 series). Otherwise,with the exception of PRE 9 speed DA shifters/RD, ALL shimano index shifters are compatible with all shimano index(SIS) rear derailers.You just have to match the shifter speed to the # of cassette cogs.RD also has to have the capacity to shift the chosen large rear cog size.That's it,no rocket science.

I am assuming you used proper cable stops on the downtube when you switched out the stem shifters?, and proper cable guides where needed.Also the proper length of casing loop at the rear derailer,and casing ferrels where required, as well as the recommended casing.Proper indexing,especially with higher speeds requiires everything to be just right with little room for slop.The older and many cheaper bikes often lacked proper fittings to get it right and may take some improvising.

Pokey, you are so very correct. I I thought that did the best I could, but the frame doesn't have all the nice brazings as newer bikes. E.g. I used a casing under the BB to guide the front derailleur cable, because there is no guide there. The old derailleur used different system, and the casing went to it above the BB. I tried to arrange it in the way that there are no sharp bends in the cable, and it seems to work well. There is a brazed guide for the rear derailleur cable above the BB, so that worked out o.k., and I substitued longer casing by the rear derailleur, since the original one was catching on the small side of the skewer. I had to use a tie wrap about 1" from the end on the chain stay, because the casing was bending too sharply up at the point where the casing touches the brazing on the chain stay. As for casing, I used some of the leftovers from the previous installation and some of the pieces from the Kelly Take-Off kit. I didn't think that there would be too much slop, but i believe you, and I'll double check the whole setup, including the frame geometry. This is lot more fun than buying a new bike....

[i As for casing, I used some of the leftovers from the previous installation and some of the pieces from the Kelly Take-Off kit. I didn't think that there would be too much slop, but i believe you, and I'll double check the whole setup, including the frame geometry. This is lot more fun than buying a new bike.... [/B]That casing could be the problem.Many LBS will sell you proper derailer casing by the foot.Or maybe you could buy the shimano cable set that typically comes with STI or integrated shifters.I always use new on new installations.Make sure it's cut correctly without crushing it and with square end with no burrs..You should also have a cable stop for the rear cable on the downtube just below the headtube.There are clamp on types if your frame did not have something already there.It's alot more fun if it works right.

it sounded like everything was 9 speed and if that is correct,then there are no compatibility issues.




There are supposedly compatibility issues with the DA triple front deralier and NON DA triple cranksts.

Holy Contradiction, Batman!! Seems like Pokey actually misspoke??

Originally posted by D*Alex






Holy Contradiction, Batman!! Seems like Pokey actually misspoke?? Not really wise? guy.He was having trouble with the rear setup,and that was what my comment was directed at. And,he did not mention the DA Triple front derailer with ultegra crank till later. Besides, I have no trouble living with the occasional contradiction as it may occur.It's usually the result of often having to try and deal with too little information.Much less damaging than your constant stream of uninformed drivel.

Pokey, I just adjusted the frame geometry and the derailleur hanger and everything is working perfectly. I appreciate your advice. Thank you all who gave me advice.