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cheeseflavor
05-31-06, 01:42 PM
This is probably my experience (or lack thereof) talking here, so I'm asking those of you have doubtless been down this road (pun intended) before.

For the last few rides, I've been sort of struggling. Feeling rather weak - legs burning, fatigue, general lack of power, top speed seems to be suffering as a result. Average speeds are still ok, but reaching those averages day in and day out is not as easy as it was a few short weeks ago.

The two weekly club rides I participate in are relatively fast - averaging 19+ mph over 30 miles of rolling hills and I usually finish with the front pack. The last couple of rides however, it hasn't been as easy as it was earlier in the year and the problem is, I'm not sure if it's temporary or if I'm really regressing.

Over the winter, Linda and I hit the trainers hard. Lots of Spinervals with special attention to hill climbing and leg strength. Now, we pretty much just ride, with no particular thought to training.

So, am I just in a funk and will it pass, or do I need to go back to basics?

Steve

crazyb
05-31-06, 01:59 PM
This is probably my experience (or lack thereof) talking here, so I'm asking those of you have doubtless been down this road (pun intended) before.

For the last few rides, I've been sort of struggling. Feeling rather weak - legs burning, fatigue, general lack of power, top speed seems to be suffering as a result. Average speeds are still ok, but reaching those averages day in and day out is not as easy as it was a few short weeks ago.

The two weekly club rides I participate in are relatively fast - averaging 19+ mph over 30 miles of rolling hills and I usually finish with the front pack. The last couple of rides however, it hasn't been as easy as it was earlier in the year and the problem is, I'm not sure if it's temporary or if I'm really regressing.

Over the winter, Linda and I hit the trainers hard. Lots of Spinervals with special attention to hill climbing and leg strength. Now, we pretty much just ride, with no particular thought to training.

So, am I just in a funk and will it pass, or do I need to go back to basics?

Steve

Are you riding hard every day? I find that if I take a day off after a hard ride, I come back much more refreshed. This is only my 2nd year back, so I'm no expert either.

stapfam
05-31-06, 02:04 PM
Are you riding hard every day? I find that if I take a day off after a hard ride, I come back much more refreshed. This is only my 2nd year back, so I'm no expert either.

Agree here- Too much hard riding and no time to recover.

jazzy_cyclist
05-31-06, 02:36 PM
Sounds like you might be overtraining...

DnvrFox
05-31-06, 02:58 PM
Relax and smell the roses!

cyclintom
05-31-06, 03:06 PM
You shouldn't ride more than two days a week hard if you're over 50 and only 3 a week if you're under that.

You should ride a couple more days as well but you MUST ride easily with your heartrate at 60% or below. Preferably well below. What this amounts to is the almost continuous urge to speed up. The whole reason for heart rate monitors isn't to check how high your rate is but to know how low it is. That's because your recovery rides are just as important as your hard rides and they're much more difficult to judge.

jppe
05-31-06, 04:45 PM
Some other things to consider:

Have you been sleeping well? A couple night's sleep will do wonders. (I'm struggling with this one!!)

Also, after a hard ride, ride the next day- but only ride for about an hour to 1.5 hours and keep the pace/Heart Rate low. NO HAMMERING!! NONE!!! Then skip a day or two of riding and see if that doesn't help a little. Rest and Recovery are two of the most misunderstood and abused areas of riding......

Wildwood
05-31-06, 06:23 PM
Be in control of your riding habits, don't let your riding habits be in control of you.

Digital Gee
05-31-06, 06:28 PM
I suspect you've been skipping pie. Do NOT overlook the importance of a good piece of pie. It's one of the four food groups.

hammerdocnomo
05-31-06, 07:27 PM
Steve.
Ditto the comments on "over training" but it is really "under recovery".
I suggest you cut back on your training volume by 50% for 2 weeks.
Cut out the group rides for 2 weeks. Keep your heart rate below 130 bpm on all the rides for those 2 weeks.
Then line up a race or fast group ride and just hammer those guys!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck and let us know how you do.
Cheers.

cheeseflavor
05-31-06, 07:41 PM
I'm not sure I know HOW to take it easy. I mean, I try, I really try to take it easy, but the legs just start pumping and the wheels just start rolling and the wind just picks and.... well, I think you all understand. I tell myself that I'm not hurting anything... I mean, it's exercise, it MUST be good for you, right?

But today, my legs just ache. I feel like I was kicked in the glutes by a horse. The last few times out I just haven't felt strong at all. Even though I'm still able to hammer, it's more a chore than it should be.
I start thinking to myself, is my saddle too low? Is it too high? Is it too far forward? Too far back? Are my handlebars too low? What if I switched from 25c tires back to 23c? What about a compact crank?

I suspect I'm driving myself nuts, and I truly don't think I'm neurotic, but lately, I'm starting to wonder...

So, on the subject of training, let's say my max heartrate is 172 (220-my age). On a typical club ride, I'll average 145 bpm over the 30 mile course, I'll sustain 155 bpm for long (15-20 mins) stretches of time, and I'll hit my max a couple of times. I'll also take a couple of solo rides each week where I'll pretty much do the same thing. Is that overdoing it?

I just figured mileage was the factor, and not so much effort.

Thanks everyone for the advice, it is appreciated. I KNOW that what you all say is good common sense, and I will try to heed it.

Take care,

Steve

cheeseflavor
05-31-06, 07:46 PM
Steve.
Ditto the comments on "over training" but it is really "under recovery".
I suggest you cut back on your training volume by 50% for 2 weeks.

2 weeks!? :eek: :eek:

Cut out the group rides for 2 weeks.

2 weeks?! :eek: :eek:

Good luck and let us know how you do.
Cheers.

No seriously...

Wouldn't my legs just be a twigs by then? I mean, you don't use it you lose it, right? I'm not being facitious Doc, I just don't know if I could do this. All winter long I waited for these club rides.

What's next, knitting? :)

This is just too depressing...

Steve

cheeseflavor
05-31-06, 07:48 PM
I suspect you've been skipping pie. Do NOT overlook the importance of a good piece of pie. It's one of the four food groups.

Pie is the answer! How could I have forgotten the pie?

:o

Steve

cheeseflavor
05-31-06, 07:50 PM
Have you been sleeping well? A couple night's sleep will do wonders. (I'm struggling with this one!!)

Also, after a hard ride, ride the next day- but only ride for about an hour to 1.5 hours and keep the pace/Heart Rate low. NO HAMMERING!! NONE!!! Then skip a day or two of riding and see if that doesn't help a little. Rest and Recovery are two of the most misunderstood and abused areas of riding......

Thanks for the reply, jppe. And no, I haven't been sleeping particularly well. But, 5-6 hours a night is about average for me.

Steve

DnvrFox
05-31-06, 07:50 PM
I suspect you've been skipping pie. Do NOT overlook the importance of a good piece of pie. It's one of the four food groups.

The others being, of course:

milk (ice cream)
veggies (chocolate) and
breads (muffins)

rm -rf
05-31-06, 08:25 PM
You shouldn't ride more than two days a week hard if you're over 50 and only 3 a week if you're under that.

You should ride a couple more days as well but you MUST ride easily with your heartrate at 60% or below. Preferably well below. What this amounts to is the almost continuous urge to speed up. The whole reason for heart rate monitors isn't to check how high your rate is but to know how low it is. That's because your recovery rides are just as important as your hard rides and they're much more difficult to judge.

I agree about the HRM to keep my effort in check. My max heartrate is about 175, I try to keep it 125-139 on recovery rides (about 70% to 80%). But a 60% rate would be 105, I think I would fall over from going too slow?

I used to go on a fast (for me) ride on Thursdays, but I wasn't fully recovered for Saturday, and felt slow. Now I try to do Wednesday and Saturday fast rides.

ken cummings
05-31-06, 08:59 PM
I suspect you've been skipping pie. Do NOT overlook the importance of a good piece of pie. It's one of the four food groups.

Absolutely, Especially the Chocolate Chip Cookie pie available at a local pie store.

will dehne
05-31-06, 09:54 PM
I am projecting from my own experience. I have been warned not to over train but went on a fast tour for 25 riding days at over 100 miles/day. There also was a lot of training before that. Therefore I am not so sure of over training.
Here are the differences of what you do vs what I do. My HR seldom goes above 140. Typical 120 and often less than that. I sprint up to HR 160 (on occasion).
Nutrition consists of a lot of food including recovery drink of 1000 calories, steaks and potatoes.

The most important difference is that I do not try to race every day. I go far and reasonably fast but at my comfortable pace and not someone else's. I have done what you do and have also experienced fatigue.

Raketmensch
05-31-06, 10:07 PM
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got on this topic was this: You do not get stronger by training hard. You get stronger by recovering after training hard.

That sounds almost like a cliche, but it captures a kernel of truth. The purpose of training is to overstress your body, and in so doing prompt a physiological response that will enable it to respond better to such stresses in the future. The stress occurs when you train, and the response occurs when you recover. Both are necessary. Push yourself two or three days a week, and then let your body respond in the way you want it to on the in-between days.

Good luck!

Dakota
06-01-06, 02:48 AM
So, is it better to go for a short but intense 25 miler, or for the not so intense 40 miler. Which is better for excercise and conditioning? Probably a mix of the two is better, but if you could only do one type of ride, which would you choose?

My interest is in building a healthier heart and lung system. I had way too many years that I abused them, and I'm trying to fix that.

So what's better? Short and intense? Long and strong?

Personally, I'll take a good cheesecake.

Blackberry
06-01-06, 05:32 AM
2 weeks!? :eek: :eek:



2 weeks?! :eek: :eek:



No seriously...

Wouldn't my legs just be a twigs by then? I mean, you don't use it you lose it, right? I'm not being facitious Doc, I just don't know if I could do this. All winter long I waited for these club rides.

What's next, knitting? :)

This is just too depressing...

Steve

I wish I could remember who sald, "You've got to rest as hard as you train." I also wish I had listened to that wisdom before an overuse injury insisted that I take enforced rest of several months.

There's a growing body of literature about "periodization" that might help you build your speed (if that's your goal) without breaking your body apart. According to the book Bike for Life, "Periodization, in a nutshell, is a series of methodical, progressive physical challenges, PEPPERED WITH VARIETY AND PUNCTUATED WITH REST."

If you want a detailed description of how to use periodization to build fitness, check out The Ultimate Ride by Chris Carmichael (Lance's coach). Believe me, he won't have you sitting around the house knitting.

Whatever you do, please listen to your body. It's telling you something.

Trsnrtr
06-01-06, 06:05 AM
Part of the problem may stem from accumulative damage done starting a long time ago and may take more than two weeks to overcome. I've suffered this problem ever since I started riding in 1982. I love to ride. I mean really love to ride. I've never been able to rest properly, but luckily, I live in a four season climate and am generally forced to catch up on rest in the Winter.

Anyway, like cheeseflavor, I've been in a performance valley since the first of May. I blame it as much on my January riding than my April mileage. I keep extensive records and had the highest mileage January in my 25 year cycling history along with a relatively high Spring. I started noticing chronic soreness and fatigue that wouldn't go away about the first of May. I went to 60% levels and even took four days in a row off one week which is probably the first time since 2004. Finally, I felt good and rode a moderately paced century a week and a half ago. I still felt good after and continued upping my mileage until Monday of this week when I noticed I was "crashing" again; sore muscles, fatigue, no power, etc. In other words, I tried to "come back" too soon and I knew it, but I did it anyway.

To. the O.P., it may take a lot of rest, not just a couple of light weeks. Been there and done that... every darned year. I never listen to my own advice until I can't walk up a 6 step set of stairs. I can look back at my 25 years of logs and see the reason easily... January 300% higher than average, February 200% higher, March 80% higher, April 100% higher, May - KaBoom... A blind man could see it.


Dennis

GrannyGear
06-01-06, 07:55 AM
Steve, have you considered using your HRM to control your training? Checking your morning wake-up pulse to monitor over-training, setting the alarm for a heart rate that meets your goal for those days you want to keep it in the 60%'s, 70%'s, etc.

I find is surprizing how you can strategically cut back on training, still maintain your current level of fitness, and maximize rest and recovery...which will lead to your restoration. IOW, your legs won't turn to sticks or your heart to a marshmallow if you take days off, control yourself with some recovery rides, some "long slow distance" days, some short interval days (maybe after that period of rest) and some no-bike do-chores-for-Linda days. Once restored, then you can build yourself to wherever you want...as long as you keep the discipline of variety mixed with recovery.

There are natural laws that govern physical development-- and those in turn are shaped by our own unique physical attributes like heart volume, oxygen uptake, lactic acid production, metabolism, musculature, old injuries, and, yes "age".

Steve, using some sense and self-control, you could hit late summer tougher than ever. Tough minded, smart cycling will get you closer to tough-bodied cycling.

cyclintom
06-01-06, 08:44 AM
I'm not sure I know HOW to take it easy. I mean, I try, I really try to take it easy, but the legs just start pumping and the wheels just start rolling and the wind just picks and.... well, I think you all understand. I tell myself that I'm not hurting anything... I mean, it's exercise, it MUST be good for you, right?

But today, my legs just ache. I feel like I was kicked in the glutes by a horse. The last few times out I just haven't felt strong at all. Even though I'm still able to hammer, it's more a chore than it should be.
I start thinking to myself, is my saddle too low? Is it too high? Is it too far forward? Too far back? Are my handlebars too low? What if I switched from 25c tires back to 23c? What about a compact crank?

I suspect I'm driving myself nuts, and I truly don't think I'm neurotic, but lately, I'm starting to wonder...

So, on the subject of training, let's say my max heartrate is 172 (220-my age). On a typical club ride, I'll average 145 bpm over the 30 mile course, I'll sustain 155 bpm for long (15-20 mins) stretches of time, and I'll hit my max a couple of times. I'll also take a couple of solo rides each week where I'll pretty much do the same thing. Is that overdoing it?
Firstly, if your legs are aching and you feel like crap you're overtrained now. It will probably take a month to rebuild. Recovery rides are AS important as testing rides. That general achy feeling is the muscle cells being destroyed from overuse and your body trying to get rid of the waste products.

As for Max Heart Rate - don't use those numbers. You absolutely MUST use a heart rate monitor in order to find your max heart rate and you can only do that when you're completely recovered. That number of 220 - age was almost pure fabrication but as luck would have it, the better shape you're in the closer you'll match it. If you haven't been an endurance athlete for at least three or four years you won't match that profile.

I know what you mean about recovery rides turning into hammer fests but the better you get the easier it will become to ride easy. When I was at my absolute best - able to ride on the front of the local races - was when I could go out and ride 12 mph for two hours without a problem.

Before you start gaining real shape it's all hard.

big john
06-01-06, 10:05 AM
I did the Breathless Agony ride (12000 feet of climbing in 114 miles) and the next week on Mt Baldy I felt weak and older than usual. I took it easy all that week and the next climbing ride tried to have fun and keep the pace down and it really helped. Sometimes I tell jokes or stories to my riding friends and this helps to calm them down and get them out of race mode, at least for a while. I did the Heartbreak Hundred last Saturday and I still feel it now. I may do another climbing ride this Saturday but it is starting to add up again. BTW I'm 52 and 210#.

Big Paulie
06-01-06, 12:18 PM
Tough minded, smart cycling will get you closer to tough-bodied cycling.
I am neither tough minded, smart, or tough bodied...and never will be! And my hammer rides usually average right around...uh...12 mph! So there is little wonder I am a happy cyclist who plugs out 100 - 200 miles a week with little change in my waistline or average speed.

Given those modest parameters, when I'm the fastest/strongest, I've gotten plenty of sleep over the previous night or two, had a solid breakfast, and not let myself get hungry or thirsty on the ride. So sleeping and eating are my magic formula for not dropping off in "performance."

And that's why I love cycling so much! Sleeping and eating, woo hoo!!!!!!

nedgoudy
06-01-06, 12:34 PM
For the last few rides, I've been sort of struggling. Feeling rather weak - legs burning, fatigue, general lack of power, top speed seems to be suffering as a result.
Steve

Ride your bike to the Dr. the day you
do a fasting Blood Test and have em
test for a whole panel of stuff, particularly
for electrolytes. Particularly if you take
diruetics for BP.

I started having similar problems about
4 years ago and Bonked on a hot day
to the point that I almost passed out.

Turned out I had a rare issue where my
body didn't retain enough salt, and with
the bike riding in 104 degree temps, it
was a bummer for me to be taking the
diruetic BP pills.

Hell, if you have insurance, let the
professionals have a crack at it.

Good Luck,...

stonecrd
06-01-06, 12:58 PM
Like everything in nature you will go through peaks and valleys, this is why training programs are built around working toward a specific event not just being at a peak performance level 100% of the time. No one can do that. Give yourself a rest as everyone said and try mixing up your rides with some days doing endurance other days doing intervals and watch you heart rate. I never ride more than 5 days a week anymore and generally do a rest day before a tough ride and the day after. Don't feel guilty if you get busy and can't ride for 3 days in a row and don't obsess about average speed or how many miles you do in a week. It is easy to get focused on those things and get disapointed or depressed which brings you down even further.

Blackberry
06-01-06, 01:21 PM
I am neither tough minded, smart, or tough bodied...and never will be! And my hammer rides usually average right around...uh...12 mph! So there is little wonder I am a happy cyclist who plugs out 100 - 200 miles a week with little change in my waistline or average speed.

Given those modest parameters, when I'm the fastest/strongest, I've gotten plenty of sleep over the previous night or two, had a solid breakfast, and not let myself get hungry or thirsty on the ride. So sleeping and eating are my magic formula for not dropping off in "performance."

And that's why I love cycling so much! Sleeping and eating, woo hoo!!!!!!

Hey, we need to go for a ride sometime. My plan this afternoon is to take a 12-mile ramble to the swmming hole, dive in, cool off, and then ramble to the pizza palace around the corner from my house for a pie and a couple of cold ones. Then, off to home to sleep.

GrannyGear
06-01-06, 01:37 PM
I am neither tough minded, smart, or tough bodied...!!

Paulie, you may be whatever you wish, although I suspect you are far more than you'll admit right here.

My point is that if one wants to seriously improve one's speed, endurance, climbing, etc., then somewhere between putzing along (no offense to putzers) and hammering oneself senseless (no offense to the brain-fried) is the path-- which means a little bit organized, disciplined approach to conditioning your body gg over time to higher levels of physical stress

"Tough" has macho connotations...let's change that to "strengthened", or "fortified", or "higher performance"... keeping in mind these are terms as relative as we each wish them to be.

cheeseflavor
06-01-06, 01:50 PM
I want to thank everyone that replied. This is what makes this forum so valuable - you've all been through this before. I promise to take it to heart and start backing off. As a matter of fact, I took last night off completely. Tonight is a club ride, and while I can't guarantee anything, I will try to keep my effort in check. Linda will be happy to hear this :)

Also, I will start reading up on actually using my HRM for something other than a speedpometer :)

Take care,

Steve

GrannyGear
06-01-06, 01:55 PM
[QUOTE=cyclintom]

As for Max Heart Rate - don't use those numbers. You absolutely MUST use a heart rate monitor in order to find your max heart rate and you can only do that when you're completely recovered. That number of 220 - age was almost pure fabrication but as luck would have it, the better shape you're in the closer you'll match it. If you haven't been an endurance athlete for at least three or four years you won't match that profile.

.[/QUOTE

I do think HRM's are useful because they give a numerical range on which riders can peg their perceived exertion and their measured performance. This range will float over time, but a user can watch and feel their body respond over time. The prescribed"zones" may be so generalized/arbitrary as to be useless at first, but some attention to your own riding will allow you to establish your own ranges of stress and ride accordingly if you choose.

As someone who also loves to cruise down to the yogurt shop or the post office....I agree there are different styles and purposes for riding....the HRM doesn't go with me on most rides. I wear is most consistently when riding my trainier indoors.

mollusk
06-01-06, 03:18 PM
I know the feeling; been there and done that. Earlier this year I was setting personal bests on almost every ride and then hit a lull in April. Lately I've gotten back stronger than ever and have done some things that I thought I could never accomplish.

I'm guessing that you have ramped up either the mileage or intensity lately and your body needs some time to recover. I've run into the same thing where I have been riding hard a lot and then go out for a training ride and the legs just are not there. Backing off for a couple of days with some nice, easy spins (for me 3 to 4 mph slower than my normal "tempo" ride) and then I'm good as gold. Also check your hydration. If you have suddenly lost a few pounds it is probably from water that should be in your system. The suggestions from others about RHR and sleep are spot on. An elevated RHR or episodes of disturbed sleep (without something serious to worry about!) are signs to me that I need some rest.

This "lull" will pass and when it does you will be stronger than ever.

jppe
06-01-06, 04:36 PM
[QUOTE

So, on the subject of training, let's say my max heartrate is 172 (220-my age). On a typical club ride, I'll average 145 bpm over the 30 mile course, I'll sustain 155 bpm for long (15-20 mins) stretches of time, and I'll hit my max a couple of times. I'll also take a couple of solo rides each week where I'll pretty much do the same thing. Is that overdoing it?

I just figured mileage was the factor, and not so much effort.

[/QUOTE]


Okay the info above is very helpful. It is not too far off my numbers actually. As info my max is 194 and my typical average HR over the 30 mile group rides is 145-150. I usually have 5-7 mins with the HR above 170.

You've GOT to cut out a few of these harder rides for now......you can still ride but you've GOT to keep the heart rate no higher than 140........you will feel the urge to go harder but if you want to feel better you must not let the HR exceed 140. What I will often do is to still ride at the same time as the group but do the route backwards from them-it eliminates the urge to ride with them and run up your HR. The best option is to do a harder ride, do a recovery ride the next day and then rest a couple days--maybe even 3-4 with how bad you're feeling.

If you do some recovery and resting you're overall performance with continue to improve to new heights. Keep up what you're doing and unfortunately your performace will continue to decline.

Of course you will want to make sure you're getting extra fluids and proper nutrition over these days as well. And TRY and get another hour or two of sleep........I know that is pretty hard........I wrestle with it too.

Good luck!!!

stonecrd
06-02-06, 08:03 AM
Just a note on HR, my MHR = 195, I track % time in various zones for:

+50mi hard group rides
27% in 74% to 84% MHR
26% in 85% to 90% MHR
23% in >90% MHR

20mi workout rides
39% in 78% to 84% MHR
45% in 84% to 86% MHR
9% in 87% to 90% MHR

a easy spin day
100% <=82% MHR

I generally do no more than 2 hard rides a week, 0-1 easy spin day, 2 days off and 2-3 regular workout days. So 3 days a week I am generally taking it pretty easy. This has allowed me to progress my fitness. My weekly miles average 100-185/week

cheeseflavor
06-02-06, 12:00 PM
Okay the info above is very helpful. It is not too far off my numbers actually. As info my max is 194 and my typical average HR over the 30 mile group rides is 145-150. I usually have 5-7 mins with the HR above 170.

Thanks for the thorough reply, jppe! Question... how did you arrive at the figure of 194 for your MHR? The formula I've always heard used is 220-age.

Steve

Baggsy
06-02-06, 12:16 PM
How did the Club-Ride go last night Steve?

cheeseflavor
06-03-06, 12:17 AM
How did the Club-Ride go last night Steve?

CLub ride went okay Baggsy, thanks for asking. I didn't hammer as much as usual (it was sort of half and half - hammered the first half and cruised the second), but I know I still had my heart rate too high. It was a drop-dead gorgeous night here in MN both last night and again tonight.

Today, Linda and I went for an easy 20 miles, and I know my heart rate never went above 140 and was well under 120 for probably 90 percent of the ride (I haven't downloaded the stats from the HRM yet), and was under 100 for a lot of it.

I'm going heed everyone's advice and make a conscious effort to make the easy nights just that - easy.

Tuesdays and Thursdays though are still going to be hammerfests :)

Take care,

Steve

cheeseflavor
06-03-06, 12:20 AM
Just a note on HR, my MHR = 195, I track % time in various zones for:

+50mi hard group rides
27% in 74% to 84% MHR
26% in 85% to 90% MHR
23% in >90% MHR

20mi workout rides
39% in 78% to 84% MHR
45% in 84% to 86% MHR
9% in 87% to 90% MHR

a easy spin day
100% <=82% MHR

I generally do no more than 2 hard rides a week, 0-1 easy spin day, 2 days off and 2-3 regular workout days. So 3 days a week I am generally taking it pretty easy. This has allowed me to progress my fitness. My weekly miles average 100-185/week

Very interesting, and I appreciate your taking the time to respond. If I can ask, how did you arrive at your MHR?

Steve

stonecrd
06-04-06, 06:51 PM
Well, I started out with doing some sprinting on my own and that got me to about 185, then I started the fast groups rides a couple of months ago and quickly went over 190 a few time. I have officially hit 193 a 3-4 times now so I am sticking with 195 unless I manage to go over, in which case I'll up it again. So I guess the answer is trial and error.

jppe
06-04-06, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the thorough reply, jppe! Question... how did you arrive at the figure of 194 for your MHR? The formula I've always heard used is 220-age.

Steve


I did repeated "intervals" on a trainer to intentionally push the HR up as high as I could for a sustained period. It was not a pleasant experience but I was successful in getting to what I think is my Max HR. My HR generally runs somewhat higher than average so I'm not surprised my MAX is in the 190's.

oldspark
06-04-06, 08:15 PM
220- your age does not work for many many people period, and it is not any good when you are in shape either. A heart rate monitor is a good way to get a better idea of MHR, just ride for a while and put in some hard efforts (up hill is very good) and note the max you have seen over time, this will more than likely be close to your MHR. By the way I am in fairly good shape and at 55 my MHR is 194 and many people my age have reported the same or close on this forum.

DnvrFox
06-06-06, 02:36 PM
Just an update on 220-age

There is a link in the article below to an article explaining the mostly unscientific way in which this figure was derived, and how it has very little meaning, especially to a trained athlete.

Just as an example, I am 66yo, which meand my theroetical MHR is 220-66 or 154.

I was climbing a 3 mile hill today (yes, I actually did that) and took my heart rate on the way up at a brief stop. At that time it was 165, and I was in absolutely no distress. As it was about 90 degrees, I did not want to stress things any more, so I did let it slow down a bit before I started up again. I am sure I could have gone higher if I had pushed harder.

Here is an article referencing the article by an excellent personal trainer. .

http://acefitness.infopop.net/3/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=799290654&f=243296284&m=5372996296&r=627103882#627103882

If something is written down often enough, people will begin to believe it is true.

We see so often the generic Max Heart Rate calculation formula 220 - age. I hear so many people say things like:
"I'm 40 and my HR got up to 180, but I felt fine. Should I go see a doctor?"
"I'm trying to exercise in my target HR but I feel like I'm killing myself."

I'm hoping to raise people's awareness of just how flawed 220 - age is. It is not useless. It is easy to remember, easy to calculate, and may make a reasonable estimate for much of the population.

However, it has a standard error of about 10 bpm (depending on your source). Standard error means that ~67% of the population will fall within 10 beats of the formula. 95% of the population will have a range of 40 beats per minute (20 to either side). Another way to think about it is that 1/3 of your clients will fall 10 or more beats per minutes away from the 220 - age formula. 1 in 20 may be 20 beats away from the formula.

For example, say you have a 40 year old client with resting HR of 70:
220 - 40 = 180 theoretical maxHR.
Based on that, say you suggest a targetHR of 80% HRR = 158.
If your client's actual maxHR is just one standard deviation lower (170), then you've inadvertantly suggested a target of 88% of maxHRR.

The ACE Personal Trainer Manual just barely mentions this. If you want to read a lot more about it, someone recently pointed out the following excellent article:
http://faculty.css.edu/users/tboone2/asep/Robergs.doc
Highly recommended reading if you use target heart rates.