Living Car Free - Alarming SUV purchase stats from WSJ

Ah, the infamous, dreaded SUV rollover! If these things are so inherently flawed by design, and unsafe, how come we never read about an epidemic of pickup truck rollovers? There is absolutely no difference between a pickup truck and an SUV, except for the body.
Actually, due to the station wagon back and jacked suspension, SUVs prolly have a slightly higher center of gravity than your average PU truck. But I almost rolled my '84 ford ranger once, cornering with a canoe on top and a front suspension designed after the old chevy corvair suspension. :eek: And I've seen small pickups that have rolled over and crushed the roof. Three things - less passengers in a PU than an SUV to die, less women drivers in PUs, and PU trucks got their due in the 70s and early 80s for the in-cab gas tanks, which probably caused as many deaths in their time as SUV rollovers do today.

This is a false statement. My father pulled a trailer coast to coast with a family of 5 using a 6 cyclinder Dodge dart. We lived in the trailer for the summer. The Dodge lasted for years after that. The next summer he quit his job we wandered the US for a few months. Along the way he bought a new bigger trailer and we ended up going from Florida to Texas and wandered up to Canada.
I've pulled trailers just fine with a 4-cyl Subaru. SUV owners are just looking for any excuse to 'justify' their ownership of such a riduculous vehicle.

Imagine, if those who could walk, did..
i don't know anyone who chooses not to walk.

Well, define that. I mean, walking a couple of miles should be possible for most people - but I bet most of the time they drive.

We live a little more than 2 kilometers from the center of town - it took a little for us to realize that we should just walk up there - after all, it is only 20 minutes.

i don't know anyone who chooses not to walk.

You must not live in the U.S. then. Here, instead of walking into bank branches or fast food 'resturants", people use the drive through. They circle shopping mall parking lots trying to find the spot closest to the door. I have even seen co-workers (in a previous job) drive to the gym which was a pleasant five minute walk away. The paper had a story about a 'frugal' couple who moved a mile from work and still drove to work (in a large SUV). I see people take the elevator one floor (excusable when carrying stuff - doors can be tricky).

They circle shopping mall parking lots trying to find the spot closest to the door. .

I always find this behaviour really funny. You can see them going round and round, kids screaming in the back, getting really angry and frustrated - my standard technique in a busy parking lot is to find the furthest point from the entrance. You are guaranteed to find a parking spot first try and then you get a laugh by walking past the people still driving around trying to find a spot near the entrance.

Hahaha.... Yeah. I'm from Yuma, Arizona, originally... where people drive around in circles for an hour to get a chance to park under the ONLY tree in the parking lot..... doesn't matter if it's 2 miles from the door!

I drive a jetta,and I bike my kids to school in the trailer when I can. I really think people that hate SUV for the most part are just mad they can't afford one, I myself will be happy getting a Jeep, but on that note, if you can afford to drive it great! I myself don't hate SUV's, I thnk we need to get off forgen oil, yes but to blame a certian group of drivers, that is just stupid! Blame the greedy oil companys, their at fault for the insane greed factor.

Missed me on that one - I can well afford a monster SUV. My issue is very simple. THERE ARE A LOT OF US! Humans that is. One person doing almost anything shy of a nuclear bomb on a planet really doesn't matter - throw your junk in a river - it really is not important. You are a flea - no, make that smaller than a flea.

But, when there are 6 billion fleas - what we do matters. If I drive some monster gas guzzler that gets 12 miles to the gallon, but I could do just fine with a car with 30 MPH - I am consuming a non-renewable resource at a higher rate than necessary.

I don't hate the oil companies - you act like gasoline is your life blood - well, how much will you pay for life? The oil companies realize (if the general population doesn't) that eventually oil is going away - they are going to make as much as they can while they can. These are private companies, their goal for their stockholders (which are people like me and you) is to make as much profit as possible - they are required to do that by law (SEC) by the way. They are not non-profit organizations. There is no monopoly here - and if there is collusion - well, that is illegal.

If we didn't have people going around driving large, monster vehicles - perhaps we could supply our own needs - but, as long as we think that it doesn't matter, drive what you want, and we will get the oil somewhere - even if we have to spend the blood of our young people, well, we will never be independent in energy.

I personally consider it patriotic to save as much gas as I can. If gasoline is so much strategic interest to the USA - shouldn't we conserve?

Let the price at the pump just keep going up - it seems to be the only thing that works. The good ole hip-pocket nerve.

Another thing I have against monster SUVs is that if they were to hit my Honda (when I had one), I would be wiped out. So, we create a desire to buy more vehicle than we need so that we are safe in the case we hit another vehicle of similar size.

just my dos colones

If I drive some monster gas guzzler that gets 12 miles to the gallon, but I could do just fine with a car with 30 MPH - I am consuming a non-renewable resource at a higher rate than necessary.

Is it really necessary to have, say a honda that gets 40 mpg and has 190 hp, to carry one person? A gallon of gas still generates 5500 BTU, no matter in what vehicle it is burned.

As far as the non-renewable part that is true, looks like we will have burned all the oil in a mere 160 years that took millions of years to produce. No one thing can replace that energy source, so what the hell lets burn it all and get on with solar or what ever the US military is working on. Talk about waste, their megga vehicles only get 2 mpg.

I drive a jetta,and I bike my kids to school in the trailer when I can. I really think people that hate SUV for the most part are just mad they can't afford one, I myself will be happy getting a Jeep, but on that note, if you can afford to drive it great! I myself don't hate SUV's, I thnk we need to get off forgen oil, yes but to blame a certian group of drivers, that is just stupid! Blame the greedy oil companys, their at fault for the insane greed factor.

I hate SUVs and I can most certainly afford one. Instead I drive an AWD BMW station wagon. I hate SUVs because they are so completely unnecessary. Their owners are burning extra gas and endangering themselves and others just to make a fashion statement.

BTW What am I supposed to be blaming the oil companies for. They are not responsible for the SUV craze.

Is it really necessary to have, say a honda that gets 40 mpg and has 190 hp, to carry one person? A gallon of gas still generates 5500 BTU, no matter in what vehicle it is burned.


Perhaps not but it is still better than a Hummer H2 getting 12mpg and carrying one person. In some ways it might be better than a Hummer carrying two people.

115,000 btu's actually

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

I thnk we need to get off forgen oil, yes but to blame a certian group of drivers, that is just stupid! Blame the greedy oil companys, their at fault for the insane greed factor.

Ummm what?? What are the oil companies doing? If they didn't sell us foreign oil, our gasoline would be much more expensive. Do you consider that greedy? I don't understand this comment at all.

Perhaps not but it is still better than a Hummer H2 getting 12mpg and carrying one person. In some ways it might be better than a Hummer carrying two people.

If you're real lucky and drive conservatively like I practice you might get 12 MPH. From what I've read single digits is more common with the fools who drive those things.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/auto/review/hummer_h2.htm

Ummm what?? What are the oil companies doing? If they didn't sell us foreign oil, our gasoline would be much more expensive. Do you consider that greedy? I don't understand this comment at all.

If I could be assured that no ME oil was being allowed into the country then I would be much more comfortable driving the wife's vehicle in a responsible manner. This will never happen in a world market of oil so I am cognizant--as people should be--that a healthy percentage of the money I pay at the pump ends up in the banks of terrorist sponsoring nations. Let's not forget that the 9/11 plot was paid for by Saudia Arabian banks--our friends, right?

If I could be assured that no ME oil was being allowed into the country then I would be much more comfortable driving the wife's vehicle in a responsible manner. This will never happen in a world market of oil so I am cognizant--as people should be--that a healthy percentage of the money I pay at the pump ends up in the banks of terrorist sponsoring nations. Let's not forget that the 9/11 plot was paid for by Saudia Arabian banks--our friends, right?

If they didn't allow ME oil into the country, the cost of oil in this country would skyrocket. Which would you prefer?

I really think people that hate SUV for the most part are just mad they can't afford one

LOL! Reminds me of a recent quote by a huge developer who said something like "they're not McMansions, they're mansions. People call them McMansions because they can't afford one and are envious of those who can."

Riiight. Just keep telling yourself it's a sour grape thing and maybe you won't realize people are making fun of you.

Show me a car that can tow a 4500 lb boat safely and I'll buy it.

Until then, I'm keeping my truck. It gets 16-18 mpg, I usually only drive it to work 1-2 days per week, and I drove it just over 12,000 miles last year, which includes two trips from WI to the Gulf with my boat. That's 706 gallons of gas (4 more gallons if you count the gas used by the boat). If I drove a car that got 30 mpg and stopped riding my bike I would not be able to tow my boat, and my miles per year would be closer to 20-25,000 (I find that if I drive to work I tend to go out at lunch more often also, leading to MANY more miles than just what I cycle today). That's 667-833 gallons of gas. In other words, comparing my purchase of a truck to someone else who drives and saying my choice is irresponsible is nonsense. We use the same amount of gas.

You will say, but continue to ride and buy a car...well, back to my first statement...show me a car that can tow 4500 lbs safely.

Show me a car that can tow a 4500 lb boat safely and I'll buy it.

Until then, I'm keeping my truck. It gets 16-18 mpg, I usually only drive it to work 1-2 days per week, and I drove it just over 12,000 miles last year, which includes two trips from WI to the Gulf with my boat. That's 706 gallons of gas (4 more gallons if you count the gas used by the boat). If I drove a car that got 30 mpg and stopped riding my bike I would not be able to tow my boat, and my miles per year would be closer to 20-25,000 (I find that if I drive to work I tend to go out at lunch more often also, leading to MANY more miles than just what I cycle today). That's 667-833 gallons of gas. In other words, comparing my purchase of a truck to someone else who drives and saying my choice is irresponsible is nonsense. We use the same amount of gas.

You will say, but continue to ride and buy a car...well, back to my first statement...show me a car that can tow 4500 lbs safely.

Well given that the average annual mileage in the U.S. is 12-15,000, you could be using a lot more gas than someone who commutes by car every day in a car that gets 30 mpg but never takes public transport and never rides a bike. Towing a 4500 lb boat around the country is hardly an earth friendly hobby.

In any case most SUVs never tow anything or do anything a minivan or car couldn't do equally well.

Show me a car that can tow a 4500 lb boat safely and I'll buy it.

Until then, I'm keeping my truck. It gets 16-18 mpg, I usually only drive it to work 1-2 days per week, and I drove it just over 12,000 miles last year, which includes two trips from WI to the Gulf with my boat. That's 706 gallons of gas (4 more gallons if you count the gas used by the boat). If I drove a car that got 30 mpg and stopped riding my bike I would not be able to tow my boat, and my miles per year would be closer to 20-25,000 (I find that if I drive to work I tend to go out at lunch more often also, leading to MANY more miles than just what I cycle today). That's 667-833 gallons of gas. In other words, comparing my purchase of a truck to someone else who drives and saying my choice is irresponsible is nonsense. We use the same amount of gas.

You will say, but continue to ride and buy a car...well, back to my first statement...show me a car that can tow 4500 lbs safely.

You used 500-700 galons of gas to tote a boat around, and used up only 4 galons in the boat? What is that around 10 miles? Do what makes you happy, but that sounds really odd to me.

You used 500-700 galons of gas to tote a boat around, and used up only 4 galons in the boat? What is that around 10 miles? Do what makes you happy, but that sounds really odd to me.

Boat is a sailboat. Used gas to get out of harbor, then sails.

So are Jeeps on you're hate list too?

It won't happen because our industry needs the same $/BTU as the rest of the world to be competitive, but in answer to your question, yes. The rest of the world certainly doesn't care where it comes from for example take a look at China, Russia, and even France who are cozying up with Iran by refusing to side with the rest of the sane world by imposing sanctions through the UN.


If they didn't allow ME oil into the country, the cost of oil in this country would skyrocket. Which would you prefer?

It won't happen because our industry needs the same $/BTU as the rest of the world to be competitive, but in answer to your question, yes. The rest of the world certainly doesn't care where it comes from for example take a look at China, Russia, and even France who are cozying up with Iran by refusing to side with the rest of the sane world by imposing sanctions through the UN.

better check that again, GWB and crew seem to have changed their tune recently LOL, and I have a hard time calling the actions of the US sane by any stretch of the word

I'm not going to hold my breath. I'll be surprised if China, Russia, and France--the veto holders on the security council--actually impose anything against Iran despite all of Bush's saber rattling of late.


better check that again, GWB and crew seem to have changed their tune recently LOL, and I have a hard time calling the actions of the US sane by any stretch of the word

So are Jeeps on you're hate list too?

Last I checked, Jeeps were SUVs.

Jeeps are better than SUV's, Jeeps are the real deal; Jeeps are part of the reasion we are free.

xmdude, my friend had an original military jeep from the sixties that had been painstakingly reconstructed from parts left from when it was decommissioned. It was light, practical, fuel efficient, and extremely capable offroad. None of that applies to the modern version that Chrysler offers to the public. I just hope we don't have to fight a war of attrition with vehicles like hummers and M1A2, we'll be wishing we had the jeep again.

Okay - I am about to show how old I am - I had a Willies Jeep. Okay, it was old at the time - and I was a teenager - but what a beast!

Top speed - 55 miles an hour - this was good because at times the brakes would go - until we finally rebuilt the master cylinder.

You are right - the Chrysler version is nothing like it.

Down here we have Landcruisers and Land Rovers - old ones. Diesel - you can pedal faster I think - but they just won't die.

the Chrysler version is nothing like it.
True the newer ones are better in many ways, how ever I consider the Wrangler the onlt true jeep left and it is what an SUV should be not an overpriced over weight pillow barge, most SUV's now are oversized station wagons.

Since the meaning of SUV is Sport Utility Vehicle - and the Jeep was really a military vehicle - perhaps it should be said the a Jeep is not a SUV - instead of the other way around.

Since the meaning of SUV is Sport Utility Vehicle - and the Jeep was really a military vehicle - perhaps it should be said the a Jeep is not a SUV - instead of the other way around.

The Hummer H1 is also really a military vehicle (but unlike the original Jeeps and Landrovers totally over the top for civilian use). The the other Hummers are just trading on the name/image just like modern jeeps.

Down here we have Landcruisers and Land Rovers - old ones. Diesel - you can pedal faster I think - but they just won't die.
I had a '62 Series IIa with the 4cyl Perkins diesel in it, slow ain't the word. I think the top end was around 58 mph...and that was downhill with a 60mph tailwind:p But it was almost impossible to get stuck, you just kept gearing down.

Aaron:)

Sigh...another boring discussion of cars on the so-called carfree forum. I wish the mods would move this one!

I don't see a problem discussing how bad SUVs are in a carfree forum. Isn't bashing motor vehicles partly what the car free forum is all about. Using bikes as a transportation alternative is well covered in the commuting forum.

To continue the completely justified SUV bashing from todays NY Times:

"Collisions between an S.U.V., pickup or minivan and a car kill more people than car-to-car collisions, statistics show. When all types of crashes are considered, occupants of sport utilities and pickups actually have a higher death rate than car occupants. This is mainly because sport utilities and pickups are more likely to roll over when they strike another vehicle, a curb or a guard rail, or if they miss a turn or swerve."

So basically people are dying because some people want to make a fashion statement.

I always find this behaviour really funny. You can see them going round and round, kids screaming in the back, getting really angry and frustrated - my standard technique in a busy parking lot is to find the furthest point from the entrance. You are guaranteed to find a parking spot first try and then you get a laugh by walking past the people still driving around trying to find a spot near the entrance.

A few years ago the Philadelphia Inquirer had a great graphic. They superimposed an outline of the Cherry Hill (NJ) Mall including parking lot area on top of a map of Center City Philadelphia. Their point was that people are willing to walk great distances within a mall to go shopping, but within Philly they are detemined to have parking within a block of shopping. I was amazed at how much (wasted) space a typical mall with parking takes up.

Using bikes as a transportation alternative is well covered in the commuting forum.


Not True.

Not True.

So tell me, what is the difference between a bike used for commuting and a bike used for grocery shopping aside perhaps from bigger panniers. When I lived a car free lifestyle, I found the primary use of my bike was commuting.

So tell me, what is the difference between a bike used for commuting and a bike used for grocery shopping aside perhaps from bigger panniers. When I lived a car free lifestyle, I found the primary use of my bike was commuting.

The statement I was "not truing" is that commuters can speak intelligently about car free living. They drive. They almost disappear in bad weather in my neck of the woods. Go back and look at what I was disagreeing with. I did not say that a bike used by a car dependent commuter is physically different from the same bike used by a car free commuter, but it usually is. The car free person's bike of the same age, has more nicks and scratches from being locked in a wider variety of locations and having carried a wider variety of loads.

When there is 5 inches of snow the people with the fancy bikes and expensive accessories almost disappear from the main commuting route into DC from Virginia. The very few of us with ratty utility bikes and worn bags keep going. I notice now the same effect on the main route from Takoma Park into DC, I ride it every day in all weather with my crappy utility bike that real cyclists sneer at. They don't ride their fancy real cyclist bikes in bad weather, they come out in nice weather. From my saddle, commuting looks like an extension of recreational cycling while for me, commuting is a subset of car free living. Big difference. The person you imply, who I know examples of, who commutes miles to work in good weather but drives blocks to the grocery store, doesn't have much to say to me about transportational cycling. I know how to go to work by the same route every day and call the wife for a lift when a thunderstorm strikes. On car free I saw an example of tying two bikes together to haul a big load. On car free I saw examples of house moving by bike. On car free I got useful tips about hauling large loads with my new messenger bag. On the car free forum I learned about cargo trailers.

When there is 5 inches of snow the people with the fancy bikes and expensive accessories almost disappear from the main commuting route into DC from Virginia. The very few of us with ratty utility bikes and worn bags keep going. I notice now the same effect on the main route from Takoma Park into DC, I ride it every day in all weather with my crappy utility bike that real cyclists sneer at. They don't ride their fancy real cyclist bikes in bad weather, they come out in nice weather. From my saddle, commuting looks like an extension of recreational cycling while for me, commuting is a subset of car free living. Big difference. The person you imply, who I know examples of, who commutes miles to work in good weather but drives blocks to the grocery store, doesn't have much to say to me about transportational cycling. I know how to go to work by the same route every day and call the wife for a lift when a thunderstorm strikes. On car free I saw an example of tying two bikes together to haul a big load. On car free I saw examples of house moving by bike. On car free I got useful tips about hauling large loads with my new messenger bag. On the car free forum I learned about cargo trailers.

I have seen quite a few threads in the commuting forum dedicate to all weather bicycle use. I can't say I am surprised that some commuters "disappear" when the weather gets bad. Its not fun for them anymore. They really aren't saving much money by commuting if they have a car at home just siting in the garage though. I guess they are just doing it for the exercise (or is the traffic that bad).

They really aren't saving much money by commuting if they have a car at home just siting in the garage though. I guess they are just doing it for the exercise (or is the traffic that bad).

I save $6 a day in gas alone on my commute...

I save $6 a day in gas alone on my commute...

Which probably amounts to less than $120 a month (allowing for vacations, holidays and days when you don't drive). A nice saving but probably a relatively small fraction of what your car is really costing you. If you got rid of the car you would save a whole lot more.

I spent between $50 and $80 on gas every week.... The truck hasn't moved in 4 weeks (Bad transmission, I haven't changed it yet) So... I've saved between $200 and $320.

No payment, Title is already paid for the next 4 years, Only other cost is the insurance (about $80 wasted for the month it hasn't moved)

I'm not car-free, and probably won't be anytime in the near future, but I'm doing a LOT more on my bike than I have in a long time!

I spent between $50 and $80 on gas every week.... The truck hasn't moved in 4 weeks (Bad transmission, I haven't changed it yet) So... I've saved between $200 and $320.

No payment, Title is already paid for the next 4 years, Only other cost is the insurance (about $80 wasted for the month it hasn't moved)

I'm not car-free, and probably won't be anytime in the near future, but I'm doing a LOT more on my bike than I have in a long time!

Yikes you spend up to $80 a week on gas! I assume that is if you commute. Though you don't have a payment, you should add the cost of repairs (and your time) when you evaluate what your truck is costing you.

Repairs are usually assessed as a per mile cost.
If you don't ever drive it, your repairs are zero. Only costs are registration, insurance, possibly parking, and depreciation.

Repairs are usually assessed as a per mile cost.
If you don't ever drive it, your repairs are zero. Only costs are registration, insurance, possibly parking, and depreciation.

Depreciation? 27 year old trucks don't depreciate!!!

Repairs cost $50 for a used (but working!) transmission... I just haven't gotten around to putting it in because I'm having so much fun on my bikes.

And yes... I did the whole cost analysis thing in that thread that got moved... I think I came out with something like $480 a month averaged over the two years I've owned the truck.

Yeah... $80 a week for gas was a bit excessive, I'm not going to be using the truck for commuting and errands any more... only when I really need it. Ok... I don't really need it... it's a hobby. It's a 4x4 and I'll probably only ever drive it to take it into the mountains on some of the old trails we have... it's a blast.

Isn't this a... bike forum? Personally, I don't like cars, and feel absolutely no need to apologize for it. Cars do create a lot of wealth, true, but so do strip mining, selling crack, and weapons sales. Cars create 33% of all human-caused greenhouse gases, use a level of resources that is simply unsustainable, and make some of our cities a frigging hell-hole. Rational cost-benefit analysis is in order here. I don't know about you, but I want to be able to leave my grandchildren a planet on which they have a chance to thrive. Unless you're living in the bush somewhere, there's NO justification for an SUV. If you live NY, there's no justification for any kind of car.

Isn't this a... bike forum? Personally, I don't like cars, and feel absolutely no need to apologize for it. Cars do create a lot of wealth, true, but so do strip mining, selling crack, and weapons sales. Cars create 33% of all human-caused greenhouse gases, use a level of resources that is simply unsustainable, and make some of our cities a frigging hell-hole. Rational cost-benefit analysis is in order here. I don't know about you, but I want to be able to leave my grandchildren a planet on which they have a chance to thrive. Unless you're living in the bush somewhere, there's NO justification for an SUV. If you live NY, there's no justification for any kind of car.

Its a car free forum last I checked. I am not sure why you have such as strong opinion of how people should live in New York, you live on the other side of the country. It is true that if you never leave Manhattan, you don't need a car. However people do like to leave town on the weekend and plenty of residents work outside Manhattan. Public transport in the outer boroughs is no where near as good as Manhattan and parking is much cheaper so car ownership is common.

Absolutely, it isnt just SUV's for certain. All car makers have done this to an extent. Take the Honda accord for example. It came to the US in 1976 or 77, it has a stratified charged 1.5L engine that made about 68hp, it got about 38-42mpg real world numbers. I dont remember its curb weight but it was a small 1.6L class car at that time. Fast forward to today, same model of car now has what?200-250hp and gets only slightly less mileage and its also a much bigger car. They have taken all the efficiency gains from better machining and design plus better fuel management and other tricks to improve internal combustion engines and instead of increasing mileage theyve added power and kept the same mileage or let it slide downward a bit.

Then there's the prius which is 100% pure gimmick and no real meat or improvements behind it. It gets ok mileage, but nothing spectacular for this day and age. Counting the resources for its manufacture and operation its actually no better than an SUV.

Perception is everything, and often the first ones can be wrong huh? But its how things are sold and marketed unfortunately.

I think the best car I ever owned (efficiency wise) was a 1991 Honda Civic. It had around 90HP, weighed about 2000 lbs... and got around 50 MPG. The new civics can't compete with that. I was going to by a new civic last year, but ended up getting a 2002 BMW 330Ci as they get around the same highway gas milege... and are close to the same price (2006 Civic versus 2002 BMW). The BMW is a very nice highway cruiser when my partner and I need to make trips into the big city on the weekend... but I rollerblade or cycle to work during the week.