Living Car Free - Alarming SUV purchase stats from WSJ

"In May, many of Detroit's lower-end brands had their sales crimped. For instance, sales fell 1.5% for the Chevy Tahoe, an SUV that sells for around $37,665 to buyers averaging annual pay of less $40,000. But sales of a higher-end SUV, the Cadillac Escalade, soared 56.1%. The average buyer of an Escalade, which starts at about $53,850, makes at least $175,000 a year."

Two things are alarming. First SUV sales haven't really declined even amoung lower income buyers. Secondly, Chevy Tahoe buyers aon average spend their entire gross income for one year on their SUVs. I am not sure how they can afford this. The wealthier Cadillac Escalade buyers spend less than half their gross annual income on their SUVs.

Also interesting, the Chevy Tahoe (selling to low income families) costs about the same as a 3 series BMW.

I don't know if it's enough to make a difference but there was an article recently about how Washington goverment agencies had just placed a bunch of new orders for Escalades. The article was highlighting how those in Washington still weren't concerned about high gas prices.

I don't know how many Escalades they bought, but it might be enough to boost that statistic. Government agencies do buy a lot of government vehicles.

In a seemingly contrasting article, THIS FROM FORBES (http://www.forbes.com/personalfinance/funds/2006/06/02/general-motors-ford-0602markets07.html) says that may was a tough May for the big three US automakers and that Toyota and Honda are doing better.

Oh, the trends are shifting, no doubt.

From today's NY Times:

Sales figures reported Thursday showed that Toyota, Honda and other Asian manufacturers claimed a record 40 percent of the American market in May, when sales of fuel-efficient vehicles like the Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Hyundai Sonata all rose 20 percent or more compared with May 2005.

For Detroit companies, which have continued to aggressively market their costly new sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks despite the high gas prices, market share last month dropped to 52.9 percent — their second-lowest in history.

G.M. reported its first decline in sales of the new version of the Chevrolet Tahoe, which dropped 5.5 percent compared with 2005. G.M. has been banking on sales of its new S.U.V.'s and coming pickup trucks as the ballast for the turnaround plan it hopes will reverse its $10.6 billion 2005 loss.

S.U.V. sales also plunged at Ford, where overall sales dropped 6 percent. The compact Escape came only 18 vehicles shy of passing the Explorer, long the darling of Ford's sport utility lineup, as its most popular S.U.V.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/02/business/02auto.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Two things are alarming. First SUV sales haven't really declined even among lower income buyers. Secondly, Chevy Tahoe buyers on average spend their entire gross income for one year on their SUVs. I am not sure how they can afford this.

In the business it's called being upside down. In other words right from the day they take delivery, they owe more on the car than it's worth. There may even be a substantial balloon payment due at the end of their loan contract.

Then again, with such a big SUV maybe they don't need a house. :p

"In May, many of Detroit's lower-end brands had their sales crimped. For instance, sales fell 1.5% for the Chevy Tahoe, an SUV that sells for around $37,665 to buyers averaging annual pay of less $40,000.

That's insane.

I was making 40K a year not that long ago and there is NO WAY I had money to buy a 37K motorcar. In the New York Metro, a 40K salary means you are part of the working poor. Seriously. That is a working mans salary. Incredible.

When I made 40K, I had about $500.00 dollars (maybe) left over at the end of the month. I earned about $1,500.00 dollars net income a month from which $900.00 had to go for rent alone. Keep in mind that I lived cheaply and many others are paying much more in rent.

So I was left with $500.00 dollars a month for food, transportation, utilities, cell phone, cable, credit cards, lunch, entertainment, gifts, travel, medical and miscellaneous expenses. After paying all these expenses, where in the world are you going to get the money to pay for monthly car payments, insurance, repairs, tolls, tickets and parking? YOU CAN'T!

This is why millions in this country go bankrupt each year.

In the business it's called being upside down. In other words right from the day they take delivery, they owe more on the car than it's worth. There may even be a substantial balloon payment due at the end of their loan contract.

Then again, with such a big SUV maybe they don't need a house. :p

Someone posted an article that showed a huge portion or the majority of motorcar owners are in fact upside down on their loans. This is called working for the banks. It's a trap for millions of Americans to spend the rest of their lives in debt.

Conversely... if you can get out of debt, you will feel as free as a bird.

In 13 years, my mortgage will be paid off, no car loans of course, no credit card debt, and youngest kid will be done with college.

What will I do with all that money ?!?

Why all this negativity towards SUV's? An SUV is nothing more than a pickup truck that's been turned into a station wagon. Do you also like to rag on pickup trucks?

I drive a 2007 GMC Yukon, and its the best riding vehicle I've ever owned. I use it just like I do my 2005 BMW K1200LT motorcyle - just for special trips with my wife, or when we just want to treat ourselves. Our daily driver is a 4 cylinder 2003 Suzuki Aereo which is kind of a mini-minivan, and gets great gas mileage. I also commute to work daily on my recumbent bike, so I feel that I probably use less gas than most people, even though I drive a SUV. Oh, and all my vehicles are paid for.

I have made my living in the auto industry for the past 30 years, so I get a little ticked off at all this anti-SUV bias. The domestic auto industry is what created the middle-class in North America, and all you angry anti-car, anti-SUV, anit-everything ranters wouldn't be enjoying the standard of living you do if it wasn't for the domestic auto industry, so lighten up! Ever stop to think what would happen to YOUR standard of living if everyone stopped buying cars & SUV's tomorrow?

And besides, why should you even care how others spend their money? One thing I've learned if life is that everyone has different priorities. What rocks your boat doesn't necessarily rock mine. Live and let live, and do whatever YOU are comfortable with as far as being enviromentally responsible. Life is short, and PEAK OIL is probably just around the corner - http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ so enjoy life while you can, these are probably the best days of your lives.

FLAME SUIT ON, OVER AND OUT.

I make my living feeding the cars that you build, I work in oil exploration. But because of Peak Oil, I think that we have to move away from oil dependence ASAP, or else we won't have much of a "lifestyle" left. Not to mention we're going to have trouble feeding ourselves.

I think that's the morally responsible position to take. People with anti-car biases are justified in what they feel. Cars will be the end of us. They created the middle class, but they cannot sustain it. We have to do a severe mid-course correction in our society.






Why all this negativity towards SUV's? An SUV is nothing more than a pickup truck that's been turned into a station wagon. Do you also like to rag on pickup trucks?

I drive a 2007 GMC Yukon, and its the best riding vehicle I've ever owned. I use it just like I do my 2005 BMW K1200LT motorcyle - just for special trips with my wife, or when we just want to treat ourselves. Our daily driver is a 4 cylinder 2003 Suzuki Aereo which is kind of a mini-minivan, and gets great gas mileage. I also commute to work daily on my recumbent bike, so I feel that I probably use less gas than most people, even though I drive a SUV. Oh, and all my vehicles are paid for.

I have made my living in the auto industry for the past 30 years, so I get a little ticked off at all this anti-SUV bias. The domestic auto industry is what created the middle-class in North America, and all you angry anti-car, anti-SUV, anit-everything ranters wouldn't be enjoying the standard of living you do if it wasn't for the domestic auto industry, so lighten up! Ever stop to think what would happen to YOUR standard of living if everyone stopped buying cars & SUV's tomorrow?

And besides, why should you even care how others spend their money? One thing I've learned if life is that everyone has different priorities. What rocks your boat doesn't necessarily rock mine. Live and let live, and do whatever YOU are comfortable with as far as being enviromentally responsible. Life is short, and PEAK OIL is probably just around the corner - http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ so enjoy life while you can, these are probably the best days of your lives.

FLAME SUIT ON, OVER AND OUT.

One can hate a culture where large suv's are status/success symbols. One can be annoyed at the level of consumer debt in this country, b/c of the instability that it creates. Given the above, it is easy to blame the auto-makers for marketing said suv's just as the cigarrette manufacturers are blamed for smoking, gun manuf...
I believe in personal responsibility, and blame the consumer - and I do think oil overconsumption and debt are problems that cost society as well as the actual consumber/debter.
I don't hate suv's or have a problem w/ oil / car industry workers. But don't hurt yourself w/ those pats on the back. Our economy / middle class would have been created w/ or w/o cars. I would argue that the gas guzzlers actually hurt the economy, b/c they ship boat loads of money to middle eastern oil producers.

Why all this negativity towards SUV's? An SUV is nothing more than a pickup truck that's been turned into a station wagon. Do you also like to rag on pickup trucks?

I drive a 2007 GMC Yukon, and its the best riding vehicle I've ever owned. I use it just like I do my 2005 BMW K1200LT motorcyle - just for special trips with my wife, or when we just want to treat ourselves. .

I agree that "an SUV is nothing more than a pickup truck that's been turned into a station wagon", that's the problem. Why not just drive a station wagon. It will get better gas mileage, handle and ride better and will be safer. Not enough space, drive a minivan. For the record I drive a BMW station wagon.

Pickup trucks are great when they are being driven by the landscaper or painter. However, I don't understand why surburban office workers need to drive them (I saw one on TV complaining about the price of gas while she was sitting in her huge crew cab pickup truck).

The domestic auto industry would be in much better shape right now if it had focused a bit more on producing cars that people would want to buy while oil was cheap instead of just churning out huge SUVs. I don't fault them for producing the SUVs though, they were very profitable because many drivers were willing to overpay for a pickup truck with a station wagon body. However, they should have forseen the current level of gas prices and planned accordingly.

Owning a car just for special trips is an expensive indulgance but then again, so is garaging a car in Manhattan (which I do).

My beef against the almighty SUV is because like many american businesses its gotten help from the govt to survive. I have no problems if people want to buy and drive them, but be willing to pay for it. Remove the govt loopholes, make them subject to the same standards as all other cars or trucks, one or the other not both. Right now they enjoy truck mileage standards and car licensing fees, thats called having your cake and eating it too. By exempting them from the CAFE car fleet standards the big 3 have gotten yet another free ride paid for by john q taxpayer, this kind of nonsense needs to end with a quickness.

SUVs and other light trucks are also exempt from most car safety standards (side impact and roof pillar reinforcement, for starters), that makes 'em cheaper to build and probably contributes greatly to rollover deaths (oops, the roof collapsed!).

SUVs and other light trucks are also exempt from most car safety standards (side impact and roof pillar reinforcement, for starters), that makes 'em cheaper to build and probably contributes greatly to rollover deaths (oops, the roof collapsed!).

It most definitely contributes greatly to roll over deaths. The other contributing factor is that truck based SUVs are unstable at high speeds when changing direction. A PBS segment was talking about this. It was shot in DC by the Capitol. While it was being shot, there was an off camera bang. They turned the camera around to reveal a Chevy Blazer on its side which the driver had lost control of. You can't make this stuff up.

My beef against the almighty SUV is because like many american businesses its gotten help from the govt to survive. I have no problems if people want to buy and drive them, but be willing to pay for it. Remove the govt loopholes, make them subject to the same standards as all other cars or trucks, one or the other not both. Right now they enjoy truck mileage standards and car licensing fees, thats called having your cake and eating it too. By exempting them from the CAFE car fleet standards the big 3 have gotten yet another free ride paid for by john q taxpayer, this kind of nonsense needs to end with a quickness.

No doubt, corporate welfare at its finest -- LOL @ what some folks think is the "free-market".

I believe in personal responsibility, and blame the consumer - and I do think oil overconsumption and debt are problems that cost society as well as the actual consumber/debter.
I don't hate suv's or have a problem w/ oil / car industry workers. But don't hurt yourself w/ those pats on the back. Our economy / middle class would have been created w/ or w/o cars. I would argue that the gas guzzlers actually hurt the economy, b/c they ship boat loads of money to middle eastern oil producers.

When the problem threatens to bring down
society then it goes beyond personal
responsibility in my mind and becomes
an issue that government has a right
AND a responsibility to legislate against.

The population at large doesn't wanna let
me cultivate and personally consume
personal quantities of marajuana, and that
is there choice I guess, and likewise I say
it is time to end the addiction to oil.

And if that means outlawing any cars that
don't get 60 mpg by 2015, then BRING IT ON!

PS: I have been clean and sober for
26 years but largely due to increased
criminal penalties for grass.

If we can outlaw marajuana,
we can outlaw SUVs!

Why all this negativity towards SUV's?

As others have posted, SUV's are just an obvious target; yet another example of the stupidity of the masses--all present company excluded of course;)

Absolutely, it isnt just SUV's for certain. All car makers have done this to an extent. Take the Honda accord for example. It came to the US in 1976 or 77, it has a stratified charged 1.5L engine that made about 68hp, it got about 38-42mpg real world numbers. I dont remember its curb weight but it was a small 1.6L class car at that time. Fast forward to today, same model of car now has what?200-250hp and gets only slightly less mileage and its also a much bigger car. They have taken all the efficiency gains from better machining and design plus better fuel management and other tricks to improve internal combustion engines and instead of increasing mileage theyve added power and kept the same mileage or let it slide downward a bit.

Then there's the prius which is 100% pure gimmick and no real meat or improvements behind it. It gets ok mileage, but nothing spectacular for this day and age. Counting the resources for its manufacture and operation its actually no better than an SUV.

Perception is everything, and often the first ones can be wrong huh? But its how things are sold and marketed unfortunately.

Absolutely, it isnt just SUV's for certain. All car makers have done this to an extent. Take the Honda accord for example. It came to the US in 1976 or 77, it has a stratified charged 1.5L engine that made about 68hp, it got about 38-42mpg real world numbers. I dont remember its curb weight but it was a small 1.6L class car at that time. Fast forward to today, same model of car now has what?200-250hp and gets only slightly less mileage and its also a much bigger car. They have taken all the efficiency gains from better machining and design plus better fuel management and other tricks to improve internal combustion engines and instead of increasing mileage theyve added power and kept the same mileage or let it slide downward a bit.



But if you want something like the old Accord, you can just buy a Civic and if you want something like the old Civic, just buy a Honda Fit.

I would still rather see someone driving an Accord than an SUV, any SUV.

It most definitely contributes greatly to roll over deaths. The other contributing factor is that truck based SUVs are unstable at high speeds when changing direction. A PBS segment was talking about this. It was shot in DC by the Capitol. While it was being shot, there was an off camera bang. They turned the camera around to reveal a Chevy Blazer on its side which the driver had lost control of. You can't make this stuff up.

Ah, the infamous, dreaded SUV rollover! If these things are so inherently flawed by design, and unsafe, how come we never read about an epidemic of pickup truck rollovers? There is absolutely no difference between a pickup truck and an SUV, except for the body.

As far as special treatment for SUV's goes, when I purchased my 2007 Yukon, I had to pay an $800 "fuel consumption surcharge" (gas guzzler tax). If I had bought a GMC pickup truck instead, I would have paid nothing. To add insult to injury, I also had to pay 15% tax on the gas guzzler tax! All this, while my vehicle has Displacement on Demand, which runs the engine on 4 cylinders when cruising and not under load. Oh well, if you want to play, you have to pay!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a troll, and I would love to live car-free if possible, but here in Canada, it just ain't possible. Between the climate, the distances involved, and the pathetic public trasportation system, unless you live and work in downtown Toronto, (YUK!), it just can't be done. What I do do is try to limit my vehicle usage as much as possible by combining errands, using my motorcycle when possible, and commuting to work on my bike. On my trip to Alaska last summer, I rode my motorcycle, and got over 50mpg, while travelling between 80-120 mph the whole time, for 17,000 kilometers in 15 days. This summer, we're taking our granddaughter to the Grand Canyon with us in the Yukon, and I'm already dreading the fuel costs. When I retire in 3 years, I plan on riding my Lightfoot Ranger recumbent bicycle from coast to coast (Prince Rupert, BC to St. John's, Newfoundland).

I just hope society holds together long enough for me to accomplish these goals. Things have never been better for me, yet looked so gloomy! What was that I read somewhere, "It was the best of times and it was the worst of times" ?

Autoworker,

Would it be fair to summarize your position as saying that current automobiles are very fine products but that you anticipate some future difficulty with fueling them?

Ah, the infamous, dreaded SUV rollover! If these things are so inherently flawed by design, and unsafe, how come we never read about an epidemic of pickup truck rollovers? There is absolutely no difference between a pickup truck and an SUV, except for the body.
Don't forget the higher center of mass from the extra bodywork, the softer suspension, and wimpier sway control. Swerve back and forth in either: Most load-designed pickups will be a lesson in stiff suspension vs a lot of weight riding on stiff load hauler tires, and most suv's based on the same frames will swing, wallow, rock, and roll; outside observers can watch the passenger car tires folding under the rims if you push it.
Don't worry, pickups fall over all the time, too. People driving the big ones can't see over the pickup's enormous buttocks, and not everyone knows how to clear a blind lane, so sometimes they catch someone's front fender with the rear bumper while changing lanes. Round and round they go, just like on nascar! Look for figure 8 skid marks near freeway on/off ramps, the ones that end with gouges were made by a pickup or suv that fell over. I've watched a dually Dodge Ram trip over a Miata this way, crumpling the Miata's fender and hood, while the pickup driver went on for an inverted toboggan ride. Whoopsie! Ever seen a modern sedan on it's lid simply due to sliding on flat, clean pavement?

Why all this negativity towards SUV's? An SUV is nothing more than a pickup truck that's been turned into a station wagon. Do you also like to rag on pickup trucks?

I drive a 2007 GMC Yukon, and its the best riding vehicle I've ever owned. I use it just like I do my 2005 BMW K1200LT motorcyle - just for special trips with my wife, or when we just want to treat ourselves. Our daily driver is a 4 cylinder 2003 Suzuki Aereo which is kind of a mini-minivan, and gets great gas mileage. I also commute to work daily on my recumbent bike, so I feel that I probably use less gas than most people, even though I drive a SUV. Oh, and all my vehicles are paid for.

I have made my living in the auto industry for the past 30 years, so I get a little ticked off at all this anti-SUV bias. The domestic auto industry is what created the middle-class in North America, and all you angry anti-car, anti-SUV, anit-everything ranters wouldn't be enjoying the standard of living you do if it wasn't for the domestic auto industry, so lighten up! Ever stop to think what would happen to YOUR standard of living if everyone stopped buying cars & SUV's tomorrow?

And besides, why should you even care how others spend their money? One thing I've learned if life is that everyone has different priorities. What rocks your boat doesn't necessarily rock mine. Live and let live, and do whatever YOU are comfortable with as far as being enviromentally responsible. Life is short, and PEAK OIL is probably just around the corner - http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ so enjoy life while you can, these are probably the best days of your lives.

FLAME SUIT ON, OVER AND OUT.

If you own a boat or tow a trailer, for example, owning a SUV is just common sense or you'd have to own two cars: one for driving to work and a truck that only gets used when you have to do some hauling.

If you own a boat or tow a trailer, for example, owning a SUV is just common sense or you'd have to own two cars: one for driving to work and a truck that only gets used when you have to do some hauling.

Very few SUVs are used for towing.

As far as special treatment for SUV's goes, when I purchased my 2007 Yukon, I had to pay an $800 "fuel consumption surcharge" (gas guzzler tax). If I had bought a GMC pickup truck instead, I would have paid nothing. To add insult to injury, I also had to pay 15% tax on the gas guzzler tax! All this, while my vehicle has Displacement on Demand, which runs the engine on 4 cylinders when cruising and not under load. Oh well, if you want to play, you have to pay!


But you live in Canada, in the U.S. you probably wouldn't pay any guzzler tax.

Autoworker,

Would it be fair to summarize your position as saying that current automobiles are very fine products but that you anticipate some future difficulty with fueling them?

You got it, Pontiac!

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

"Very few SUVs are used for towing."

Sure, but mine is...I use a '99 Jeep Cherokee with roof racks to tow a 5'x8' Uhaul every time I move. It saves gas compared to hiring a moving truck, and I still get about 19 mpg with both fully loaded. Not the example we're talking about, but there is such a thing as responsible use even in the hated SUV culture. If you don't use the 4WD frequently, don't buy one...this goes for about 70 percent of owners, I'm sure.

If you own a boat or tow a trailer, for example, owning a SUV is just common sense or you'd have to own two cars: one for driving to work and a truck that only gets used when you have to do some hauling.
This is a false statement. My father pulled a trailer coast to coast with a family of 5 using a 6 cyclinder Dodge dart. We lived in the trailer for the summer. The Dodge lasted for years after that. The next summer he quit his job we wandered the US for a few months. Along the way he bought a new bigger trailer and we ended up going from Florida to Texas and wandered up to Canada.

It most definitely contributes greatly to roll over deaths. The other contributing factor is that truck based SUVs are unstable at high speeds when changing direction. A PBS segment was talking about this. It was shot in DC by the Capitol. While it was being shot, there was an off camera bang. They turned the camera around to reveal a Chevy Blazer on its side which the driver had lost control of. You can't make this stuff up.

And people don't know how to drive them. A week ago I saw a video where an SUV in the high speed lane was tapped by a small car apparently changing lanes without looking. The SUV driver must have been surprised, her SUV swerved into the wide grass median harder than she was tapped.

At this point the panic button went on Defcon 5 and the woman in the SUV swerved sharply back onto the road way. Predictably, coming back into contact with the asphalt which has higher traction than the grass caused the SUV to roll as the rear end still on the grass whipped around. The SUV rolled 8 times, bounding across traffic from the fast lane to the slow lane and off the road on the shoulder. Fortunately, the woman WAS wearing her seatbelt and only got a broken hand.

But it could have been avoided. Had she gone straight( the median was clear for a long way) she could have slowed in a straight line, recovered control of the car and then, looking for a good opportunity eased her car back into traffic and regained speed.

For sure, the little car caused it and deserves blame. But so does this womans complete inability to drive her SUV which almost killed herself and damaged the other 3 cars that she barely missed as she was tumbling.

The problem with SUV's isn't the vehicle. It's the fact that the majority of people who buy them, do so because it 'looks cool'. I own an SUV... I drive it occasionally to haul stuff, and to take trips into the mountains. yes, it goes off-road, unlike probably 99% of SUV's around the Denver Metro area.

I can't tell you how much it pisses me off to see an SUV with a lift kit, 4x4, brush guards, the whole off-road kit (One time even including a WINCH!) and the vehicles paint is flawless. Not one scratch on a 4 or 5 year old SUV fully equipped for off-road use.

What's the point? Usually they say it's for 'safety' .... they feel safer driving those big ass chunks of metal. Which is another reason the accident rates seem higher... they feel safer, so they drive more aggressive.

Safe driving? I don't need to learn how to drive! I have an SUV!

"Very few SUVs are used for towing."

Sure, but mine is...I use a '99 Jeep Cherokee with roof racks to tow a 5'x8' Uhaul every time I move. It saves gas compared to hiring a moving truck, and I still get about 19 mpg with both fully loaded. Not the example we're talking about, but there is such a thing as responsible use even in the hated SUV culture. If you dn't use the 4WD frequently, don't buy one...this goes for about 70 percent of owners, I'm sure.

I am amazed you get 19mpg from a Jeep with a fully loaded trailer and roof racks. In any case, I would rather rent a van when I need one. As for 4WD, my station wagon has permanent AWD.

I am not saying there are not people who can justify an SUV, just not the majority of people driving them.

People who buy sporty (activity) vehicles do no more activity than regular sedan driving people. I go camping, go to jogging parks, canoeing put-ins, etc. all the time, and regularly take not of the quantity of suv's, pick-ups, and cars. It's no different there than in a super market parking lot. If anything, the cars used by active people are less expensive and less likely to be an suv. SUVs are sold for the image that they create. Sure, there are some practical people who actually benefit greatly from an suv, but most just bought the image, b/c they were too lazy to live the life.

Disclaimer: my rolling internal combustion bike rack is a 4 cylinder pick-up (25 mpg real world). It was the cheapest way for me to get reliable transport at the time, and has been quite handy.

This is a false statement. My father pulled a trailer coast to coast with a family of 5 using a 6 cyclinder Dodge dart. We lived in the trailer for the summer. The Dodge lasted for years after that. The next summer he quit his job we wandered the US for a few months. Along the way he bought a new bigger trailer and we ended up going from Florida to Texas and wandered up to Canada.

getting great mileage all the way I am sure :)

Why do people making 40,000 a year buy a vehicle nearly the same price? Well,

Down here in Costa Rica, I bought a farm from an old campesino (farmer) and paid 162,000 USD for it. Half the money went to his family, and he kept the other half.

He went out and bought a brand new 4 wheel drive truck - about 30,000 dollars. Now, he only has 50,000 to live on for the rest of his life. And the truck sits there most of the time.

I bought his old Montero for 5,000 USD - which is still going strong. It gets driven at least half the time "off road" (Well, they say they are roads, but...)

It is called advertizing my friends. People making us believe we need something we don't. You see - if you have an SUV, well, you won't ever have a problem in a snow storm will you? (Never mind a front wheel drive isn't all that bad) and of course, there is a possiblity that you could go to remote places will it. Truth to tell, if you drive like they show you in those advertizements - you will have a hefty suspension repair bill... Down here we change the oil and the suspension bushings...

Regarding - "The Automobile made the middle class" - Old argument. What is better, to have a lifestyle where everything you have is yours, and you have land, ability to raise food, a home you built, etc. so that if there is a recession - well, you don't even know it.

Or, that you are living from paycheck to paycheck because you keep buying and buying to support "the economy". Sorry, what this rampant consumerism has brought is the frantic lifestyle that many of us have.

When someone leaves college - they think they need to immediately get a new car - and the debt starts. Imagine getting a used car (or better yet - none) and putting the difference into retirement?

The question that people don't ask themselves is this: "How many more years am I willing to work to pay for this trinket?" The more money you save and the earlier you save it, the sooner you don't have to work.

Many people who HAVE a lot of money (notice I didn't say, make) drive older cars - or do without. That is how you have a lot of money. Trust me, you can spend every dime you make. You have lots of examples all around you.

SUVs are merely an indicator that people want bigger and bigger, better and better - instead of what they need. I guess they are living the "good life" now, because they sure won't during retirement. The average Baby Boomer has 51,000 USD saved up for retirement. About the cost of those SUVs.

It used to be that people worked hard all their lives to provide opportunities for their family as well as something for themselves for old age. Now it is for SUVs and big screen TVs. Well, it might all work out, thoses who just riding around in big SUVs and lay around watching their big screen TVs may not live long enough to retire anyway.

Please don't try to convince me that by people spending everything they have, we are creating the American dream - more like the coming nightmare where the majority are retired, but with almost no money.

It is called advertizing my friends. People making us believe we need something we don't. You see - if you have an SUV, well, you won't ever have a problem in a snow storm will you? (Never mind a front wheel drive isn't all that bad)

Ironically, it is the SUVs that most often end up in the ditch during a snow storm. Its the combination of a high center of gravity and the idiot behind the wheel. Even RWD can work in snow with the right tires. Having said that, the best vehicle for driving in snowy conditions is probably an AWD car with snow tires. If the snow is so deep that you can't make it through in an AWD car, its probably best to stay off the road.

My co-worker has a sister who owns a Suburban. He told me a story once of how they actually PAWNED some of their possesions for gas money!:eek: (cue shock) I cannot believe people would go that low, just to drive? I mean, I guess she has like 4 kids, so they need a big vehicle, but holeeee....

My co-worker has a sister who owns a Suburban. He told me a story once of how they actually PAWNED some of their possesions for gas money!:eek: (cue shock) I cannot believe people would go that low, just to drive? I mean, I guess she has like 4 kids, so they need a big vehicle, but holeeee....

That's pretty scary. She could have saved a lot of money on gas driving a minivan instead.

One thing those WSJ average income numbers illustrate, is those with more money are usually better at managing money than those with less.

We used to make bets on how far up the road the SUV would be in the ditch. We would be cruising along at a safe speed and some fool in an SUV would pass us like we were standing still.

A lot of them don't realize that just because you can go - doesn't mean you can stop.

I don't do that down here - no snow - ever - which is how I like it.

We used to make bets on how far up the road the SUV would be in the ditch. We would be cruising along at a safe speed and some fool in an SUV would pass us like we were standing still.

A lot of them don't realize that just because you can go - doesn't mean you can stop.

I don't do that down here - no snow - ever - which is how I like it.
Hey ctreedude, can you start a thread about bike transportation and/or car-free in Costa Rica? What do
you see there? Pictures of bike transportation? I've heard good things about Costa Rica as a reasonable place.

Perhaps I will try to get some pictures - lots of cyclist here, and very good ones. Bike commuting is very, very common.

Here is a link to a story by our partner's wife about getting around here - you might enjoy it.

http://www.fincaleola.com/getting_around_in_the_campo.htm

Oh, I forgot, over on Commuting I have been writing about riding bikes here.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=196549

It's really amazing to hear all the 'excuses' folks give for owning their vehicles. Even if you give them the suburban sprawl excuse (they did make a 'choice' to live there after all) that doesn't justify owning more than the most fuel-effiecient of vehicles. If they want a vehicle for camping or hauling large items then why not rent one when it is absolutely neccessary? Even Home Depot rents trucks and trailers.

You must admit very few if any could ever 'justify' owning their vehicle and if it wasn't for all us taxpayers subsidizing their habit to the tune of $7000/yr on avgerage, then most could never afford their vehicle either. This does not even include the billions of dollars lost in oil wars. It's all a matter of priorities (http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182).

It's really amazing to hear all the 'excuses' folks give for owning their vehicles. Even if you give them the suburban sprawl excuse (they did make a 'choice' to live there after all) that doesn't justify owning more than the most fuel-effiecient of vehicles. If they want a vehicle for camping or hauling large items then why not rent one when it is absolutely neccessary? Even Home Depot rents trucks and trailers.

You must admit very few if any could ever 'justify' owning their vehicle and if it wasn't for all us taxpayers subsidizing their habit to the tune of $7000/yr on avgerage, then most could never afford their vehicle either. This does not even include the billions of dollars lost in oil wars. It's all a matter of priorities (http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182).

Given that most taxpayers own at least one vehicle, I don't think there is much cross subsidization going on. Certainly not compared to all the other government programs like medicare/social security/medicaid. As far as national priorities, the U.S. has invaded plenty of countries that didn't have oil. Even without the Iraq war our defense budget dwarfs that of every other country. We also heavily subsidize Israel. I have nothing against Isreal, but I am not sure how it is in our interests to fund them.

That said, I would love to see most of the SUVs and pickup trucks disappear from our roads, perhaps a nice big gas guzzler tax would help. Then again, perhaps not. If the WSJ numbers are correct, the average Chevy Tahoe buyer is not too smart, at least when it comes to money. It would also be nice to see fewer drive-thrus (make that no drive-thrus). Much could be done at the state/local level buy charging car/truck owners a tax based on vehicle weight and engine size rather than market value of the car (as they do in many states). Local zoning boards should ban drive-thrus which would make their towns less ugly and improve air quality.

The federal government should raise taxes on gasoline (by a dollar a gallon say). They could give the money back by adjusting income tax brackets (I doubt they would though).

I went across the country in my Jeep Cherokee... loaded down and hauling a trailer with another thousand pounds of 'stuff'.... Averaged 20 mpg. With it's little 4 cylinder engine, it may not have been the fastest thing on the road, but it maintained speed, and got us all where we were going.

So... why, exactly, do you NEED an 8 (or 10, or even 12!) cylinder monstrosity to haul your mountain bikes around??

If sales of new SUVs are so good, why do they have to 1.99 max gas price rebates in Florida and California?
SUVs are going away.

http://www.brandweek.com/bw/news/autos/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002574678

autoworker -- the writing is on the wall and I hope that you are very near retirement or else are getting yourself some training so that you can make a smooth transition to another industry.

autoworker -- the writing is on the wall and I hope that you are very near retirement or else are getting yourself some training so that you can make a smooth transition to another industry.

Thanks for your condcern, slagjumper. As a matter of fact, I can retire with a full pension any time now. I plan on working for 3 more years, or until they make me an offer I can't refuse! However, since I'm an electrician, and not a grunt on the line, (did that for 10 years, though), they're not too anxious to pay me to leave. Oh well. I just hope General Motors can keep from going bankrupt, so I can actually collect my pension.

Truth to tell, if you drive like they show you in those advertizements - you will have a hefty suspension repair bill.

I live in downtown Philadelphia, not exactly a remote location. They've been tearing up all the streets lately to re-pave them, but there is a gap of over a week between when they tear up the street and when they re-pave it. So, when they tear it up, it is really bumpy, and all the metal sewer/water/whatever holes stick up out of the ground, and it is a real mess.

When I was commuting to work last week, the road I normally go down was torn up. All the fancy SUVs were driving REAL SLOW down it, I'm guessing because they didn't want to damage the suspension. I was easily riding my mountain bike faster than any of them. (And I'm not that fast.) I found this incredibly amusing.

Imagine, if those who could bike, did...

1. You don't need such good roads - those who need a car, can go slower. After all, they don't have to make back time from being stuck in traffic jams.
2. The USA would be energy independent - therefore the Middle East wouldn't have any bearing on us at all. We wouldn't care. For example, there are more than a few places in the world where people hate each other and are fighting - and we don't even pay attention - no oil.
3. Being fat would no longer be a national epidemic.
4. Porches would come back in style - you would be able to say hello to your neighbor as they passed by.
5. The USA would lead in reduction of emissions.

Be A good citizen! Ride a Bike!

(Only slightly tongue in cheek)

By the way, I find myself having to wait for cars. I come up to a nice technical sections (barely) hoping to have a nice ride through it, and I have to wait for the cars! Bummer.

Thanks for your condcern, slagjumper. As a matter of fact, I can retire with a full pension any time now. I plan on working for 3 more years, or until they make me an offer I can't refuse! However, since I'm an electrician, and not a grunt on the line, (did that for 10 years, though), they're not too anxious to pay me to leave. Oh well. I just hope General Motors can keep from going bankrupt, so I can actually collect my pension.

I doubt they will go bankrupt anytime soon. Even if they do, your pension will probably be fairly safe. Retiree health benefits would probably disappear though.

Imagine, if those who could bike, did...



Imagine, if those who could walk, did..