Training & Nutrition - Am I a sprinter?

Hiya,

Maybe some ppl here can give me some advice re sprinters vs endurance athletes.

Basically I'm trying to figure out whether I'm more of a sprinter or endurance athlete. Stats - 1.80m (5'11) 69 kg (just over 150 pounds), about 5-6% body fat.

I have been cycling for about 10 years. Have done a lot of road races, and mostly I suffer a lot in them, ending up with cramps etc. And not from lack of training, I used to do slow rides of 80 - 120k's twice a week.

My leg press (which I have been working a lot on lately) is as follows, 18*250 kg; 16 *290kg; 14*330kg; * 12*375kg and 10*415kg. I have pressed up to 450 kg.

Is this a lot? Compared to the other thread that I have seen it is, also taking into account my "average" stats (150 pounds). I easily outsprint all my friends (when not blown after a race), I used to do very well at school 100m sprint and long jump, and I can jump extremely high.

I have been doing track lately, and it is looking promising. Any ideas out there? The fact that I am 150 pounds is worrying (I've been trying to pick up muscle mass for the last year or so), as most sprinters are hulks (80 kg's or more). Anyone in a similar situation?

From what you describe it sounds like you are more a sprinter but training for endurance where you end up suffering.If you indeed have more fast twitch speed muscles they will respond better to faster paced training such as interval sprints or lower rep explosive weight training .To gain size nutrition is important as well as you will have to eat more calories than you burn off and you will have to take in adequate protein to build muscle.

your body size is more orientated towards sprinting, not saying that you cannot be a good endurance rider, but you will most likely have a better chance beating others in the final sprint than a day long break. You want to work on your endurance though so that you can be there at the end ready for the sprint, otherwise your sprinting ability will be wasted as you will have too much ground to make up.

For sprinting you will want to work on fast twitch muscles, (which give you the explosive out of the saddle speed). Training would include jumps and leg strenght training, rather then the slow twitch (endurance) which includes long rides, and high rep low weight training. A good balance is best, but you can defintely specialized in one area and only compete in short races....

"Serious Cycling" by Ed Burke, outlines some training in which you can increase your spriting ability, and also keep your endurance in check.

personally I'd like to be well rounded, with a strenght in one particular area, for me that is climbing.... (6' and 140 lbs) but I don't want to be dropped on decents because I used it all up making a break in the climbs... but that is IMHO ;)

I recall a very crude test that roughly determines your composition of fast twitch verses slow twitch muscles as follows:
You test your standing vertical jump. A person with a higher % of slow twitch muscles will have a standing vertical jump of 24" or less. Greater than 24" equates to higher % of fast twitch muscles etc. ;)

Originally posted by Cipher
I recall a very crude test that roughly determines your composition of fast twitch verses slow twitch muscles as follows:
You test your standing vertical jump. A person with a higher % of slow twitch muscles will have a standing vertical jump of 24" or less. Greater than 24" equates to higher % of fast twitch muscles etc. ;)

There is a week long series of weight lifting tests that can be done to determine twitch ratio but

a) its innacurate (but closer than guessing)
b) every muscle group needs to be done sperately as each group will have a different ratio

If you really want to know you can also get a muscle biopsy but it is painful and canadian doctors wont do it unless there is a real need.

From what you are describing your lower body is exceptionally strong for your size. What can you do in upper body lifts. You may be neither but a pure bread lifter. I would definately say start sucking back protein and hitting the gym and drop some of your cardio and start building strenght and size. Doing cardio is all fine and dandy if you are going into endurance but for strength and power (sprinting for example) cardio should be a secondary tool and not the primary when building muscle is a concern :)

Originally posted by Zircon
Maybe some ppl here can give me some advice re sprinters vs endurance athletes.
in cycling, sprinters are endurance athletes. cipollini didn't win the sprint at milan-san remo this year without first riding 280 km of rolling roads to get to the finish line.

Ok, the deal is that I'm at the moment not really interested in road. Just not good at it. I'm trying my luck at track.

I'm pretty fast on the 200m flying start (11.3 seconds), and I think if I bulk up I can do quite a bit better. The problem is the 200m is only really used for qualifying right? And not as a race on its own :(

"From what you are describing your lower body is exceptionally strong for your size. What can you do in upper body lifts. You may be neither but a pure bread lifter. I would definately say start sucking back protein and hitting the gym and drop some of your cardio and start building strenght and size"

Yeah at gym I've been told I'm gonna hurt myself over and over again when I stack on 400+ kg :) I do Kung Fu as well, so my upper body is not too bad, although nothing compared to my legs.

You are probably right. I have cut back on cardio, but still tryin to gain weight :(. Today I'm getting this 80% protein supplement which my help things along a little.

well... lots of questions here, so i'm not sure where to start...

i have a lot of fast twitch muscles and am naturally a sprinter, but in lots of training i now do OK in more endurance stuff like mountain bike or road racing --- if i can make it to the finish i almost never loose the last few minutes!! and except for criteriums i have never

my stats: 32 years old, 6'1", 160-165lbs -- my vertical jump used to be 36" (i played volleball - it's probably only 31 or 32" now) -- don't know my leg press but i usually work legs as much as the "big guys" in the gym who lift 2-3 times what i do for chest -- i don't like leg press but do mostly lunges (not lifted much recently but last week i did 4x10 lunges with like 100kg i think)

as far as determining your muscle type... i'm just guessing, but i would think the following at better measures:
1) fast running sprint, say <12s 100m
2) fast cycling sprint (you beat all your cycling friends)
3) high vertical jump, say >26"

while lifting does tend to traing the fast-twitch muscles more than the slow-twitch, you can still be very strong and not be fast --- i.e. most body builders are NOT good sprinters, jumpers and cyclists although they are strong --- now admittedly a lot is because they are so bulky which you (like me) are not

from your description of your jump and all, you sound pretty similar to me and probably have a high percentage of fast-twitch muscles.

as far as track racing: i did a little when i was in Portland and REALLY loved it as it played to my strenghts. unfortunately i only did it that last half-season and haven't had easy access to a track since then... my understanding is that there are many different races in track and about half of them are RAW sprinting and the others invlove more sprinting that most other forms of cycling -- as the races are generally shorter and there is lots of drafting... if you specialize in JUST the sprints then the number of races is pretty limited unless you're like a pro and travel a lot...

if you have acces to a track, then go for it! i wish i had gotten into track racing in college but i didn't even know it existed...

if you're wanting to be a road or MTB cyclist you need to train for endurance --- and you can train your muscles so your endurance will improve -- then, you have the advantage of speed or burst that many other may not have or will have to work really hard to get --- "slow" people will never be truly fast no matter how hard they train, whereas natural sprinters can train to be good endurance athletes...(to an extent)

with training you can be a pretty strong cyclist of about any type (ok, if you're like me time trials are horrible as there is no sprinting and no drafting)

the natural muscle type just sets the base -- with training you can do something else pretty well...

There are basically 2 kinds of muscle fibers - slow twitch - which burn things aerobically and are endurance and fast twitch which are for strength and are anaerobic.

Some people have far more of one type than another. Interestingly enough, training does not help sprinting that much. If you don't have a high percentage of fast twitch fibers, you will never ever be competitive as a sprinter. However, most people can improve their endurance greatly with training.

Given your data above, I would think that you are more of a sprinter than anything else. I am especially inclined this way because you are lifting an impressive amount of weight.

However, I have seen people who performed badly on long rides not because they were poor endurance types but because they did not pace themselves well. Pacing is very important in a long hard ride and if you push yourself just a bit too hard, you can really struggle.

The red slow twitch endurance muscle fibers can be trained either anaerobically for bulk or aerobically for endurance and there is generally a trade off here ie bulk through moderate rep weight training or endurance through long distance aerobics and you will generally have to give up one to get more of the other.However the white fast twitch fibers when trained anaerobically through sprints or low rep heavy explosive weight training will develop functional size and strength.This is what I suggest you focus on if you want to focus on speed and is why world class sprinters have size but not bulk.This also explains why you can train the red fibers for endurance and white for speed though if you are a white fiber type you are going to have an inherent disadvantage against a well trained red fiber type in an endurance event .Also keep in mind it sounds like you are a fast metabolism type as well so will have to take in a lot of calories in the form of unrefined carbs and fats in addition to protein if you want to put on size even moreso if you do any endurance training and I suggest a full body weight training program not just leg presses focusing on compound exercises.If you want a specific weight program ask Maelstrom and he will probably help you out as he's the training routine guru lol.

Originally posted by RWTD
sprinters have size but not bulk.
:confused:
According to my Funk & Wagnalls, size is bulk. What is the difference you're describing?

Functional size/strength ie white fiber developement vesus nonfunctional size/"bulk" ie red fiber developement.

Originally posted by RWTD
If you want a specific weight program ask Maelstrom and he will probably help you out as he's the training routine guru lol.

I am? :beer:

My old coach said "You are either born a sprinter or your not."

That being said there are a lot of differnt kinds of sprinters. The Mario Cippolini type has a tremendous top end. He doesn't win with explosive power he wins because he can simply ride faster than anyone else. He gets a long lead out and by the time he hits the wind he's already over 65kph.

At the other end of the spectrum there are the guys who can get it going quick from a lower speed. If you have a lot of "snap" you usually do well in events like match sprints and the Kilo or bunch sprints without organized lead outs.

Riding the track will tell you a lot about your sprinting prowess. There are a lot of tactics involved but once you've discovered your style you'll be able to win races by using your strengths.

If you are putting up 11.3's in the flying 200 you are probably a sprinter.

That is very interesting what you say, because I have personally experienced I am much more of a snap sprinter than anything else.

I have insane strength/power for about 15 seconds ( I do sprints on a trainer in the gym, and I've bent some handlebars :) ), but when it comes to longer lead outs I don't really have the top end.

That figures though - my max power/weight ratio is higher than bigger guys, but when it comes to top end the TOTAL power output takes charge.

I did track last week and nearly won the 1 kilo against some good guys :). The track is 333m - about 70 m from the beginning of the llast lap, they started winding up from the top. I was at the bottom, and when I saw that I simply accelerated like mad and I didn't see them till 5 m before the finish line when 1 guy passed me!!! AARARARGGGHh!! Apparently I was so far ahead they though the race was over but I blew in the last 80 m or so :(

But it's definately something I may have potential with (more so than road). And it also suits my temperament. The only problem I have is positioning (I've ridden track races only twice). I get pretty nervous that close and I think I've lost out mostly because of that.

Zircon, you will get more and more comfortable with experience. Before long you'll be bumping elbows and shoulders thinking nothing of it.

Next time you race don't put your nose in the wind until you can accelerate all the way to the line. Sit on wheels. If you have good snap it's too your advantage to have the race more tactical. Even if you have to sprint from the back of the pack just wind it up and go like hell all the way in. You might get a gap that nobody will be able to bridge.

Once you've established your sprinting prowess other riders won't want to be pulling the pack with you sitting on wheels. This will work to your advantage as it generally creates disorganization in the pack.

If there are other sprinters in the pack look for the best one and shadow him. The best lead out man is another sprinter. You may have to jump before you get up to speed but if you are marking the right guy that should give you a little bit of an advantage.

In (flat) road races NEVER PUT YOUR NOSE in the wind. I sit on wheels the whole race and hope it comes down to a bunch sprint. Save your legs until the end. Mark the strong guys, you don't want to miss a split in the peloton. Going into the final kilometers look for the other sprinters and when the line is in "range" go for it!

You might get ridiculed but so what ;^) They don't give any awards to the guy who pulled the peloton the most.

Great. Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure experience will help a lot.

One of the things I'm going to do is get narrower handlebars. Those on my current track bike were for a 90 kg hulk, and I'm battling with them.

Regarding positioning, the biggest problem I have is staying close to someone's wheel. I think I will have to train with only 2-3 ppl on the track to get used to that. When I'm racing, I stay about 1.5 - 2m away from the back wheel, and there's always someone coming over the top and comfortably slotting in :/

I have to make sure I'm not right at the back of the pack because there are some ppl who are not really sprinters, and they get in the way on the last lap. It also gets very strung out in the last 300m - I can make up 20 m but not 40 in one lap!

I reckon I'll be marking someone and just sitting on his wheel.

Tell me, what are the recognised olympic track events? I am trying to pick something that will suit my physical abilities. Even though I'm small, I think the 200m flying would be cool, although I understand this is not an actual event, but just a qualifier for the 1500 match sprint?

Can someone clarify that for me, and perhaps also add on what other track events there are?

When I'm racing, I stay about 1.5 - 2m away from the back wheel, and there's always someone coming over the top and comfortably slotting in :/

you need to be a LOT closer than that - more like 1-5 INCHES!

i agree with most of the comments and advice here. i also sit on wheels until the end sprint just making sure i stay with the main group and don't get stuck behind someone.

Keep practicing, you'll get more comfortable close in.

Try riding closer but just slightly up the track. It will feel less risky and you'll keep the other riders from dropping in over the top. You don't want to be so high they slot in underneath though..

Also don't fixate on the wheel in front. Look *through* the rider. It's hard for me to explain but you don't 'focus' your vision, you see everything at once. Trust yourself. When there is danger you react quicker when you see it develope farther ahead. It also keeps you from yo-yoing.

Tactically it's better to be near the front (not at the front) even if you aren't on a wheel than be on a wheel farther back. Riding shoulder to shoulder a few guys back still nets a little shelter.

I know it's pretty tough when you're beathing hard and your HR is near max but it's part of the fun.

Track racing is the most fun you can have that close to puking.

On events. Do them all. Your results will tell you a lot.

If you want to train specifically for an event train for the Kilo. It's probably the most difficult to do well. You need explosive power to get yourself up to speed and you need endurance to hold it to the line.

If you kilo well, you'll probably do well in points races, match sprints and team events (Olympic sprint and Team Pursuit) too.

Good Pursuiters don't tend to be sprinters (there are exceptions like Mario) but I would still do the pursuit for the experience.

The events like Miss and Out, Snoballs, progressive points etc are all just variations to make going around in a circle a little more interesting. Of all the racing I"ve done, track is the most fun for me.

Ok, so maybe 5 inches from the back wheel, and overlapping to the top. I'll try that. See if the nerves of steel hold :)

WHat gym training do you guys recommend for sprinting? I think I've developed more than enough snap, but perhaps need to work more on threshhold endurance (I blew after about 1 lap - I'd like to last at least 1.5 - 2).

WHat rep range? weights? I've been told to use medium to fairly heavy weights, and use explosive efforts.

Yes I think youv'e got it right on what you need to focus on with the weights.When I train for strength/power I usually start with fairly heavy weights(after sufficient warm up )for around 6 reps and them pyramid down as low as singles and doubles(1 or 2 rep sets)while increasing the weight .Try to explode up with the weight( though due to the weight it wont actually be moving fast).Focus on compound exercises such as squats(quads),romanian deadlift(hams),regular deadlift(back),bench press(chest),clean and press(shoulder) ,standing curl(arm) and closegrip bench press (tricep). Check some of the weight training threads for Maestrom's power routines as I tend to train more instinctively not following a set routine.

One more note on close in riding. There are three safe places to ride in a group:

1- on the wheel (slightly off is ok but don't cross wheels!) 2- elbow to elbow and 3- elbow to hip.

That way if a rider drifts into you can push back or move up without getting tangled up. Keep your hands on the bars and use your elbows to create space or let someone know you are there if you need to.

Strength training is very individual. You need to experiement (keep a training journal). On the bike track your volume, intesity and I found recording my max speed (on the track) helpful. If I have a sub par night it usually shows up in my max sprint speed. Looking back in my journal lets me know if I need to take some time off or train more.

For lifting you need to balance your riding and lifting. You can get so wiped out in the gym you won't recover enough to train well on the bike. Again, your journal will tell you a lot.

My winter focus more strength oriented. I taper off during the season but have found if I don't strength train at all I lose max sprint speed as the season wears on.

Train the upperbody too. Super strong legs don't help much if your back can't stablize the power into the bike. It also helps prevent injury.

I do a whole body 3 workout split (Leg focus, Back focus & Chest/shoulder focus). It doesn't beat me up so bad I can't recover to ride well. it also allows me to hit the muscles with a variety of exercises. One of the routines is a legs focus and I do squats (or variation). The other two I'll focus on hamstrings, gastroks and/or quads. the volume isn't very high ~9 sets total per muscle group per week. ~Half of those on the focus day.

My goal is to work them hard enough that I see improvement but not so hard it takes me 4 or 5 days to recover.
Strength training is important but getting reps (specificty) on the bike is key to success. Especially in events like Match Sprinting and Points racing. The best/strongest rider doesn't always win. The rider with the best tactics does.