Road Bike Racing - Tyler Hamilton

I believe that Tyler's suspension ends late-summer 2006.

It is my belief that everyone deserves at least a second (and sometimes more) chance in life. Does anyone besides me think that there would be little downside for Discovery to sign him when his suspension is over? If they gave him the right contract with incentives and clauses regarding performance-enhancing tricks, they might get a couple great years out of him, and be able to cancel his contract if something fishy came up....

While it probably won't happen due to PR and image concerns, I think it would be Good. Disco has a big budget for R&D, which helps them to stay several steps ahead of the testers. As long as no one talks on the phone, and leaves stuff laying around the bathroom. I think Tyler would be a good addition, An American GC Contender on an American Squad.

While I've always liked Tyler and would love to see him ride again. I believe he will be viewed as "tainted merchandise" by any big name sponsor or teams. Especially in light of the recent doping scandal. Unfortunately, the recent Saiz scandal is probably just in it's infancy.

Would I like to see Tyler get a 2nd chance? Sure.

Do I think it will happen? Unlikely.

On the other hand, Richard Virenque was welcomed back with open arms. Why not Tyler? I find him much more likeable to begin with, and as long as he performs, I think people will forget the controversy surrounding him.

Virenque eventually fessed up, albiet after writing a book proclaiming his innocence.


I also think that Richard was a better rider than Tyler, Im sure ill get hell for it, but Comparing Victories, Podiums, and Awards, Tricky Dick has it hands down.

I don't think Tyler will be back at Disco. There are too many other American 'leaders' without the baggage if thats what they want - George, Tom, Levi, Floyd. I think he'll end up at a smaller team like Saunier Duval.

Sanier would be good for him, The Current Team Manager almost died in 1998 after taking injections of synthetic hemoglobin.

It would be awesome to see Hamilton be a force again, with a good team behind him. But when he returns I think he'll be around 35. I wonder if age begins being a factor at that point. I know there have been some relatively older champions, but that coupled with his recent past; he's going to have to show that he's still a top performer to get picked up.

As long as no one talks on the phone, and leaves stuff laying around the bathroom. I think Tyler would be a good addition,

:roflmao:

I always admired Hamilton as a cyclist, and for seeming to be a nice guy. But, all of the evidence suggests that he cheated throughout his last season of racing, cheated to try to win the Olympics, and then lied, and lied, and lied after getting caught.

Therefore, I don't think any team should consider hiring him until he starts telling the truth. Tells everything he knows. Names the names. Tells us who helped him cheat. Shows genuine remorse for both cheating, trying to steal the Olympic medal, and lying after he was caugt.

He also should agree to make "public service" programs that denounce cheating, drug abuse, blood doping, and lying. He needs to become a spokeman for "clean cycling".

But, allow him to race while he is still blaming his missing twin? No way.

Still a moot point isn't it? No Pro Tour team can sign him for another 2 years due to their contract with the UCI Pro Tour.

Still a moot point isn't it? No Pro Tour team can sign him for another 2 years due to their contract with the UCI Pro Tour.
Nope. I'm pretty sure that suspension began before that rule can into effect and has been ruled that he can ride for a Pro Tour team fall of 2006

Nope. I'm pretty sure that suspension began before that rule can into effect and has been ruled that he can ride for a Pro Tour team fall of 2006


Yep he and David Millar lucked out. Tyler's biggest problem other than his age will be his lack of a mia culpa. Until he openly apologises I doubt if a team like Disco could afford the bad PR to hire him. Of course he'll never admit to his doping because he wants to hang on to the pretty gold medal he stole at the Olympics.

Therefore, I don't think any team should consider hiring him until he starts telling the truth. Tells everything he knows. Names the names. Tells us who helped him cheat. Shows genuine remorse for both cheating, trying to steal the Olympic medal, and lying after he was caugt.



This is turning into the House Comittee on Un-American Activities...

Hey Alan, if Tyler came clean and told us everything he knows, and said that Lance helped him dope, and doped himself.... would you believe it?

I always admired Hamilton as a cyclist, and for seeming to be a nice guy. But, all of the evidence suggests that he cheated throughout his last season of racing, cheated to try to win the Olympics, and then lied, and lied, and lied after getting caught.

Therefore, I don't think any team should consider hiring him until he starts telling the truth. Tells everything he knows. Names the names. Tells us who helped him cheat. Shows genuine remorse for both cheating, trying to steal the Olympic medal, and lying after he was caugt.

He also should agree to make "public service" programs that denounce cheating, drug abuse, blood doping, and lying. He needs to become a spokeman for "clean cycling".



Thank you, Senator McCarthy.

While it probably won't happen due to PR and image concerns, I think it would be Good.

Disco has a big budget for R&D, which helps them to stay several steps ahead of the testers. As long as no one talks on the phone, and leaves stuff laying around the bathroom.

Is there something that you know and we don't with Disco?


S/F<
CEYA!

I always admired Hamilton as a cyclist, and for seeming to be a nice guy. But, all of the evidence suggests that he cheated throughout his last season of racing, cheated to try to win the Olympics, and then lied, and lied, and lied after getting caught.

Therefore, I don't think any team should consider hiring him until he starts telling the truth. Tells everything he knows. Names the names. Tells us who helped him cheat. Shows genuine remorse for both cheating, trying to steal the Olympic medal, and lying after he was caugt.

He also should agree to make "public service" programs that denounce cheating, drug abuse, blood doping, and lying. He needs to become a spokeman for "clean cycling".

But, allow him to race while he is still blaming his missing twin? No way.

Have we seen everything? We assume and make judgements because of what they show us. We have base this also on hearsay or public opinion.

If you are going to say he is guilty show me more proof and stuff that make sense.

S/F,
CEYA!

Is there something that you know and we don't with Disco?

It is nieve to presume that no one at Disco dopes. Even if one cannot give up a fanatical defense of Lance's clean record, at least have some doubt about how Disco was an utterly dominant support team in the last few years.

I always admired Hamilton as a cyclist, and for seeming to be a nice guy. But, all of the evidence suggests that he cheated throughout his last season of racing, cheated to try to win the Olympics, and then lied, and lied, and lied after getting caught.

Therefore, I don't think any team should consider hiring him until he starts telling the truth. Tells everything he knows. Names the names. Tells us who helped him cheat. Shows genuine remorse for both cheating, trying to steal the Olympic medal, and lying after he was caugt.

He also should agree to make "public service" programs that denounce cheating, drug abuse, blood doping, and lying. He needs to become a spokeman for "clean cycling".

But, allow him to race while he is still blaming his missing twin? No way.I don't claim to be an expert, and I'm not going to claim Tyler didn't do it, but to say that "all of the evidence suggests that he cheated" is inaccurate based on my reading of the original arbitration panel opinions. I also think it's inaccurate to say that he blamed a "missing twin." As I understand his position, it was that the phenomenon of "chimeric twins" was a known risk factor for false positives on the test that he failed and that in view of the existence of known risks for false positives, the test could not be validated, as a matter of science, without determining the rate of false positives returned by the test, which was never done. Like I say, I'm not going to say he didn't cheat, but from what I've read, concluding that all questions as to his guilt are answered by the decisions of the arbitration panel and the CAS is not quite the no-brainer that many appear to believe.

Generally speaking, I'm inclined to the view that most members of the peloton are doping, but it's easily possible to hold that view right along with the view that the integrity of WADA and its agents leaves a very great deal to be desired. I'll care two hoots about Tyler admitting his guilt right after Dick Pound admits he's an unscrupulous zealot who should never be allowed within ten miles of a test sample.

Yep he and David Millar lucked out. Tyler's biggest problem other than his age will be his lack of a mia culpa. Until he openly apologises I doubt if a team like Disco could afford the bad PR to hire him. Of course he'll never admit to his doping because he wants to hang on to the pretty gold medal he stole at the Olympics.

What is the status of that gold medal? I was under the impression that the Russian federation was going to fight to have Tyler's medal revoked so it could go to Eki

Yep he and David Millar lucked out. Tyler's biggest problem other than his age will be his lack of a mia culpa. Until he openly apologises I doubt if a team like Disco could afford the bad PR to hire him. Of course he'll never admit to his doping because he wants to hang on to the pretty gold medal he stole at the Olympics.

What is the status of that gold medal? I was under the impression that the Russian federation was going to fight to have Tyler's medal revoked so it could go to Eki

What the UK brat, David Millar is it? GOt signed up with Saunier Duval , I believe. There can be a second life, i'd hope. My question. How do such riders stay in shape after a year /two off the circuit? Cyclists might have it easier than rehabilated drug addicts in the US. ONce convicted, try and get a good job.

Sanier would be good for him, The Current Team Manager almost died in 1998 after taking injections of synthetic hemoglobin.:roflmao:


Virenque eventually fessed up, albiet after writing a book proclaiming his innocence.


I also think that Richard was a better rider than Tyler, Im sure ill get hell for it, but Comparing Victories, Podiums, and Awards, Tricky Dick has it hands down.It does seem that Tyler was more versatile than ol' tricky dick however. Tyler could time trial well and was a real stage race contender. Virenque could climb, but he got most of his points (and jerseys) by sneaking away and grabbing points mid-stage when no one else would bother.



Article on Gianetti for those interested: http://www.salon.com/health/feature/1999/04/21/cycling/index.html

I don't claim to be an expert, and I'm not going to claim Tyler didn't do it, but to say that "all of the evidence suggests that he cheated" is inaccurate based on my reading of the original arbitration panel opinions. .

If you read the Velonews article on the whole Tyler affair you may come away with a different opinion. They lay out the whole thing in context, from the first warning that Tyler received though to the end. Tyler was warned more than once BTW. They also go step by step and lay out Tyler's many and shifting defences and how they were countered. I for one was really hoping that Tyler was innocent, but after reading this I was convinced otherwise.

He sure could find the crashes pretty well.

Tyler will be racing again (met him this spring). His first race will be the World Championships this September, after that, he plans to be back on the Pro-tour next year. He has been training at home in Boulder, CO non-stop through his suspension and claims to be in better form than when he left the Vuelta. He said that a few teams were looking at adding him to their rosters but that he couldn't talk about it until a deal was set and the suspension is over.

As far as the doping charges...it sucks for everyone. Part of the problem with his defense was that he didn't argue the testing results but the methods used. Tyler remains a supporter of random testing and has been subject to tests throughout his suspension, just as when he was in the peloton.

Let's support him when he comes back...another American rider in the European peloton is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

If you read the Velonews article on the whole Tyler affair you may come away with a different opinion. They lay out the whole thing in context, from the first warning that Tyler received though to the end. Tyler was warned more than once BTW. They also go step by step and lay out Tyler's many and shifting defences and how they were countered. I for one was really hoping that Tyler was innocent, but after reading this I was convinced otherwise.

That is the most incredible thing about the whole shemozzle. The guy was given every chance to either stop cheating or prove that his blood anomolies were naturally occurring - and the dickhead still blew it. How much warning did he need? It's hard to have any sympathy for him at all.

Tyler is washed up


and his stupid dog is still dead.

+1

That is the most incredible thing about the whole shemozzle. The guy was given every chance to either stop cheating or prove that his blood anomolies were naturally occurring - and the dickhead still blew it. How much warning did he need? It's hard to have any sympathy for him at all.

I think that if we all examined our lives closely, we all have skeletons in our proverbial closets, and to be so unforgiving as to resort to name-calling is a tad on the low side of things. I guess that I am of the belief that most people are basically good and that we all screw up (more frequently than we like to admit). Short of sex crimes and murder, everyone truly deserves extra chances. Truly, I think the only person that knows the whole truth is Tyler himself, and if he can live with himself, so be it. If he is innocent, then why admit to something that he did?, if he is guilty, he will have to face his own demons.

Let's be more understanding and forgiving.

Yep he and David Millar lucked out. Tyler's biggest problem other than his age will be his lack of a mia culpa. Until he openly apologises I doubt if a team like Disco could afford the bad PR to hire him. Of course he'll never admit to his doping because he wants to hang on to the pretty gold medal he stole at the Olympics.

if everyone is doping, he didn't really steal it did he? or are you referring to something else?

if everyone is doping, he didn't really steal it did he? or are you referring to something else?

Well if they hadn't mishandled his B sample from the Olympics Eki would be the gold medal winner. Bottom line he tested positive and got away with it. Eki and Bobby J tested clean.

As for ICU Docs asking us to forgive him, personal skeletons are one thing, if he cheated on his wife sure who are we to judge. But he cheated on a world stage and won't admit to it and that is entirely different. My personal opinion and it's only my opinion if the Olympic gold wasn't an issue he would fess up and get on with it.

If you read the Velonews article on the whole Tyler affair you may come away with a different opinion. They lay out the whole thing in context, from the first warning that Tyler received though to the end. Tyler was warned more than once BTW. They also go step by step and lay out Tyler's many and shifting defences and how they were countered. I for one was really hoping that Tyler was innocent, but after reading this I was convinced otherwise.I searched on the Velonews site and was unable to discover an article such as you describe. Gotta link? I'd like to see it.

I did read the arbitration panel decision, including the dissent, which I thought made some significant points and certainly did not give the impression that there was no evidence in Hamilton's favor.

I searched on the Velonews site and was unable to discover an article such as you describe. Gotta link? I'd like to see it.

I did read the arbitration panel decision, including the dissent, which I thought made some significant points and certainly did not give the impression that there was no evidence in Hamilton's favor.

I don't know if it's on their site it was in the Mach 13th issue. It's worth the read, after reading this article which lays out the time line, how the test works and the reasons why they didn't buy into Tyler's defence I was convinced he'd doped. Prior to reading it I was on Tyler's side, he was easily my favorite rider.

To certain degree I think we'd like to believe that the tests are flawed and these guys who get caught are somehow being victimized by a system that is run by incompetent doctors. But the science is pretty good when it comes to the test that busted Tyler. It's been used in hospitals for years prior to it's use by UCI, it isn't new and untested as Tyler was trying to portray it.

Well if they hadn't mishandled his B sample from the Olympics Eki would be the gold medal winner. Bottom line he tested positive and got away with it. Eki and Bobby J tested clean.

As for ICU Docs asking us to forgive him, personal skeletons are one thing, if he cheated on his wife sure who are we to judge. But he cheated on a world stage and won't admit to it and that is entirely different. My personal opinion and it's only my opinion if the Olympic gold wasn't an issue he would fess up and get on with it.

i may be confusing you with smoothie, but, don't you assume julich and ekimov were also doping. are you only chiding tyler for not admitting it? it's not like eki or julich admitted it, and we don't know if they would or wouldn't if they got caught.

if they all dope, i'm hesitant to call out the dudes he get caught and then don't admit it.

I don't know if it's on their site it was in the Mach 13th issue. It's worth the read, after reading this article which lays out the time line, how the test works and the reasons why they didn't buy into Tyler's defence I was convinced he'd doped. Prior to reading it I was on Tyler's side, he was easily my favorite rider.

To certain degree I think we'd like to believe that the tests are flawed and these guys who get caught are somehow being victimized by a system that is run by incompetent doctors. But the science is pretty good when it comes to the test that busted Tyler. It's been used in hospitals for years prior to it's use by UCI, it isn't new and untested as Tyler was trying to portray it.


How do you know the science behind the testing is pretty good? Have you been behind the scene at the labs or proof that the testing is not flawed.

I have known that mistakes happen, my buddy was dismissed for his results but when they did a internal inquiry about it, they found out it wasn't him. Yep mix up at the lab and mislabeling. It was too late for him to try and come back.
This isn't cycling I am talking about.

Unless we are there and present we can make guesses at what we think transpired at the time. Even they just didn't know what had happened at the lab or where the mix up occured and try to do damage control.

If he did it then his ruling was justified, if not then a witch hunt was for nothing.


S/F,
CEYA!

I think that if we all examined our lives closely, we all have skeletons in our proverbial closets, and to be so unforgiving as to resort to name-calling is a tad on the low side of things. I guess that I am of the belief that most people are basically good and that we all screw up (more frequently than we like to admit). Short of sex crimes and murder, everyone truly deserves extra chances. Truly, I think the only person that knows the whole truth is Tyler himself, and if he can live with himself, so be it. If he is innocent, then why admit to something that he did?, if he is guilty, he will have to face his own demons.

Let's be more understanding and forgiving.
+1

I think that if we all examined our lives closely, we all have skeletons in our proverbial closets, and to be so unforgiving as to resort to name-calling is a tad on the low side of things. I guess that I am of the belief that most people are basically good and that we all screw up (more frequently than we like to admit). Short of sex crimes and murder, everyone truly deserves extra chances. Truly, I think the only person that knows the whole truth is Tyler himself, and if he can live with himself, so be it. If he is innocent, then why admit to something that he did?, if he is guilty, he will have to face his own demons.

Let's be more understanding and forgiving.

I'd argue that dickhead is a perfectly apt description. This man was given a second chance. The UCI gave him every opportunity to address the issues with his blood before he was found positive at the Olympics and Vuelta. He didn't. Instead he risked the jobs of approx 30 people through his irresponsible actions. Whether or not he took drugs is beside the point, though it appears to be the most likely scenario. He has also shown zero contrition. I for one won't be sad to see him not get a ride in a Protour team.

This is turning into the House Comittee on Un-American Activities...

So, cheating, lying and stealing, and covering up for the people who helped you cheat, lie, and steal is "American"? And, getting the criminals out of cycling would be "Un-American? Yeah, right...

I don't what is more disgusting. That a criminal such as Tyler Hamilton represented the USA in the Olympics. Or, that a few members of this Forum continue to endorse his criminal conduct and would "welcome him back", especially if he keeps his mouth shut about who helped him commit his crimes.

How do you know the science behind the testing is pretty good? Have you been behind the scene at the labs or proof that the testing is not flawed.

I have known that mistakes happen, my buddy was dismissed for his results but when they did a internal inquiry about it, they found out it wasn't him. Yep mix up at the lab and mislabeling. It was too late for him to try and come back.
This isn't cycling I am talking about.

Unless we are there and present we can make guesses at what we think transpired at the time. Even they just didn't know what had happened at the lab or where the mix up occurred and try to do damage control.

If he did it then his ruling was justified, if not then a witch hunt was for nothing.


S/F,
CEYA!

The science behind the test is not flawed. Flow cytometry, the test used to find Hamilton's blood doping, has been used in hospitals for over 25 years. If you are trying to insinuate that the testers made a mistake, that does not make the science flawed. For the record Tyler's blood came back positive on two occasions prior to the Olympics. Both times the UCI gave Tyler warnings that his blood test were not up to standards yet he still risked it to win. In all these tests the odds of the labs screwing up every one of them would be pretty high.

As this being some sort of witch hunt, how do you figure? Tyler was the 'All American' kid. Clean cut, loved his wife and his dog. Never spoke out never bragged, everyone in the peloton loved him. Why would the UCI, WADA, and the USADA go after him. Do you have proof that this was some sort of vendetta against Tyler?

He had several warnings about increased hematocrit, without any Reticulocytes (new blood cells). WADA reffers to the ratio between the 2 as a manipulation index, or "off score"

Basically if you are gaining cells, but not making new ones, your recieving auto-transfusions. It's the only way to detect them. At Liege Bastogne Liege, his Off score was 123%, the average is 90% 5 Days later at the Tour of Romandie (Big Swiss Race for his Big Swiss Sponsor) it was 132.9 and he had a hematocrit of 49.7% .1 and .3 away from being disqualified to start. He won the race.

To say that Phonak riders don't transfuse blood is absurd, becuase 2 of them are currently benched becuase they've been filmed entereing the building of Dr. Fuentes and the Madrid Blood Factory that was just busted. 3 if you Count Sevilla who raced for them in 2004

Tyler was putting up funny numbers for a while, then all of a sudden showed cells from more than 2 person, Santiago Perez (Team mate)failed the same test, at the same time. So it appears someone handling the blood made a mistake. Perez didn't have the PR machine, nor the Goldnen Retriever, so most of you may not have known about him. He was not considered a GC Contender for the Vuelta, came almost out of nowhere to win 3 stages, including final time trial, and took 2nd place on podium.

There are a lot of Pro cyclists, American ones too, who live in Spain. Yet none really seem to race there. Maybe its just a nice place to live. I've yet to visit.

Phonak dopers..

Hamilton (banned) blood issues
Perez (banned) blood issues
Camenzind (admitted) EPO
Guidi (cleared after B sample negative) EPO
Botero (video tape) Blood clinic
Sevilla (video tape) rode for Phonak with Tyler
Guiterrez (video tape) Blood Clinic
Zulle (admitted former doper) rode for Phonak 2003 EPO
Gonzales (sacked by team) blood values


in fact if you look at the 2004 TdF Roster for Phonak..... 5 out of the 9 riders have been banned since.

Question.... (just a wild speculation) If Tyler's condition with the vanishing twin is true, causing his blood levels to be unacceptable, wouldn't this be a problem again if he is tested? Wouldn't he test positive and just get suspended again?

(assuming, of course, Tyler's condition is due to this chimera, that is.... )

Good point CyLowe97, and other than when Tyler had some his best performances, his blood has never shown cells from 2 people, out of dozens of tests.

So, cheating, lying and stealing, and covering up for the people who helped you cheat, lie, and steal is "American"? And, getting the criminals out of cycling would be "Un-American? Yeah, right...

I don't what is more disgusting. That a criminal such as Tyler Hamilton represented the USA in the Olympics. Or, that a few members of this Forum continue to endorse his criminal conduct and would "welcome him back", especially if he keeps his mouth shut about who helped him commit his crimes.I know I'm picking nits here, but what provisions of the Greek and Spanish criminal codes do you say Hamilton violated?

[QUOTE=El Diablo Rojo]

EDR - If you are trying to insinuate that the testers made a mistake, that does not make the science flawed.

MY RESPONSE: I didn't say that, I said mistakes happen and gave a example from my personal experience.

How do you know the science is not flawed. That was my question to you. Just because it has been used for so long. Everybody may not do it the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDR - In all these tests the odds of the labs screwing up every one of them would be pretty high.

MY RESPONSE: Just because someone makes a mistake desn't mean it is at a high rate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDR - As this being some sort of witch hunt, how do you figure?

Give the benefit of the doubt, I don't have a medical degree but been in the criminal justice field. People say thing but have not given up enough proof to back their claim.

If you have a medical degree then tell me more information about the testing if not flawed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



EDR - Tyler was the 'All American' kid. Clean cut, loved his wife and his dog. Never spoke out never bragged, everyone in the peloton loved him. Why would the UCI, WADA, and the USADA go after him.


Do you have proof that this was some sort of vendetta against Tyler?

I didn't say that this was a vendetta against him. If you see my post before at the end ,I stated if the facts are true then ruling should stand. If not then everybody should move one. All I see is people saying guilty and so forth . then show me how. I can't say if he is guilty or innocent because I have not see the paper work or results. and as someone stated only Tyler knows.

S/F,
CEYA!
Strenght and Honor!!

[QUOTE=El Diablo Rojo]

EDR - If you are trying to insinuate that the testers made a mistake, that does not make the science flawed.

MY RESPONSE: I didn't say that, I said mistakes happen and gave a example from my personal experience.

How do you know the science is not flawed. That was my question to you. Just because it has been used for so long. Everybody may not do it the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDR - In all these tests the odds of the labs screwing up every one of them would be pretty high.

MY RESPONSE: Just because someone makes a mistake desn't mean it is at a high rate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDR - As this being some sort of witch hunt, how do you figure?

Give the benefit of the doubt, I don't have a medical degree but been in the criminal justice field. People say thing but have not given up enough proof to back their claim.

If you have a medical degree then tell me more information about the testing if not flawed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



EDR - Tyler was the 'All American' kid. Clean cut, loved his wife and his dog. Never spoke out never bragged, everyone in the peloton loved him. Why would the UCI, WADA, and the USADA go after him.


Do you have proof that this was some sort of vendetta against Tyler?

I didn't say that this was a vendetta against him. If you see my post before at the end ,I stated if the facts are true then ruling should stand. If not then everybody should move one. All I see is people saying guilty and so forth . then show me how. I can't say if he is guilty or innocent because I have not see the paper work or results. and as someone stated only Tyler knows.

S/F,
CEYA!
Strenght and Honor!!

First this test like said has been used in hospitals to save lives (far more important than bike race) for over a quarter of century. The test is valid. Tyler was tested by more than one lab and had tested positive by all the labs involved, this is not a one off situation.

Your comment about only Tyler knows for sure is also not correct, the evidence against him is pretty overwhelming when you look at it in whole. If you only read his website or take the evidence out of context it does weaken the case against him. Like I said earlier Velonews did a very nice time line about his case and when you see it all laid out in context it's pretty obvious he's guilty. Read Smoothies post as well, more info to prove the point.

I still think he should have to give up his gold medal. If he was suspended for doping, why haven't they taken his medal away?

The science behind the test is not flawed. Flow cytometry, the test used to find Hamilton's blood doping, has been used in hospitals for over 25 years.

Flow cytometry for the sake of clinical work is entirely different from using flow cytometry to figure out whether someone doped or used EPO. Sure it's been used, but for a completely different purpose.

The "normal" range of many lab tests is well known to be a 95% confidence interval. That means that if I check a lab on 100 people (pick one), 5 of them will DEFINITELY have an "abnormal" result. It's the way these things are made. For other tests, the numbers may be even worse. So do we know beyond a doubt that 100% of people will respond to altitude training one way and to doping another?

I don't think the science is as rock-solid as you think... Unless you know the sensitivity/specificity of flow cytometry in detecting doping in humans your guess is as good as mine, and while I'm in no way an authority on the subject I totally believe that some of the "positives" have been false, and will continue to be. Call them casualties of the war on doping. Was TH one of them? Only he knows, ultimately...

DrPete

Flow cytometry for the sake of clinical work is entirely different from using flow cytometry to figure out whether someone doped or used EPO. Sure it's been used, but for a completely different purpose.

The "normal" range of many lab tests is well known to be a 95% confidence interval. That means that if I check a lab on 100 people (pick one), 5 of them will DEFINITELY have an "abnormal" result. It's the way these things are made. For other tests, the numbers may be even worse. So do we know beyond a doubt that 100% of people will respond to altitude training one way and to doping another?

I don't think the science is as rock-solid as you think... Unless you know the sensitivity/specificity of flow cytometry in detecting doping in humans your guess is as good as mine, and while I'm in no way an authority on the subject I totally believe that some of the "positives" have been false, and will continue to be. Call them casualties of the war on doping. Was TH one of them? Only he knows, ultimately...

DrPete

According to Dr Bruce Davis (committee chairman of the Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute, Author of the North American and International clinical flow cytometry consensus papers, director of hematology US LABS, and co-Founder of the International Laboratory of Hematology) the test is quite valid for testing athletes. According to Dr Davis the test was refined approximately 5 years ago for the IOC and WADA. My point is this guy is one of the foremost experts in the field of Hematology and flow cytometry and he thinks it's valid.