Commuting - The honest truth about high powered LED lights

I'm interested in spending a decent sum on a good rechargealbe LED light to get to & from work. While there are heaps of 12 volt Halogen lights - all claiming long battery life and massive beam spread- the most recent reviews I have read appear to lean toward the newest LED technology particularly for battery life and robustness. I understand that some of the more progressive lights are bringing out 3, and 5 watt LED lights in the coming 12 months?

My gripe is that they all seem to be over USD350 - I can't believe they cost too much to make?

Any crystal balling on the future of lights suitalbe for a hard core commuter / road trainer?

thanks
Big Joe:D

IMO, LED lights are a good price/performance ratio at the very bottom of the spectrum...in the $50 or less range. Above that, there are lights that offer similar performance for similar cash....but offer better off-axis lighting, something LEDs cannot do well by nature.

At $350....look at HID lights....nothing else. I bought my Blowtorch 2.0 for $300, and that thing is retardedly bright, as in brighter than the headlights of some cars....and I get 4hr burn times on the water bottle battery. I heard that there are a few sales going on under $300 for a few Niterider models right now online....so go look around.

Oh, and Light & Motion has a "better" HID than niterider...as in more light spread. However, as bright as HID lights are, I am afraid of blinding motorists with it, so I actually do think the Niterider is "better" in that sense, being that it has a softer off-axis light spread, while having a nearly daylight intense beam straight ahead.

Also try searching the Forums for earlier threads discussing pros and cons of various bulb types (LED vs. HID vs. halogen).

--J

LED systems do not cost that much to make. If you look at the bare components used in those things, you will see that there are at most $50 worth of parts. It probably costs them another $30 to manufacture in China, then they turn around and sell their super-fly light system for a nice tidy 200% profit.

At least, that's the opinion of a pessimistic DIY-er... ;)

3w luxeon leds cost ~$10 ea RETAIL.

4amp-hr li ion batteries go for ~$40.

these expensive LED lamps are for the more-money-than-brains crowd.

while they do put out some nice white light, theyre not THAT bright. a cheap mr11 or mr16 light is probably going to work better for a commuter.

and as earlier poster stated, if you've got 300 bucks for lights you should look at hid.

I've had good luck with plain old ordinary rechargeable AA batteries in my LED headlight.

3w luxeon leds cost ~$10 ea RETAIL.

4amp-hr li ion batteries go for ~$40.

these expensive LED lamps are for the more-money-than-brains crowd.

while they do put out some nice white light, theyre not THAT bright. a cheap mr11 or mr16 light is probably going to work better for a commuter.

and as earlier poster stated, if you've got 300 bucks for lights you should look at hid.

All this talk about lights made me wish I waited to buy, until I saw this tidbit. I paid $122.50 for my Cateye Doubleshot off of ebay, brand new in box! This seems like a STEAL :eek: now. As for the light, I am VERY happy with it, I use it ONLY on road/paved trail, but have found that I can easily go at average daylight pace without a worry. It is also quite light and robust. I give it :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Based upon reviews found on BF, I felt this light would be the best; it comes with helmet mount as well (I prefer the handlebar meself).

Good luck with the purchase!

Kerry

The truth about LED's ?

HID's are more efficent, more light, better run time. In a few years an HID bulb could wear out from the number of hours or the number of starts, but they take lots of abuse, like 24 hour off road racing. The light is not ruined when the bulb wears out, you just replace the bulb.

See the first post in the thread "light selection guide" for more infomation and links to nightime beam photos of all kinds of lights. It has an excellent comparison of the pro's and con's of different bulb types.
There is even a chart that lets you compare price, run time, power, etc. of different lights.

batteryspace.com has HIDs complete with LiIon batteries for $220. Nothing will make you as happy as an HID. I have one of theirs and if it died I'd order another before I took my shower after the ride.

Way down the road I expect to see some MR16 and MR11 LED bulbs with 20 to 32 separate low-power emitters in them built into a bike headlight. To have much higher efficiency then 3 and 5 watt single LEDs. And a better life span then the HID bulbs. I am a DIY type with a 50 watt system that blows enough light out to the sides to make heavy night traffic fun.

Way down the road I expect to see some MR16 and MR11 LED bulbs with 20 to 32 separate low-power emitters in them built into a bike headlight. To have much higher efficiency then 3 and 5 watt single LEDs. And a better life span then the HID bulbs. I am a DIY type with a 50 watt system that blows enough light out to the sides to make heavy night traffic fun.


Halogen/LED combos have been on the market for a few years.
Check the Lupine lights product web pages.

http://www.lupine.de/en/products/products.html

The Otto 8 is a combo light, just what you are talking about.
They also have a 4x3 watt LED light too, brighter than any other LED bike lights.

I've seen others too, another really nice one was from Supernova . I think they have an LED and
HID combo too. http://www.supernova-lights.com/en/index.html

The Lupine HID light is equal to 65 watts halogen. It's brighter than my MR16 50 watt light, and my 55watt car headlights. And has a nicer beam shape too. You can pick from two beam widths. Supernova has a light that is much more powerful than the Lupine HID.

Lupine………. Wilma 8 4x3W LED ………………. Otto 8 25W SR 12° 3W LED

^^^ The above lights are all well out of the price range of the average biker. They are from 500 to over 1000 dollars apeice.

I'm quite happy with the Cateye Triple Shot. It has a nice bright light that is of a tempture that doesn't get washed out easily by street lights. I've found that with the white light of LED's I can see much better than with the yellowish light of halogen. I suspect this is because of the high pressure sodium street lights here which give a yellowish light, thus blending with the halogen. The white LED light gives a very nice contrast.

Battery life with the Triple Shot is decent too.

It can be found for 229 euro at the following link.
http://www.bike-components.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12053&osCsid=492d56d77cc793a22fda481ee0948c8e

Any crystal balling on the future of lights suitalbe for a hard core commuter / road trainer?

I think the future is dynamo-powered LED. Dynamo hub with Solidlights 1203D (http://www.solidlights.co.uk/products/1203d.php). There is a review here (http://www.meiring.org.uk/pdm/Audax/SolidLights_Review.shtml) and some comments and comparaison with the Lumotec at the cyclingplus forum (http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/) (search for 1203D). Very expensive but it's a "install and forget" thing. No bulb to change, no battery to charge, ever. Peter White (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com) sells Inoled brand.

The Cateye Doubleshot has a brighter spot (intended as the helmet mount light of the combo) and the Triple puts out more light, but as a wide flood so does not seem as bright.

So if you ride in pitch black like forest trails, then I prefer lights like the double on my helmet to let me scan the terrain, but in more developed areas, the flood may suit you better. The double is also preferred by a couple of road riders I know because from the handlebar it focuses a long beam of light on the road and allows them to ride at speed when out on country roads (we have reduced winter daylight here at the moment)

Actually, both together would make an excellent combo, but my girlfriend would have to agree to a rasie in my 'allowance'.

The ones that 2manybikes has, maybe, cause he's a rich mofo. But for the rest of us poor folk, roughly 1/3rd of the people so far in this thread have a high powered HID light. Do the exchange rates on $229 euro and you'll have a HID light too.
A decent one.. that's not stuck on by velcro and duct tape.. yea yea you batteryspace users are happy, I get it, I have plenty of friends happy driving a hyundai too, it's just as comfortable as a civic or camry.


^^^ The above lights are all well out of the price range of the average biker. They are from 500 to over 1000 dollars apeice.

I'm quite happy with the Cateye Triple Shot. It has a nice bright light that is of a tempture that doesn't get washed out easily by street lights. I've found that with the white light of LED's I can see much better than with the yellowish light of halogen. I suspect this is because of the high pressure sodium street lights here which give a yellowish light, thus blending with the halogen. The white LED light gives a very nice contrast.

Battery life with the Triple Shot is decent too.

It can be found for 229 euro at the following link.
http://www.bike-components.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12053&osCsid=492d56d77cc793a22fda481ee0948c8e

You're a grown man, you can buy your own toys. Does she really want to put a price on your health and safety?


Actually, both together would make an excellent combo, but my girlfriend would have to agree to a rasie in my 'allowance'.

My gripe is that they all seem to be over USD350 - I can't believe they cost too much to make?


No way am I spending more on a light than I did on my bike.:eek:

Thanks to everyone who has provided their thoughts on the LED issues and costs involved.

I'm still interested to know if anyone believes that the new 7watt and 12 watt LEDS expected before the end of the year - will be the way of the future?

I heard that KNOG from Australia is bringing out a new high powered light - launched at the taipei fair - they are the guys that make the silicon frog light-

any news would be great!

thanks

Big Joe

You're a grown man, you can buy your own toys. Does she really want to put a price on your health and safety?

:D

I do already have an extreme amount of wattage, but of the SLA/halogen bulb type. I am experimenting with home made LED clusters too.
I also have a small SLA/mr11 commuter system as well as all the usual blinkies.

The argument that this whole lot of lights could be superceded by a nifty LED system will come to a swift halt, as I have played the price of saftey card a few too many times. I will likely sneak in the duo over the next few months.

Frankly, I don't blame her for keepng the clutches on my purse strings (we are mutually saving for a number of things). I get a fair amount of bike pocket money, that I can still blow on new rubber and other small components. As well as paying in to our mutual savings, I pay a little extra that we keep track of so I can make big bike purchases now and then. If I don't do this, I would just give it to my LBS in small installments.

I am radical_edward, and I am an addict....:o

A decent one.. that's not stuck on by velcro and duct tape.. yea yea you batteryspace users are happy, I get it, I have plenty of friends happy driving a hyundai too, it's just as comfortable as a civic or camry.

batteryspace.com does still have the individual components for DIY types like me, but they also now have complete kits ready to go, with high speed smart chargers, LiIon packs in bags, proper handlebar or helmet mount, etc.
OK, the switch on the handlebar mount is a little less than totally polished. Still, I'll take it given that it's more than $100 cheaper than the next closest thing, and for the most part (other than I think a custom reflector on one maker's stuff) all HIDs are the same, they all use lamps and electronics from the same manufacturer.

batteryspace.com does still have the individual components for DIY types like me, but they also now have complete kits ready to go, with high speed smart chargers, LiIon packs in bags, proper handlebar or helmet mount, etc.
OK, the switch on the handlebar mount is a little less than totally polished. Still, I'll take it given that it's more than $100 cheaper than the next closest thing, and for the most part (other than I think a custom reflector on one maker's stuff) all HIDs are the same, they all use lamps and electronics from the same manufacturer.

Is all that really worth an hour's worth of salary?
I think if I ever go home made, it'll end up costing several times MORE than what's out there since I'll want to have it polished and home made as well as having all the features I want in it.

^^^ The above lights are all well out of the price range of the average biker. They are from 500 to over 1000 dollars apeice.

I'm quite happy with the Cateye Triple Shot. It has a nice bright light that is of a tempture that doesn't get washed out easily by street lights. I've found that with the white light of LED's I can see much better than with the yellowish light of halogen. I suspect this is because of the high pressure sodium street lights here which give a yellowish light, thus blending with the halogen. The white LED light gives a very nice contrast.

Battery life with the Triple Shot is decent too.

It can be found for 229 euro at the following link.
http://www.bike-components.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12053&osCsid=492d56d77cc793a22fda481ee0948c8e


All true. One can spend $1400 if you want to. I also have no problem with the Triple shot light.

However, for the price of a triple shot you can get an HID light that is much brighter and has an hour longer run time. You just get more for your money. That's where the market place is today, HID is a better value. Part of the reason (only part, not all) is HID bulbs are more efficient than LED bulbs, I don't know how that can change.

When I bought my Lupine there were no other bright lights that would go for 7-8 hours, that was a couple of years ago. Now there is a 12 hour Nightrider HID on the market. The most efficient bulb is still the most efficient bulb.

Is all that really worth an hour's worth of salary?
I think if I ever go home made, it'll end up costing several times MORE than what's out there since I'll want to have it polished and home made as well as having all the features I want in it.


Don't forget I ordered mine first. :)



I am radical_edward, and I am am addict....

Meetings at my house Wed. night at 7:00 pm. Bring snacks. :)

Don't forget I ordered mine first. :)




Meetings at my house Wed. night at 7:00 pm. Bring snacks. :)Is it ok if I get there a bit late? It takes a while to chew through the restraints.

Is all that really worth an hour's worth of salary?
I think if I ever go home made, it'll end up costing several times MORE than what's out there since I'll want to have it polished and home made as well as having all the features I want in it.

Hmm, I don't make $100 an hour. Also, depends on your frame of mind. I'll always prefer to own something that I made myself, regardless of how it looks, as long as it performs OK, and even if in the end it costs the same. I prefer to create more than consume.

Is all that really worth an hour's worth of salary?
I think if I ever go home made, it'll end up costing several times MORE than what's out there since I'll want to have it polished and home made as well as having all the features I want in it.

Who's clearing $100 / hour? :eek:

90% of my hourly rate goes toward overhead and expenses...and I'm not making anywhere near that.

But the DIY ones do seem kind of crappy in the mounts and switches - where it matters in everyday usage. I'd go with the L&M ones that are so highly recommended.

Is it ok if I get there a bit late? It takes a while to chew through the restraints.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


It's OK we all understand... just get there before sunset, the meetings seem to end about the time it gets darK... :)

Pfft don't look at me, I'm dirt poor, barely in the black

Pfft don't look at me, I'm dirt poor, barely in the black

that's...uh....not what I heard about you

Are there instructions for DIY HID lights somewhere? Looking at batteryspace.com, it looks like I could put something together for less than $200 -- but maybe I'm leaving out important parts. Velcro, radiator clamps, and duct tape are fine -- its going to be after dark.

Are there instructions for DIY HID lights somewhere? Looking at batteryspace.com, it looks like I could put something together for less than $200 -- but maybe I'm leaving out important parts. Velcro, radiator clamps, and duct tape are fine -- its going to be after dark.

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1395
Out the door and on the road, @ 185 not too shabby

All true. One can spend $1400 if you want to. I also have no problem with the Triple shot light.
However, for the price of a triple shot you can get an HID light that is much brighter and has an hour longer run time. You just get more for your money. That's where the market place is today, HID is a better value. Part of the reason (only part, not all) is HID bulbs are more efficient than LED bulbs, I don't know how that can change.
My understanding is that HID lights are slightly more efficient than the best white LEDs in the 1W and under size. LEDs in the 3W, 5W and larger become progressively less efficient but there is reason to believe that efficiencies can be improved by the LED manufacturers.
I like LEDs because they should be more reliable especially with lots of on/off cycles. However if you currently want to light up the road the best light for the weight is an HID with Lithium Ion battery. LEDs are not quite as bright but provide better runtimes than halogen which are the cheapest of the lights.
Craig

Yesterday I bought a "budget" LED headlamp, the Cateye EL500. I was shocked by how bright it is. I went on the street tonight and it illumantes from curb to curb and forward about half a block. And that was in my neighborhood where there was some other lighting. I am sure in a rural area it will much more pronounced. I would not have imagined one small lamp could produce this much light. I am more than pleased at this point.

2manybikes said, "The Otto 8 is a combo light, just what you are talking about.
They also have a 4x3 watt LED light too, brighter than any other LED bike lights."

wow...that is an expensive led light!
http://www.gretnabikes.com/product.asp?product_ind=172&cat_ind=7

does anyone know of any powerful small handheld led flashlights that you could secure to your handlebars for way less money than the lupine?

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1395
Out the door and on the road, @ 185 not too shabby

Anyone used this light? Comments on durability/reliability? And, which is better the 6 degree spot, or 12 degree flood?

Anyone used this light? Comments on durability/reliability? And, which is better the 6 degree spot, or 12 degree flood?
There have been several long threads on different forums about varying problems with these lights. A google search should turn them up.

Anyone used this light? Comments on durability/reliability? And, which is better the 6 degree spot, or 12 degree flood?
I got mine last December, and ran it twice a day, 5 days/week until late April. Mine has the Li-ion battery, so it was a little more expensive. The coldest temperature it was used in was ~-25C + windchill. I had it fail on me once, just before I left for work, but I turned it off, checked the connections and then it was fine. I made my own helmet mount as well:
http://static.flickr.com/43/84649443_8f394e1c2e.jpg
The helmet mount is made from an old Oakley goggle lens and weighs less than an ounce including the straps and velcro. It is quite stable, especially since the Trailtech light casing is made from metal and is fairly heavy [read: overbuilt for cycling, great for MX]. I don't really notice it anymore, but it takes a couple of days to get used to it. I have the 12-degree flood, and it is very effective. On my commute, it's important to see and be seen, and drivers are not expecting to see a biker riding through the snow when it's -20 out. I don't ever shine it directly at a vehicle unless they stray into my lane or look like they won't be giving me the right of way. Most vehicles give me a wide berth, which is how I like it.

I loaned it to a friend of mine for an adventure race, and it lasted twice as long as any of the other lights, with about 3x the brightness.

The main downfalls of this light are the weight of the light unit itself and the lack of a good helmet mount. The weight is something I can get used to, and the helmet mount is easy to create out of some plastic and a couple of straps. The beam pattern is great, the brightness is unbelievable.

Anyone used this light? Comments on durability/reliability? And, which is better the 6 degree spot, or 12 degree flood?

I used one all last winter, and am still using it.

I had one problem; I assembled the thing myself from parts, and at the time BatterySpace said that their 14.4v bottle battery was "perfect" for this light. It's not. The HID specs a max voltage of 14.8v. A 14.4v NiMH pack puts out over 16 volts for a long time when freshly charged, and takes > 1 hour to drop below 14.8v. I wound up frying the ballast in my first HID. Fortunately TrailTech fixed it for free.

Now I'm running at 12.4v (regulated, didn't want to hack up my 14.4v pack). Many hours since then, no problems.

If I were doing it again, I'd probably go with a 12 or 13.2v pack, or maybe LiIon. I intentionally stayed away from LiIon last time because I often ride when it's < 10*F and LiIon doesn't do well at low temps. But I think for those few times I could put the pack in my jacket.

I actually have the Spot. I ordered the flood but they misshipped. They offered to replace but I decided I didn't care that much. I think I'd get the flood. There's plenty of light to spread around, the spot isn't needed.

I just wanted to comment on the durability of headlights based on my experience.
I have owned several EL200s, an EL500, a NikeHawk Raptor, a NikeHawk Emitter, and a Nashbar brilliant(?).
All of these lights have started having failures after less than a year of use. The EL200s last 6-9months before they start turning off on large bumps. Shortly after this they fail to turn on. The Nashbar light had similar problems after a shorter amount of time (thou it was winter when I used this light).
After about 10 months the Emitter would no longer turn on follow a short period where it took repeated attempts to turm the light on.
The battery connection on the Raptor became loose after only a few months of use. I was able to resolve this issure with some ingenuity. The light was stolen with my bike before I got to use it much longer.
I've had the EL500 for about 6 months and the switch has started to give problems. It took me multiple attempts to turn the light both on and off the last time I used it.
Does anybody have a recommendation for a light as bright as the EL500 that will last for years rather than months? I hate buying new lights every few months.
Craig

I intentionally stayed away from LiIon last time because I often ride when it's < 10*F and LiIon doesn't do well at low temps.

Are you sure about this? In my experience NiMH does a poor job at cold, but I always thought Li-Ion is better in this regard.

--J

The truth about LED's ?

HID's are more efficent, more light, better run time. In a few years an HID bulb could wear out from the number of hours or the number of starts, but they take lots of abuse, like 24 hour off road racing. The light is not ruined when the bulb wears out, you just replace the bulb.

See the first post in the thread "light selection guide" for more infomation and links to nightime beam photos of all kinds of lights. It has an excellent comparison of the pro's and con's of different bulb types.
There is even a chart that lets you compare price, run time, power, etc. of different lights.

Yah but how /MUCH/ is the replacement HID bulb tho. I was thinking of the HID myself and I do ride about 2-3 hours a night with probably about 6-8 on/off switches (I grocery shop, snack stops, and when I'm in/out of dark zones and back into the city lights) a night as I shift between my low power blinkie/light and my high power one (if/when I get a HID high power). Based on my time/useage what ywould you say my bulb burn out time would be?


Zero_Enigma

2manybikes said, "The Otto 8 is a combo light, just what you are talking about.
They also have a 4x3 watt LED light too, brighter than any other LED bike lights."

wow...that is an expensive led light!
http://www.gretnabikes.com/product.asp?product_ind=172&cat_ind=7

does anyone know of any powerful small handheld led flashlights that you could secure to your handlebars for way less money than the lupine?

Did you check out this page for some pocket torches? http://www.qualitychinagoods.com/

A lot of the guys at Candlepowerforums have a dealers page and I've read a few security personel picked up some of the 5-10W lights off that site above for the price and the preformance is decent as a backup light. The rest of the list from Candlepowerforums can be found here. http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=56067 I like how they have the rechargeable CR123 batteries now. If you use the light a lot it would be probably be a good idea and investment to get an extra set of rechargable CR123's charged up when you're out on the battle road.


Zero_Enigma

Are you sure about this? In my experience NiMH does a poor job at cold, but I always thought Li-Ion is better in this regard.

--J

I'm coming from a AA use here for cameras and other gadgets. I IMHO have experienced that NIMH's fresh off the charger into a digicam in ~ -30C - 35C w/ windchill (approx. -18C - 24C without windchill) in Canada's famous winters (I'm in T.O) don't last long. That's like around 0F for our friends south of the 49th parallel. I mean I managed to get about ~10-15 shots in about 30mins off my Canon S2-IS digicam before the batteries seized on me. When I took the batteries out they were pretty cold already. Those same batteries I used (I used 1100 mAh generics and 1850 mAh Energizers) back in Dec./05 in the summer yields me around 100~200 shots (flash, zoom, manula/auto tweaking settings, LCD on). When I changed to lithium batteries back in Dec./05, being pissed off all my batteries zapped out after 10-20 shots each dispite me keeping them around the bodies "hot" zones to keep them warm before use.

Now I've always heard Lithiums are king in the cold temps but never really put that tot he test myself being a NICAD/NIMH person for the ecomonical long run but I sprung the $6.00 for 4xAA lithiums then and managed around no less then 100 photos with flash and zoom. I think I got no more then 150 photos before the batteries drained out on me. Now that's a hell of a difference there getting ~10-20 shots with NIMH over Lithum. My second time with the lituims was when my GPS kept draining out on me around ~ -20C - -30C w/windchill (approx. -15C - -22C then without windchill) and I was using my NIMH batteries fresh off the chargers. I was using WAAS and full load (no power saving with full backlight on) and I got about just less then 2 hours of useage using the 1100mAh and 1850 mAh.

Both batteries felt bone cold when I took them out. My GPS model then was the Garmin Etrex Legend C which has a approx 32hr run time or about 9-10 hours with low backlight. When I dropped lithum batteires in I got around 5 hours on full load when the winds were howling outside. IMHO lithums seem to be king when you're out in the cold for sure. I had two situations I tried it in and it carried me through.


Zero_Enigma

IIMHO lithums seem to be king when you're out in the cold for sure. I had two situations I tried it in and it carried me through.
Zero_Enigma

Lithium is different than Lithium Ion. I would not assume that experience in one carries to the other.

Are you sure about this? In my experience NiMH does a poor job at cold, but I always thought Li-Ion is better in this regard.

--J

Googling around, you can find anything from "LiIon rules the cold" to "LiIon is useless in the cold". So you have to choose who to believe. I generally find batteryuniversity.com to be reliable.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-15.htm
"-20°C (-4°F) is threshold at which the nickel-metal-hydride, sealed lead-acid and lithium-ion battery cease to function, the nickel-cadmium can go down to -40°C (-40°F)"

but later on
"Lithium-ion may be used down to -30°C (-22°F) with acceptable results. Larger packs will be necessary to compensate for the reduced capacity at these temperatures. "

So apparently that's a usage of the phrase "cease to function" that I was unaware of.

There are also apparently different breeds of LiIon, some manganese based and some cobalt based, and possibly others, and they behave differently.

If my NiMH pack ever dies, I'll probably try a LiIon pack to see how it does.