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Please help me be a educated buyer of this paramount tandem:
http://www.bikecult.com/works/collections/paramtandem.html
I'm most likely going to use it as a wall hanger in my shop. Whats a fair price and what should I look for. Are there specific places the frame could be stressed? Thanks!
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It's a '77, 4130 chrome-moly internally lugged hand brazed frame. Originally sold for $995. It weighs 43 pounds. The Brooks saddles were an option. It's a very nice bike, and there really aren't any stress damage-prone areas. No clue as to current value.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/1977ParamountTandem.jpg
It's a '77, 4130 chrome-moly internally lugged hand brazed frame.
Perhaps you know the bike, but if I had to go on what I'm seeing on the linked image and notes I'd peg it as a '79 model... 48h Phil Wood hub / rear wheel & World Champion decal placement being the most notable discriminators. (See below, but note that tandem in the catalog photo only has a 36h rear wheel).
On value... that's tough. I've seen an '80 model in good shape offered for sale at $750 and I've read "vintage enthusiasts" suggest superior examples should fetch $1,500. For wall art, conversation piece, or riding I'd probably offer $500 just to get the negotiation going... after all, it's hard to give a fair assessment based only on a couple of photos.
http://www.geocities.com/sldbconsumer8/1979/79ccpg11b.jpg
Specs:
* FRAME SIZE: Men’s style front with Mixte rear. T292 -- 22" front, 19" rear. T294 -- 24" front, 22" rear.
* FRAME: Hand built, hand brazed, 4130 chrome-moly heavy duty tubing, internally lugged.
* FORK: Schwinn-built 4130 chrome-moly steel taper gauged tubular extra-strength tandem design.
* HANDLEBAR: Front -- Cinelli alloy drop style, Rear -- GB alloy allrounder style.
* STEM: Front - Cinelli forged aluminum alloy with recessed bolt, Rear -- Schwinn-Built Heavy duty forged steel bracket.
* SADDLE: Cinelli Unica-Nitor suede leather top on plastic base.
* CRANKSET: Campagnolo Record Strada 3-piece forged alloy 15 speed 36-46-54 tooth triple plateau with tandem cross over drive.
* FREEWHEEL: Special heavy duty tandem design rear cluster with 14-16-19-25-31 tooth cogs.
* CHAIN: Regina Oro 3/32 x ½ inch.
* HUBS: Phil Wood stainless steel heavy duty tandem hubs with sealed bearings adaptable for disc brakes -- 48 holes.
* REAR DERAILLEUR: Maeda Suntour VGT alloy wide range.
* FRONT DERAILLEUR: Campagnolo Record alloy.
* SHIFTING LEVERS: Schwinn-Approved Maeda ratchet design handlebar end shifters.
* BRAKES: Front Caliper -- Mafac Cyclometeur, Rear -- Weinmann Vainqueur, Brake Blocks -- Mathauser, levers -- Weinmann hooded
* RIMS: Super Champion alloy tubular, 27 x 1¼ inch -- 48 holes.
* TIRES: Schwinn Le Tour High Pressure Gumwall 27 x 1¼ inch.
* SPOKES: .080 stainless steel.
* PEDALS: Campagnolo SuperLeggari alloy rattrap with toe clips & straps.
* ACCESSORIES: Options on request.
* COLOR: Black Sable, Frosty Blue, Strawberry Red, Silver Mist, Summer Cloud White.
* WEIGHT: 43 pounds.
Perhaps you know the bike, but if I had to go on what I'm seeing on the linked image and notes I'd peg it as a '79 model... 48h Phil Wood hub / rear wheel & World Champion decal placement being the most notable discriminators. (See below, but note that tandem in the catalog photo only has a 36h rear wheel).
On value... that's tough. I've seen an '80 model in good shape offered for sale at $750 and I've read "vintage enthusiasts" suggest superior examples should fetch $1,500. For wall art, conversation piece, or riding I'd probably offer $500 just to get the negotiation going... after all, it's hard to give a fair assessment based only on a couple of photos.
I don't know the bike, but was going by the "spaghetti" font decal on the OS tube connecting the BB housings. In 1978 Schwinn changed to the "block" font shown in your '79 catalog page. Unless somebody put the earlier decal on a later bike, it's a '77.
I don't know the bike, but was going by the "spaghetti" font decal on the OS tube connecting the BB housings. In 1978 Schwinn changed to the "block" font shown in your '79 catalog page. Unless somebody put the earlier decal on a later bike, it's a '77.
Touche'... It's amazing what a mixed bag of parts and markings were used on these short wheelbase Paramount tandems during their brief production period. This data is wrong; see Scooper's post below. Of course, the third digit in the serial number would yield the definitive answer: a 7 = 77, 8 = 78, 9=79, e.g., EF7123456
Touche'... It's amazing what a mixed bag of parts and markings were used on these short wheelbase Paramount tandems during their brief production period. Of course, the third digit in the serial number would yield the definitive answer: a 7 = 77, 8 = 78, 9=79, e.g., EF7123456
Hmmm. According to the Paramount history pages on the Waterford website, the Paramount tandem numbering system changed in mid-1970:
"Paramount Tandem Serial Numbers
Paramount started building tandems in 1969. Prior to this time, only special team tandems (like Olympic bikes) were made.
Serial Numbering: The first phase started in early 1969 and continued to the middle of 1970. It consisted of the following fields:
• Month Code: This one letter code corresponds to the month with A=January, B=Febuary and so on. Because I is not used, September=J and December=M.
• Year Code: This two digit code is the last two digits of the year - 69 is 1969.
• PT: This code indicated a Paramount Tandem.
• Sequence Number: This three digit number represents the nth frame and/or fork scheduled during the month.
For example E69PT109 was a Paramount Tandem built in May of '69. It was the 9th tandem of the year.
The second phase started in Mid-1970 when Schwinn started using the standard numbering system (and probably a common bottom bracket) with the company's mass production. For example, FF018524 was built in June of 1970, serial number 018524.
All Paramount tandem production had ceased by the end of 1979."
From Schwinn Bulletin 23, 1981: Mass produced Schwinns have been date-coded since 1965 by the first two letters in the serial number. The first letter tells the production month, the second letter tells the production year.
First Letter
A=January
B=February
C=March
D=April
E=May
F=June
G=July
H=August
J=September
K=October
L=November
M=December
Second Letter
A=1965
B=1966
C=1967
D=1968
E=1969
F=1970
G=1971
H=1972
J=1973
K=1974
L=1975
M=1976
N=1977
P=1978
Q=1979
R=1980
S=1981
T=1982
Example: KR123456 = October 1980
So, the serial number for a 1977 Paramount tandem would have an "N" as the second letter, while a '78 would have a "P", and a '79 would have a "Q"...
BTW, the rear wheel of the bike in the '79 catalog only has 36 spokes?
It's a nice looking bike! If you get it, give us a test-ride report. maybe it won't live on the wall all the time!!!!!
In 1975-76 we approached Schwinn to build us a full custom tandem. We wanted crossover drive; at that time they were building same-side drive only and refused to build what we requested.
Instead went with a custom tandem from Matt Assenmacher that cost us less ($1,250) than the Schwinn and weighed in at a then astonishing 34 lbs. Used Reynolds 531 DB single bike tubing (lugged and silver-brazed) and, for then, a bit novel ovalized boob tube. It also featured a bent rear seattube (not as drastic as shown on the Schwinn) and some of the first Phil Wood hubs, BBs and pedals and yes, 36H wheels. Wheelbase was 60 and 1/4 inch with toeclip overlap and had to deflate rear tire to remove the wheel. It was a male/mixte design with thin twin laterals with several cross reinforcements. A great/fast/light/beautiful machine! Put 64,000 *happy* miles on that Assenmacher.
Would be a shame to use such a nice tandem as the Paramount as 'wall art' only. . . however it no doubt will be a conversation piece for tandem enthusiasts!
Pedal n TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Hmmm. According to the Paramount history pages on the Waterford website, the Paramount tandem numbering system changed in mid-1970:[snip] So, the serial number for a 1977 Paramount tandem would have an "N" as the second letter, while a '78 would have a "P", and a '79 would have a "Q"...
Yes, what he said. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain (I had a sinking suspicion that I may have honked up the SN data).
BTW, the rear wheel of the bike in the '79 catalog only has 36 spokes?
Yeah, how about that. Like I said, it seems the Paramounts are a bit fickle. Not sure if they just didn't have a 48h around for the photo shoot or if the specs were changed afterwards. This all kind of overlaps with the "Phil Wood disc debate" that emerged when Schwinn began to offer it on its tandems.
It's also worth noting that as I mentioned, I've seen an '80 Paramount tandem listed for sale, which is a bit odd (and probably an error) given that '79 was the last year they were produced... per the notes on the Waterford site that you quoted.
Boy that tandem would be a neat addition....
Is any of this going to be on jeopardy because I want to know where I can stop memorizing.
Is any of this going to be on jeopardy because I want to know where I can stop memorizing.
You can stop memorizing any time, 'cause it's all inconsequential trivia. :D
In a way, I'm cheating because from age 10 to about 40 I absorbed Schwinn marketing propaganda (and I use that term in a most non-pejorative way) through osmosis from my dad who was a Schwinn factory rep until the day he died, and was very proud of the products the company built.
I owned a Paramount tandem used in 1988 from a guy who purchased in 1978 or 1979 (though the table says it was made in 1976) and rode the crap out of it. It was a small frame (I'm 5'7" and my wife is 5'3") and had a straight stoker seat tube. It had the block style decals and was a royal blue color. It was specced as shown in the previous post with all Campy except for Mafac brakes and Huret rear derailleur. The serial # was EM802871.
The bike cornered on a dime but was whippy when standing, not to mention that the stoker hit her knees on the handlebars and had to turn her head to keep from breaking her nose in my back. Did I mentioned that it cornered on a dime? Very short stoker box.
The only problem that I ever heard of was a guy told me that he snapped his fork off at the crown during a descent. It was a couple of years older than ours.
Ours did come with 36 spoke wheels and were quickly replaced with 48s.
I've got several pictures of it but here's a quick pic of my wife and I racing our Paramount tandem at the Miami Valley Stage Race in 1991. We replaced the bike that Fall with a Santana Noventa. I sold the Paramount for $1200.
:), that is a great story Scooper.
I too was very fond of the Schwinn products back in the 70's. The Paramounts were a very desirable frame. The World Tour IV's were respectable sport-tourers, and of course the Continental was indestructible. My friend had 6 kids in his family and they all grew up riding and sharing their 2 or 3Continentals with all who came over to their house. That was my first taste of 10 speed bikes. One of the coolest bikes I have seen was a head to toe chromed Paramount. Weren't they called a P26 or something at some point after their revival in the 80's?
I love Paramounts as well - my 1969 Single which has now been spread to 130 is still going strong at 30,000 miles. Last year it was the Waterford RS 22, in 1998 it was my Waterford Adventure Cycle. I love tandems to - last year it was a Co-motion Mocha, the year before it was a Bilenky Custom Signature.This week it was the intial launch of a 1989 Koga Miyata Valley Runner. I must have an addiction - lucky for me I have a understanding spouse who is also my stocker. The only bike a regreted giving up was a Chris Chance Road - as pretty as it was it was to big. Off early tomorrow for a two day ride in Leavenworth. I can't wait. Okay I ramble - I am still dreaming about bikes
:), that is a great story Scooper.
I too was very fond of the Schwinn products back in the 70's. The Paramounts were a very desirable frame. The World Tour IV's were respectable sport-tourers, and of course the Continental was indestructible. My friend had 6 kids in his family and they all grew up riding and sharing their 2 or 3Continentals with all who came over to their house. That was my first taste of 10 speed bikes. One of the coolest bikes I have seen was a head to toe chromed Paramount. Weren't they called a P26 or something at some point after their revival in the 80's?
Thanks. I was very lucky to have him as my father.
When I was twelve or thirteen, Ray Burch and Frankie (Frank V.) Schwinn visited us at our home in Florida, and Ray layed down a Continental or Varsity (I forget which - but it was an electroforged lightweight) in our driveway and drove Dad's Buick over it. He then picked it up, hopped on, and rode it down the block and back with a great big smile. The wheels were a little bent, but the frame was still straight. You're right; the Continentals were practically indestructable.
In March of this year, I was lucky enough to pick up a 1972 61 cm all-chrome P15-9 Paramount on eBay. The seller was the original owner who had bought it while he was a teenager working in his father's Schwinn dealership in Southern California. It's absolutely perfect, and looks like it just came off the showroom floor. I'm riding it regularly now and neglecting the other bikes in my small stable.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/1972ChromeParamountP15-9med.jpg
Yup, in the 'old days' Schwinn built some of the best American top-of-the-line cycles! Sad to say, now it's just the name that survives on cheap oriental bikes.
Have also heard of a Schwinn fork failure on P-tandem.
We did test riding for Schwinn in the mid-'80s on their then new DuoSport Tandem. A well-built/stiff/short wheelbase/priced tandem (without a lateral) but underadvertised.
Also the stoker compartment fit Kay perfectly (she's under 5 ft) and suggested to their R&D to lengthen the wheelbase to accomodate average size stokers.
Paramounts have earned a legendary status.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Thanks for all the info people, it seems that to the right person this may be a nice machine.
Thanks for all the info people, it seems that to the right person this may be a nice machine.
OK. I'll bite; how much is the right person expected to anti up to take possession of this machine?
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