Bicycle Mechanics - Bicycle computerized shifting system.

I have developed a computer controlled shifting system for bicycle derailleur systems. This would be in the form of a kit that you would install on any bicycle and the manual shifters would be retained and still available for use if the computer operated shift system failed or the batteries died where replacements would be unavailable. Basic operation consists of a single toggle type switch where the rider would simply press the switch up or down for a gear change. Both front and rear derailleurs are automatically controlled from the single switch. An audible beep warns of an impending front derailleur shift change when required. Any number of toggle switches may be placed in any convenient places the rider would like them. You could even place a switch in a glove with wireless control so as to shift up or down wherever the hand is being used. The computer is programmable for any chain ring number and spacing as well as the cassette or freewheel. Any personal computer may be used to program the shift computer with supplied software. Please answer the following poll so as to inform me if I should spend the money to patent this device.

Sorry man, but this sounds exactly like my manual gears, which currently change at the touch of a lever, and are way more reliable, lightweight, and cost-effective than this system could ever hope to be.

anybody who needs such a thing shouldn't be riding a bicycle. its like indexed shifting that way :D

Yeah, what advantages does this system have over a mechanical index shifting system?

By the way, you have a question in your poll. I'm guessing selecting it means "yes" to that question?

I was going to ask how much it weighs. But no, no thanks anyway.

Electronic shifting would be fantastic, if it worked. Unfortunately, the problem of making a lightweight, reliable system has stumped Mavic since the early 90's, and they weren't even making a front shifter. Campy has a system that looks pretty close to prime-time, but they've been working on it for years and it's still probably a few years from general release.

Shimano has an electronic version of their Nexus internal hub that's actually really cool. It works very well, and it's perfect for the casual rider. Unfortunately, it's also pricey.

So I hate to rain on your parade, but unless you have a way that offers a genuinely novel way of approaching the problem, it's probably not worth the trouble, since you won't be able to patent it. Read up on the Mavic and Campy systems to get a sense of the problems they're wrestling with (weight, reliability, crappy front shifting) and if you can find solutions, go for it.

I would never buy one for a retro fit. I may some day buy a bike that has one. I certainly would not pay 500 bucks for it. That being said if you have the wherewithall to patent, research, develope, and market such a thing, I think there are probably lots of people who would want one.

My wife stopped riding because she did not have the strength to shift. Now she doesn't ride for other reasons, but this would have solved her problem.

I believe that Browning beat you to the punch.

http://www.browningcomponent.com/about.php

I could see electric shifting with a continuously variable transmission on a 4-wheeler recumbant in a carfree utopia for the general public. for sporty riding, I think its a nogo.

Shimano was working on something like this. How many pounds is this going to add to the weight of the bike? Would take all the fun out of things.

The closest answer I could give is the third, but I don't think it's a stupid idea, just impractical. There may at some point in the future be a market for such a system for a certain sect of the public, but that sect isn't likely to be found here. I like the tactile part of riding my bike.

I would give ananswer to this topic very similar to that one of twahl. But I would like to add that every bike I get, I replace the indexed shifting system by the old friction shifters.

I think the only way this would sell would be to combine it with a cyclocomputer speed sensor and offer automatic shifting. Otherwise, just the ability to operate the shifters electronically is not much of a revolution. But then, automatic shifting won't really work with derailleurs, so you'd need to go with internals, and Shimano has already patented that...

i can shift my gears by my self thanks though

I like my index shifters, but the idea of being able to have microswitch controls at multiple locations is attractive. Just make it reliable. I wouldnt spend $500 on it though there are plenty of cyclists who would go for the Bling.

OK, I will describe the system and how it operates. I have obtained paperwork to prevent others from using the idea until I decide to spend money on it. A basic stamp computer drives two stepper motors that pull the cables and subsequently the derailleur mechanisms. This shift system may be placed between the normal shifters and derailleur so you may use your normal cable shifters as a backup system. Friction type shifters could be incorporated in the computer controlled shifter system if desired eliminating very expensive shifters combined with the brake levers or bar-con types and eliminating shifter cables on the handlebars. Using a programmable computer like the basic stamp* allows any length of cable pull for any derailleur system. You could even have the computer compensate for a worn or defective derailleur where one or two cogs never shift correctly or the manufacturer put differing spacer widths between the cogs so only there index shifter would operate correctly with there cassette. Using a computer also allows incorporating both front and rear derailleur into a single control and programming allows the computer to determine which chain ring to use for any particular ratio favoring the chain ring and cog combination used to keep the chain as straight as possible to prevent excessive chain deflection and ensuring swift and smooth shifting. Only three wires are used to connect the switches to the shift computer and only simple switches placed between the wires signal the computer to shift up or down. Any number of switches may be placed along this length of three-wire cable. A wireless shift control system would also be very easy to incorporate eliminating the cable. Two switches placed on the side of either the left or right glove index finger with a small transmitter on the backside of the glove allows up or down shifting by simply pressing the buttons with the thumb or pressing them ageist the brake lever, handlebar, or anything else for that matter. Batteries are not a big problem in weight or size. 5 Volts is all that is required for the stepper motors and a standard 9 Volt battery operates the computer for many weeks of constant use and all may be lightweight Ni-Cd or Ni-MH types. A hub generator could easily keep the batteries charged with very little drag for long distance touring and provide lighting as well. This system would be capable of using any manufactures components and infinitely updateable to any future changes made by any of them.

I made a mistake on the poll so you may call me a human if you like! Ignore the middle choice about the price and if you would pay it. That was an estimate of the wireless "Time Trial" system combined with bar con shifters on the aero bars as backup.

* Link for basic stamp computer information.
http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/products/basicstamps/basic_stamps.asp

Still, my friction shifters do exactly that

If you feel that you have a mechanism that would be reliable, then your should go ahead and patent it. People derided index shifting when it first came out (and still do today) as being unnecessary and unreliable, but it has become the standard.

Considering that Shimano, and probably Campy and SRAM, are already working on electronic shifting, the idea certainly is perceived to have economic value. Once an electronic gear changer is available it opens up interesting possibilities for shifters that aren't constrained to variations on mechanical cable pullers.

If you feel that you have a mechanism that would be reliable, then your should go ahead and patent it. People derided index shifting when it first came out (and still do today) as being unnecessary and unreliable, but it has become the standard.

Considering that Shimano, and probably Campy and SRAM, are already working on electronic shifting, the idea certainly is perceived to have economic value. Once an electronic gear changer is available it opens up interesting possibilities for shifters that aren't constrained to variations on mechanical cable pullers.
OP is actually talking about electro-mechanical combo, i.e. keeping the current cable-driven mechanical system, but controlling cable pull with stepper motors, so you can use easy-to-position switches to control the shifting. I would venture this is the worst of both worlds: You still keep the cables, you add the batteries and controller, and you have a setup/adjustment nightmare. If you go electrical actuation, go all the way - and follow SRAM and Campy, move the actuator into the derailleurs, get rid of the cables. Unfortunately this patent road is a lot more rocky, many big players have been through before.

Wow, that sounds about 3 times as jingus now that you describe it. Hate to tell you, but if you ride a decent bike for a while, you'll find that good cable shifting has a substantial operator skill component. When tensioning the cable (upshifting front, downshifting rear), the velocity with which you shift is as important as the correct cable uptake for getting a good, clean shift. A good rider instinctively adjusts to a huge number of conditions when doing this; temperature, where in the cassette you currently are and where you're going, cadence, and drive train condition all affect this. If you want to model all of that and program accordingly, have fun. It shouldn't take more than a few years and a few million $.

Well, playing OP-advocate, keep in mind that this probably isn't aimed at someone riding a decent bike long enough to develop this feel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that this is intended for the casual, occasional rider. See the Landrider threads.

If my memory is any good Mavic had an electronic shifting system a few years ago. It didn't go over very well.

SB

If you can make it lightweight, reliable, and reasonably affordable, I am sure that it would sell. Not to me though. This is the combination that no one has been able to come up with yet.

I would like to address one thing:


Using a computer also allows incorporating both front and rear derailleur into a single control and programming allows the computer to determine which chain ring to use for any particular ratio favoring the chain ring and cog combination used to keep the chain as straight as possible to prevent excessive chain deflection and ensuring swift and smooth shifting.

This is a gross misconception of what multiple chainrings are for. We see this here time and time again. Two chainrings does not make a 10 speed cassette into 20 (or 30 for a triple) speed bike. You do not shift the chainrings to follow a sequential gear ratio pattern. The chainrings are not shifted to maintain chainline (not counting some of our more anal bretheren). The chainrings are shifted to provide different speed ranges. A double with a 10 speed cassette basically has two speed ranges. Low speed with 9 gears (some people limit to 8). And high speed with 9 gears (or 8). A triple has three speed ranges Low, Med, and High with 9, 10, 9 respectively. A front change, if using your gears correctly, is a relatively rare thing. You may want to think long and hard about auto shifting the front. An out of the saddle front shift could throw someone right over the handlebars. You may be addressing this with speed and cadence input.

I have developed a computer controlled shifting system........

Just curious.......so who exactly are these folks who come on BF with these ideas and research polls from time to time and never hear from them again?

I don't even like cars with automatic shifting. The more moving parts, the more often things break down. How big of a tool kit might you need to carry to fix this thing when (not if) it breaks?

If I wanted something to do all the work for me - I would drive a car.

i dont know... I am torn on this issue. I think the concept is cool, but I think it would be ghey in execution.

Sorry man to tell you that electronic automatic shifting already exists thanks to Shimano and the Smover project.

Check www.smover.com

oh, and the suspension is automatically controlled too according to the terrain.

Ricardo

OK, I will describe the system and how it operates. I have obtained paperwork to prevent others from using the idea until I decide to spend money on it. A basic stamp computer drives two stepper motors that pull the cables and subsequently the derailleur mechanisms. This shift system may be placed between the normal shifters and derailleur so you may use your normal cable shifters as a backup system. Friction type shifters could be incorporated in the computer controlled shifter system if desired eliminating very expensive shifters combined with the brake levers or bar-con types and eliminating shifter cables on the handlebars. Using a programmable computer like the basic stamp* allows any length of cable pull for any derailleur system. You could even have the computer compensate for a worn or defective derailleur where one or two cogs never shift correctly or the manufacturer put differing spacer widths between the cogs so only there index shifter would operate correctly with there cassette. Using a computer also allows incorporating both front and rear derailleur into a single control and programming allows the computer to determine which chain ring to use for any particular ratio favoring the chain ring and cog combination used to keep the chain as straight as possible to prevent excessive chain deflection and ensuring swift and smooth shifting. Only three wires are used to connect the switches to the shift computer and only simple switches placed between the wires signal the computer to shift up or down. Any number of switches may be placed along this length of three-wire cable. A wireless shift control system would also be very easy to incorporate eliminating the cable. Two switches placed on the side of either the left or right glove index finger with a small transmitter on the backside of the glove allows up or down shifting by simply pressing the buttons with the thumb or pressing them ageist the brake lever, handlebar, or anything else for that matter. Batteries are not a big problem in weight or size. 5 Volts is all that is required for the stepper motors and a standard 9 Volt battery operates the computer for many weeks of constant use and all may be lightweight Ni-Cd or Ni-MH types. A hub generator could easily keep the batteries charged with very little drag for long distance touring and provide lighting as well. This system would be capable of using any manufactures components and infinitely updateable to any future changes made by any of them.

This is sounding a lot better now. If you completely replace the mechanic shifters and use just a very short cable (like 2 inches), you eliminate half the shifting problems people have: dirty, sticky, streched cables, housing that compresses, etc.

Having just an "up" and a "down" button and the computer figuring out how to keep a good chainline and where to shift sounds really-really good. Forget the asinine comment about how shifting on the front is not there to keep a straight chainline but to increase gear range. Of course it does both...
However, I'm convinced it wouldn't work. You have to know when you're shifting on the front so you don't put in too much power and have a nice big crash when the chain falls off.


Shimano, Mavic and Campy have all been trying to do pretty much the same thing (only they integrated the motor into the derailleurs and did away with cables altogether) for a decade and more, and they all failed. It seems very unlikely that you could succeed. Still, the idea sounds like it could work. At least people could use their good old der.'s, so trying your system would not be too much of a plunge... If you can make the motors, batteries and control units cheap, light, reliable, programmable and sturdy, you are on to something.

Have you even started putting together a prototype, or everything still only on paper? One problem seems to me to be that quite a bit of power is needed for some upshifts under load. There is no way in hell that a system that is cheap, light and doesn't eat its batteries in 2 hours can put out that sort of power. Especially at the front.

Again, we are back to geared hubs. I think they don't need that much oomph to get them to change.

Forget the asinine comment about how shifting on the front is not there to keep a straight chainline but to increase gear range. Of course it does both...

If chainrings were there to maintain chainline, there would be multiple chainrings of the same size. Two or three large and two or three small. The CHAIN, and the whole drivetrain for that matter, is designed so you don't have to maintain chainline. Since a properly set up double or triple can use everything except big/big and small/small, according to Shimano (they might actually know), shifting the front soley to maintain chainline is asinine.

Just curious.......so who exactly are these folks who come on BF with these ideas and research polls from time to time and never hear from them again?

Hobbyists that tinker around with stuff and come up different ways of doing things like me. Where else would you go to get a free marketing survey than where people hang out and talk about their favorite things to do? I have been biking for years but now that I am retired I enjoy tinkering around and have time for extended bike trips. I built my computerized shifting system and added it to a Specialized Cross Roads Hybrid bike I picked up for $5 and spent another $75 for tires, cables, racks, and bags. I didn't particularly like the thumb shifters but as there made into the brake levers and I did not want to spend more money on shifters I went with the computer. I scrounged the stepper motors out of old computer floppy disk drives and made the cams for cable deflection on a mill. I have arthritis which prompted building the shift computer. Shifting is now effortless and easy and no worries about finger pain on occasion when the arthritis flares up. It does take some getting used too. Pressing the up or down shift button causes a stepper motor to whine and a moment later you feel the shift change. When the computer needs to switch the chain ring a beep proceeds that so you can back off on the pedal pressure until you feel the chain jump to the other chain ring. Sometimes this also causes a shift of two or three cogs on the cassette as well so you don’t end up with the chain at opposite sides of there respective sprockets like having the chain on the big chain ring all the way to the right and be on the biggest cog on the cassette all the way on the left or vice versa. The computer emits two beeps in this case just to warn you about that. As for switching to manual shifting as backup, you simply rotate the cams manually so there is no cable deflection and use the shifters as normal. You could attach levers to them and think of them as friction shifters.

< Shimano, Mavic and Campy have all been trying to do pretty much the same thing (only they integrated the motor into the derailleurs and did away with cables altogether) for a decade and more, and they all failed.>

Yes, I looked at all of them and considered them to be way to complicated and un-necessary way of doing it. I know the reasoning behind it. It's a way to force you into converting to their system and not simply adding a system to anyone's and everyone's current equipment. If I were to market the system it would be placed on the down tube where down tube shifters would be placed on normal bikes. This allows easy access by the rider for switching to manual shifting in the event the system fails and possibly using manual shifters attached to the computerized shift system.
As for problems shifting the front derailleur, It does take more time for the front derailleur to shift as the little stepper motor has to pull the cable a longer distance through it's gearbox attached to it's cam.

I've been seeing Infomercials, around.. 3 AM When there's nothing else on advertising a bike, called Land Crusier, or something to that affect, and.. It's got an automatic shifting system. It looked like a piece of junk, actually. Ontop of this, Automatic is NEVER good.. Ever had an auto car? The transmission will go to hell in a few short years, and is nearly impossible to replace and synchronize. I'll stick to manual, lol. But, I imagine for older folks it would be a good idea, just alot of money, maintence, and trouble.

I've been seeing Infomercials, around.. 3 AM When there's nothing else on advertising a bike, called Land Crusier, or something to that affect, and.. It's got an automatic shifting system. It looked like a piece of junk, actually. Ontop of this, Automatic is NEVER good.. Ever had an auto car? The transmission will go to hell in a few short years, and is nearly impossible to replace and synchronize. I'll stick to manual, lol. But, I imagine for older folks it would be a good idea, just alot of money, maintence, and trouble.
It's not automatic at all. You must figure out on your own if you need a lower or higher gear. This thing is like a robot that shifts for you when you tell it what you want to do. Before I retired I was a Gas Turbine Systems Tech for the Army. Gas Turbine and Jet engines use cables to control movable stator vanes in the engine much like a bicycle derailleur system. I just did the same cable and motor drive the same as the engines use. Pretty simple and reliable. With a bicycle you cant depend on a stable electrical power source and hence you need old reliable shifters as well if you let the batteries give out while out on a long tour.

That automatic shift system has a ball governor on the rear derailleur. You have seen them on old steam engines! This thing is just a miniature version of it. As the governor rotates it slings around some weights. When your peddling slows the weights change position and as there connected to the derailleur it changes position as well shifting to a lower gear so you can keep peddling at the same cadence. It works, sort of. If you try coasting, like down a hill, the governor stops rotating and thinks you need a lower gear, the lowest one as a matter of fact! Worse is the fact that your not peddling and it's trying to shift gears. If you're on flat ground and want to pedal all the time and you don't mind shifting the front derailleur manually and paying too much for a cheap bike…… then you might want one.

Just curious.......so who exactly are these folks who come on BF with these ideas and research polls from time to time and never hear from them again?

They are the people I enjoy hearing from. People with new ideas who are sane enough to want a reality check. We might hear from them if we are not too harsh with them.

something much more interesting would be auto-shifting based on cadence and pedal pressure.

the market for your product would be entry level bikes. There would be substantial appeal at a much lower price point. (not a poll option) As to whether it is worth patenting, depends on whether the lower price point could ever be reached.

Electronic shifting, "automatic transmissions", and the like for bicycles are tyically solutions in search of a problem. Current index shifting systems are so accurate and so easy to use that "automating" them only adds a large amount of cost and complexity (and, so far, unreliability) to no benefit.

Electronic shifting, "automatic transmissions", and the like for bicycles are tyically solutions in search of a problem. Current index shifting systems are so accurate and so easy to use that "automating" them only adds a large amount of cost and complexity (and, so far, unreliability) to no benefit.

Great statement. What we basically have with index shifting is not far from pushbutton or paddle shifting anyway.

i say lets see it!!!! there is a difference with compouter controled shifting and auto matic shifting. and it all comes down to weight.

automatic shifting is for people who are like 100 years old and can barley pedal.

but computer assisted electronic shifting i would like to see..... and it still uses a battery of some kind. i would hate to be ridding and all the sudden....... "crap, i cant shift anymore. my battery is dead!"

hehe, that sounds like something shimano would do like trying to put the freewheel on the crank or nearly double the diameter of the threaded area of the pedal (both of which they tried)....because it's revolutionary and stupid. I think that you have a good idea here, I also think that you need to make it work right, patent it, and stick it on a rider in an event if you want to go anywhere. I have a cousin who started a frame company and that worked great for him. While I think that there isn't really a way to make sti shifters better I thought the same about indexed tip shifters before I had heard of STI's. The thing about putting them in multiple locations sounds really nice. While I like manually shifting my bike and hate driving automatic cars, think female frames are stupid, and figure BMX is what happens when a bicycle is born stunted and overweight there are people who respect and pay for that stuff, and pay a lot at times. I recently watched a woman spend $80 to put heavy, ugly, plastic wheels on her son's wallmart bike that was heavier than him. I might not like it but it's immoral to let stupid people keep their money so if you have the spare time call it a side project and do your civic duty, just don't expect to find a lot of interest here until some pro is using it.

Ever had an auto car? The transmission will go to hell in a few short years, and is nearly impossible to replace and synchronize.
Well, I dislike automatic transmissions as much as anyone but what you wrote isn't true and hasn't been for decades. Modern automatics are very reliable and durable and most will outlast the rest of the car. Their downside is cost, a reduction in fuel mileage and the fact they take a lot of the skill out of driving.

OHHH, I can hear it now.......My chain is rubbing in the front, can you re-format my hard drive?