Living Car Free - Mods are messing with the forum. Do you think this is right?

No, I'm not. I don't know about you, but I don't see my travelling to work everyday, or travelling to the grocery store or anywhere else I need to go to be a political act aimed at promoting a "cause". I don't see how utilising the most practical transportational option for those trips is a political act either.
I agree with Chris L here. There are some political issues surrounding car free like dealing with people but for me too, car free just makes too much sense. I used to work in a place where the other bike commuters (not car free) were all on the opposite side of the political spectrum from me. Politics never came up when we talked about cycle transport and cycle transport never came up when we talked politics. I'm not comfortable when some group, especially car driving environmentalists or members of some political party, tries to claim me as one of them. I'm not, I'm just as Chris L says "..utilising the most practical transportational option...".

I'm not comfortable when some group, especially car driving environmentalists or members of some political party, tries to claim me as one of them. I'm not, I'm just as Chris L says "..utilising the most practical transportational option...".

If by car driving environmentalists your are referring to me, I have never claimed to be an environmentalist. Nor am I a vegetarian (I love a nice juicy steak). I am certainly not car free (though I have been in the past and may be again). I am not sure therefore how I could claim you as part of some movement I belong to.

On the car free issue, I am middle of the road. If it works for you great. If you feel you need a car great. I just don't understand why everyone needs to circle mall parking lots in monster trucks and then wait 10 minutes in the drive-thru for a Big Mac while complaing to a television reporter that the Big Mac is costing you twice as much because of the high price of gas. Seems wasteful and rather stupid to me.

You see, I went through my "I want to change the world" phase some years ago. I came out the other side largely because I realised that the things I do in my everyday life have virtually zero effect on how the world operates. If politcal factors were my motivation for being car free, I would have given up and bought a car years ago. It's this sort of politicising of the simple act of riding a bicycle that drives so many people away from cycling advocacy and indeed cycling generally.
I'm very sorry that you have lost your idealism. But i'm glad you still ride a bike. And actually, I don't think you have lost your idealism, because posting here is a political act, even if riding is not. In other words, riding a bike does not constitute a political act, but discussing reasons for it--on this forum or elsewhere--is political, even if you don't intend it to be.

I don't think that many people ride a bike for political reasons. But I do believe that many people are carfree for political reasons, to one degree or another. I know I am.

BTW, the things you do in your daily life will not change the world, but the things that large numbers of people do in their daily life will change the world. The only way we can make those changes a positive thing (as opposed to who wins American Idol) is to discuss, plan, organize and work together. For example, women are voting these days, many individuals worked together to make that happen.

its their forum they can move what ever they want

I see you live in Australia. Things are probably different there, but here in the U.S., non recreational cycling is interpreted by many non-cyclists as a political statement even if not intended. During the Republican convention, many cyclists were arrested just for cycling in Manhattan (including at least one delivery guy).

Australia is effectively state number 51. I recently returned from New Zealand, and was astonished at just how different the culture there was from here, but that's another rant. Personally I don't let the views of anyone else affect how I perceive what I do. The fact that a few uninformed zealots want to perceive my travelling to work as a political act does not make it so in my view.


It seems impractical to divide the car free forum in two for political and practical discussions. It seems easier just to skip over the threads that are uninteresting. If others choose to post to them, I don't see the problem.

It's a nice idea in theory, but you have to consider the herd mentality prevalent on most internet fora. Basically, once someone is allowed to start a political thread in this forum, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon, and before too long you'll find the practical threads being taken over by political rants. Just have a look at the Advocacy and Whining forum and see how long a thread about reflective gear lasts before becoming another EC vs BS debate.

Since we cannot get into P & R at this time... no it is not right. But then again, while we do enjoy posting here, utimately the forum is not strictly ours, but Joe's.

Since we cannot get into P & R at this time... no it is not right. But then again, while we do enjoy posting here, utimately the forum is not strictly ours, but Joe's.
True, and KMart owns the store, but that doesn't stop me from complaining when they don't provide a decent place to park bikes. There's nothing wrong with complaining, just try to be constructive.

I think that the moderators should use a light hand. We are continually trying to encourage people to visit this forum and a bit of controversy helps that. I think energy issues, SUV stats, and the costs of driving should all be fair game.

I also think that the mods will occasionally have weak moments or goof. Making a fuss might remind them that we don't always notice them, but they have a power that affects us that should be used with wisdom. (An apology when they goof wouldn't hurt. It might help make real disputes fewer.)

Roody, I think you have raised the issue correctly and with the right tone.

True, and KMart owns the store, but that doesn't stop me from complaining when they don't provide a decent place to park bikes. There's nothing wrong with complaining, just try to be constructive.

Oh I complained, and I agree that it is not right. But I don't think it's gonna do any good.

Oh I complained, and I agree that it is not right. But I don't think it's gonna do any good.
Well, sometimes whinin' is more fun than winnin'. :)

But I do think the admins of this forum have a pretty good track record of being responsive to user gripes. At least that's been my experience.

Also, I think it's good that we air this issue. I was interested in how some people do think the forum is too political, but for many that's one of the attractions of it. I have two suggestions how we users can keep it good:


Make your thread titles descriptive so people don't have to waste time on topics don't interest them.
Don't hijack threads by getting too far off the topic. In other words, try to keep your political thoughts out of apolitical threads. OTOH, just skip a political thread if you're not interested in it.

its their forum they can move what ever they want
+1 If you don't like it, start your own forums site.

Make your thread titles descriptive so people don't have to waste time on topics don't interest them.
Don't hijack threads by getting too far off the topic. In other words, try to keep your political thoughts out of apolitical threads. OTOH, just skip a political thread if you're not interested in it.


Good ideas. One further suggestion would be to refrain from commenting on the current U.S. administration or the war in Iraq since those issues are tangential at best to the politics of carfree living. The Democrats in Washington are no more likely to ride their bike to Capitol Hill than the Republicans.

I agree. I read the cost of a car thread...very good information and advacocy for commuting by bike.

I agree, but I also agree that actions speak louder than words....example....I dont say a word about commuting by bike to my co workers...I just do it, and they ask me more questions than I ever expected about it, and two have self converted...that'll make a stronger commuter than someone who was talked into it or pressured into it...I think you have to find it on your own, and have it be your own to go through with ending the love affair with the car. Ok, that has nothing to do with moving threads...fine, move 'em, it's not like theyre going TOTALLY commie on you and deleting them.

Moving is a form of censorship if it makes it difficult for people to find your message. I agree that we usually have good (great, really) management on BikeForums. But these moves, particularly the car cost thread, make no sense to me.
This is as far as I could read before the gag reflex kicked in. May I suggest removing the stick from your butt? My thread on bicycling vs bi/motorcycling got moved to foo. Cry me a river. Deal with it unless you want to start your own forum.

If I owned this forum that kind of whining would have you banned. I ran a tight ship with the put up or shut up motto and it worked well.

It is fascinating to see here such distinct ways of relating to (and wielding) authority.

I am unsure of what to make of multiple suggestions here that this thread should be boiled down to simply pointing out who is in charge.

It seems that people are saying that because someone is in charge they are automatically correct. Or that issues of judgment should not be discussed.

I’m curious, was there any response to this thread or subsequent complaints beyond Koffee’s last post here?

It is fascinating to see here such distinct ways of relating to (and wielding) authority.

I think this is one of the most interesting things about the whole site!

There are other positions that I see a great deal that I also find common here but rarely hear elsewhere - "it doesn't affect me, so it's not a problem,""you can avoid the issue by [fill in with some whacko second class citizen approach]," and "they own it, they can do what they want."

All of these leave me wondering whether these attitudes are common, and I am simply very isolated from the mainstream or whether those who post here are some subgroup that is very different from me. Around election time I tend to favor the first theory (how else to explain the unexplainable results) and most of the time I favor the second.

It looks like the forum administration is starting to move any threads that are "too political" to P & R or Foo. Koffee Brown moved two in the past 24 hours.

One move I can understand. My own thread, "Why America can't win a war" arguably was too political for this thread, and maybe moving it to P & R was a good idea. (Of course, I can also think of several reasons why it should not have been moved, if there had ever been a discussion of the issue.)

But I sure can't see any sense to moving jayhuse's thread, "How much is your car costing you?" to Foo. Koffee said that the thread was in no way "relevant to cycling." That's crazy talk! One of the main reasons for people to ride bikes is the cost of the car! In fact, I believe this is one of Koffee's own reasons for riding a bike. How then is car costs irrelevant to cycling and especially carfree cycling?

I very much enjoy and benefit from "practical" threads that include tips on trailers and panniers. But we can only go so far with this kind of thread. Many, maybe most of us, do have a political or environmentalist reason for being carfree. We hope to convince othes that these reasons are valid and relevant to their own cycling lives. Eliminating discussion of these issues, in my opinion, will make this whole forum irrelevant and barely worth reading.

Don't personalize the moderators, or even the forum. Posters are the sum of the post's they make. I agree with you but start another thread with the ideas more pointed and connect them clearly. Don't take it personal, and think about what you want the members understand in an original way.
If your goal is have more people drop in to carfree, be encouraged, and consider it a viable option, a long thread about "My" ideas and "My" thoughts in a different virtual location is at best whining, at worst labels us as the 40 yr old virgin- a stereotype.
I have had threads pulled and debated the sanctity of "my" ideas, and well seems silly now.

Don't personalize the moderators, or even the forum. Posters are the sum of the post's they make. I agree with you but start another thread with the ideas more pointed and connect them clearly. Don't take it personal, and think about what you want the members understand in an original way.
If your goal is have more people drop in to carfree, be encouraged, and consider it a viable option, a long thread about "My" ideas and "My" thoughts in a different virtual location is at best whining, at worst labels us as the 40 yr old virgin- a stereotype.
I have had threads pulled and debated the sanctity of "my" ideas, and well seems silly now.
How did you get so smart? Thanks! :)

+1 If you don't like it, start your own forums site.

I have. So, now I am having the fun of being an Admin...lol! I have not posted a link to the site yet (a new discussion board dealing with everyday cycling) because I am not sure where to put it, or if it would violate a rule to do so (I cannot tell for sure what the rule is). (I am about to ask for a ruling on this.)

As for the "Mod problem"? I have been a Mod on sites owned by others, and was often accused of being heavy-handed, especially when dealing with errant threads. I am quite "strict", and like to maintain order, which means splitting threads into two or more topics (which is often warranted), removing troublesome posts/threads, moving threads, and even deleting stuff for good. To do this well and consistently--being fair to all-- is not easy.

Let's face it, nobody likes a Mod...they are the target of anybody who has an axe to grind. Just doing what appears to be the proper thing is bound to get someone hot under the collar, no matter how "tight" the guidelines/rules are, or aren't. Bike Forums is one of the best-moderated sites that I have seen yet...and there is plenty of potential "flame-bait" in many areas of cycling discussion. The fact that there has NOT been a problem with flame wars--or any real disorder among the membership of any kind--here says volumes about the professionalism of the Mods and the Administrators here at BF.

I salute all of you on the staff...and good work Joe!