Folding Bikes - Brompton & Merc Folders

My wife and I have been testing out folders for a few months. For our tastes, the portability of the Brompton/Merc folders along with its decent ride is trumping a lot of other folders. However there are still a few issues where a few opinions and advice would be helpful.

The first, of course, is the whole Brompton versus Merc debate. I read a series of threads on the issue--I simply searched "Brompton vs Merc" and spent an hour or two in front of the computer--and saw the favorable Merc reviews. I am strongly leaning towards the Merc but it appears that the version offered now is similar to the M-type 3 speed Brompton instead of the version Waveshrdr reviewed earlier. But more on this later ...

We have only ridden 2 and 3 speed Bromptons. While Washington DC is not as hilly as Denver or San Francisco, it still has a considerable amount of variation and we would take the bikes on trips. So getting a wider gear range is an important issue. But the 6 speed increases the range marginally. I searched the YAHOO Bromtontalk group for additional solutions. I found the following:

1) Add a front derailer -- YAHOO message #27131 plus many more

2) Add an internal geared crank -- Schlumph Mountain Drive

3) Change the rear sprockets on the 6 speed -- YAHOO message #28250

Approximate prices for 1) and 2) can be found at http://www.foldabikes.com/PriceListHTML/plSection.php?1 . As one can see, the Mountain Drive is pretty expensive; but the front derailer option looks reasonable. The individual with the 12/18 sprockets on the 6 speed was unable to get the rear derailer to work smoothly. Although a smaller spread (while still wider than the original 13/15) would probably work better.

One question I have is whether the derailer clamp can be used with the aluminum Merc. Anecdotally, it appears that most aluminum bikes have braze-on derailers. I always wondered--but not enough to actually discover the answer--whether the lack of clamps was due to the material or oversized seat tubes.

Another issue is that the ergonomics on the Brompton are a little squished for me. I would want to be able to extend the reach a bit and perhaps have a little flexibility with bar height. There is an interesting modification (see YAHOO message #19220) where a quill stem replaces a suspension handlebar post. I was wondering whether the suspension handlebar post that WAVESHRDR discussed in an earlier thread has that ability. The seat can be moved back a bit either by rotating the saddle adapter pin or with the aftermarket post linked below. Does anyone have any experience with the post or general comments on altering the Brompton/Merc fit?

http://www.calhouncycle.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=111&idproduct=873

There was a considerable amount of discussion on the weight of the Brompton versus the Merc. From what I gather the conclusion is that the overall weight of the bikes are similar except that the Merc has a lighter aluminum frame but the Brompton has a lighter rear triangle/fork (the Brompton and Merc forks are cro-mo and hi-ten steel, respectively). Assuming that this is true, is it possible to purchase just the rear triangle/fork from a Brompton dealer? Have I characterized their relative weights correctly? From this can I infer that the Brompton with the titanium forks and rear triangle is lighter than the Merc.

Lastly, how has the Merc been holding up with respect to reliability?

Thanks for reading

-G





P.S. I decided to start a new thread since the date on "Bringing Merc to the USA" is failing to update. More generally, I thought that the thread's title was no longer appropriate.

OK, where to start. IF you want the lightest version possible go with the Merc and buy the Ti bits from Brompton. I have a set of them. If you want a basic Merc but you want the rear triangle, I have one of those with a Brompton SA hub too.

What doesn’t show up exactly correct is that the Merc weighs more than a Brompton even with the Merc’s lighter frame because it has more accessories on it. It has a kickstand too that isn’t exactly lightweight. However said kickstand allows you to actually use the rear rack instead of folding it under the bike to act as a kickstand. The Merc also has a dynamo and a light too.

The front derailleur mount on my Merc is a clamp on and works fine. Don’t forget that the Merc also comes with the luggage carrier bracket and bag. An expensive upgrade on the Brompton.

As you have noticed the 6spd doesn’t gain you too much with respect to gearing range. I wouldn’t go with a Schlump Mtn. drive up front. I’d gear the front shorter and go with a speed drive or high speed Schlumpf drive. It makes more sense.

As for reach my Merc is more comfy than my Brompton was. Don’t forget you can slide the seat back in its mount too to extend your reach if necessary. I am not a small guy and I can get comfy on either bike. FYI I may be selling my Merc6. Not because I don’t love it (as I do) but I am looking at building one from scratch with a frame I will be getting from Merc. Mine has the amazingly upgraded brakes too.

One other major (for me) plus the Merc has over the B is I like the twist-grip shifter vs. the thumb ones on the B. Much more intuitive. One thing that is nice that the Merc has is the little clip to keep the rear from falling under the bike when you pick it up. This is a nice touch too. You could of course add it to a B and if I owned one I’d definitely do it.

I've put 430 logged miles on my Merc now since I bought it in mid April, and I've found it pretty sound. I needed to true the back wheel after I took it touring on rough roads with a heavy load (I was camping), and I found the dynamo needed a bit of fiddling with the contact on the wire the other night, but it still looks great and performs way better than I thought it would. I use it EVERY time I have a cycling opportunity, and I have two pretty good mountain bikes as well.

On the gearing thing. When I first got it, I felt it was over geared, and planned to get a smaller front chainring, but now, I don't think it is, and as I got more confident in it, I realised I could stand up on the pedals and push hard on the 45inch bottom gear and get up almost anything I come up against.

Wavshredr's right about the cost of all the bags and stuff you get free with the Merc. I don't think an M3 comes with much beside the bare bones bike (but you can check on that yourself).

The only thing I really would like are better brakes. I rode my mountain bike the other day and applied them like I do to slow the Merc and I nearly went over the bars, however, that's exactly how the Brompton is.

The only thing I really would like are better brakes. I rode my mountain bike the other day and applied them like I do to slow the Merc and I nearly went over the bars, however, that's exactly how the Brompton is.

That is why I loved my Merc vs. the normal Merc or Brompton. The brakes rock! A pad upgrade will help though. Get the Kool-Stop salmon mtn. bike ones. They work MUCH better than the stock ones and don't eat your rims up!

Hi Guys. Thanks for the responses. Not only for your responses to this thread, but for taking the time in the past. You two provided a real service.

Sorry about the vague comparison to the M-3 Brompton. I just meant that the GT-3 Merc has that type of handlebar and a 3 speed hub. Both of you are absolutely corect regarding the cost of all of the options. It is a major reason to go with the Merc. Just to make sure that this remains an advertisement, the Merc also comes with a carry bag and telescoping post. :D

I never saw the pictures of your bike WAvESHRDR. But I think that my mental picture is pieced together from your posts. Can the suspension handlebar post be replaced with a quill stem as in the earlier example? I also read that you actually bought a Ti Brompton to get the parts. Is it possible to simply get the fork/triangle? Can I write that your experience with the front derailer is a success?

What is the weight savings from hi-ten to cro-mo to titanium?

Size wise, I am just a little too big for the standard seat post on a Brompton: I like to say 6', but on a bad day I am more like 5' 11". However, on my regular bikes I like my seat high.

By the way, am I right about the material for the forks and rear triangle? That the standard Brompton is cro-mo while the Merc hi-ten steel.

So EvilV, you actually went on a loaded tour (bike with camping gear) on the bike? That is impressive.

Even though the range is hardly improved with the 6 speed, the rear derailer does give a lot more options. We would want to use it on some long rides. I am thinking that the rear derailer will make life easier in the long run.

I am still waiting to hear back from Anita regarding the availability of the 6 speed and a few other questions. (I also inquired on a schedule for the 8 speed SA hub) I'll let everyone know her response.

Time for me to run. Take care!

-G

What doesn’t show up exactly correct is that the Merc weighs more than a Brompton even with the Merc’s lighter frame because it has more accessories on it. -Wavshrdr

With all my steel framed bikes-one dating from the 1960's-I go with a simple approuch to improving when it comes to optional accessories. I either do without it, subsitute another brand that might even do the accessory in question far better, or live with it until it breaks. Like modern cars, bikes are becoming more and more cluttered with excessive junk.

On the gearing thing. When I first got it, I felt it was over geared, and planned to get a smaller front chainring, but now, I don't think it is, and as I got more confident in it, I realised I could stand up on the pedals and push hard on the 45inch bottom gear and get up almost anything I come up against. -EvilV

The old English 3 speeds, the Brompton, and now it's competitor and mimic the Merc, is based on a basic seemingly limited range of gears that in actual use, is far more adapted to most range of terrain that I encounter here in my rather hilly neighborhood. My chainrings are all in the mid-forties and the rear cogs are probably similar in diameter. I never seem to honk or whatever the performance orientated rides seem to do on hills. I don't want to damage my good business clothes. I simply gear down to the level I need to accomplish the task at hand without too much taxing my body or bike.

One other major (for me) plus the Merc has over the B is I like the twist-grip shifter vs. the thumb ones on the B. Much more intuitive. One thing that is nice that the Merc has is the little clip to keep the rear from falling under the bike when you pick it up. This is a nice touch too. You could of course add it to a B and if I owned one I’d definitely do it. -Wavshrdr

The grip shifter is a nice touch for the performance person. But I find that the trigger shifter is more easy to replace, and to gently shift into another gear without grinding. I don't care to race my bike. As for the clip, I buy one when I get around to it. I prefer to let my bike quickly fold in since I take it on public transit alot. If I need to keep the rear end from dropping when I pick the bike up, I simply use a short bungee cord for right now.

For your purchase of either the Brompton or the Merc, let me sum up what is the most important part of the bike-that is you and your wife. That variable is the most forgotten and neglected part of the bike/rider "relationship." The only difference I can tell between the two bikes is the frame (steel-Brompton or aluminum-Merc) and all the fancy add ons offered at purchase. One of the things that Brompton offers is the retro fitting of most of it's accessories and even components like brakes. I go simple and see what I actually need as I go along with the "C." If there is a next time with another bike, I would know what I need and want and go from there. It is a growth thing with me. Confidence grows with knowledge of my needs vs. what the company wants to spoon feed my ego. Then I end up with what I want rather than going broke or trying to pass off the bike on another unsuspecting soul.

In my opinion (i don't own a Brompton:rolleyes: ), the Brompton (and now Merc) is a great piece of engineering. It is amazing how compact those bikes fold. The folded size is perfect for a lot usage. For me, since i don't fly often and don't take bus really more often (no buses in our 15000 peoples city), they would be perfect for car boot transport. I could nicely bring 2 in my tiny (by american standard) Chevy Tracker jeep. I could bring it in the office, at the cinema and all.

My biggest problem with Brompton and Merc is gear range. From what i read on Brompton Talk and this forum, a lot of peoples try to modify them to get a better gear range. Mountain/Speed drive, front derailler, 2 rear sprockets. I understand why Brompton do 3 speeds and 6 speeds bike only. I am not with them on this. If people want it why not build it?

What i prefer and could live easily with is 34", 41", 46", 52", 60", 65", 74". Sub-30" would be nice too. My Twenty do exactly what i want with this gear range. The folded package is far far from being as nice.

Note: I prefer derailler bikes. I was a bike mechanic for 10 years and i don't think i have seen more than 5 bikes with internal gear hub. Here, in Quebec, Canada i am sure no more than 5 bike mechanics can service a Sturmey Archer AW hub. From what i know, 3 speeds are efficient but 5-7 internal speeds hub are not that efficient. Maybe new 8 speeds are better.

Wouldn't it be nice to get as nice a folder as Brompton and a modern gear range on a stock bike? Technically, do you think a 126mm 7 speeds rear hub with derailler would increase the folded size by much? If not, maybe Merc could differentiate them by building a version with a greater gear range ? Then, a front derailler would make this bike even better for some buyer. Maybe a market exist. For myself, a Merc (or Brompton) folding bike with a 7 speeds (30-75") gear range (more with a front derailler) would be a perfect commuting/touring/travelling bike.

It is a dream. Bike are marvelous simple machine. The best machine ever in fact!

The problem with not owning a Brompton is that you don't get to look at one up close and see its gearing limitations. Spreading the chainstays as wide as 126mm would probably mean a new rear triangle will have to be built. This also means that the B. would not be as compact to fold, thus negating its main attribute. A modern derailleur would mean that the bike, when folded, would not tension the chain properly thus causing the chain potentially to drop off the rings when unfolding.

Sure all these limitations can be remedied (just look at Steve Parry's stuff). But is it worth it, and on whose dime?

We did not particularly care for the trigger/sliding shifter of the Brompton. Mind you, we have not tested the grip shifter for a comparison. Our impression was that the Brompton shifter was a bit awkward to use and aesthetically unappealing. However, I imagine that like anything else, one would get used to the different shifter in short order.

Another that occured to us is that having the three-speed internal hub, the two sprocket rear derailer, and the front derailer leads to three different shifters on the bike ...

... although I imagine that most of the time will be spent on the big chainring. The small chainring is just for steep hills and carrying loads.

-G

I personally don't like the trigger on the B. I do like the twist grip on the Merc and it is lower profile and more positive to use for me.

As for gearing range it isn't quite as limited as you might think. The bike is pretty light so I find I don't need a super low gear. The small tires climb quite well. The crank feels shorter so I can spin out in top gear easier. My Merc gets me pretty close to 300% which is better than a Nexus 7spd internal hub. I reckon the gear range is pretty good overall. Not great for blasting down a steep hill but it is low enough to climb well and I can cruise pretty fast on the flats. All in all it works much better than I thought it would.

As for gbouchar comments regarding repairing SA hubs, they tend to last a long time with minimal maintenance. I have yet to have any issues with any internal hub I've bought. Look at all the SRAM 3X7's on the road and they've had no issues that I've seen. Internal hubs just aren't as popular in the US and Canada as they are in Europe. For a commuter bike it is far and away my preference.

I personally don't like the trigger on the B. I do like the twist grip on the Merc and it is lower profile and more positive to use for me.

As for gearing range it isn't quite as limited as you might think. The bike is pretty light so I find I don't need a super low gear. The small tires climb quite well. The crank feels shorter so I can spin out in top gear easier. My Merc gets me pretty close to 300% which is better than a Nexus 7spd internal hub. I reckon the gear range is pretty good overall. Not great for blasting down a steep hill but it is low enough to climb well and I can cruise pretty fast on the flats. All in all it works much better than I thought it would.

As for gbouchar comments regarding repairing SA hubs, they tend to last a long time with minimal maintenance. I have yet to have any issues with any internal hub I've bought. Look at all the SRAM 3X7's on the road and they've had no issues that I've seen. Internal hubs just aren't as popular in the US and Canada as they are in Europe. For a commuter bike it is far and away my preference.


Completely agree with what you say about the twist grip gear change. It is very neat and positive. I don't know what the gearing range percentage is, but the gears are 45 inch, 60 inch, and 79 for the top, give or take for minor errors in measuring wheel circumference. In hilly terrain with a load aboard, I found this a bit tough at times when I was touring, and I have to admit to getting off more than once and pushing the outfit to the top, but I am 55, it was bloody hot, steep, and the bike had about forty pounds aboard her, hence the minor wheel truing problem after whizzing down a steep hill and running into a mess of potholes. I just touched up three of the spokes and it trued up nearly perfectly - only about a millimetre out now instead of about three.

Wavshrdr - thanks for the tip about the Koolstop brake pads, but I'm wondering about a retrofit of the brake mechanism that you have. Is it likely I could swap them out? Or maybe they're little cantilevers or something very different.

Here's the touring outfit parked outside a wayside inn - The Black Bull at Matfen, Northumberland, England.





Full size image here if you want detail:

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mercblackbull2bk.jpg

Equipped like that, did you have problems with your heels catching/rubbing on the panniers?

EV – they have braze-ons the forks for the mounts. You could have this done. There are places that do this. The Kool-Stop (Salmon colored MTB) pads will help too. This is very important to get the salmon colored MTB pads. You have to juggle them a little getting them in there and due to the small diameter rim they have to be aligned perfectly but what a great improvement. We go from marginal Brompton brakes to at least adequate. By adequate I mean they will actually slow you when needed but if you are heavily loaded, touring and in the hills I would still exercise caution.

The upgraded brakes on the Merc GT6 will stop on a dime and give you change. EV, another upgrade that will help is possible better levers in general. I don’t know on the Merc GT3 what they have but if they are like the C model Bromptons they are pitiful and pathetic. The higher end Brommies levers are better than the C models but still not great.

EV- if you can’t find anything PM me and I’ll see what I can do to help. If need be I could ship you something as US mail to the UK isn’t that expensive. I have found that compared to EU prices it would be cheaper to buy here and then send there even after you pay postage on smaller items. For example a mirror here that was $15 was 20Euro. It would cost about $4 or so to mail it via airmail. Still works out to be a decent cost savings especially if you buy several parts at once that aren’t super heavy.

The beauty of the Merc is it starts out inexpensive so even if you do upgrades that net you a better bike than a Brommie you still have less money in it. FYI, you could drop your gearing if you want to so it will climb hills better and give up a little top speed. For me I'll gladly make that trade-off as if necessary I can try and pedal faster.

We did not particularly care for the trigger/sliding shifter of the Brompton. Mind you, we have not tested the grip shifter for a comparison. Our impression was that the Brompton shifter was a bit awkward to use and aesthetically unappealing. -invisiblehand

I personally don't like the trigger on the B. I do like the twist grip on the Merc and it is lower profile and more positive to use for me...
.....regarding repairing SA hubs, they tend to last a long time with minimal maintenance. I have yet to have any issues with any internal hub I've bought. Look at all the SRAM 3X7's on the road and they've had no issues that I've seen. Internal hubs just aren't as popular in the US and Canada as they are in Europe. For a commuter bike it is far and away my preference. -Wavshrdr

Completely agree with what you say about the twist grip gear change. It is very neat and positive. -EvilV

The ugly Brompton shifter was taken off and replaced with something I liked far better-a traditional metal three speed shifter I kept as a spare for my other 2 bikes. The gear selection is clearly marked (1, 2, or 3), the shifting stick lever is small and non intrusive, and when and if the unit breaks-I get another one and replace the whole unit-rather than playing with little awkward parts. As for it's chances for failure, I still use a shifting unit from 40 years ago! It is still a matter of what works for the individual.

The most important part of the drivetrain is the hub. Those AW hubs are the best for the type of riding that I now do-commuting. The derailleur bikes I had up until 2 years ago were more of a headache than a help even for the hills surrounding me. I do not miss them at all.

...they have braze-ons the forks for the mounts. You could have this done. There are places that do this. The Kool-Stop (Salmon colored MTB) pads will help too. This is very important to get the salmon colored MTB pads. You have to juggle them a little getting them in there and due to the small diameter rim they have to be aligned perfectly but what a great improvement. We go from marginal Brompton brakes to at least adequate. By adequate I mean they will actually slow you when needed but if you are heavily loaded, touring and in the hills I would still exercise caution.
...The upgraded brakes on the Merc GT6 will stop on a dime and give you change. EV, another upgrade that will help is possible better levers in general. I don’t know on the Merc GT3 what they have but if they are like the C model Bromptons they are pitiful and pathetic. The higher end Brommies levers are better than the C models but still not great. -Wavshrdr

My "pitiful and pathetic" C Brompton has undergone a transformation. The most hated part of the bike (yes the brakes for me) has went it's first transformation. I have not decided on the braking system that I think would work for me, so I simply did some slight improvements on the stock brakes until I decide on the new braking system I want and would work as well as my Boardwalk's does. A brake pad change (Kool Stops) and rotating the levers up a bit helped greatly for comfort and stopping power, but I will not take it out in wet conditions or do much in the way of hill riding until I find what I want. The Merc's appeal of better brakes up front does not do much for me as I am not too keen on being too brand loyal or buying a bike based on just one or two parts. I still like to experiment on other makes of components to better reflect my needs-and continue to buy steel framed bikes only.

EV – they have braze-ons the forks for the mounts. You could have this done. There are places that do this. The Kool-Stop (Salmon colored MTB) pads will help too. This is very important to get the salmon colored MTB pads. You have to juggle them a little getting them in there and due to the small diameter rim they have to be aligned perfectly but what a great improvement. We go from marginal Brompton brakes to at least adequate. By adequate I mean they will actually slow you when needed but if you are heavily loaded, touring and in the hills I would still exercise caution.

The upgraded brakes on the Merc GT6 will stop on a dime and give you change. EV, another upgrade that will help is possible better levers in general. I don’t know on the Merc GT3 what they have but if they are like the C model Bromptons they are pitiful and pathetic. The higher end Brommies levers are better than the C models but still not great.

EV- if you can’t find anything PM me and I’ll see what I can do to help. If need be I could ship you something as US mail to the UK isn’t that expensive. I have found that compared to EU prices it would be cheaper to buy here and then send there even after you pay postage on smaller items. For example a mirror here that was $15 was 20Euro. It would cost about $4 or so to mail it via airmail. Still works out to be a decent cost savings especially if you buy several parts at once that aren’t super heavy.

The beauty of the Merc is it starts out inexpensive so even if you do upgrades that net you a better bike than a Brommie you still have less money in it. FYI, you could drop your gearing if you want to so it will climb hills better and give up a little top speed. For me I'll gladly make that trade-off as if necessary I can try and pedal faster.

Thanks for the information Wavshrdr. I think I'll try the Koolstops before going to the braze on modification. If it improves the performance enough, I'll leave it alone, but I have to do something. On a hill I ride every day, I can apply the front brake at 15 mph and just sail on down without a chance of stopping unless I put the rear brake on as well and SQUEEZE until my knuckles go white. Thanks for the kind offer to arrange shipment. Leave it with me a while, because they are probably available here. I have to go to the bike shop today, because yesterday, I bust a spoke in the rear wheel. There's a Brompton dealer about ten miles away who may keep the right type of spoke. It looks to be about 152 mm - same as the Brompton rear, but I'm not sure what gauge it is. It's the same as the front, so it's probably a 14 gauge spoke. Brompton upgraded their early design from 14 gauge rear spokes to 13. While I'm there, I'll ask about the salmon Koolstops.

I didn't realise I'd bust a spoke until I was cleaning the bike yesterday afternoon, but I did hear a sharp metalic twang yesterday morning as I was pedalling along, and thought I'd run over some debris. I stopped and looked but could see none. Strange really, I hadn't hit a pothole or anything, I was just accellerating after a junction.

Bookishboy -

Yes, I did have a bit of bother with the heal / pannier contact. I mounted the bag as far to the rear as I could and had to use my instep for pedal contact, rather than the ball of my foot - a bit un-natural at first, but I got used to it.

Busted spokes and Bromptons go hand in hand. To hear this happening on the Merc means Merc has copied the design pretty well. :D

Keep in mind that EV was carrying a big load and probably never checked the spoke tension after riding it for a while. I had a Dahon that I had to check the spokes before every ride to make sure I had no issues. They loosened up a lot. If I hadn't done that as frequently as I did I would have busted a ton of them in short order.

For most bikes, only a cursory check is needed nowadays as most wheels come pretty well (machine) made. Bromptons, in general, seem to be the only exception whether loaded or even moderately loaded; the newsgroup is full of these kinds of stories. However, I have a feeling it's because they are trying to 3 cross 13 guage spokes. When I had to get my wheel rebuilt after two months, the LBS used 14 guage for 2 cross. Not like I care what Merc does, but if they're getting their wheels built by the same builder, that's a shame.

As far as Dahon goes, my reading from various sources is that their frames are good but their components and integrated technology can be spotty, and it's not model dependent either. For me, I like what I got, except for the faulty front hub. Would I buy Dahon again? Not any time soon; I'm pretty much going to stick with Bike Friday for the forseeable future. Besides, I'm in the process of trying to turn my Bridgestone MB-6 into a road rocket, maybe with 700c wheels. ;)

I fixed the spoke. I got ten at a bike shop specialising in folders for £2.60, which I thought was pretty cheap.

The cause I think is that Merc use 14 gauge spokes on front and back wheels. Apparently, Brompton swapped over to using heavier 13 gauge spokes on the rear wheel a long time ago after a spate of breakages. I had tuned up the spokes a touch just about a month ago Wavshrdv, none were loose and the wheel was pretty well true as of a week ago when I last checked it. It had a slight run out of about 1mm, but I'd call that pretty well true. Also, when it pinged, I was the only load and I weigh about 170 pounds. I was accellerating out of the saddle though, but I ride a lot like that, especially on hills.

Anyway - all is fixed now and it was a doddle to refit the new 13 gauge spoke. It was a slightly tight fit getting it through the hub. I actually had to screw the threaded part into the hole in the hub, but once that was through the rest just slid in neatly.

Given that Brompton now use 13 gauge in the rear wheel, I expect the spare spokes I bought will come in handy before long.

FYI I may be selling my Merc6. Not because I don’t love it (as I do) but I am looking at building one from scratch with a frame I will be getting from Merc. Mine has the amazingly upgraded brakes too.

Wav, if you are selling, please let us know over here. I would love to buy a Merc6 at the right price :D

There was a discussion some time ago on the legality of Merc. The conclusion was that the patents expired so the design is open house for all producers. However, Brompton apparently copyrighted the appearance and style of their bike as well. Since it has held up in court in the past, they should have exclusivity on the design for another 50 or so years.

"Scoop" was the model name of a Brompton knock-off imported by a Netherlands company. There is a follow-up article on the same thread that discusses an out-of-court settlement.

Found at http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4692

Friday 24th September 2004
Brompton swoops on Scoop
Earlier this year, a consignment of 250+ folding bicycles was imported into Holland by Neobike Europe, a Dutch firm who distribute Taiwanese folding bikes in Europe. The bikes were branded Scoop, and, said Brompton, were based "almost exactly on the Brompton design." Brompton launched a lawsuit: and has just won it.

Brompton charged Neobike Europe with breach of copyright and/or authorship rights. Brompton's case was successful, with a judgement ruling that the Scoop bikes did indeed infringe Brompton's copyright: this ruling was made in Groningen on February 26th but details were not released until today.

Brompton also obtained an interim attachment order relating to the goods, and the bikes are now impounded, pending a final decision on their disposal.

Although Brompton's original patent covering the principle of folding has elapsed, the design and styling of the Brompton nonetheless have copyright protection, and this has been confirmed by the Groningen judgement.

"Many other excellent and original new designs of folder have also appeared in recent years, and we welcome such competition: it genuinely serves to generate interest in the concept," said Brompton's founder Andrew Ritchie.

"But we are not happy to see products with styling contrived to be similar to that of the Brompton: this confuses the consumer, and can do damage to the marque, especially if performance and/or quality is not as good. Brompton has pioneered many refinements that make a portable bike a pleasure to own and use, and our designs involve great attention to detail and an unrivalled understanding of how such bikes are used. This is what has secured our success, and naturally we do not wish to see this undermined by copiers with little feel for how a quality portable bike should perform."

Translation from Dutch of the key point (section 4.1) of the Groningen judgement:

Firstly in this case one must clarify whether the Brompton does in fact - as Brompton c.s. have maintained - possess an original character and bear an original mark of the maker, thus allowing the Brompton to enjoy copyright protection.
?One must conclude that this is indeed the case here. While it is undoubtedly true, as Van Ellen c.s. [Neobike Europe] have asserted, that the Brompton features various elements which, taken individually, can also be found in other foldable bicycle models, the specific combination of the folding technique, the design of the bicycle in the form of an "H" and the form of the handlebars in the form of a "U", all in combination with the bent horizontal frame tube, nevertheless mean that the Brompton, taken in its totality, can clearly be regarded as an original work with a personal mark of the maker.

When the Merc first appeared i felt fairly ambivalent about it (and even considered one to add to familly brompton & strida). But, now the more I think about Merc as a direct copy of Brompton, the more I wish Brompton best of luck and hope they are sucessful in suing Merc for copyright theft and get massive damages (if only the legal system was fair and affordable).

As consumers its easy for us to just see the sticker price and forget all the development thats gone into an original product. As in the music and video business' downloading doggy MP3's and buying obvious chinese imported DVD copies is cheaper - but is it right ? Similarly, Why should someone else (merc) benefit from the creative efforts of another (brompton), without their costs.

Theft is theft period !

----- Original Message -----
From: NoRMaN PHaY
To: BromptonTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: [BromptonTalk] Aargh @ "merc"

I saw an example of the "merc" brompton copy for the first time today
- a guy brought his into the shop because it had broken a spoke.
Unbelievable. Several of the parts, incl the rear chain tansioner
looked like they'd just taken a bromptom to bits and made moulds from
its components. I found myself feeling angry with the person who
bought it, and with the people who import it. Guy even had the cheek
to suggest I carry them in stock! Urgh at ethically twisted business
people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it odd that he still sold the spoke(s)?
Ethics indeed. :rolleyes:

So do you think there is copyright infrigement if somone takes the original design, modifies and then resells it? I hate to say it but there is so little original thought in many areas of engineering. Who is to say that Brompton didn't borrow their idea from someone else? Based on the quote from the copyright case many Dahons would infringe on Bromptons copyright. Who's to say that Merc isn't paying a licensing fee. I don't know. All I know is that my Merc is better than the last Brompton I road in many functional areas. I personally don't care that much for the Brompton styling NOR is the reason I bought it. I bought it for its function not its form.

So with respect to copyrights they are more about style than function. Patents cover function. It would be quite easy to slightly modify the desing to minimize infringement on Bromptons design. The Merc GT6 does not have bars in the shap of a U so that lessens the potential infringement. Then you have the issue of jurisdiction with respect to trademarks and were they were registered. It all becomes a big mess in many ways.

For me my Merc was much better than my Brompton regardless of how it looked.

Yo man, anyone can cook hamburgers but only one company gets to advertise the golden arches. That's the current contention as I read it.

In reality is a finite number of variations on a theme...

In the real world you have only a few ways to try and protect your IP; patents, trade secrets, trade marks and copyrights. All have their positive and negative aspects. Copyright laws are pretty much screwed up in the US anyway.

When the Merc first appeared i felt fairly ambivalent about it (and even considered one to add to familly brompton & strida). But, now the more I think about Merc as a direct copy of Brompton, the more I wish Brompton best of luck and hope they are sucessful in suing Merc for copyright theft and get massive damages (if only the legal system was fair and affordable).

As consumers its easy for us to just see the sticker price and forget all the development thats gone into an original product. As in the music and video business' downloading doggy MP3's and buying obvious chinese imported DVD copies is cheaper - but is it right ? Similarly, Why should someone else (merc) benefit from the creative efforts of another (brompton), without their costs.

Theft is theft period !

Well, I might have some sympathy with this if Brompton could even come near to meeting the demand there is in the UK for their product. When I bought the spokes at a small bike shop that sells Bromptons, he said it would take him a couple of months to get his hand on any more than he had as demo bikes.

The idea of their copyright in the structural form of the bike seems odd, to say the least. Have they control of the idea of an arched main beam? How so. It's a standard civil engineering principle. Can the first user of monocoque construction in cars rather than rigid chasis monopolise that idea? Ideas like locking down innovations in the styling fo standard products stifle competition. They got fifteen years or so of patent protection, and took the bike nowhere new - so sod them, I say. They can't even supply them in decent number and sell them at far too high a price. The neobike is available in Asia for about US $250.

----- Original Message -----
From: NoRMaN PHaY
To: BromptonTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: [BromptonTalk] Aargh @ "merc"

I saw an example of the "merc" brompton copy for the first time today
- a guy brought his into the shop because it had broken a spoke.
Unbelievable. Several of the parts, incl the rear chain tansioner
looked like they'd just taken a bromptom to bits and made moulds from
its components. I found myself feeling angry with the person who
bought it, and with the people who import it. Guy even had the cheek
to suggest I carry them in stock! Urgh at ethically twisted business
people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it odd that he still sold the spoke(s)?
Ethics indeed. :rolleyes:

Ha ha ha ha - that was me. I went to Norman's shop - LOL. So he was angry was he? I thought he was wee bit shirty.... LOL.

Ha ha ha ha - that was me. I went to Norman's shop - LOL. So he was angry was he? I thought he was wee bit shirty.... LOL.
;)

As long as you got what you wanted...

----- Original Message -----
From: NoRMaN PHaY
To: BromptonTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: [BromptonTalk] Aargh @ "merc"
. . .Urgh at ethically twisted business
people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it odd that he still sold the spoke(s)?
Ethics indeed. :rolleyes:

Is it odd? Seems like a merchant could get himself in trouble refusing to sell parts to a cash customer just because because of his personal opinion about the brand of bike.

Anyway, I'm sure that Brompton will make the case for patent infringement against Merc if there really is a case to be made.

I followed the thread on the BromptonTalk YAHOO group. What the difference between the patent and copyright in this case is unclear. How would one exploit the patent without infringing upon the copyright? I wonder whether the Brompton/Scoop ruling is typical in Europe?

I thought of the Windows versus Apple OS infringement case. Apple argued that Windows infringed on its "look and feel" of its OS. It went on for years and the sense that I got from various publications is that Apple was never going to win since "look and feel" is so ambiguous. Of course, the laws in the US, UK, and Continental Europe are all different.

If one could copyright "look and feel" of computer code and other applications, it would seem like a pretty onerous task to produce anything new in the field.

I don’t want to delve too far off course here but there has to be a balance for NOT stifling development and innovation as well as protecting the original designer/developer/artist/author’s works. If you give protection for too long you WILL stifle innovation. That is why I love open source software. There is still money to be made even if the software is free so to speak.

The downside of being first to market something is that sometimes you are too early to market (so to speak). In other words you may have a wonderful idea but the world is not quite ready for your idea even though it makes sense. By the time the world wises up your patent could have expired. Sometimes the timing doesn’t work out but we can’t protect that idea forever…

OK Wav, what if the company making Merc's suddenly started making Swifts, at about 1/2 price .... where would your loyalties be ? ;) Si

Is it odd? Seems like a merchant could get himself in trouble refusing to sell parts to a cash customer just because because of his personal opinion about the brand of bike.
I don't think he'd get in trouble. All he has to argue is that the spokes are not the right size, which EvilV backed up - current B.'s use 13 guage and the Merc uses 14. Plus, if the owner ever thought a customer could/would endanger himself with a product (in this case, it was unknown whether the spokes would fit in the first place, or whether EvilV would have to enlarge the holes to get them to fit thus weakening the rim, for example), he's not obligated to sell.This situation is not the same as racial or socioeconomic discrimination.

The store owner was in a huff about selling the parts pleading ethical this and that and yet sold the spokes. Just goes to show (again) that money speaks louder than ethics.

I'm wondering if it's really an issue of trademark (just to add more fuel to the conflagration). The trademark to a B. IS its unique shape and style. Thus anyone who's co-opting this trademark whether intentionally or unintentionally *may* be impinging on copyright/patent issues. And let's face it: Merc is pretty intentional.

Apple has pretty much won almost all of it's most significant suits involving chassis design and styling, though their software contentions have not been as successful. But no matter, they learned to play MS's game and started buying the companies instead.

I would be surprised if anyone thought that a Merc was not a visual copy of a Brompton (allowing for some minor fuzziness). So if the copyright is simply on the visual appearance of a Brompton then clearly there is an infringement.

There was an interesting post in the aforementioned thread. Apparently, the Scoop/Neobike argument was something along the lines of "any use of the patent would result in the Brompton look." Hence, the copyright does not apply. In response, Brompton simply provided counter-examples during the court case; i.e., how the patents could be used such that the resulting folding bike did not infringe on its copyright. As someone else pointed out, as a consequence, Neobike made the effort to produce a Brompton-esque folder more difficult since Brompton copyrighted those alternative designs.

Now one has to wonder about Merc's strategy. Are they simply trying to sell as many bikes as possible before a court-ruling prohibits them from doing so? Or do they intend to argue that the functional differences between the bikes--aluminum frame, grip shifters, and SA hub--imply that the copyright on a functional device does not apply? Mind you, I don't even know whether this makes any sense in a court of law.

Does this mean, you better hurry up and buy a Merc? Or that you should be cautious of buying a Merc?

I don't think he'd get in trouble. All he has to argue is that the spokes are not the right size, which EvilV backed up - current B.'s use 13 guage and the Merc uses 14. Plus, if the owner ever thought a customer could/would endanger himself with a product (in this case, it was unknown whether the spokes would fit in the first place, or whether EvilV would have to enlarge the holes to get them to fit thus weakening the rim, for example), he's not obligated to sell.This situation is not the same as racial or socioeconomic discrimination.

The store owner was in a huff about selling the parts pleading ethical this and that and yet sold the spokes. Just goes to show (again) that money speaks louder than ethics.

They fitted fine, though I had to screw the threaded portion through the little spoke holes in the hub. After that few millimetres, they just slid in, but I get your point. In this country, I think no trader is obliged to sell to anybody. He can just refuse. He didn't though and I bought ten at a good price. He's a nice guy, actually, keen to be helpful - I had a ride on a Brompton from there and a Dahon from his shop. I have no complaints about him at all, but he did let slip that he could sell every Brompton he could get his hands on, but wouldn't be getting any more for a matter of weeks. I suggested he get onto Merc, but he looked a bit mad at that idea - somewhat offended. Funny, I thought he wanted to sell bikes and couldn't get them....

I think there is a kind of pseudo religious cult operating here with these Brompton fans. It's like it was heresy to sell a copy even though the damned thing's novel features are definately out of patent now. Someone on the Brompton talk forum accused me of being like the people who buy pirate DVDs and pirate software - foolish really, one is a stolen product while the other is reverse engineered. It is EXACTLY what Bill Gates and the early Microsoft Corp did with a previous operating system called CPM. Gates got a deal from IBM to write an operating system for their PCs and he reverse engineered CPM to create DOS. He copied the product making his version do what CPM did without actually copying the code.

I think there is a kind of pseudo religious cult operating here with these Brompton fans.
Yes, there is. ;)

However in terms of your MS example, replicating the function is not the issue, but the design/look is. For example, all folding bikes fold and are ridden as you would any bike - they have the same function. Yet in terms of the case noted above, I'm not sure how Brompton is getting away with winning on design/looks, because if "Hence, the copyright does not apply," then why does it matter that "...the resulting folding bike did not infringe on its copyright"? I thought "copyright" was a moot point?

I agree with a lot of your points, EvilV. Although do you really think Merc reverse engineered the process? Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by reverse engineer.

Intellectual property law contains a lot of tricky and difficult to measure issues. I am curious to see how (and why) these issues get resolved between Merc and Brompton.

EvilV, you probably read the same posting that claimed Brompton and Merc already came to agreement that Merc would cease selling the GT3 once their present stock was gone. But I have not found another reference.

Someone here pointed to a case between Klein and Cannondale with regards to aluminum frames. What I understood from the conversation is that Cannondale in large copied a Klein innovation but simply ommited part of it. I recall that it was a lining inside the aluminum tubes that made it stiffer. Cannondale made a frame that was almost identical except that it made the bottom tube a little thicker. I guess the difference here is that the style and design of bicycles have been around for decades, whereas the Brompton is relatively distinct. So Klein had to sue on the grounds of a patent instead of a copyright.

Many know about the supposed agreement between Brompton and Merc. What is confusing is why then a 6 speed (or 8 speed?) is *allegedly* in the works. Wav's 6 speed is/was supposed to be a prototype for a new Merc coming out, and I'll admit I was skeptical he'd even get it because of said agreement, for the bike sounded like an active prototype and not old stock. However, Wav did get it, so one has to wonder what kind of agreement Merc had with Brompton to begin with if, indeed, they ever had any.

If the 6 speed is indeed an old prototype and cosidered old stock, then I'd say Wav has a collector's item on his hands and should not sell it for less than double its price. Maybe he can try selling it to Brompton? :D

Many know about the supposed agreement between Brompton and Merc. What is confusing is why then a 6 speed (or 8 speed?) is *allegedly* in the works. Wav's 6 speed is/was supposed to be a prototype for a new Merc coming out, and I'll admit I was skeptical he'd even get it because of said agreement, for the bike sounded like an active prototype and not old stock. However, Wav did get it, so one has to wonder what kind of agreement Merc had with Brompton to begin with if, indeed, they ever had any.

If the 6 speed is indeed an old prototype and cosidered old stock, then I'd say Wav has a collector's item on his hands and should not sell it for less than double its price. Maybe he can try selling it to Brompton? :D

LOL - that's funny.

My problem with all these posts about what Merc have maybe agreed with Brompton is that we don't know if they are true. Rumours abound on forums, somebody hears something in a bike shop and repeats it elsewhere - etc - etc.

Invisiblehand is right about my reverse engineering point - it doesn't work, does it, because the style of the bike was copied, not just the function. I withdraw the point.

I think the idea of copyrighting style like this can't be allowed to stand, or innovation will be completely stopped. Did the first maker of V brakes, or cantilevers, or any of the other new styles of brake mean that we can only buy them from one manufacturer at whatever inflated price they dictate, and that we must tolerate long delivery times?

The Brompton price and supply problem is ludicrous. If I want one around here today, I'll not get it until at least Mid August - that's what was implied by the guy at the shop we discussed the other day. It's a little bike for God's sake, not some sacred object invested with magic powers distilled from a special manufacturer. Some people are nuts...

I think the idea of copyrighting style like this can't be allowed to stand, or innovation will be completely stopped. Did the first maker of V brakes, or cantilevers, or any of the other new styles of brake mean that we can only buy them from one manufacturer at whatever inflated price they dictate, and that we must tolerate long delivery times?

The Brompton price and supply problem is ludicrous. If I want one around here today, I'll not get it until at least Mid August - that's what was implied by the guy at the shop we discussed the other day. It's a little bike for God's sake, not some sacred object invested with magic powers distilled from a special manufacturer. Some people are nuts...

These are some of the same point I made earlier. To stifle innovation is a very bad thing. You must find a balance with protecting rights. Brompton has basically had this nice to themselves for about 20 years. In reality there are only so many ways you can arrange 2 wheels, bars, pedals and seats.

Why is Brompton is still Number 1 when it comes to those special way of super compact folding bikes? Perhaps the secret is simply the extreme quality contol that is exercise at the factory. For example, my mother just purchased 2 DVD players. One she immediately had to take back to the store because it had a loud noise coming out of it. The other was fine. They were both made in the far east. I heard the same story told on this and other forums when it comes to bikes. I not saying that all bikes manufactered at Brompton is 100% perfect at the end of the assembly line. But alot of nonbiking people noticed the fine workmanship that went into my bike that is lacking in my Dahon (made in China). And I only have the simple "C" model. Unless Merc does not adopt the hit and miss approuch to get their bikes to their customers, I will stay with something I miss very much and find lacking in my day to day purchases and use of them-pride of craftsmanship (which my mechanical engineer little sister says is lacking even in the US space programs).

These are some of the same point I made earlier. To stifle innovation is a very bad thing. You must find a balance with protecting rights. Brompton has basically had this nice to themselves for about 20 years. In reality there are only so many ways you can arrange 2 wheels, bars, pedals and seats.

So what's so innovative about taking a PC & swapping out a graphics card, the ram, harddrive, etc, etc....???? the Inovation is in the manufacturers making the individual parts not the guy that's doing the swapping in & out. By the same token, please explain to me why Merc is so innovative. They didn't invent anything, they're just using someone elses' & I mean a lot of everyone elses' ideas. And they're possibly doing this without royalties. That's essentially what Merc is doing here with the Brompton clone.

As far as patents & copying ideas, IMO, it's ok to be inspired by a design that's not yours, but wrong to copy it entirely unless there are royalties involved. If it this is not the case, then what stops GM or Ford from copying or what EvilV calls "reverse engineering" a Mercedes Benz & selling it a half price because they wouldn't have any developmental cost. It just won't happen.

I forget how the PC analogy got into the thread, but sometimes the innovation is not what is produced but how it is produced. I am thinking of Dell as an example. Similarly one could think of something along the lines of customer service or delivery. (Is Domino's 30-minute guarantee pizza delivery an innovation? Maybe ...)

From a global perspective, I would not consider Merc innovative. But people have used that adjective for companies that provided a product that accomplished some task at a cheaper price than competitors. If Merc packages several different products into a single item like Waveshrdr's GT6, strictly defined, I would say that it is an innovation. Albeit a minor one.

From what I gather, it appears to me that the copyright issue is not ridiculous. That is, if it is possible to obtain the same functionality of a Brompton folder without infringing on its look, then enforcing its copyright is reasonable. Mind you, I am assuming that Brompton demonstrated this during a court battle with Scoop/Neobike. The acceptable amount of visual similarity would depend on how much functionality drives the appearance.

Using automobiles as an example, from the perspective of a non-engineer, I would say that Ford and GM do copy Mercedes-Benz qualities. However, the appearance of the car is not as closely associated with its functionality as with the Brompton folder. Note that there are some similarities among family sedans, for example, that are driven by aerodynamics, optimal width for handling given the size of US roads, having four doors, and so on. Similarities driven by those characteristics are not subject to copyright protection. However, if Ford produced an exact replica of a 2003 Mercedes, my guess is that copyright infringement would occur since the non-patent protected qualities of the Mercedes can be exploited without the exact appearance of the Mercedes.

Ethically and legally, Merc has every right to exploit the functionality of the patents after they expire. Society owns the rights to the innovation. Brompton had its period from which it could reap the rewards of monopoly on that innovation. However, it is unethical and illegal to exploit the look and design of the Brompton independent of that innovation (for another 50 or so years).

Because Mercedes' are ugly, and they already ARE the Fords and GMs of Germany. :D

... and they already ARE the Fords and GMs of Germany. :D


And I thought Renault & Peugots had that title....Mercedes would have to be the Chryslers....then again, they already are....:lol:

Strangely, copying seems to be perfectly allowed for aftermarket spares. When my car brake pads or exhaust wear out, I can buy the manufacturers originals, or I can buy copies made by big spares manufacturers, and perfectly legally. These are EXACT copies in every dimension (certainly the brake parts have to be to fit).

The idea that nobody but Brompton can make a small wheeled folder with a curved main beam, and that they can charge what they like for the product for the next fisty years is a joke. 'The Law is an ass,' as the man said long ago.

Strangely, copying seems to be perfectly allowed for aftermarket spares. When my car brake pads or exhaust wear out, I can buy the manufacturers originals, or I can buy copies made by big spares manufacturers, and perfectly legally. These are EXACT copies in every dimension (certainly the brake parts have to be to fit).

I would have to guess that it's because sales of brake pads are not predicated as much on their shape and look but more upon the composition and functionality of the component itself.

----- Original Message -----
From: NoRMaN PHaY
To: BromptonTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: [BromptonTalk] Aargh @ "merc"

I saw an example of the "merc" brompton copy for the first time today
- a guy brought his into the shop because it had broken a spoke.
Unbelievable. Several of the parts, incl the rear chain tansioner
looked like they'd just taken a bromptom to bits and made moulds from
its components. I found myself feeling angry with the person who
bought it, and with the people who import it. Guy even had the cheek
to suggest I carry them in stock! Urgh at ethically twisted business
people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it odd that he still sold the spoke(s)?
Ethics indeed. :rolleyes:


I'm not quite sure what the point of your copying my post from another forum over here is, but I have no doubt that if I'd refused to sell Tony the spokes you'd be snarky about that as well, maybe even snarkier.

I don't have any particular problem with Tony, he paid his money and made his choice. If he's happy with what he's bought, good for him. I was, and am disgusted with the product itself - a direct copy in every way that I could see of a highly distinctive product, even down to many of the special moulded plastic parts - the rear swing arm and the bag bracket for example - appearing to be identical to the point where one could reasonably speculate that they'd been moulded from the originals. I told Tony that when he was in my shop. It was, I guess, interesting to see one in the flesh, so to speak.

I think that to speak of "innovation" when comparing these 2 products is a gigantic red herring. If you look at a Bromton from today, compared with one from when we started selling them, 10yrs ago - better frame and handlebar stem hinges, better front hub, better dynamo, better handlebars, better brakes, better tyres, better wheel rims etc etc etc. If you were to put and old and a new machine together, I wouldn't be surprised if you could list 100 or more improvements to the design, made over the years. This is real Innovation. You could say the same thing of several of Brompton's competitors in the folding bike market - Riese und Muller, Dahon, Bike Friday, Airframe. Companies whose products have been consistently and constantly improved in quality and function over the years. This compared to what?

Given the build quality of the machine - comparable to anything on the market today, and the company's exemplary treatment of (rare) warranty complaints, I don't think they're expensive, personally. The only other machine I get through that is ready to ride from the box is the Challege recumbent - a handbuilt machine costing over 1100 UK pounds. But, then I would say that wouldn't I.

Best wishes.