Sorry, but the UCS conclusion that motorcycles are worse for the environment are based on actual passenger miles. Cars carry 1.9 passengers, motorcycles carry like 1.01 passengers. Also, motorcycles are allowed to emit more pollutants. Also, motorcycles are built with proportionately more steel and rubber, so they pollute more when constructed. They didn't even mention the noise issue, which is pretty salient for me. Overall, I find cars and motorcycles to be almost equally distasteful and toxic.

As to which is more fun, that's a matter of personal preference. Almost every one here thinks bicycles are more fun than either.




People also say that the average american family has 2.5 children. Have you ever seen 1/2 a child. When I ride in a car I am either by myself, or I'm with a person. ONE OR TWO occupants. I have never, ever shared a vehicle with 9/10ths of a person. We understand the statistics and how they were averaged out. Think outside the box for a second... If their is just ONE SINGLE PERSON trying to go somewhere, how is it more effiecent for them to use a 2,000 pound vehicle as opposed to a 300 pound one?

If you can find 9/10ths of a person to travel with me everywhere I go.... But I have not seen that yet.
I agree 100% with Jeff-o. Just like he said, it depends on where you are travelling and how many people are going with you.

If their is just ONE SINGLE PERSON trying to go somewhere, how is it more effiecent for them to use a 2,000 pound vehicle as opposed to a 300 pound one?

All things being equal, sure it's more efficient to use the smaller vehicle. But all things aren't equal... The large majority of small (~300lb) single passenger vehicles (all if you look at new vehicles) are motorcycles, which, due to their open design, exhibit a very high coefficient of drag and relatively low engine efficiency. The coefficient of drag is so high that their hwy mileage is only .2 better than a twenty year old vehicle that's more than 6 times heavier and has ~4 times more frontal area (FA). They're in fact, less efficient than similarly sized (FA ~20 square feet) new hybrids and light diesels (namely the Honda Insight and Volkswagen 3L Lupo). What this means is that in general, a new, efficient, motorcycle, is 2-4 times worse at moving through the air than a car, and the cars engine is ~1.5-3 times more efficient. So, all told, some cars can carry four people and still get better mileage than a motorcycle. Just to give you an idea of how much coefficient of drag effects things, the prius is about the same size as the corolla, same engine, etc... but it gets ~50mpg highway while the corolla only gets ~40mpg. Why? because the prius has a Cx of ~.25, while the corolla is in the low .3's. Cutting the Cx of a vehicle in half usually raises the efficiency by ~60-80%. Because it's easier to cut the Cx of inefficient vehicles, a ~20 year old volkswagen diesel, or just about any motorcycle could see thei mileage jump into the ~75-130mpg range with the addition of properly designed fairings.

I was given a car - free in the early 1980s. It was fast and very very scary

http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/1046/fairlane15ry.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I give up. you are not worth my time because logic escapes you. Go do me a favor and choke on some granola.

Lye, when you talk about high drag you are talking about cruisers. Get a clue. sportbikes can also carry more speed into a corner, so on a twisty road (my preference) they are much more efficient than a car because you eliminate some of the stop/turn/go cycle.

Lye, when you talk about high drag you are talking about cruisers. Get a clue. sportbikes can also carry more speed into a corner, so on a twisty road (my preference) they are much more efficient than a car because you eliminate some of the stop/turn/go cycle.

Do you bothering with reading before you respond, or does it just fly out when you see a post?

The coefficient of drag is so high that their hwy mileage is only .2 better than a twenty year old vehicle that's more than 6 times heavier and has ~4 times more frontal area (FA).

I was talking about highway, there is no stop/turn/go cycle (unless you're on the 101), you just drive. Besides, even in city conditions, an Insight or vw 3L vehicle will still get better mileage than you can. I said it once, and I'll say it again, it's just physics, regardless of how much speed you can carry into a corner. Which is fine if that's your thing, but the majority of roads aren't twisty, curvey, canyon runs and your bike (or any bike) isn't efficient. It has a high Cx and craptacular engine efficiency, this means it moves through the air like a brick... an inefficient brick at that. That's it, there's no more to it. Like you said, get a clue. :bday:

Here you go, drag coefficients of most vehicles on the road:

http://bgsoflex.com/airdragchart.html

Sedans are at 0.34, motorcycles at 0.5. Drag coefficient is calculated based on frontal area, so a motorcycle WILL have more drag than a car. However, there is only a big difference at highway speeds, since the energy required to move forward is a square function, not a linear one. At city speeds, a motorcycle may indeed get better milage than a car, but not on the highway.

I think there's a lot of room for improvement left in motorcycle engines, in terms of efficiency. If the same technology used to improve car engines were used in motorcycles, I'm sure they could buzz around with ratings above 80mpg. This tech costs money though, and since the manufacturers aren't being forced to improve efficiency, they aren't doing it.

For me, it's all about minimalism. Ride the smallest vehicle that will transport you and your cargo in a reasonable amount of time.

The ultimate in minimalism when it comes to a single person is a pair of walking shoes, but it takes a lot of time and cargo space is very limited.

The next step up is a bicycle. Five to six times faster than walking, slightly expanded cargo space.

After that, electric motor-assist bicycles and scooters, which have the same cargo space as a regular bike, but higher speed.

Gas powered bikes, scooters, mopeds and motorcycles further improve on speed and distance over an assisted bike. It is also possible to transport a second passenger.

Small, fuel-efficient cars come next. Maximum distance, speed and cargo capacity are greatly increased. So is passenger capacity, up to 5 now.

Larger cars, vans and trucks come afterwards.

So, what's my point? Well, we should choose the vehicle that suits our needs. A trip to the <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.qklinkserver.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=92&k=post%20office&st=1" onmouseover="window.status='Search for: post office'; self.ql_skeyphrase='post%20office'; if(window.event) self.ql_sevent=window.event.srcElement; self.ql_timeout = setTimeout('ql_doMouseOver(1)', 1000); self.ql_isOverLink=true; return true;" onclick="if(self.ql_timeout) clearTimeout(self.ql_timeout); self.ql_isOverTip = false; ql_closeiframe(); self.ql_skeyphrase='post%20office'; window.status='Search for: post office';return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; if(self.ql_timeout) clearTimeout(self.ql_timeout); self.ql_isOverTip = false; setTimeout('ql_closeiframe()', 1500); ">post office</a> to pick up stamps should not require anything more than a bicycle. A trip across town to visit relatives should require no more than a motorcycle or scooter. A trip to Best Buy to get a new TV should require no more than a small car. A trip to the <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.qklinkserver.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=92&k=home%20renovation&st=1" onmouseover="window.status='Search for: home renovation'; self.ql_skeyphrase='home%20renovation'; if(window.event) self.ql_sevent=window.event.srcElement; self.ql_timeout = setTimeout('ql_doMouseOver(1)', 1000); self.ql_isOverLink=true; return true;" onclick="if(self.ql_timeout) clearTimeout(self.ql_timeout); self.ql_isOverTip = false; ql_closeiframe(); self.ql_skeyphrase='home%20renovation'; window.status='Search for: home renovation';return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; if(self.ql_timeout) clearTimeout(self.ql_timeout); self.ql_isOverTip = false; setTimeout('ql_closeiframe()', 1500); ">home renovation</a> store to pick up a ton of topsoil should require no more than a <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.qklinkserver.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=92&k=pickup%20truck&st=1" onmouseover="window.status='Search for: pickup truck'; self.ql_skeyphrase='pickup%20truck'; if(window.event) self.ql_sevent=window.event.srcElement; self.ql_timeout = setTimeout('ql_doMouseOver(1)', 1000); self.ql_isOverLink=true; return true;" onclick="if(self.ql_timeout) clearTimeout(self.ql_timeout); self.ql_isOverTip = false; ql_closeiframe(); self.ql_skeyphrase='pickup%20truck'; window.status='Search for: pickup truck';return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; if(self.ql_timeout) clearTimeout(self.ql_timeout); self.ql_isOverTip = false; setTimeout('ql_closeiframe()', 1500); ">pickup truck</a>.

I agree, that with adequate time and equipment, it is possible to pick up that ton of dirt on a bike. However the time, safety and fitness this would require is prohibitive to most people.

Ideally, I would like to have three vehicles in my garage: A bike (or five), a scooter or motorcycle, and a small car. These vehicles are enough for both me and my wife. I think this is a good combination for most people, and many can even ditch the car. The key here is that with this set of vehicles, the owners must not wuss out and take the car every time. I suppose it's almost human nature to do what is easiest, unless there are consequences. High gas prices may limit car use, but I'm not sure what else will...

Your points are very thoughtful and reaonable; bravo! I was especially struck by your point about not wussing out and taking the car every time. I went with no car for a year, and then bought a car, "for special circumstances." Within a month, I was using the car every day to get to my job three miles away, and even to go get coffee ten blocks away! Disgusted with my weakness, and positively freaked out about CO2 emissions, I recently got rid of the car again, and am much happier now. Perhaps I'm simply weaker than most people, but, in my opinion, if you live in an urban area, and don't have a major disability, you don't need a car at all.

Many motorcycles are capable of around 50mpg, most riders on sport cycles get about 25mpg, no one accellerates gently.
Al

Many motorcycles are capable of around 50mpg, most riders on sport cycles get about 25mpg, no one accellerates gently.
Al
If I am putting around town on a low speed limit road, sometimes I can hold myself back and ride it like a scooter :). The problem is that by bike just begs me to make it scream. I can almost hear Ryuu telling me more, more, more!

Do you bothering with reading before you respond, or does it just fly out when you see a post?
You ever driven in the mountains? You had to brake before entering a turn, and hit the gas on the way out? Unless you have a sportbike, Miata or european sportscar you don't realize just how much speed can be carried through a turn when executed properly with the right suspension setup. It makes a difference in how much gas you use. heck, most races are won in the corners because carrying as much speed as possible through is more efficient.

Plus I just love a fast corner. I have a bad feeling that I'm gonna be a track addict.

I think there's a lot of room for improvement left in motorcycle engines, in terms of efficiency.


And you've hit the nail on the proverbial head.

10 years ago I started working on this very concept. I developed a Harley based motor that makes 140hp and gets 50+ mpg when ridden within the confines of the law and good sense. It also pollutes less than it did, although it still pollutes about the same as many cars.

FWIW.

The reason most sportbikes don't get very good mileage is because;

a: No one cares. (Welll, maybe they're starting to, but it's a new thing for sure)

2. They're marketed to folks who are racer wanna-bes. Just like the carbon fiber race bike craze with bicycles.

Az

And argue all you want, there is no machine made that's more efficient than a bicycle. The gas mileage is simply incredible. But it is interesting that, according to all scientific evidence I've seen recently, motorcycles do not appear to be the solution that I once assumed they were.