Road Bike Racing - 25 mph TT - is it easy or hard?

.....i've read and heard people say both ways. i've gotta vote for hard. i just can't seem to get there, no matter what i do. i'm getting pretty fed up with it. SO.....let me know what you think, what kind of times you turn, and how hard you work to make it happen.

Takes about 2-3 years of training to average 25mph on a TT of 10-miles (24 minutes). Requires LOTS of interval training at above 25mph... :) The actual amount of time it takes, 2-3 years is "easy".

But try interval training at 28-32mph to max-HR, 2-3x a week, 5-10 intervals a day with your legs burning red-hot in searing pain from lactic acid, cramping and locking up at the end of the intervals, your heart beating so fast it makes you dizzy & lungs coughing up blood... Spasms and spontaneous cramps in the middle of the night waking you up in screaming agony with your ankles next to your ears... Having the discipline and mental toughness to do that kind of training... yeah, that's "hard".

We should take a poll, I bet less than 1% of the people here can do 25mph in a 10-mile TT... :)

I'm sure DrW. will step in soon. I think he does a 27 mph TT!

i can only do 20-21 mph over 20 miles. 25 is beyond my reach at this point ...

I did about 24mph not on my best day. Was it hard? Not really. I just did a 1 hour and 25 minutes sub-threshold work. About 89% of my LT power. What makes it hard is that you are strapped in an aero position for an hour. Parts of your body will begin to get sored. After the TT, you could barely walk. Beside that you must have the ability to sustain your LT power or power at LTHR for 1 hour, you must know how to pace yourself.


.....i've read and heard people say both ways. i've gotta vote for hard. i just can't seem to get there, no matter what i do. i'm getting pretty fed up with it. SO.....let me know what you think, what kind of times you turn, and how hard you work to make it happen.

Snick, my last ten miler was 20:30. Not quite 30mph. I have another next week and then one more the week following. I plan to go above 30 on one of them at least. Next year, I am hoping to have my 40k time down a few minutes and approaching 50 minutes and change. I am one of the lucky ones. I TT quite well.

As for breaking 25, if you have not yet done it, yes it will be hard. I believe it was LeMond who said, "It doesn't get any easier. You just get faster." It will be hard, but it is not impossible. Once you do it, you will set a goal of 26, 27 or 28. Your goals should be hard. Barring some physical difficulty, you will be able to achieve your goal. Stick with it.

Is not interval training. You need a monster huge base miles during the Winter to develop the necessary aerobic capacity to sustain your power output at LT for 1 hour. You need tons of threshold power work at 2x20, 2x30, 1 hour, or more. Interval work above your LT power is good for increasing your vo2max power. TT isn't about riding at your VO2 max power for 1 hour. Is about sustain your power output at LT for 1 hour. You may hit your vo2max power climbing up a roller or a hill. That usually lasts about 1 to 5 minutes. The trick here is that for pacing in a TT you are riding at LT power and not have your power dropped because of fatigue. You will be surprised how easily your power output can drop at the last 15 minutes of your 1 hour TT.


Takes about 2-3 years of training to average 25mph on a TT of 10-miles (24 minutes). Requires LOTS of interval training at above 25mph... :) The actual amount of time it takes, 2-3 years is "easy".

But try interval training at 28-32mph to max-HR, 2-3x a week, 5-10 intervals a day with your legs burning red-hot in searing pain from lactic acid, cramping and locking up at the end of the intervals, your heart beating so fast it makes you dizzy & lungs coughing up blood... Spasms and spontaneous cramps in the middle of the night waking you up in screaming agony with your ankles next to your ears... Having the discipline and mental toughness to do that kind of training... yeah, that's "hard".

We should take a poll, I bet less than 1% of the people here can do 25mph in a 10-mile TT... :)

One of my Pro 1/2 friends did a sub 20 minute 10mile TT earlier this year ON A FIXED GEAR. Set a course record. He's insane. He also went on a 70mile breakaway at the Mt Hood Cycling classic. He's also one of the nicest people I know. I've never EVER seen him mad.

Snick, my last ten miler was 20:30. Not quite 30mph. I have another next week and then one more the week following. I plan to go above 30 on one of them at least. Next year, I am hoping to have my 40k time down a few minutes and approaching 50 minutes and change. I am one of the lucky ones. I TT quite well.

As for breaking 25, if you have not yet done it, yes it will be hard. I believe it was LeMond who said, "It doesn't get any easier. You just get faster." It will be hard, but it is not impossible. Once you do it, you will set a goal of 26, 27 or 28. Your goals should be hard. Barring some physical difficulty, you will be able to achieve your goal. Stick with it.

we make our own luck. luck is the residue of design. i'd rather be lucky than good. so, DrW, how do you get so fast? what kind of workouts do you do? what is your position on the bike like?

Last year in the State TT I did 40k in a little over 58 min. After I crossed the line I thought I was going to puke. I have never felt so spent in my life. In otherwords it was hard.

25mph for an hour is a benchmark. It's not going to win many TT's but it definitely not easy. If you can do a sub hour 40k you're a bike racer.

While we're talking times and speeds...

Are we talking like an actual TT, with aero bars, and proper setup, aero helmet and deep dish wheels?

Or are we talking about standard road setup, in the drops, as part of a workout, etc?

The original question also fails to state a distance over which this speed should be maintained. What is it?
Pretty sure my mother could get out and ride a mile at 25mph.

These things need to be specified.

While we're talking times and speeds...

Are we talking like an actual TT, with aero bars, and proper setup, aero helmet and deep dish wheels?

Or are we talking about standard road setup, in the drops, as part of a workout, etc?

The original question also fails to state a distance over which this speed should be maintained. What is it?
Pretty sure my mother could get out and ride a mile at 25mph.

These things need to be specified.

that's a fair shot. i'm talking a 25 mile TT with full aero setup

You have a strong mother. One mile at twenty five miles an hour is about 2 minutes and 24 seconds of impossible hell for someone who has not trained! I do agree that there were no specifications, but the standard benchmark TT is the 40k, so I am guessing that is what was being talked about. Still, 10k or 80k, a time trial of 25mph or higher is not easy.

As to how I get so fast? I spend a lot of time not being fast. Though there are a lot of things I do not agree with him on, R600 is correct in writing of base miles. In addition, elevating your lactate threshold (many ways to do this) is beneficial. Aerodynamics is of utmost importance, particularly over 22mph. Most people can take a cut in power output and still become faster due to improved aero position. Pain tolerance is important too. I would lie if I said that it does not hurt, but I know that I don't hurt nearly as bad as most people, because when I TT, I end up trancelike. Not to get too voodoo on people, but I have worked on my breathing and focus on that, HR, and cadence. Occasionally I can actually form a thought which invariably is "Oh, can I go faster??" Other than that it is just going to a place most people fear.

I am sure genetics also play a role as my 5 minute power output and my hour power output are not much different. As a sprinter, I am useless. I win my races by beating the sprinters into submission before I get to the line. Needless to say, I don't win all of my races.

How to get fast? Have a training plan, stick to it and you will achieve your goals. Even if you can only train 3 hours a week, you can get where you want to be.

One other thing. Learn to relax in your TT setup. Other than some sore neck muscles getting used to looking up for so long, TTing should NOT be painful or cramping in any other way. R600 speaks of difficulty with an hour in the TT setup. That shows me either very little training in the position, or a very poor setup. I ride Tempo or even recovery on my TT bike for 2-3 hours sometimes.

Yeah, I don't have a dedicated TT machine. In fact, I don't bother to change my road setup at all other than putting on a pair of TT bar and a 60mm HED Stinger front wheel. Even that, my position wasn't that aero until I switched to a longer 270mm TT bar on a 110mm stem. Still, sitting on the nose of my SLR saddle for an hour can be painful. :) I will get used to it soon.


One other thing. Learn to relax in your TT setup. Other than some sore neck muscles getting used to looking up for so long, TTing should NOT be painful or cramping in any other way. R600 speaks of difficulty with an hour in the TT setup. That shows me either very little training in the position, or a very poor setup. I ride Tempo or even recovery on my TT bike for 2-3 hours sometimes.

Just out of curiosity, how many think an indoor trainer contributed to their ability to TT at 25mph and how many feel that all they needed was the time to ride on the road.....?

One other thing. Learn to relax in your TT setup. Other than some sore neck muscles getting used to looking up for so long, TTing should NOT be painful or cramping in any other way. R600 speaks of difficulty with an hour in the TT setup. That shows me either very little training in the position, or a very poor setup. I ride Tempo or even recovery on my TT bike for 2-3 hours sometimes.

i'm comfortable on the bike. i've ridden half-ironmans as the biking member of a team with no problems.

I don't want to stir anything up...but...

Just anecdotal evidence here, but on the last TT results I saw for a flat course (13 miles, perfectly flat) - the SLOWEST guy in the CAT4s turned out just a hair over 25mph, with the CAT4 winner racking up 29mph average. The P1/2 guys were almost to a man doing over 30mph.

Personally, in order to get the most wattage during my workouts or breaks, I move forward on the saddle into a position you see Pro's adapt when doing TT's. Point of the saddle in my taint. It's not painful as I'm used to it, but obviously not the most comfortable position. However, it's bearable, and worth doing. For some people, being 1) comfortable, 2) aero, 3) powerful and 4) legal is just not possible.

Due to the small size of my frame, I have a very hard time getting far enough forward to produce the power I want and still maintain typical long ride comfort AND follow the 5cm rule. However, any discomfort I may be in is always muted by the fact that my legs are about to explode.

Being fast in a time trial is about two things: functional threshold power (i.e. how much power you can sustain evenly for the duration of the event) and aerodynamics. They are both important and they both require training.

Case in point: I have a PowerTap SL power meter and have measured my 10-mile power at 305 watts average and I weigh 163 pounds. I have a road bike, regular wheels, clip-on aero bars, and a frame that is a bit too big for me (meaning that I can't get low enough). My 10-mile TT time (only tried it once so far) on a flat, almost windless oval course was 24:17--just a hair under 25mph.

However, I know of several individuals who have a 10-mile power of "only" 270 watts but due to aerodynamics and equipment have completed a similar course in 21:30. I'd be really curious to know what DrWJODonnell's 20-minute power numbers are.

Bottom line: you need to work on FTP and aerodynamics. Both.

--Steve

None of the TTs where I live are flat. My club TTs sure aren't they are 8.2 miles. I can do 20+ avg. on a road bike. BUT 25 would take a lot more training I think. I got a TT bike recently, so we'll see how much difference that makes. BUt yea...I would say 25 mph avg. would be fairly hard depending on the course/terrain.

None of the TTs where I live are flat.

Yeah, that's a good point. Not all courses are created equal. The fastest I've ever done the 20-ish mile loop near my house is 21 mph. It's got lots of rollers and stop lights ;)

--Steve

My 20 minute power is in the realm of 340 watts +/- 15 depending on the day and importance of the race. These are race based numbers and not due to formal testing. I will let you know with more certainty this off season.

Snuff, you are making me feel bad. I have been close to breaking 30 but have not quite yet done it. You have either some REALLY strong riders there or perhaps a tailwind on a one way course?? :) just me pouting. I will try to break 30 as the southern pro/1/2 riders did to a man. :)

Snuff, you are making me feel bad. I have been close to breaking 30 but have not quite yet done it. You have either some REALLY strong riders there or perhaps a tailwind on a one way course?? :) just me pouting. I will try to break 30 as the southern pro/1/2 riders did to a man. :)

I didn't do the TT, and was a bit suprised by the speeds as well...but it is what it is. A CAT4 team mate of mine averaged 28.04 (I think...) for the course.

Best Ive ever done was 26.74 miles in one hour on a track on a fixed gear with just drop bars. This is after 3 years of messenger work and about 45,000 miles of year round riding, some of it tempo work in addition to my job just to get faster for the event. Yes it does take a fair amount of work, but once youve got the base and spent a few years riding w/o an off season it really isnt all that tough provided you have an average genetics AND your the proper size. Really small people and really big people are often out of luck, just the way it is. My 1hr power threshold last I checked was about 345 watts, and thats down a bit from last TT I did. That took 3 long hard years of riding just to get that far, and fighting the tendencies my job does to my body. One thing I do know, I will never ever let myself slip into my pre-riding condition ever again, or I will give up riding period. I dont know how you part timers do it. I suffered thru 9 months of jello legs, leg cramps, and general pain just getting into basic bike shape, screw that, never again.

I didn't do the TT, and was a bit suprised by the speeds as well...

I'm surprised as well. I regularly check the results for the Carolina Cycling 10-mile Time Trials held at Lowes Motor Speedway and there's typically only a couple of people out of 300+ participants who break the 30mph mark.

--Steve

Is not interval training. You need a monster huge base miles during the Winter to develop the necessary aerobic capacity to sustain your power output at LT for 1 hour. You need tons of threshold power work at 2x20, 2x30, 1 hour, or more. Interval work above your LT power is good for increasing your vo2max power. TT isn't about riding at your VO2 max power for 1 hour. Is about sustain your power output at LT for 1 hour. You may hit your vo2max power climbing up a roller or a hill. That usually lasts about 1 to 5 minutes. The trick here is that for pacing in a TT you are riding at LT power and not have your power dropped because of fatigue. You will be surprised how easily your power output can drop at the last 15 minutes of your 1 hour TT.Well, it depends upon what a particular rider's weakness is in getting to 25mph average. I bet for the majority of people below 25mph ave., they aren't even riding at their VO2-max. Instead, they're limited by power-output at LT; they're pushing as hard as they can right at their muscle's lactate-threshold. Which you really don't want to be riding at anyway since it's so inefficient in terms of oxygen-used for the power-output. Stronger muscles are more efficient and consume less oxygen for the power-output at 25mph. I'd say you'd want to be riding at your VO2-max, generating about 275-300watts using only 80% of your muscle's LT. Intervals are the fastest way to increase power-output at LT.

I did our recent 40k at 27.0, and have been a shade over 28 MPH on a 7 miler with a short climb and swirling winds. None of them were easy, they all hurt, and I always want to quit after 5 minutes.

Training, of course, is very important, but you also have to learn how to meter your effort and stay focused throughout the TT. Powermeters are the best way to do this, HR monitiors help as long as you keep in mind that there's a lag between effort and HR. There are certainly racers that can go out and do excellent TT's without any of the tools, but for many people they are a big help.

Doc, that's very impressive. If you have some extra watts laying around, I'd be happy to have them. Could have used 20 or so this weekend...

I'd say you'd want to be riding at your VO2-max, generating about 275-300watts using only 80% of your muscle's LT. Intervals are the fastest way to increase power-output at LT.

Since VO2Max power is higher than LT power, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

--Steve

Originally Posted by Mothra: I'd say you'd want to be riding at your VO2-max, generating about 275-300watts using only 80% of your muscle's LT. Intervals are the fastest way to increase power-output at LT.


Since VO2Max power is higher than LT power, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

--Steve

Neither does Mothra.

Since VO2Max power is higher than LT power, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.One doesn't have to be higher than the other, with gearing and training, you can match them up closer to extract optimum performance.

VO2-max is ONLY a measurement of aerobic capacity, measured either as an absolute or relative value of liters per minute (L/min) or millilitres per kg bodyweight per minute (ml/kg/min) that your heart & lungs can deliver to the muscles. Maximal Oxygen Consumption- The VO2max (http://home.hia.no/~stephens/vo2max.htm) Note that VO2-max has no power measurement involved; it's purely an aerobic function.

Now, what you can do with that oxygen to generate power is variable, it depends upon your muscle's efficiency and gearing. The tachometer for your muscle is then LT-lactate threshold (the transition point between aerobic and anaerobic function) is directly related to how much force they exert. If you've done any weight-lifting, you'll know that the higher the force you make them exert (higher weights), the quicker they'll reach LT with fewer reps. On the bike, the higher you operate the muscles close to their LT, the less efficient they become and oxgen-consumption for the power-output goes up. This is where gearing comes into play.

So if you're pushing your muscles with 95-lbs force on each of the pedals right at LT, you may pick a variety of gears for the same speed:

1. If you use 90-rpms, you may get one power-output, but it's sub-optimal because you're only at 160-170bpm, below your VO2-max. You've maxed out the muscles, but still have oxygen-delivery capacity left. It's like finishing a car-race with 1/2 a tank of gas left, you could've gone faster by not carrying an extra 1/4 tank.

2. If you use 95-rpms with the same pedal force of 95-lbs, you may be getting a little more power and use more oxygen at 165-175bpm. This uses more of your VO2-max and lets you generate more power. It's balancing your muscles vs. your heart/lungs better.

3. However, if you use 100rpms and back off on the leg-effort a tiny-bit to 90lbs on the pedals, you may generate even more power than #1, but tax the muscles less because you're not pushing them as hard. At this point, you may be pushing 175-180bpm and maximizing oxygen-delivery at VO2-max. With the muscles working at sub-maximum effort, yet heart/lungs at full-capacity, you can make the most power possible, AND go a long distance of 40k without fatiguing the muscles halfway through. This is the pacing and experience that some of the previous posters talked about.

Remember that VO2-max and LT-lactate threshold are two completely different effects. One is a measurement of heart & lungs and one is an indicator for the muscle's activity. With training, you'll notice that VO2-max can be increased, but only a small amount relative to the increase in power generated at LT. The trick then to balance these two factors in a way that gets you maximum-speed and duration.

Note that VO2-max has no power measurement involved; .

Although technically correct you can, attach power ranges to Vo2max. Like HR zones you can attach power zones to your aerobic and anaerobic zones. By doing this you'll see that your Vo2max power zone is higher than your LT power zone.


Here are both my HR and power zones in ascending order
Active Recovery
Endurance
Tempo
Threshold
VO2max
Anaerobic Capacity

Note that VO2-max has no power measurement involved; it's purely an aerobic function.


You cannot measure VO2max without creating a condition that maximally stresses the blood delivery capacity of the heart. On a bicycle or a treadmill, it's very easy to measure the power output of the athlete at that maximum capacity level. That wattage is called VO2Max Power. It's *always* at least fractionally higher than the amount of power of power one can generate at or below his or her lactate threshold. LT power is a measurable fraction of VO2Max power. In my case, it's currently 79.5% at the 4 mmole inflection point.

That said, you are correct when you point out that one can typically improve LT power to a much greater degree than his or her VO2Max power. Some athletes are able to raise their LT power to as high as 95% of their V02Max power. But never higher than 100%.

--Steve

That said, you are correct when you point out that one can typically improve LT power to a much greater degree than his or her VO2Max power.Yup, that's why the original suggestion on doing intervals.


Some athletes are able to raise their LT power to as high as 95% of their V02Max power. But never higher than 100%.That's just a matter of gearing, pick lower gears, spin more and you'll raise LT-power and and stack it right on top of VO2-max power. The track guys have no problems doing this. :) This balancing-act is also how tall thin guys with big lungs can make up for muscle-strength weaknesses against stocky sprinters, spin more to use more of the aerobic-capacity and tax the muscles less.

There is a mis-understanding here. By definition, you can't TT 1 hour at your vo2max power or power output at vo2max because you just can't. Your all out 5 minutes power is a good indication of your vo2max power. After 5 minutes, you would notice you body just can't sustain the effort any longer. Whereas power at LT, you can sustain the effort for couple of hours. That's why when TT you are riding at your LT power. No one TT at vo2max power. Too many vo2max power intervals can reduce your endurance.




Yup, that's why the original suggestion on doing intervals.

That's just a matter of gearing, pick lower gears, spin more and you'll raise LT-power and and stack it right on top of VO2-max power. The track guys have no problems doing this. :) This balancing-act is also how tall thin guys with big lungs can make up for muscle-strength weaknesses against stocky sprinters, spin more to use more of the aerobic-capacity and tax the muscles less.

R600, I appreciate your input, but truly, where do you come up with some of your ideas?!? Lets first talk abot LT power otherwise defined as the max amount of power output you can sustain over 60 minutes, defined by some authors as CP60. It is defined this way, because it is not a sustainable effort for a "couple of hours." A couple of hours would be your CP120.


you can't TT 1 hour at your vo2max power or power output at vo2max because you just can't. Your all out 5 minutes power is a good indication of your vo2max power.
Interesting reasoning behind that, but believe it or not, people have trained (and been genetically gifted/cursed) to have a CP5 at almost the same level as a CP60. These people are not sprinter types at all, but are able to hold LT right up against the VO2 max (about 95% VO2max). Of course having said that, VO2 max is not something that is sustainable for 5 minutes so please do not say that a power output over five minutes is a good estimate of your VO2max power. I do agree that no one TTs at VO2 max power unless it is a sprint.


Too many vo2max power intervals can reduce your endurance.
What on earth are you talking about? Do you understand anything about endurance? I have read over and over again about your 400 watts of soul crushing 17w/kg power output (taking liberty to exaggerate here) but would you like to tell us all under what authority you are making this statement? How are you defining endurance? What is the cutoff defining "too many?" What are you even defining as VO2 max power? I would love to read the explanation of these items, so please feel free to elaborate. Your background in exercise physiology must be much more extensive than my own. I would love for you to enlighten us with your wealth of power knowledge as it relates to exercise phys.

Vino, if I find any spare watts, I'll fed ex them your way. You are one of the few other "attackers" here and so deserve the wattage!

Looks like we are from different school of thought. Gee, don't know who is Andy Coggan? Go here and hopes the graph does show up:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-308573-15-1.html

Well, I won't waste my time explain much.

You use CyclingPeak software, right? What is your vo2max power number? Mine is anything above 300w. I am so happened to be able to generate 303w for 5 minutes.


R600, I appreciate your input, but truly, where do you come up with some of your ideas?!? Lets first talk abot LT power otherwise defined as the max amount of power output you can sustain over 60 minutes, defined by some authors as CP60. It is defined this way, because it is not a sustainable effort for a "couple of hours." A couple of hours would be your CP120.


Interesting reasoning behind that, but believe it or not, people have trained (and been genetically gifted/cursed) to have a CP5 at almost the same level as a CP60. These people are not sprinter types at all, but are able to hold LT right up against the VO2 max (about 95% VO2max). Of course having said that, VO2 max is not something that is sustainable for 5 minutes so please do not say that a power output over five minutes is a good estimate of your VO2max power. I do agree that no one TTs at VO2 max power unless it is a sprint.


What on earth are you talking about? Do you understand anything about endurance? I have read over and over again about your 400 watts of soul crushing 17w/kg power output (taking liberty to exaggerate here) but would you like to tell us all under what authority you are making this statement? How are you defining endurance? What is the cutoff defining "too many?" What are you even defining as VO2 max power? I would love to read the explanation of these items, so please feel free to elaborate. Your background in exercise physiology must be much more extensive than my own. I would love for you to enlighten us with your wealth of power knowledge as it relates to exercise phys.

This totally depends on the definition of LT which various quite a bit depending on who you talk to. To me it means the point at which your blood contains 4 mmole of lactate. In other words it's the inflection point at which your muscles can no longer produce power aerobically. This is not necessarily the same number as FTP (functional threshold power aka CP60) which means the average power you can sustain for one hour. FTP is typically slightly higher than LT. My LT was measured at 285 watts using the blood test; my best one hour power with the PowerTap is 290 watts--but admittedly I haven't done too much testing since getting the PT last week.

Some people (depends on genetics) can train their LT to be very near their VO2Max. 95% is probably higher than most people can attain but DrWJODonnell may be one of those lucky genetic freaks. I would be very happy with 90% and that's my goal.

Speaking of VO2Max... There are different ways to measure this but the most common is to continue to increase wattage in 30-50 watt increments every minute until the subject can no longer continue. Or sometimes it's done in three minute increments--but you can see how the number attained might be different depending on which method is used. When I did the testing, it was three minute increments and I could no longer continue once I got to 360 watts. But, of course, that was after doing three minutes each at 240, 280, and 320. The highest 5 minute power number I've recorded while still fresh (admittedly I've only tried once since the VO2Max test was done last week) is 350 watts. So, CP5 is not too far off and serves as a pretty good ballpark estimate in my case.

--Steve

Too many vo2max power intervals can reduce your endurance.

If by "too many" you are referring to overtraining or neglecting other aspects of training then yeah. But it's not the VO2Max intervals themselves that cause the endurance reduction. It's the neglect of endurance training or rest that causes the reduction.

--Steve

Looks like we are from different school of thought. Gee, don't know who is Andy Coggan? Go here and hopes the graph does show up:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-308573-15-1.html

Well, I won't waste my time explain much.

You use CyclingPeak software, right? What is your vo2max power number? Mine is anything above 300w. I am so happened to be able to generate 303w for 5 minutes.

Now I understand. You are not talking about VO2max, but Coggan's VO2max training zone. This does NOT correspond to physiological VO2 max. But, since this is what you are talking about, yes it is possible to train LT to 100% of VO2max (not the case if you are talking about physiological VO2 max).

Still, even Coggan himself notes that this number is designed to be held longer than CP5 "such that completion of more than 30-40 minute total training time is difficult at best." (from Training and Racing with a Power Meter).

As for the loss of endurance, see Zimbo's quote above.

**Edit** By the way, it seems that what you are calling VO2 max might more appropriately correspond to something called Ventilatory Threshold. Just an FYI in case you see the phrase in print.

If you read his book a little bit further, you will discover that his idea of testing is testing the performance itself. Vo2max power is just that. Power at vo2max. 1 to 5 minutes max power effort is a good indication of your vo2max power. Search the forum for more details. He does not favor the "critical power" protocol in ways to extrapolate your FT from your CP15 or whatever. You want to know your FT, go do a 1 hour TT. Sprinting workout is also called superthreshold or L6 workout. Intensity is 150% of your FT. Is beyond vo2max power. Sprinting workout is purely AT.

The reason your 5 minutes and FT powers are so close is that you are very close to your FT ceiling and improvement is not possible without raising your vo2max power. It is then you work on your vo2max power so that you can further improve your FT. You have reached your plateau, to simply put it.


Now I understand. You are not talking about VO2max, but Coggan's VO2max training zone. This does NOT correspond to physiological VO2 max. But, since this is what you are talking about, yes it is possible to train LT to 100% of VO2max (not the case if you are talking about physiological VO2 max).

Still, even Coggan himself notes that this number is designed to be held longer than CP5 "such that completion of more than 30-40 minute total training time is difficult at best." (from Training and Racing with a Power Meter).

As for the loss of endurance, see Zimbo's quote above.

**Edit** By the way, it seems that what you are calling VO2 max might more appropriately correspond to something called Ventilatory Threshold. Just an FYI in case you see the phrase in print.

If you read his book a little bit further, you will discover that his idea of testing is testing the performance itself.
He does not favor the "critical power" protocol in ways to extrapolate your FT from your CP15 or whatever. You want to know your FT, go do a 1 hour TT. Sprinting workout is also called superthreshold or L6 workout. Intensity is 150% of your FT. Is beyond vo2max power. Sprinting workout is purely AT.
I understand Coggan and his zones quite well, but thanks for pointing out something that I never denied.

Vo2max power is just that. Power at vo2max.
Great definition...I guess. :) This assumes that you know what VO2max is. True VO2 max is not a training zone, but the MAXIMUM amount of Oxygen uptake one can have. This is usually found in the levels of anaerobic effort, because, even though one has gone anaerobic, they can still consume and uptake more oxygen...just not enough to stay aerobic. I hate to continue this, but Coggan's VO2max training level does not really correspond to actual VO2 max. True VO2 max is almost invariably found at MHR. VO2 max levels could not be sustained 5 minutes according to the true definition.

Search the forum for more details.
Thanks, but I will trust in my graduate education, textbooks, and exercise physiology specialty over the forums.

The reason your 5 minutes and FT powers are so close is that you are very close to your FT ceiling and improvement is not possible without raising your vo2max power. It is then you work on your vo2max power so that you can further improve your FT. You have reached your plateau, to simply put it.

Ummm...yeah.


Some people (depends on genetics) can train their LT to be very near their VO2Max. 95% is probably higher than most people can attain but DrWJODonnell may be one of those lucky genetic freaks. I would be very happy with 90% and that's my goal.
Still wishing I was a genetic freak :) but with an MHR of 198, I just did an hour TT two days ago average HR 189. So, well I guess I am lucky. Or not. After all, its true that I cannot sprint worth beans. So that is why you all put me to shame in crits.:)

[QUOTE
Still wishing I was a genetic freak :) but with an MHR of 198, I just did an hour TT two days ago average HR 189. So, well I guess I am lucky. Or not. After all, its true that I cannot sprint worth beans. So that is why you all put me to shame in crits.:)[/QUOTE]

It looks like your TT heart rate is a huge percentage of your max (~95%). That's pretty high. When you first started training, what % did this start out at?

I'm experiencing acronynm virtigo :p

First started training it was 176.

First started training it was 176.
so it sounds like it was pretty high to start off with, even before you did directed training. no wonder you fly in TT's! You can really drive your engine hard before it redlines!

First started training it was 176.Wow, so you raised your LT from 176 to 189bpm? Any measurements of power-output at these heartrates before & after? You're a monster, good work! :)

its not too uncommon, my LT has gone from about 168 to 186bpm, but my MHR isnt as close to my LT as his,my MHR is 204 as far as Ive evr been able to push it