About 2 months ago I did the overnight fasting for morning blood work. Doc said total cholesterol was 249 and put me on Crestor. Less than 2 weeks later I was at a health fair and had the 10 minute quickie test with a reading of 174 (no overnight fast). Now I had only been taking the Crestor for about 5 days with no significant changes in diet or routine.

So my questions are: Is the quickie cholesterol test accurate? How much variability is there in these tests? Is there any downside to taking Crestor if the actual cholesterol reading is below 200?

HDL was 47 (I think) so the doc was not terribly concerned.

read this and decide!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1411694759/qid=1151406253/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-7417119-0649418?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

About 2 months ago I did the overnight fasting for morning blood work. Doc said total cholesterol was 249 and put me on Crestor. Less than 2 weeks later I was at a health fair and had the 10 minute quickie test with a reading of 174 (no overnight fast). Now I had only been taking the Crestor for about 5 days with no significant changes in diet or routine.

So my questions are: Is the quickie cholesterol test accurate? How much variability is there in these tests? Is there any downside to taking Crestor if the actual cholesterol reading is below 200?

HDL was 47 (I think) so the doc was not terribly concerned.

The best person to answer this question is your doctor.

Well to start with I'm a cholesterol skeptic. There are a couple of articles here you should read though, http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/index.html

To start with a cholesterol level of 250 is NORMAL and not high. Prescribing you statins for such a level is an act of coruption.

Non fasting tests are realy inacurate but personaly I would be concerned over such a LOW cholesterol level. The ALL cause death rate is higher for those with LOW cholesterol. Now part of this may be because those with low cholesterol become seriously depressed but it none the less of concern.

Regards, Anthony

Be aware that a couple people giving you health advice here fall into the catagory of what the majority would call "out of the norm".

I do not take my financial planing from the homeless, and i wouldnt take my health info from someone who had his fillings removed, filters his shower water, advices against microwave ovens and vaccinactions, and chews on dried beef fat as an energy bar.

I'd recomend your doctor.

Doesn't it have to do with what kind of LDL's you have? Some people have large LDL cells which don't get absorbed in cell walls that easily, some people have small LDL cells.

I have been on Lipitor for years and from what I have been told, if you do not fast it does not significantly affect your total cholestreol (LDL and HDL), but it will affect your trigylicerides (they will be high, dependent on time and what your last meal is)
Though I am not sure how long it takes a stain drug to start working at its fun potentinal, they have to be metabolised in the liver to be active, so that is a few days... and stain's trick the body into not synthesizing as much of its own cholestreol (this is my take on them). But I can not stress enough, have your liver enzyemes tested (I think they say something like 2m after you start, than 6m later, and than every year after that, it is only like a 25 dollar test, and most docters will call in the blood work order and you can have it taken at somewhere else to avoid a doctor's visit) to insure that your liver is not affected by the stain drug.
Have you tried adjusting your diet? Somepeople can drop 50 points there, others (like me) only drop 4-5 points, dependent on where your diet was to how you changed it, but a large effect seem to be genetic and no matter what you eat your choelstrol will stay were it was.
If you have any question talk to your doctor, ask him/her everything you dont understand, or want to know more about.

[QUOTE=AnthonyG]Well to start with I'm a cholesterol skeptic. There are a couple of articles here you should read though, http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/index.html

To start with a cholesterol level of 250 is NORMAL and not high. Prescribing you statins for such a level is an act of coruption.

Non fasting tests are realy inacurate but personaly I would be concerned over such a LOW cholesterol level. The ALL cause death rate is higher for those with LOW cholesterol. Now part of this may be because those with low cholesterol become seriously depressed but it none the less of concern.

Regards, Anthony[/QUO

And you are giving misinformation to others so dont.

Be aware that a couple people giving you health advice here fall into the catagory of what the majority would call "out of the norm".

I do not take my financial planing from the homeless, and i wouldnt take my health info from someone who had his fillings removed, filters his shower water, advices against microwave ovens and vaccinactions, and chews on dried beef fat as an energy bar.

I'd recomend your doctor.

+100

Also, don't ever read one biased website and then decide how to care for yourself. You can go to college get a PhD in biochemistry and read all of the literature on the subject, or just call your doctor.

+100

Also, don't ever read one biased website and then decide how to care for yourself. You can go to college get a PhD in biochemistry and read all of the literature on the subject, or just call your doctor.

the trouble with relying on a doctor is that you are relying on someone who probably hasnt put much thought or analysis into the subject at hand and who is just going along with the herd.

the best thing to do is take a long hard objective look at the source of the lipid hypothesis, look at the actual evidence and reasoning that went into it, remain as objective as you can. If, after that, you still think it's advisable to worry about cholestoral, then, well, you probably weren't looking very hard, hahaa...

the trouble with relying on a doctor is that you are relying on someone who probably hasnt put much thought or analysis into the subject at hand and who is just going along with the herd.

the best thing to do is take a long hard objective look at the source of the lipid hypothesis, look at the actual evidence and reasoning that went into it, remain as objective as you can. If, after that, you still think it's advisable to worry about cholestoral, then, well, you probably weren't looking very hard, hahaa...

Curious. With that POV, why bother getting cholesterol levels checked?

the trouble with relying on a doctor is that you are relying on someone who probably hasnt put much thought or analysis into the subject at hand and who is just going along with the herd.

the best thing to do is take a long hard objective look at the source of the lipid hypothesis, look at the actual evidence and reasoning that went into it, remain as objective as you can. If, after that, you still think it's advisable to worry about cholestoral, then, well, you probably weren't looking very hard, hahaa...

I disagree. I am a scientist working in developing in vivo preclinical efficacy models for infectious diseases, but have several years experience in metabolic diseases as well. I have found that the vast majority of doctors are well informed and know how to critique the literature. They are required to maintain their education to remain licensed. They may not know the literature the way I do as a scientist, but they clearly know more than laypersons. The reality is that most people have no idea how to read or interpret scientific studies. It takes many years of education and experience to properly evaluate scientific literature along with having an in depth understanding of biochemistry, immunology, and so on. That is why it is best to talk to an expert or at least your family doctor.

Besides,it in the tests,family history,your weight and lots of others factors before you go on drugs.

Curious. With that POV, why bother getting cholesterol levels checked?


EXACTLY!!!!!

I disagree. I am a scientist working in developing in vivo preclinical efficacy models for infectious diseases, but have several years experience in metabolic diseases as well. I have found that the vast majority of doctors are well informed and know how to critique the literature. They are required to maintain their education to remain licensed. They may not know the literature the way I do as a scientist, but they clearly know more than laypersons. The reality is that most people have no idea how to read or interpret scientific studies. It takes many years of education and experience to properly evaluate scientific literature along with having an in depth understanding of biochemistry, immunology, and so on. That is why it is best to talk to an expert or at least your family doctor.


I dont know how else you can explain how so many supposedly well informed doctors can support a notion as flimsy as the lipid hypothesis. and not only support it, but flog dangerous drugs on the public.

I dont know how else you can explain how so many supposedly well informed doctors can support a notion as flimsy as the lipid hypothesis. and not only support it, but flog dangerous drugs on the public.

Um, maybe because you are wrong?? There are more than 12,000 studies supporting this "flimsy" notion. There isn't much in this world that gets that level of scientific support.

I dont know how else you can explain how so many supposedly well informed doctors can support a notion as flimsy as the lipid hypothesis. and not only support it, but flog dangerous drugs on the public.

Good,go keep your cholesterol. I dont want mine.

Um, maybe because you are wrong?? There are more than 12,000 studies supporting this "flimsy" notion. There isn't much in this world that gets that level of scientific support.

well, no, I ain't wrong. Show me one study that conclusively demonstrates a direct causative link between high cholestoral and heart disease.



here's an interesting editorial posted on www.weightoftheevidence.com ( a low carb blog that regularly dissects the so called evidence for the lipid hypothesis...)

it's written by a doctor, by the way


ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
Gil Wilshire, MD, FACOG


...Low-fat dietary recommendations were born in the late 1950's out of the work of Ancel Keys. Although we can now see that these studies were fatally flawed by selection bias and confounding variables, the "conclusions," which were actually inferences, were widely accepted. In the past, this phenomenon of acceptance of an authority opinion was common at this time. Healthcare workers and policy makers were generally unaware of the concept of evidence-based medicine, let alone the rigor of Level 1 evidence; that is prospective, randomized human studies.

Now it is 2006, and the low-fat and cholesterol dietary recommendations of Keys remain essentially unchanged, except for the fact that the extremists are now becoming ever more so. We are now experiencing the full onslaught of what Bacon so aptly described as "pernicious predetermination."

What I find so alarming and disturbing is the fact that in the past half century NOT ONE SMIDGEN OF LEVEL 1 EVIDENCE HAS BEEN GENERATED TO SUPPORT THESE RECOMMENDATIONS. I don't know how to say it any louder or clearer.

Virtually everything I do in my medical practice must have rigorous scientific validation before I use it on a patient. Why should public dietary advice be an exception?

My levels of alarm and frustration are very high. If people can convince themselves to drink cyanide-laced Kool-aid, I consider that to be their choice and their problem; but in this analogy, the powers that be want all the rest of us to drink it too! The low-fat proponents consider their position to be so obvious that it does not need any scientific validation. I'm sure they believe their position much the same way when people believed the sun revolves around the earth. It's just obvious, no?

I now live and work in my newly adopted state of Missouri. They have a great motto around these parts: "Show Me." Please somebody, anybody, show me a body of Level 1 (or well-done Level 2) evidence that supports low fat and low cholesterol dietary recommendations for the population at large! Show me some high-quality data. Show me that someone has bothered to properly test the 50 year-old hypothesis.

In the absence of this information, I would like to make the following recommendation:

AN IMMEDIATE MORATORIUM ON ALL POPULATION-WIDE DIETARY RECOMMENDATIONS THAT LACK SUPPORT FROM WELL-PERFORMED, PROSPECTIVE, EVIDENCE-BASED HUMAN STUDIES.

Sanity in this field will only come out of a complete overhaul. We need to tear down the current edifice of confusion to its most basic foundations, and rebuild it from the bedrock up.

As a side note, I am not blind to the ramifications of my statements. The thought of six billion or so apex predators (which we are) returning to a diet we evolved to eat is a very scary proposition. The current ravages of the bush meat trade in Africa would be trivial in comparison to the carnage wrought by billions of hunters on a global landscape. It is likely that Homo erectus has caused numerous mass extinctions of prey species in the past from uncontrolled hunting. Numerous animals and large fish are currently undergoing decimation.

I also wish nothing ill upon our grain farmers. I now live in the Heartland, and one would be hard-pressed to find a more honorable and hard-working bunch of people anywhere in the world. I understand the economic implications of a shift back to meat-based protein food sources would be profound.

Nevertheless, if a grain-heavy food pyramid is being promoted because it is in our country's best economic interests, then just tell me and also communicate this to the American public. I'm actually OK with that. I am willing to put environmental stewardship ahead of my personal interests, just don't call it good nutrition, evidence-based, a balanced diet or healthful eating and expect me to buy it or promote it to patients with chronic disease.

We are in a health crisis in the United States. Surely, with all of our accumulated knowledge and wisdom, we can find a workable solution that is supported by evidence, is economically feasible and returns our population to good health.

I see Dr. Wilshire is a dedicated (part-time) doctor.

From the www.eddiebeckerband.com

Dr. Gil Wilshire - Trumpet

Gil Wilshire divides his time between music, family raising, doctoring, and business development. Although he is a professional musician at heart, he is also a pragmatist who likes to be able to pay his bills while investing in new trumpets.

Gil has played the trumpet and related brass instruments for over 35 years. He has studied with such trumpet luminaries as Jerome Callet, Leonard Goines, Vaughn Nark, Chuck Ohman, and John Blount. In college he had the opportunities to play with trumpet legends such as Woody Shaw and Ted Curson.

He has played along in his basement with recordings of influential bands from leaders such as Maynard Ferguson, Freddie Hubbard, "Hannibal" Marvin Peterson, Earth Wind & Fire, and Chick Corea. His most prize possession is a trumpet mute signed by Arturo Sandoval, Doc Severinsen, Wynton Marsalis, Maynard Ferguson, Vaughn Nark, and Vince DiMartino.

Gil has recently moved his family to Missouri to further his day-job profession as a Doctor. Gil intends to maintain his connection to the band. We look forward to the day when he is back up on stage with us giving it his all - as he always does!

I see Dr. Wilshire is a dedicated (part-time) doctor.

From the www.eddiebeckerband.com

Dr. Gil Wilshire - Trumpet

Gil Wilshire divides his time between music, family raising, doctoring, and business development. Although he is a professional musician at heart, he is also a pragmatist who likes to be able to pay his bills while investing in new trumpets.

Gil has played the trumpet and related brass instruments for over 35 years. He has studied with such trumpet luminaries as Jerome Callet, Leonard Goines, Vaughn Nark, Chuck Ohman, and John Blount. In college he had the opportunities to play with trumpet legends such as Woody Shaw and Ted Curson.

He has played along in his basement with recordings of influential bands from leaders such as Maynard Ferguson, Freddie Hubbard, "Hannibal" Marvin Peterson, Earth Wind & Fire, and Chick Corea. His most prize possession is a trumpet mute signed by Arturo Sandoval, Doc Severinsen, Wynton Marsalis, Maynard Ferguson, Vaughn Nark, and Vince DiMartino.

Gil has recently moved his family to Missouri to further his day-job profession as a Doctor. Gil intends to maintain his connection to the band. We look forward to the day when he is back up on stage with us giving it his all - as he always does!

So he does something else in his spare time... whats your point? Better tell all the part time doctors around here to stop cycling.

The point is, it's clearly more than spare time.

The point is, it's clearly more than spare time.

the point is, semi will grasp at ANYTHING to hold onto his cherished lipid hypothesis...

My .02$
I was tested high, I adjusted my diet slightly, up my riding slightly as well the intensity of the ride. Within six months I was in the lower normal range and have maintained that range now. My doctor wouldn't have dreamed of prescribing without at least giving me a chance to reduce naturally. Some doctors are most anxious to prescribe, that's what second opinions are for.

I dont know of anyone that wasnt told first as i was to adjust what they ate and to more and come back and retest,nobody.

the point is, semi will grasp at ANYTHING to hold onto his cherished lipid hypothesis...

I'd love to claim it, but it's not mine.

I'm not a lipid scientist but....

If your cholestorol levels are such a good indicator why do 50% of the people dying of heart attacks have normal levels? I noticed on one drug that the fine print says that it has never been proven to lower the risk or incidence of heart attacks. Personally I think that the whole cholestrol lowering thing is one of the biggest scams in history. For the record, for the past 12 years I have been helping people heal and live whose doctors say they are terminal or incurable. As a result I am less than impressed with our medical system

I'm not a lipid scientist but....

If your cholestorol levels are such a good indicator why do 50% of the people dying of heart attacks have normal levels?

Can you site your source?

I'm not a lipid scientist but....

If your cholestorol levels are such a good indicator why do 50% of the people dying of heart attacks have normal levels? I noticed on one drug that the fine print says that it has never been proven to lower the risk or incidence of heart attacks. Personally I think that the whole cholestrol lowering thing is one of the biggest scams in history. For the record, for the past 12 years I have been helping people heal and live whose doctors say they are terminal or incurable. As a result I am less than impressed with our medical system

Its not the only reason. Did somewone say all heart attachs were from it?

A question for those of you who've taken statins, especially if the type of statin had to be changed or dosage modified: what are some of the side affects you've experienced? Were they enough to make you change or have your doctor change your prescription?

A question for those of you who've taken statins, especially if the type of statin had to be changed or dosage modified: what are some of the side affects you've experienced? Were they enough to make you change or have your doctor change your prescription?

Leg cramps. My wife had them, and a riding buddy also had them. Disappeared with a different dosage/prescription.

Az

If you don't have documented vascular disease, or are at high risk, i.e. a diabetic, hypertensive with other risk factors, etc., there is no evidence you will benefit from statins. I'm not saying you won't, but there is no proof you will.

Despite the fact that your doctor has a degree, and is a doctor, you needn't trust everything he says. Lots of doctors are dinks, and give bad advice.

Statins are a drug company's goldmine. I'd be very suspicious about them.

The unknowns are important here. Ones family history is not included in the equation, your diet, history of smoking, second hand smoke exposure, the samples your doc has in his cupboard, his golf partners...

The cholesterol/vascular disease picture is everchanging. It's a quagmire. I'm not implying Crestor can't be your friend, it's just that it's far from clear that you need it based on the info presented. If the guy said your total chol. was "x" and you need to take this chemical for this reason alone...well, to put it bluntly, he's a tool.

If you don't have documented vascular disease, or are at high risk, i.e. a diabetic, hypertensive with other risk factors, etc., there is no evidence you will benefit from statins. I'm not saying you won't, but there is no proof you will.

Despite the fact that your doctor has a degree, and is a doctor, you needn't trust everything he says. Lots of doctors are dinks, and give bad advice.

Statins are a drug company's goldmine. I'd be very suspicious about them.

The unknowns are important here. Ones family history is not included in the equation, your diet, history of smoking, second hand smoke exposure, the samples your doc has in his cupboard, his golf partners...

The cholesterol/vascular disease picture is everchanging. It's a quagmire. I'm not implying Crestor can't be your friend, it's just that it's far from clear that you need it based on the info presented. If the guy said your total chol. was "x" and you need to take this chemical for this reason alone...well, to put it bluntly, he's a tool.

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn?

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn?

heehee thanks for the belly laugh.

Can you site your source?

check any source you want, they will all tell you the same thing, only 50% of CHD cases coincide with high cholestoral. this is well known.

of course, who knows how many people with high cholestoral dont end up with heart disease.

I don't know all of the techno details about cholesterol, but one thing I know is my own history.... to be brief...

1. Cholesterol test = 245. Weight = 215 lb.
2. Changed diet, low fat, more salads, no fast food.
3. Ride bicycle.
4. Tested cholesterol after 6 mo, = 190. Weight = 185.
5. Ride bicycle, maintain healthy diet.
6. Test cholesterol after 3 more mo = 172. Weight = 185.

=)

Healty = me.

check any source you want, they will all tell you the same thing, only 50% of CHD cases coincide with high cholestoral. this is well known.

I did. The remaining instances are attributed to other conditions such as diabetes, high blood pressure and smoking. But to suggest that the medical communitity has some kind of responsibility for not being able to stop the disease (i.e. the comment about the fine print on a drug) is kind of silly. Most of the responsibility lies with the changes the patient is willing to make in his or her lifestyle.

[/QUOTE]of course, who knows how many people with high cholestoral dont end up with heart disease.[/QUOTE]

For now, we don't know. Unless someone ends up with cardiovascular disease, insurance won't pay for the procedures that can assess the level of blockage that may exist in the arteries surrounding the heart. Until then, those who have not already been sent in for a stent or a bypass can only hope they are doing the right thing.

I did. The remaining instances are attributed to other conditions such as diabetes, high blood pressure and smoking.


I'd say a good portion of the high cholestorol group could be also attributed to stress, smoking, diabetes, etc. etc.


But to suggest that the medical communitity has some kind of responsibility for not being able to stop the disease (i.e. the comment about the fine print on a drug) is kind of silly. Most of the responsibility lies with the changes the patient is willing to make in his or her lifestyle.



<of course, who knows how many people with high cholestoral dont end up with heart disease.>

For now, we don't know. Unless someone ends up with cardiovascular disease, insurance won't pay for the procedures that can assess the level of blockage that may exist in the arteries surrounding the heart. Until then, those who have not already been sent in for a stent or a bypass can only hope they are doing the right thing.

and unfortunately, the medical community continues to give out very bad advice.

the advice that the medical community should be giving, the advice that is actually supported by real science, should be to exercise, quit or better yet, never start smoking, avoid/manage stress, eliminate starches, grains, and sugar from your diet.

really, anyone who still believes in and makes very serious health choices based on in the lipid hypothesis, you owe it to yourself to read anthony colpo's book, available at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1411694759/qid=1151944648/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3148050-5236901?s=books&v=glance&n=283155.

Do you feel the medical community doesn't recommend exercise and giving up smoking?

If either parent has it,you have a better chance of it. If both do,you will have it most the time.
After i had kinney stones they found mine at 345. I was already cycling and had been watching what i eat for a long time. Went on on of the drugs,cut it to 295. Doubled the dose and it went down to 250. Switched to another,lipitor. Been at 195-205. I have a friend who eats everything,overweight and doesnt do anything and his is 170 so there ya go.

Do you feel the medical community doesn't recommend exercise and giving up smoking?


noooo, of course not, my OBVIOUS point was that the medical community promotes the low fat diet, and demonizes sat. fat. but you knew that didnt you?

noooo, of course not, my OBVIOUS point was that the medical community promotes the low fat diet, and demonizes sat. fat. but you knew that didnt you?

Yup.

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn?

Sorry, missed the inner meaning of that, but for another belly full of laughs, if you want to more accurately assess your cardiovascular risk, get your health care provider to do a blood pressure in your arm and leg and compare, or simply measure your waist.

For some more yuks, do an honest analysis of what really fills the old pie hole. If you're rich, get a CT angiogram...lots of ways to spend your money in health care, and even more people happy to take your dough!

A nice critical analysis of many drugs can be found at Therapeutics Initiative at UBC. They talk about the statin issue in detail. Read it, and understand, and you'll know more about the issue than most "docs".

Good luck with the cholesterol thing.

Sorry to burst your bubble but i did my research before getting a doctor and trust mine with my life.

Freddy's whole paleo fad diet is based on the supposed 'scientific' fact that carbs produce a spike in insulin.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/5/1264

According to that study, beef is worse than pasta for spiking insulin. Maybe those forum members who read medical studies for a living can sort it out better than myself.

Sorry to burst your bubble but i did my research before getting a doctor and trust mine with my life.

No problem. It's terrific you've got such a positive relationship. With respect to your bubble, I don't mean to imply you shouldn't take the statin du jour, it's just that there is no evidence that primary prevention in low or moderate risk people is any good. If you feel your risk is high...fill your boots.

The OP seemed to suggest he was given the drug based on a total cholesterol, or a poor ratio. That is simply poor medicine. Not knowing your risk, I can't comment on your situation. It should be high to justify the treatment with lipitor. Take care.

I'm in a foul mood with respect to relationships people have with their physicians, or lack thereof. The system up here doesn't encourage any form of informed consent to enter the md visit. "Too little time to talk right now." So a high "cholesterol=medicine" encounter sours my BF experience!:o

The insulin spike issue mentioned is so much more important, in my view, that cholesterol will fade in the big picture. When you go to your doc in a few years, with your post-meal insulin level, you can bet there will be a wonder drug to be prescribed...not "you", but I mean the ave. North American.

Freddy's whole paleo fad diet is based on the supposed 'scientific' fact that carbs produce a spike in insulin.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/5/1264

According to that study, beef is worse than pasta for spiking insulin. Maybe those forum members who read medical studies for a living can sort it out better than myself.


ask any diabetic which foods cause their blood sugars to jump up... and which don't...

ask any diabetic which foods cause their blood sugars to jump up... and which don't...

Hmmm...I don't think he said anything about blood sugar.

About 2 months ago I did the overnight fasting for morning blood work. Doc said total cholesterol was 249 and put me on Crestor. Less than 2 weeks later I was at a health fair and had the 10 minute quickie test with a reading of 174 (no overnight fast). Now I had only been taking the Crestor for about 5 days with no significant changes in diet or routine.

So my questions are: Is the quickie cholesterol test accurate? How much variability is there in these tests? Is there any downside to taking Crestor if the actual cholesterol reading is below 200?

HDL was 47 (I think) so the doc was not terribly concerned.

Quickie test accurate? If it was thats what the doc would use so the answer is no.
Tests will show good and bad and a bunch of other stuff,fasting and then a blood workup is pretty right on.
Takes longer then a few days to work. 6 weeks for your next blood or something like that.
Look it up on google for side effects. I get a bit of cramping in the hands but thats it.

Hmmm...I don't think he said anything about blood sugar.


hmm, where was that "ignore" button anyway?

Freddy's whole paleo fad diet is based on the supposed 'scientific' fact that carbs produce a spike in insulin.



um, no.

that is only one plank in the mighty low carb platform.

the paleo fad diet as you call it is also based on:

2 million plus years of evolution
blood sugar control
appetite controll (high fat diet satisfies and controlls hunger)
lipid profile improvements
proven weight loss results

and oh yeah, insulin control as well.