Framebuilders - bruce gordon chinook

Anyone know anything about a "Chinook", by bruce gordon? I recently bought one. I tried calling him, but he wants to charge me 80 bucks to find out anything about it. Well, I was able to get him to at least tell me it was from twenty something years ago. Any info would help. thanks

I have been a fan of Bruce's work for 25 years, and often have defended him against people complaining what an ass he can be to deal with. But as time passes he seems to be more than living up to his reputation as being *difficult*
He complains all over the internet that he doesn't make any money or get enough orders to keep the doors open. Well hello! :rolleyes:

Maybe he should follow through with his threat to quit building bikes, He might be happier then.

Let me get this straight; he wants you to pay him for info on one of his products?

What a tool!

I feel that I must reply.
Bruce Gordon Cycles has been in business for 30 years this month. In that time I have built about 2000 frames, 572 Lugged Bruce Gordon frames, and 101 Chinook frames. I have all the information including original order forms, specifications, invoices for every frame I have sold. Unfortunately, all this info is in dusty boxes in my loft. It takes at least an hour to locate the info on a particular frame. I work with my hands for a living (which many people don't these days) so any time I spend looking up old info is time I am not making things. Since many of my frames have had more than one owner, I get 3 to 4 calls a week asking for info. I cannot spend 1/2 a day per week looking up specs without getting paid for my time. My shop rate is $80 per hour. People must understand that I only made money when I sold the frame, in the case of a Chinook - that was 24 years ago.
If people respect my work, then I would hope people will also have enough respect my time to realize that it is worth something.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles
www.bgcycles.com

...and do you charge $80 to tell someone about one of those frames?

If people respect my work, then I would hope people will also have enough respect my time to realize that it is worth something.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles
www.bgcycles.com


It's not a matter of respect, it's a matter of public relations. 3 - 4 people calling a week means the phone is ringing; it's up to you to maximize the value of those calls (and charging for basic info ain't gonna do it).

I've had several custom frames built (Serotta, Andy Gilmour, Doug Curtis [Curtlo]...) so I'm not just some spectator. I no longer work with my hands; I'm a very well-paid marketing consultant. I can afford custom frames because companies large and small pay me to help them improve their business.

If you want to be known as the cranky framebuilder that's your choice.
I, for one, prefer to do business with pleasant people and I would venture that most people feel the same way.

What kind of info was superseven trying to get about the Chinook? I can understand if he wanted to know who the original owner was, what the part number for the bottom bracket shell is, the paint code number etc..., but if he just wanted some basic info then $80 is pretty ridiculous.

"It's not a matter of respect, it's a matter of public relations. 3 - 4 people calling a week means the phone is ringing; it's up to you to maximize the value of those calls (and charging for basic info ain't gonna do it)."

Absolutely! Maybe Bruce should see if they want some stock, or a 30 tape personal success system.

In Bruce's case, let's imagine after 30 years he actually has some orders on the books, a lot of guys of his stature have more orders than they can fill they have to quit advertising or raise prices to comic "I never ride my bike" art levels. Let's pretend for the moment he is telling the truth and that:

A) He doesn't get paid unless he is working, (which likely extends down through the ranks of the few people that work with him, if Bruce is yakking up a non-productive storm, why should they work either);

B) Let's accept that he gets about 200 calls a year from the second hand owners, and has a pretty good idea that every one of them isn't a gold mine of prospects, but class A time wasters. Nice wonderful people that love Bruce's work, especially the early years, really early...

"I can afford custom frames because companies large and small pay me to help them improve their business."

Man a consultant, you have your own business cards and everything? Maybe even worked a full time gig at one time before the downsizing... Unbelievable, your own booth at the National Hand Shoveled BS show?

Think about your average bill. Did you bill your current clients for the time spent answering calls from (non-)clients in the past, cause you know, there is a word or two for that kind of behaviour.

"What kind of info was superseven trying to get about the Chinook? I can understand if he wanted to know who the original owner was, what the part number for the bottom bracket shell is, the paint code number etc..., but if he just wanted some basic info then $80 is pretty ridiculous."

I agree, so hit the road is the message. The bottom line is who pays. For one guy, SS, talking to Bruce isn't actually worth 80 bucks, to another guy, the guy whose bike Bruce is building, it is. Maybe we could get a business consultant in here to tell Bruce who his client is...

If it isn't this technical stuff about the frame that would require Bruce to actually do some due diligence and cost some time, then exactly what is it SS wants to gasbag about. I don't blame SS at all for calling, and he got the answer Bruce feels is the right one for the craft he is engaged in. So as long as Bruce is happy with a kinda grave reputation, that he treats adults as adults, he can probably stick with the current marketing plan.

"It's not a matter of respect, it's a matter of public relations. 3 - 4 people calling a week means the phone is ringing; it's up to you to maximize the value of those calls (and charging for basic info ain't gonna do it)."

Absolutely! Maybe Bruce should see if they want some stock, or a 30 tape personal success system.

In Bruce's case, let's imagine after 30 years he actually has some orders on the books, a lot of guys of his stature have more orders than they can fill they have to quit advertising or raise prices to comic "I never ride my bike" art levels. Let's pretend for the moment he is telling the truth and that:

A) He doesn't get paid unless he is working, (which likely extends down through the ranks of the few people that work with him, if Bruce is yakking up a non-productive storm, why should they work either);

B) Let's accept that he gets about 200 calls a year from the second hand owners, and has a pretty good idea that every one of them isn't a gold mine of prospects, but class A time wasters. Nice wonderful people that love Bruce's work, especially the early years, really early...

"I can afford custom frames because companies large and small pay me to help them improve their business."

Man a consultant, you have your own business cards and everything? Maybe even worked a full time gig at one time before the downsizing... Unbelievable, your own booth at the National Hand Shoveled BS show?

Think about your average bill. Did you bill your current clients for the time spent answering calls from (non-)clients in the past, cause you know, there is a word or two for that kind of behaviour.

"What kind of info was superseven trying to get about the Chinook? I can understand if he wanted to know who the original owner was, what the part number for the bottom bracket shell is, the paint code number etc..., but if he just wanted some basic info then $80 is pretty ridiculous."

I agree, so hit the road is the message. The bottom line is who pays. For one guy, SS, talking to Bruce isn't actually worth 80 bucks, to another guy, the guy whose bike Bruce is building, it is. Maybe we could get a business consultant in here to tell Bruce who his client is...

If it isn't this technical stuff about the frame that would require Bruce to actually do some due diligence and cost some time, then exactly what is it SS wants to gasbag about. I don't blame SS at all for calling, and he got the answer Bruce feels is the right one for the craft he is engaged in. So as long as Bruce is happy with a kinda grave reputation, that he treats adults as adults, he can probably stick with the current marketing plan.

Entertaining rant. Misinformed, but entertaining.

Bikes are supposed to be fun. Nobody's dying here.

BG sounds like an angry guy; who wants to deal with that? Maybe therapy would help?

As for your pathetic attempt to ridicule my (very lucrative, trust me) livlihood, puh-leeze...

OK, I'm off to have sex with my hot trophy wife.

Later!

Thanks for the reprint it's all column inches, you know.

Actually I'm not ridiculing your livelihood, I just think your occasionally high priced advice is wrong. It's like if you met Jesus you would tell him to let the children come unto him, but charge 50 bucks for autographs. Your advice would be heartfelt, but not really the business he wants to be in.

You're not listening. Bruce appears to be happy to work for the shop rate, but just wants to get on with it, he doesn't want to exploit the goldmine available to him in talking to used-tire kickers. If he changes his mind he should certainly call you, and you can develop a marketing plan to attrack more non-buyers.

Another possibility is that hard core "nastiness" is his marketing technique. I keep thinking his attitude sounds a lot like Jesse James, who may not have money problems, but complains a lot about time wasters and people who don't want to put in the hours. If people can't take the heat of buying the bike I fear for them on tour.

"it's up to you to maximize the value of those calls"

Reminds me of a guy I used to work with who if he got a particularly annoying call would lean into the phone and self-importantly say "DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE TALKING TO?". If the guy answered "no" My pal would immediately hang up on him. That's maximizing value.

"OK, I'm off to have sex with my hot trophy wife.

Later!"

Dude you have style.

OK, I was tweaking you a bit (my wife's way too cool to be considered a trophy wife); sometimes I just can't resist poking at you super-serious types when you're up on the soapbox.

Actually, you have my advice backwards. By maximizing value I meant in a longer vision kind of way; people calling are people who are interested, and if they aren't in the market for a new frame perhaps they know someone who is. After all, there are only a limited number of BG frames out there; if someone wants one and can't find a used one that satisfies the only alternative is to order a new one.

Also, by giving the new owner of one of his frames the feeling that it is still something special, Bruce will only enhance his own image as well as his products' desirablity.

As for Bruce himself, one has to wonder:

Is he cranky because business is slow or is business slow because he is cranky?


Lastly, if I had the opportunity to meet Jesus I'd be listening, not talking.


(As to the "Thanks for the reprint" crack, when you pay for your Bike Forums membership I'll listen to your concerns about column inches.)

You just flamed frame-Jesus, and you're talking up a storm.

Obviously if you have a marketing hammer every problem looks like a nail. Bruce's wants more time to produce not more time to talk.

"OK, I was tweaking you a bit"

tweak away, I've earned it.

...as have we both.

Peace.

I wouldn't pay it either. Of course a shop rate in SoCal isn't the same as clearing anything.

well, thanks all for your thoughts, and bruce thanks for writing too! I am very happy to learn that only 101 of my bicycles were made. I bought mine on ebay. I still had to sell another bike, and put the rest on a credit card.
All I wanted to know was the frame material.
Before calling mr gordon I had read some interviews with him and did expect a little attitude. But I took it with a grain of salt. I just explained I would take 5 bucks a hour if I could make bikes all day in my own shop. and thanked him.
Personally, I freelance, when I do get work I do get more than 5 an hour. I too work with my hands, dont make 80 a hour shop time though. Still I just skid by with bills. 80 is a lot for me since it could feed me for a week or two. I would pay the money if I could, I would also by a custom from him if I could, maybe a rockn road if I could...bla bla blaaaaa
still love the bike and will ride it till it dies, fix it and ride it again

Let me get this straight; he wants you to pay him for info on one of his products?

What a tool!

Did he just want to know whether the frame was in fact made by him and roughly when (like production year-span), or was he demanding details like frame tubing specs, frame dimensions and provenance? If it was the latter, I would expect to be paid for time spent in archival research, too. Obviously the caller wasn't calling to place an order for a bike; he had bought one second-hand, but somehow had the expectation that he was entitled to the builder's time as if he had bought the bike from him. Then he has the nerve to post online how outraged he feels that he should have to pay a professional for his time. Does he think he can go to an architect's office and chat it up without being told of consultant time fees? Does he think a lawyer's time is free? My guess is he just doesn't appreciate that professionals expect to be paid for their time. (What a fool!)

And Mr. consultant thinks that BG should be yakking it up in the interest of making positive public relations. Maybe serving the paying client should be a priority here, instead of the non-paying bargain- used-bike shopper. "Hey, I really like your stuff, not that I would pay you for it."

Well, lawyers do give a no-charge consultation before they take a case, but that's not really the point.

How realistic is it to expect someone who picked up a used frame to pay an additional $80 for vaporware?
BG didn't need to invite the guy over for a weekend; a few comments about the bike and the OP would have gone away happy and the sun would come up tomorrow.

I think Mr. frame-Jesus (NOT) probably could have handled it better, but what the hell; it's his business.

I feel that I must reply.
Bruce Gordon Cycles has been in business for 30 years this month. In that time I have built about 2000 frames, 572 Lugged Bruce Gordon frames, and 101 Chinook frames. I have all the information including original order forms, specifications, invoices for every frame I have sold. Unfortunately, all this info is in dusty boxes in my loft. It takes at least an hour to locate the info on a particular frame. I work with my hands for a living (which many people don't these days) so any time I spend looking up old info is time I am not making things. Since many of my frames have had more than one owner, I get 3 to 4 calls a week asking for info. I cannot spend 1/2 a day per week looking up specs without getting paid for my time. My shop rate is $80 per hour. People must understand that I only made money when I sold the frame, in the case of a Chinook - that was 24 years ago.
If people respect my work, then I would hope people will also have enough respect my time to realize that it is worth something.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles
www.bgcycles.com

Seems like a good method for driving away potential future customers, both the ones calling for info, and the ones they talk to after being put off. 3 to 4 calls a week? How hard would it be to reorganize the records for easier and more efficient access? I've found word of mouth and reputation to be critical to a craftsmans livelihood. If you look at any handful of the framebuilders who have a long backlog, you'll usually find customers raving about not only the product, but their personal communications with the builder as well. Sometimes giving a little can bring bring a lot more in return.

Well said.

A custom bike is supposed to be something special. and the way one is treated by the builder is step one.

If I want attitude I can always call MAVIC...

gee - talk about a public hanging yo...


Seems like a good method for driving away potential future customers, both the ones calling for info, and the ones they talk to after being put off. 3 to 4 calls a week? How hard would it be to reorganize the records for easier and more efficient access? I've found word of mouth and reputation to be critical to a craftsmans livelihood. If you look at any handful of the framebuilders who have a long backlog, you'll usually find customers raving about not only the product, but their personal communications with the builder as well. Sometimes giving a little can bring bring a lot more in return.
this is all about a second or third hand bicycle frame
that was not even made to order, but batch built, over
24 years ago??! the chinooks were price point frames,
not custom-made-to-order, and you want the guy to
change the book keeping to have easier access to
some generalized information kept in some musty
records in the attic?
hey - bruce can do what he wants, but i think two
decades plus a few is long enough for the statute of
limitations to run out.



Well said.

A custom bike is supposed to be something special. and the way one is treated by the builder is step one.

If I want attitude I can always call MAVIC...
see above.
the chinooks were not custom bikes. they were made
down to a price, and in their day, much nicer than
most production frames in the retail stores.



hey - i feel for the OP wrt wanting to fetch some arcane
details about an old bike. all of us keep our records differently
and they are not always within arm's reach. i suggest sending
a sase and a note and ask to have the info forwarded by post
whenever bruce can get into the archives.

"I've found word of mouth and reputation to be critical to a craftsmans livelihood."

So, apparently, has BG, he is just working the details a little diferently than some.

"How realistic is it to expect someone who picked up a used frame to pay an additional $80 for vaporware?"

Not realistic at all, so take a hint, we don't want their kind around here. It's one thing if they are too cheap to pay for his time, it's entirely another if they don't even think his time is worth what he has no trouble charging for it, they just triggered the separation clause in the contract.

"A custom bike is supposed to be something special. and the way one is treated by the builder is step one."

You're really a style over substance guy all the way. Not a criticism.

Seems like a good method for driving away potential future customers, both the ones calling for info, and the ones they talk to after being put off. 3 to 4 calls a week? How hard would it be to reorganize the records for easier and more efficient access? I've found word of mouth and reputation to be critical to a craftsmans livelihood. If you look at any handful of the framebuilders who have a long backlog, you'll usually find customers raving about not only the product, but their personal communications with the builder as well. Sometimes giving a little can bring bring a lot more in return.

Bolds mine.

You will most likely hear that from those who bought a bike. Having done that, they are entitled to builder attention and in all likelihood that is what they get. BG isn't the only good builder to limit contact with the non-paying public, other quality small-volume builders have done the same. Some are demanding non-refundable deposits before taking personal questions to winnow out the less-than-serious. Most have web pages and FAQs to address common questions.

All the non-paying caller does is subtract from time available for the paying customer. If mass sales were the case, then a company can have a customer service and sales staff to field questions. In small outfits, that isn't possible. All this speculation about the value of good customer relations is just so much wind from people who miss the obvious point. BG has customers and he figures he owes them his time over people who aren't customers and show no prospect of becoming customers. If I were thinking of buying one of his bikes, that is what I would not forget.

The OP bought a bike made over two decades ago from a prior owner. He never paid a dime to BG for anything, yet he posts here as if he thinks he is being shorted of time and attention. I think he has got what he paid for. And the consultant chimes in that BG isn't doing right by good customer relations. News flash: OP is not a customer; he intends to buy nothing; he has bought a used bike from someone else. Maybe he should pester the prior owner instead. This nonsense about standing by a product is implying that BG has made some sort of unlimited lifetime guarantee to support his products no matter how many times they change hands. I doubt that is true. And he didn't tell the OP to take a hike, either. He simply told him that if he wanted to take time away from the paying customers, he would have to pay for the privilege. So why the whining? He can pay up or shut up.

[/B]
Bolds mine.

You will most likely hear that from those who bought a bike. Having done that, they are entitled to builder attention and in all likelihood that is what they get. BG isn't the only good builder to limit contact with the non-paying public, other quality small-volume builders have done the same. Some are demanding non-refundable deposits before taking personal questions to winnow out the less-than-serious. Most have web pages and FAQs to address common questions.

All the non-paying caller does is subtract from time available for the paying customer. If mass sales were the case, then a company can have a customer service and sales staff to field questions. In small outfits, that isn't possible. All this speculation about the value of good customer relations is just so much wind from people who miss the obvious point. BG has customers and he figures he owes them his time over people who aren't customers and show no prospect of becoming customers. If I were thinking of buying one of his bikes, that is what I would not forget.


bolds are mine.
who gets a deposit, refundable or not, before taking personal questions?

bolds are mine.
who gets a deposit, refundable or not, before taking personal questions?

Check your mailbox.

Check your mailbox.


got it.
i'm off to race now, so we'll catch up later.

gee - talk about a public hanging yo...


this is all about a second or third hand bicycle frame
that was not even made to order, but batch built, over
24 years ago??! the chinooks were price point frames,
not custom-made-to-order, and you want the guy to
change the book keeping to have easier access to
some generalized information kept in some musty
records in the attic?
hey - bruce can do what he wants, but i think two
decades plus a few is long enough for the statute of
limitations to run out.



see above.
the chinooks were not custom bikes. they were made
down to a price, and in their day, much nicer than
most production frames in the retail stores.



hey - i feel for the OP wrt wanting to fetch some arcane
details about an old bike. all of us keep our records differently
and they are not always within arm's reach. i suggest sending
a sase and a note and ask to have the info forwarded by post
whenever bruce can get into the archives.

Seems to me Jesus (I mean Bruce) could have just said that (in blue) and been done with it (I'm assuming "Have a nice day" would be pushing it).

Seems to me Jesus (I mean Bruce) could have just said that (in blue) and been done with it (I'm assuming "Have a nice day" would be pushing it).


ah - i dunno. he said this:
If people respect my work, then I would hope
people will also have enough respect my time to
realize that it is worth something.
yet folks still fought it. regardless of whether the
goods were made to order or prêt-à-porter, the
records are stashed away and there's a fee to
retrieve them. it was clearly spelled out to the OP,
and folks (!!) still piled on.
e-RICHIE©™®

Aw, shucks, if I lived in Petaluma, CA or somewhat closeby, I would drive over and give Bruce a hand and find those frame specs for free. But, alas, I live in Georgia, sorry...to far. :(

ah - i dunno. he said this:
If people respect my work, then I would hope
people will also have enough respect my time to
realize that it is worth something.
yet folks still fought it. regardless of whether the
goods were made to order or prêt-à-porter, the
records are stashed away and there's a fee to
retrieve them. it was clearly spelled out to the OP,
and folks (!!) still piled on.
e-RICHIE©™®

With all due respects Mr. Sachs, my last post meant that Mr. G could have very easily told the OP that the Chinook was a non-custom frame (which to me implies that there would not even be any individual frame-specific records). It sounded like the OP didn't know anything about the frame, and literally 60 seconds of Mr. G's time could have been all that was necessary.

BTW, nobody here has said anything about not respecting his time. I remember when I was first getting into riding and was all agog over the pro equipment (mostly Campy Nuevo Record then). Sometimes the experts took a few moments to show me something cool or teach me something new; those are the mentors who nurtured me along into a full-blown bike geek with a true love for the sport. The ones who were too busy even to be nice need not be mentioned any further, except for that as I got older and had more money to spend I rarely went to them.

I try to pass my cycling experience along to others as well (hence my involvement in Bike Forums). Perhaps I was overly harsh with Mr. G; if so that was not my intention and I apologize.

I maintain, however, that being nice is never bad for business

Yet another reason why I think BG is AWESOME! I lost most of my records from one of my many relocations, however, I still recognize each frame I have built visually.

DW


For the love of god! Would you stop the incessant ass kissing of framebuilders you want to sell show space to?! Good lord man! :rolleyes:

With all due respects Mr. Sachs, my last post meant that Mr. G could have very easily told the OP that the Chinook was a non-custom frame (which to me implies that there would not even be any individual frame-specific records). It sounded like the OP didn't know anything about the frame, and literally 60 seconds of Mr. G's time could have been all that was necessary.

BTW, nobody here has said anything about not respecting his time. I remember when I was first getting into riding and was all agog over the pro equipment (mostly Campy Nuevo Record then). Sometimes the experts took a few moments to show me something cool or teach me something new; those are the mentors who nurtured me along into a full-blown bike geek with a true love for the sport. The ones who were too busy even to be nice need not be mentioned any further, except for that as I got older and had more money to spend I rarely went to them.

I try to pass my cycling experience along to others as well (hence my involvement in Bike Forums). Perhaps I was overly harsh with Mr. G; if so that was not my intention and I apologize.

I maintain, however, that being nice is never bad for business


we all make frames in small numbers. i, too, have made plenty
of frames whose manufacture has preceded their final destiny. just
because it's made on spec does not mean it's not recorded or
serial numbered.

neither of us know what bruce said to the OP, but we do know what
the OP posted and we do know the incredulity that followed. imo, the
follow-up posts were rife with judgement without having a clue what
transpired. all we know is that BG said he could get the info and there'd
be a fee. BG posted and succinctly explained his point of view but only
after he was called a tool (??!!).

you guys are too much! thanks for the entertainment!!:) :)

guy may be a little jerky, but his bikes and racks look SEX! i may get a rack.:) :) :)

WTF is your problem? Do i KNOW you and you have to hide behind a shallow name only to harrass me?
Why are you chiming in this late in the thread? I have no problem selling space at NAHBS, and at this point, the space sells themselves. I have a proven track record for getting the job done and making the exhibitors and attendees happy. You have a track record of annoying list members and myself, especially, with your less than pithy remarks. Save your time and energy for a bike ride, and dont be a dick.

DW


Dude! Get a life. My past history? Excuse me. You, not me, have a past history of dogging on builders that you don't like and pubbing only yourself and those who buy space at NAHBS. It's self-serving and totally pathetic.

we all make frames in small numbers. i, too, have made plenty
of frames whose manufacture has preceded their final destiny. just
because it's made on spec does not mean it's not recorded or
serial numbered.

neither of us know what bruce said to the OP, but we do know what
the OP posted and we do know the incredulity that followed. imo, the
follow-up posts were rife with judgement without having a clue what
transpired. all we know is that BG said he could get the info and there'd
be a fee. BG posted and succinctly explained his point of view but only
after he was called a tool (??!!).

So should I apologize again..?

So should I apologize again..?
eh, yeah.
that would be cool atmo.
e-RICHIE©™®