In a NOL, if there's no room for a car to safely pass a bicycle, there's no room for a bicycle to safely pass a car in the same lane. For a cyclist to pass on the left and be out of the door zone, the rider would have to be well out into the on-coming lane.

A common misconception about VC is that VC means you have to follow the letter of the law. However, "vehicular cycling requires sound judgment in the application of the principles of driving, not blind compliance with the law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling#.22VC_means_you_have_to_follow_the_letter_of_the_law.22
That entry in Wikipedia is full of Bull. When I get the time, I'm intend to correct that.

The law has to be black and white in order to be able to enforce it objectively. However, the black & white model often does not fit the real world. The decision about whether to mark a road with a striped or double-yellow solid stripe is a good example of this.
Translation: I break the law whenever I want for the sake of my own convience.

Nearly everybody does this. Motorists and cyclists are two peas in a pod, which is what causes all the friction on the road.

While cycling on narrow 2 lane roads, I am often passed by cagers moving across a double-yellow stripe to do so. It would not be safe for them to pass another cager in that situation... hence the double-yellow, but passing a cyclist is really not an issue.
The only reason it's not safe for a car to pass a car on a double yellow is the sight line distance at close to the same relative speed. A bicycle can be passed much more quickly and, as a result, safely, with shorter sight lines.

When there is no room on the right (except for dirt), crossing the double yellow line in order to pass on the left IS riding as far right as practicable!
That's quite a stretch, and that statement would work to justify maneuvering around a road hazard, such as a refrigerator that fell off a truck, but not in passing other vehicles. In fact it's such a stretch, that statement has no credibility in trying to justify illegal passing.

I don't want to behave like a vehicle. Do you?
By the way, vehicles don't obey any laws. Vehicles do not obey, period.
By the definitions of state law my bicycles are vehicles. When riding one, I am a driver.
316.003 Definitions.--The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.
(10) DRIVER.--Any person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle on a highway or who is exercising control of a vehicle or steering a vehicle being towed by a motor vehicle.

This gives me:
316.2065 Bicycle regulations.--

(1) Every person propelling a vehicle by human power has all of the rights and all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under this chapter, except as to special regulations in this chapter, and except as to provisions of this chapter which by their nature can have no application.
(italics mine)

The only two valid options to the scenario presented in the OP are:
1) Wait your turn, in line.
2) Hang a U-turn and take a detour.
Anything else is just, "Ooooh, that's not convient for me," whining and creates more road user friction which begets more whining, and on and on.......

Here is an interesting link from the Washington Area Bicycle Association (WABA). Since the WABA is centered around VA, DC, and MD they have the laws on all three states for passing vehicles. I think it shows a pretty good difference in how states can have various laws regarding this issue.

Selected Bicycle Rules in the Washington Area (http://www.waba.org/new/help/bikelaws.php)

DC requires that you pass left, except when a vehicle is turning left or there are two lanes.
MD requires pass left, except on one way streets or with a left turning vehicle.
VA (probably the broadest of the three) allows passing left OR right, same or change lane, or off road.

Thus to be VC depends on the location you are at, considering I could be perfectly legal in VA passing a stopped vehicle in the same lane as the vehicle (obviously assuming the lane is wide enought for a car and a bicycle to go side by side) but once I enter DC I shouldn't do such if I truly desire to remain VC.

In a NOL, if there's no room for a car to safely pass a bicycle, there's no room for a bicycle to safely pass a car in the same lane. For a cyclist to pass on the left and be out of the door zone, the rider would have to be well out into the on-coming lane.


That entry in Wikipedia is full of Bull. When I get the time, I'm intend to correct that.


Translation: I break the law whenever I want for the sake of my own convience.

Nearly everybody does this. Motorists and cyclists are two peas in a pod, which is what causes all the friction on the road.


The only reason it's not safe for a car to pass a car on a double yellow is the sight line distance at close to the same relative speed. A bicycle can be passed much more quickly and, as a result, safely, with shorter sight lines.


That's quite a stretch, and that statement would work to justify maneuvering around a road hazard, such as a refrigerator that fell off a truck, but not in passing other vehicles. In fact it's such a stretch, that statement has no credibility in trying to justify illegal passing.


By the definitions of state law my bicycles are vehicles. When riding one, I am a driver.
316.003 Definitions.--The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.
(10) DRIVER.--Any person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle on a highway or who is exercising control of a vehicle or steering a vehicle being towed by a motor vehicle.

This gives me:
316.2065 Bicycle regulations.--

(1) Every person propelling a vehicle by human power has all of the rights and all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under this chapter, except as to special regulations in this chapter, and except as to provisions of this chapter which by their nature can have no application.
(italics mine)

The only two valid options to the scenario presented in the OP are:
1) Wait your turn, in line.
2) Hang a U-turn and take a detour.
Anything else is just, "Ooooh, that's not convient for me," whining and creates more road user friction which begets more whining, and on and on.......

Disagree. If the lane is narrow and the cars are stopped, or moving very slowly, then its safe to pass them on the left. Its just like passing parked cars.

For you wannabbee traffic cop nannies out there, if there is no double yellow line, then you can can cross the center line to pass.

Finally, Florida law allows bikes to filter and pass cars by "splitting lanes". The only prohibition in Florida Statutes 316.209 prohibits motorcycles from splitting lanes, not bicycles.

So its perfectly legal to pass cars on the left in Florida.

It seems the consensus is that everyone has no problem breaking the law because waiting in line is an inconvenience. If it were a matter of cutting through a lot, jumping onto the sidewalk, etc. I would agree...that is one of the advantages of riding a bike...but in this situation (well at least the original until John gave us a few more pesky details :p) there is not a safe AND legal way to bypass the line. When we start breaking the law for convenience only, we are no better than any motorist and have no standing to criticize their behavior. Indeed, while you are passing up the line of waiting cars, you are giving each and every driver another reason to not respect cyclists...but we didn't have to wait in line, so wtf.

I remember in the military it was quite legal and accepted for me, as an NCO, to go to the head of the line in the chow hall. But I waited in line - it's called leadership by example. If more of us practiced a little example in regards to following the same laws motorists do, we might not have so many threads b1tching about how we get no respect from motorists.
I generally wait my turn in line. I agree about setting an example, for the most part. But...

For some, waiting in a line of cars for an extended period is more than just an inconvenience. There are valid health reasons for not doing so. There is no "recirculate air" button on my bicycle, and I am already breathing more than my fair share of ozone on smog days, since I'm exercising for over an hour in bad air. Believe me, on some of those smog-alert days, I can feel the sting in my nose and throat, and the next day can be just like a cold or bronchitis if the ozone was really high the day before. Second, the heat is a factor in the summer, I don't want to sit on the hot pavement between motor vehicles which are pumping out extra-heated air. Heat exhaustion can be dangerous, especially when it's in the mid 90's at high humidity.

For a motorist, waiting is just an inconvenience. Waiting for a cyclist can be much more than that.

I think what I would do is get out my walker and shuffle up the street like an old man.

With my touring/commuter bike and 700x38 tires the dirt would be fun. And in my area any mile long line would put me near an alternate route.

John, do any riding on Commercial St at 5PM? I voted wait in line, but sometimes it gets so backed up with traffic, I end up riding on the right. Yeah, I lose patience but I feel silly waiting in the street between two cars...

i have serious doubts about this getting stuck in a mile long backup for the sake of roadway parity.

I don't have parity on the roads and can take advantage of on and offroad travel. Even on the roadway proper, it IS allowed for a bike to 'split', or advance on traffic in a narrow lane, but when a car passes a bike (here in WA) the car is REQUIRED BY LAW to give 3 feet of passing clearance. i can split narrow lanes to a greater degree than cars.

Let's compare a motorist passing a motorist on a double yellow lined road with a motorist passing a cyclist on the same road and a cyclist passing a stopped motorist on the same road.

Motorist passing motorist: passee may be going anywhere from 25-40, passer going 35-60.
Motorist passing cyclist: passee going 10-25, passer going 30+.
Cyclist passing stopped motorist: passee going 0, passer going 5-15.

If no one takes exception to motorists being allowed to cross a double yellow to pass me to save some time, then it would be absurd to expect them to take exception to me passing them to save way more time while executing a far safer pass. As long as you are not pulling this manuever to pass 5 motorists who will be repassing you within 30 seconds then I see no harm in it.

Hmm, isn't it customarily illegal to cross a double yellow line to pass? Is it VC to break the law just because you don't want to wait in line? What would you think if a cager jumped out to pass in this situation?

I suck it up and wait in line, just as I would if I were in my truck.

+1

i didn't even know the double yellow meant a road user could pass...??? is this some new concept???

For some, waiting in a line of cars for an extended period is more than just an inconvenience. There are valid health reasons for not doing so. ..... Second, the heat is a factor in the summer, I don't want to sit on the hot pavement between motor vehicles which are pumping out extra-heated air. Heat exhaustion can be dangerous, especially when it's in the mid 90's at high humidity.

Right. If I was riding home fairly hard 20-25mph in 110-115F typical summer PM commute and had to stop in the full sun for >5min that would be a very serious health hazard to me.
The cooling effect of the 20mph breeze is what allows me to exercise hard in such dry heat.

When it is 115F out asphault surface can be 160F, that and sitting between hot engines can results in 135F+ ambient air temp in the shade - yes I've measured it with my shaded thermometer.

Al

Actually legally, if the center line is solid and a car is behind you, they are legally supposed to not pass you. How often cars actually do that is debatable, I've had a few follow that law, but not many. That is also why if I am in that situation I try to get over near the curb and slow/stop then wave people past, especially when I seem to be slowing traffic up in those situations.

I think what I would do is get out my walker and shuffle up the street like an old man.
:lol:

I was just thinking about how sometimes on the freeway, getting out and walking would be faster...

A common misconception about VC is that VC means you have to follow the letter of the law. However, "vehicular cycling requires sound judgment in the application of the principles of driving, not blind compliance with the law."

That entry in Wikipedia is full of Bull.

The idea that operating vehicularly "requires sound judgment in the application of the principles of driving, not blind compliance with the law" is bull? Then please explain the following...




While cycling on narrow 2 lane roads, I am often passed by cagers moving across a double-yellow stripe to do so. It would not be safe for them to pass another cager in that situation... hence the double-yellow, but passing a cyclist is really not an issue.

The only reason it's not safe for a car to pass a car on a double yellow is the sight line distance at close to the same relative speed. A bicycle can be passed much more quickly and, as a result, safely, with shorter sight lines.

I agree. In normal situations, "a bicycle can be passed much more quickly and, as a result, safely, with shorter sight lines." That's why, even thought it's technically against the law, everyone does it, even cops. It's called "sound judgment in the application of the principles of driving, not blind compliance with the law". Now, if you apply the same kind of sound judgment in the situation described in the OP, a stopped car can be passed by a cyclist much more quickly and, as a result, safely, with shorter sight lines. Also, in both situations the passer does not go nearly as far into the oncoming lane as one must when a car is passing a car. A third situation where sound judgment allows careful crossing of double-yellow when passing is on a 2 lane road when someone stops, say to park, or pick up or drop off a passenger. A car crossing a double-yellow in order to pass a stopped car is often safe and reasonable too, despite being technically against the letter of the law.




I don't want to behave like a vehicle. Do you?
By the way, vehicles don't obey any laws. Vehicles do not obey, period.

By the definitions of state law my bicycles are vehicles. When riding one, I am a driver.

You totally missed my point.
Yes, your bicycle is a vehicle, but YOU are not. YOU do not behave like a vehicle. YOU behave like a DRIVER.

I believe the anthropomorphism of vehicles (that car doesn't see me) is a debilitating notion for cyclists to hold in their minds when riding in traffic, and discourage it whenever I can.

Let's compare a motorist passing a motorist on a double yellow lined road with a motorist passing a cyclist on the same road and a cyclist passing a stopped motorist on the same road.

Motorist passing motorist: passee may be going anywhere from 25-40, passer going 35-60.
Motorist passing cyclist: passee going 10-25, passer going 30+.
Cyclist passing stopped motorist: passee going 0, passer going 5-15.

If no one takes exception to motorists being allowed to cross a double yellow to pass me to save some time, then it would be absurd to expect them to take exception to me passing them to save way more time while executing a far safer pass. As long as you are not pulling this manuever to pass 5 motorists who will be repassing you within 30 seconds then I see no harm in it.
:beer:

My concept of passing includes having somewhere to complete the pass to. Passing a couple of slow pieces of farm equipment when traffic's clear, and pulling back into my lane, sure. Going up the left side (American=the oncoming-traffic side) of a continuous ~3/4-mile-long line of cars on a narrow 2-lane road on blind faith, with no definite landing spot... uh, NO. :rolleyes: If I weren't going to wait in line, I'd at least pick the right side of the road where there won't be oncoming traffic.

*gets out lawnchair, watches the ongoing I-Can-Rationalize-ANYTHING exhibition*

mech... who said there is no definite landing spot?
Obviously if this is a place where everyone stops inches behind the car in front of him, this would not be an option.

But if everyone typically stops with big enough gaps for cyclists to fit, as is the case where I ride, what's the problem?

The general intent of traffic law is to lessen conflicts. The less conflict, the fewer crashes, generally speaking.

Which has fewer conflicts, to filter by slowly on the right, or to weave in and out of stop-and-go traffic, merging left, passing, merging right, being passed, merging left, passing...?

Passing on the right is not an option for those who don't ride their bikes in the dirt.

It also depends on if the 1mi of traffic is full stopped for some non standard reason (like an accident), or moving forward stop and go for each light cycle.
Al

around here dirt means weeds and goatheads. I hate goatheads. more importantly my tires and tubes hate goatheads. so I would be nervous riding on the shoulder but I might try it to get around the line.

You guys are too much. Motorcyclists filter forward on the left, sometimes briefly crossing double yellow stripes to do so, when it's safe and reasonable, all the time. Do car drivers respect motorcyclists any less for doing so? :rolleyes:

As usual you cite your California experiences like they are nationwide - they are not. I have never filtered forward on the left, and I don't see it done anywhere except california and other places that allow lane splitting.


Chipcom asks: "But crossing to where? Yes, there may be gaps in oncoming traffic, but if traffic is backed up in your direction of travel, you gotta merge back in someplace. "

A: Same place a motorcyclist merges back into... in between a couple of cars. What's the problem?

Chipcom asserts: "In essense you are acting like the jerks on the roadways when two lanes merge into one...the ones who fly up past the stopped traffic in one lane, via the other, 'negotiating' (ie. cutting off) for space to merge at the last minute."
I can see what you're saying, but that seems different to me. When a cyclist cuts into a gap on his side, he waits until there is a break in oncoming traffic, then he moves again. At some point he gets to his final destination, and waits there, moving out of the way as soon as reasonably possible after the light turns great. No one is actually held up by even a nanossecond. What's the problem?

Again, where is there a break in a line of cars a mile long? You are thinking of moving traffic...the only gaps in stopped traffic are those folks that ain't paying attention when things start moving, and people definitely DON'T appreciate those, on a bike, in a car or otherwise, or rush up the open lane and try to cut into those openings.

HH, sometimes I swear that you don't drive or ride, because I don't remember Cali being THAT different. You never see bad drivers, make gaps where there are no gaps..etc., etc, etc. I think I asked this once before, but you didn't answer...what color is the sky in your world?

If you are the vehicle, who is driving?

I am the driver, I am the vehicle, I am the engine, and, yes

I AM THE EGG MAN!!!!

Chip, you might want get off your bike, slowly and carefully, and get a saddle on that post (after you clean it with bleach!) before you try to sit down on it again... :eek:

You are arguing, militaristically, that the letter of the law is more important than the underlying principles and the spirit of the law. I think you've got it backwards.

As long as one is behaving in accordance with the underlying principles and the spirit of the law, I don't care what the reason is for them breaking the letter of the law.

In this case, the double yellow line and corresponding law is there obviously to prevent head on collisions, usually because traffic engineers have determined that sight lines or distance to the next intersection is too short to allow for safe passing by cagers. When a bicyclist or motorcyclist briefly crosses the double yellow line in an OP-like situation, or where even a cager briefly crosses the double-yellow line in order to pass a cyclist (a point you keep ignoring), these are special cases that would over-complicate the law to account for them. In the end, there must be some room for reasonable judgment in our system.

If you cross a double yellow line, and a crash results, it's clearly your fault. If there is no double yellow line, it's not as clear. It's on you, the double yellow crosser, to be darn sure that what you're doing is safe and reasonable.

It's a matter of following the letter of the law, or being reasonable and practical. I have police officers routinely cross double yellows as they pass me out of convenience, rather than waiting their turn behind the slow moving vehicle in front of them...


Tis a shame you can't see the difference between the 'letter of the law', which is not the issue, and common sense and courtesy, that is the issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe riding in the dirt (or gravel) off the road on the right shoulder is illegal.

Not for a bicycle, I believe.

BUSTED! :eek: Guilty as charged. :o

To clarify more, I would not classify this road as either rural or urban. It's not out in the sticks, but it's not downtown. It's mixed use zoning, both homes and businesses clustered along the road with woods behind them. It's about 4 miles from its termination in a small town at each end. The speed limit is 35 MPH (I think), and most people keep it under 50. The traffic volume tends to be grouped by the light cycles.

I chose not to use the dirt shoulder because it was fairly loose dirt, with stones of varying sizes distributed unevenly. I probably would have had to stay under 12 to do it, and it would have been very bumpy and unpleasant. I estimate my speed passing on the left was around 16. (I didn't have a computer to know for sure.)

There are a few slightly-longer alternatives, but from where the jam started, it would have taken me at least as long to pedal back to pick up one of them as it would have to wait in line, if not longer. "Yea, more riding!" you might say, but my family expects me home for supper.

I am concerned about both the safety and the example being set. Even apart from being so close to oncoming traffic, one of the cars in the line could certainly have pulled out to the left at any time, for a U-turn maybe, without expecting or looking for anyone passing. And I think Chip has a valid point about annoying motorists, and I'm not convinced that all motorists would be okay with motorcycles doing the same thing, especially if they were on or across the double-yellow to do it. At the same time, I don't think all motorists would mind, even if some would.

I guess for me, in the end, the misgivings about safety and example were outweighed by the desire to not be held up. I freely admit it. But obviously I still don't feel certain that it was the right choice by all possible standards.


That's what I like about you John, you're an honest man. :)

You've been around my area (sorry never got a chance to reply to your note), you could have run into this situation in many places around here...no shoulder, narrow lane, long line of traffic waiting at a light. You can ride up the dirt on the right and nobody really cares, but if you start filtering up the left (oncoming traffic lane), ducking in and out of the line in the process, you're gonna have a bad day, if you survive it without becoming a hood ornament.

The law has to be black and white in order to be able to enforce it objectively. However, the black & white model often does not fit the real world. The decision about whether to mark a road with a striped or double-yellow solid stripe is a good example of this.
Suddenly HH is the master of the gray area. :rolleyes:

Even in a NOL, unless we're talking about tires right up to the curb, you can skip by on the right still on pavement. You can't ride full steam ahead, but you can fit through. And should traffic start going again you won't be left high and dry out in no-mans lane balancing on the center line while motorists refuse to let you back in (because after all, they think, you deserve to be left hanging out there for your dumbass move).

If you should stay in line and do no passing, you won't have these problems. But you also won't get to enjoy the main benefit of riding a bike: freedom from traffic jams!

For some, waiting in a line of cars for an extended period is more than just an inconvenience. There are valid health reasons for not doing so. There is no "recirculate air" button on my bicycle, and I am already breathing more than my fair share of ozone on smog days, since I'm exercising for over an hour in bad air. Believe me, on some of those smog-alert days, I can feel the sting in my nose and throat, and the next day can be just like a cold or bronchitis if the ozone was really high the day before. Second, the heat is a factor in the summer, I don't want to sit on the hot pavement between motor vehicles which are pumping out extra-heated air. Heat exhaustion can be dangerous, especially when it's in the mid 90's at high humidity.

For a motorist, waiting is just an inconvenience. Waiting for a cyclist can be much more than that.

Now that is a very valid point. I just luvvvvvvvv the smell of exhaust in the morning!

John, do any riding on Commercial St at 5PM? I voted wait in line, but sometimes it gets so backed up with traffic, I end up riding on the right. Yeah, I lose patience but I feel silly waiting in the street between two cars...

I like it when I am behind some cute gal that I can play peek-a-boo with in her mirror. :p

Actually legally, if the center line is solid and a car is behind you, they are legally supposed to not pass you. How often cars actually do that is debatable, I've had a few follow that law, but not many. That is also why if I am in that situation I try to get over near the curb and slow/stop then wave people past, especially when I seem to be slowing traffic up in those situations.

Here is the big flaw in my otherwise impeccable and eloquently stated position. Motorists sometimes DO avoid crossing the double yellow to pass a cyclist, often cutting things a bit too close for comfort in the process, which ticks us off, all because of a painted line. Someone else pointed out the sight distance issue, which is valid...they can get around a bike faster than another motor vehicle in most cases.

My problem really isn't with the double yellow...though it was a convenient issue to point out how VC isn't as VC as it thinks it is. :p The issue is example, courtesy and physical reality. Sure you might have a clear path to move to the left, oncoming traffic lane, to pass, but where are you going to jump back into line without pissing off some motorist? Granted, some folks will be nice enough to let you in, but over the last 40 years or so it seems that more and more folks ain't so nice and tolerant of those of us who bend or break the rules in an effort not to share their misery.

mech... who said there is no definite landing spot?
Obviously if this is a place where everyone stops inches behind the car in front of him, this would not be an option.

But if everyone typically stops with big enough gaps for cyclists to fit, as is the case where I ride, what's the problem?

Again, what color is the sky in your world? Where is this place were cars stopped in a long line leave lots of room between themselves and the person in front of them and don't mind people cutting in front of them? I bet they all get out of their cars, sing songs and take warm showers together too. :rolleyes:

I'd walk the bike.

If the backed up traffic is moving slower than walking speed on average, then I'd dismount and walk the bike on the shoulder, as a pedestrian.

If the traffic is moving faster than walking speed, then I'd stay in line.

I've experienced this situation in urban areas in narrow lanes at places where congestion or railroad crossings broght traffic to a standstill for a long time. I just walked the bike on the sidewalk to the place where I could leave the traffic situation.

-Steve Goodridge

It seems the consensus is that everyone has no problem breaking the law because waiting in line is an inconvenience. If it were a matter of cutting through a lot, jumping onto the sidewalk, etc. I would agree...that is one of the advantages of riding a bike...but in this situation (well at least the original until John gave us a few more pesky details :p) there is not a safe AND legal way to bypass the line. When we start breaking the law for convenience only, we are no better than any motorist and have no standing to criticize their behavior. Indeed, while you are passing up the line of waiting cars, you are giving each and every driver another reason to not respect cyclists...but we didn't have to wait in line, so wtf.

I remember in the military it was quite legal and accepted for me, as an NCO, to go to the head of the line in the chow hall. But I waited in line - it's called leadership by example. If more of us practiced a little example in regards to following the same laws motorists do, we might not have so many threads b1tching about how we get no respect from motorists.

Well you have convinced me. I can't change my vote in this poll, but I have changed my mind. I also don't like the idea of special favors, but I sure would find another way to get out of a mile-long traffic jam. Unless it's on a bridge or overpass there should be a parallel route.

As usual you cite your California experiences like they are nationwide - they are not. I have never filtered forward on the left, and I don't see it done anywhere except california and other places that allow lane splitting.
Hey, the OP asks, what would each of us do. Well, what I would do is based on where I live. Duh.


Again, where is there a break in a line of cars a mile long? You are thinking of moving traffic...the only gaps in stopped traffic are those folks that ain't paying attention when things start moving, and people definitely DON'T appreciate those, on a bike, in a car or otherwise, or rush up the open lane and try to cut into those openings.
No, I'm not thinking of moving traffic. I'm thinking of traffic stopped at any red light. Most people don't stop directly behind the car in front of them leaving no gap. Some people do, sure. But not all. And if you're stuck in traffic, you can easily pull out left, look ahead, see that there is a gap, and move up to it. I've never been in a situation like that where I couldn't find a gap to get back in. Not even close.


HH, sometimes I swear that you don't drive or ride, because I don't remember Cali being THAT different. You never see bad drivers, make gaps where there are no gaps..etc., etc, etc. I think I asked this once before, but you didn't answer...what color is the sky in your world?
Blue, almost every day.

How do you explain the disparity in the bad driver poll?

Here is the big flaw in my otherwise impeccable and eloquently stated position. Motorists sometimes DO avoid crossing the double yellow to pass a cyclist, often cutting things a bit too close for comfort in the process, which ticks us off, all because of a painted line. Someone else pointed out the sight distance issue, which is valid...they can get around a bike faster than another motor vehicle in most cases.

My problem really isn't with the double yellow...though it was a convenient issue to point out how VC isn't as VC as it thinks it is. :p The issue is example, courtesy and physical reality. Sure you might have a clear path to move to the left, oncoming traffic lane, to pass, but where are you going to jump back into line without pissing off some motorist? Granted, some folks will be nice enough to let you in, but over the last 40 years or so it seems that more and more folks ain't so nice and tolerant of those of us who bend or break the rules in an effort not to share their misery.


Actually I meant I have had a car slow down and ride along behind me on a solid center line (I was riding near the right of the lane w/ no oncoming traffic on the other side of the centerline). Like I said before at that point I normally find a convient place to pull off to the side and wave them through (better to be nice than annoy someone in a vehicle that could hurt me :D ).

One of the advantages of riding a motorcycle or bicycle in traffic is you can ride through congestion when drivers of cars and trucks are stopped. There is no shame in using that advantage. In fact, I think it's kind of silly not to, especially since doing so does not cause anyone to have to wait any longer (so the courtesy argument fails there).

As for Chip's leadership by example argument, that's silly too. In a mess line, anyone who takes cuts is delaying everyone behind the point where he cuts in. That is not the case for cyclists (or motorcyclists) cutting in line. When the light turns green, the motorcyclists accelerate ahead, and the cyclists move aside, and everyone else moves just as they would if the *cyclists had not been there at all.

I'd walk the bike.

If the backed up traffic is moving slower than walking speed on average, then I'd dismount and walk the bike on the shoulder, as a pedestrian.

If the traffic is moving faster than walking speed, then I'd stay in line.

Another common sense answer, thanks Steve.

Well you have convinced me. I can't change my vote in this poll, but I have changed my mind. I also don't like the idea of special favors, but I sure would find another way to get out of a mile-long traffic jam. Unless it's on a bridge or overpass there should be a parallel route.

Rood, the world is gonna end now because you and I kinda agree on something. :D

One of the advantages of riding a motorcycle or bicycle in traffic is you can ride through congestion when drivers of cars and trucks are stopped. There is no shame in using that advantage. In fact, I think it's kind of silly not to, especially since doing so does not cause anyone to have to wait any longer (so the courtesy argument fails there).

As for Chip's leadership by example argument, that's silly too. In a mess line, anyone who takes cuts is delaying everyone behind the point where he cuts in. That is not the case for cyclists (or motorcyclists) cutting in line. When the light turns green, the motorcyclists accelerate ahead, and the cyclists move aside, and everyone else moves just as they would if the *cyclists had not been there at all.

Of course we knew that you'd poo-poo leadership by example. I won't even comment further, this wackiness of this latest post should be evident to everyone on its own.

I won't even comment further, this wackiness of this latest post should be evident to everyone on its own.
What a punt! In other words, you concede my point.

Demonstrating to motorists stuck in their cages the advantages of using bicycles for commuting - including riding passed congested sections - is good leadership. It's good bicycling advocacy. And, when done with due diligence, can be done very safely, respectfully and courteously.

What a punt! In other words, you concede my point.

Demonstrating to motorists stuck in their cages the advantages of using bicycles for commuting - including riding passed congested sections - is good leadership. It's good bicycling advocacy. And, when done with due diligence, can be done very safely, respectfully and courteously.

You are so full of it sometimes, Serge. While demonstrating the advantages of cycling is indeed a good thing, ticking them off and feeding their perception of cyclists as law-breakers isn't. You keep trying to apply what is legal and/or accepted in California to the world as a whole, and that dawg don't hunt.

As far as your analogy between the chow line, a motorcyclist and a bicycle...read it a few times...your logic is flawed. But, that isn't anything new around here, is it.

When the light turns green... the cyclists move aside, and everyone else moves just as they would if the cyclists had not been there at all.
(--Aside: not true for motorcyclists because they deserve at least the same amount of space as a car fore and aft and thus are not able to fall into an "as though they had not been there at all" scenario.)

I've made this point to myself in my head. It seems that drivers don't want to see us move up ahead, even though to do so actually provides them greater benefit than if we stayed in line. It's like they get jealous and mad or something when really we are doing them a favor by getting out of the way, getting on with it, or however you want to think about it.

It's like, what would they rather see? Yet one more car they have to wait behind or some guy who is pretty much not even there at all as far as the big long line of traffic is concerned? They want it both ways. They want us to do perfect adherence to the rules of the road, then gad mad when we do because then we're taking up space. But when we do stuff that lets us scoot away from backed up traffic or otherwise makes it so they don't have to be delayed, they also get mad. We just can't win.

As for Chip's leadership by example argument, that's silly too. In a mess line, anyone who takes cuts is delaying everyone behind the point where he cuts in. That is not the case for cyclists (or motorcyclists) cutting in line. When the light turns green, the motorcyclists accelerate ahead, and the cyclists move aside, and everyone else moves just as they would if the *cyclists had not been there at all.

To take the other side for a bit, and to demonstrate the difference between California and the Northeast, on the roads where I've encountered this sort of thing, the road is not wide enough to just let me move over when traffic catches up. I would rather pass slowly on the right than slowly on the left so if there was room on the right for me to move into after the backup, then I probably would have been using that room to pass on the right before the intersection (assuming same road width before and after intersection). Not that I advocate passing on the right all the time (I'll split same direction lanes of traffic before I'll filter on the right), but when done properly, it's pretty safe and can be less of a hassle then having to stop and move over for oncoming traffic. So, while I still would filter on the left in my example, people would have to deal with repassing me and wouldn't necessarily be happy about it. That's why I brought up the point that it has to be a significant backup before I'll consider doing this.

Passing on the right is not an option for those who don't ride their bikes in the dirt.
Of course, choosing your options is very situational and you have to do what you are most comfortable with given your level of experience, the type of bike you ride, and the traffic/weather conditions, etc. I just don't feel comfortable with sharing a lane on the left side.

I don't want to behave like a vehicle. Do you?

Rood, the world is gonna end now because you and I kinda agree on something. :D

Wow, I'm feeling such a sense of accomplishment with this thread. Whoever thought we'd ever hear these two statements uttered from these people? :D

mech... who said there is no definite landing spot?
Obviously if this is a place where everyone stops inches behind the car in front of him, this would not be an option.

But if everyone typically stops with big enough gaps for cyclists to fit, as is the case where I ride, what's the problem?If I stop one car-length back from another person's vehicle or bike, it's because I want one car-length of space between me and the next person ahead of me. You're not welcome in that space. I left it there as a safety buffer, and I don't expect, desire or approve of people randomly coming up on my left and then attempting to wedge their vehicle into it as if I were trying to save them a spot in line. Not a motorcycle, not a bicycle, not a car, not a motor scooter.

And that's not even addressing the rudeness of taking cuts in lines. With or without a vehicle, in a grocery store or at the movies or on a road, taking cuts in a line makes people irate. If you're not able to ride on the dirt shoulder, roll or shoulder your bike and walk. Or just deal with waiting in line like the other human beings are doing.

Speaking of taking cuts in line: Satan goes to see a movie and cuts in front of Jesus Christ. Jesus replies "Get thee behind me, Satan."

Probably worked better as a cartoon. ;)

Have a good and safe weekend everyone, holiday weekend those in the US!

I don't want to behave like a vehicle. Do you?

Whoever thought we'd ever hear these two statements uttered from these people?

Do you think my statement is inconsistent with anything else I've ever said?

I think I've been consistently advocating acting like a DRIVER of a vehilce, not acting like a vehicle (which is nonsense). I even added a section about the difference in the Wikipedia article on vehicular cycling.

........Now, if you apply the same kind of sound judgment in the situation described in the OP, a stopped car can be passed by a cyclist much more quickly and, as a result, safely, with shorter sight lines........

Right, but we're not talking about passing a single stopped car, now are we? The discussion on this thread is about passing a mile of stopped cars, in a NOL, with a traffic light at the end. As has already been established, passing in a NOL means leaving the lane. Either off the road to the right or pass on the left. Passing on the left with enough space to be out of the door zone puts the cyclist in the on-coming lane, wandering like a lost puppy, hoping to find someone nice enough to let the cyclist back in the right lane in case of on-coming traffic. Passing while riding the line puts the cyclist right in the door zone in a NOL and very close to the on-coming lane. How rediculously unsafe is that?

Now, some of the replies to this thread are good ones:
Take an alternate route.
Ride the road shoulder if on a suitable bike.
Get off the bike and walk until traffic clears enough to ride.
Find somewhere to just stop, get a cup of coffee, and wait.

I used to have a light on my old commuting route on Okinawa that, not uncommonly, fit this description to a T, except that there was no rideable shoulder at all. Sometimes I took an alternate route, sometimes I took my place in line and waited 5 or more light cycles. I sometimes saw cyclists that would pass on the right (Okinawa), but there is no way that was the safe thing to do, riding into on-coming traffic with nowhere to go but down.

Adding to the safety of waiting is the respect on the road from motorists that see me not jumping the line, but waiting my turn right along with them and there is no reason for me to not wait or ride miles out of my way on an alternate route.