I am probably nuts for saying this, but I don't think I would worry too much about the door zone on the driver's side in a long line of cars inching their way toward a stop sign a mile away. I wouldn't be riding over there in this scenario, but I just can't see anybody getting out of their car in such a situation. Maybe on the passenger side, but not on the driver's side.

I am probably nuts for saying this, but I don't think I would worry too much about the door zone on the driver's side in a long line of cars inching their way toward a stop sign a mile away. I wouldn't be riding over there in this scenario, but I just can't see anybody getting out of their car in such a situation. Maybe on the passenger side, but not on the driver's side.

Maybe, but on a four door car there's three passenger doors. Ever play "Fire Drill"? Or open the door just to spit something out? Ever see a driver get out and stand to try to see what's ahead?

I guarantee none of these people think to look behind them for a passing bicycle in this situation.

I would probably wait in line, catch my breath, and drink some water. Maybe strike up conversation with the driver in front of or behind me, if appropriate. Walk the bike on the right-hand side or read a book if the traffic is that slow.

HelmetHead, I usually agree with you when you advocate riding courteously and vehicularly so as to model responsible cycling for all observing drivers. (E.g., see thread, "Have YOU 'trained' any motorists?') In this case, I think you would make a bad model by cutting in line. I agree with mech: if I'm driving and I leave one car-length in front of me, that's my space. If it looks like I'm going to be rear-ended (unlikely in heavy traffic, unless I'm at the back of the line, but still a consideration), I'm prepared to fill that space to save my bumper. If a cyclist fills that space, just because he can, as far as I'm concerned he's stealing my space and he's also going to delay me when traffic starts up again because I'll have to wait for him to clear that space.

If the lane is too narrow for a cyclist to pass cars on the right without riding in the dirt, it's also too narrow when traffic starts moving again for a cyclist, after having cut in line, to "move aside, and everyone else moves just as they would if the *cyclists had not been there at all".

In other words, if you cut in line, you're stealing other cars' space, you're delaying them when they start up again (thus most likely causing at least one car to miss the light), and if traffic does lighten up ahead, they're going to pass you again, this time with much less reason to respect you and give you due space and courtesy. Plus, what Chip said about cutting in line. Not only rude, but also modeling "I want to save maybe 30 seconds because I'm in such a hurry to get where I'm going, so I'm going to pass you rather than wait my turn in line like everybody else."

BTW, for those of you who defend cutting in line in this situation (unlike JohnBrooking who at least admits his hypocrisy), I'm curious what you would do in this situation:

You're in a grocery store, and the checkout lines are long, and there are no express lines, and everyone has full carts, but you just want to buy some toothpaste and pay cash. Would you cut in line? Without asking permission? (Assume, for the sake of analogy, that you need this toothpaste and can't leave the store without getting it.)

BTW, for those of you who defend cutting in line in this situation (unlike JohnBrooking who at least admits his hypocrisy), I'm curious what you would do in this situation:

You're in a grocery store, and the checkout lines are long, and there are no express lines, and everyone has full carts, but you just want to buy some toothpaste and pay cash. Would you cut in line? Without asking permission? (Assume, for the sake of analogy, that you need this toothpaste and can't leave the store without getting it.)
Totally different. In that case while the checker is serving you the others you cut in front of have to wait that much longer.

Maybe, but on a four door car there's three passenger doors. Ever play "Fire Drill"? Or open the door just to spit something out? Ever see a driver get out and stand to try to see what's ahead?

I guarantee none of these people think to look behind them for a passing bicycle in this situation.
If I was a passenger and wanted to get out I would get out on the passenger side even with 4 doors. I'd just slide over. It would be silly for a passenger to get out on the driver's side, unless we're talking about a situation where the traffic isn't moving at all, like when there's an accident or something.

Actually, I'd worry about dooring too. Although I must say that even though the driver wouldn't check his mirrors for a passing bicycle, he might for passing cars - I mean, cagers do pull these sorts of stunts sometimes and other cagers know that they do. However, if they are opening the door just to spit something out or to empty their ashtray - the probably won't check for that...

Wow, interesting poll results! 30% will wait in line! They've got a lot of patience, that's for sure. :)

i pass long lines of stopped drivers ....in the oppossing lane with disregard at drawbridges and those types of tings, cut up to the front of the line, and i hope it gets the drivers all hot under the collar. I hope it gets them even more frustrated at driving.

Heck, i hope it gets them flustered regardless, if I'm passing on or off the road - on the shoulder, splitting the lane, or in the oppossing lane.

A MILE long backup? Please, a cyclist would be an awfully nervous nellie or a strict adherer to 'same rights, same rules' philosophy to wait in line at a mile long backup. Pass the cars. Pass the cars. Pass the cars.

BTW, for those of you who defend cutting in line in this situation (unlike JohnBrooking who at least admits his hypocrisy), I'm curious what you would do in this situation:

You're in a grocery store, and the checkout lines are long, and there are no express lines, and everyone has full carts, but you just want to buy some toothpaste and pay cash. Would you cut in line? Without asking permission? (Assume, for the sake of analogy, that you need this toothpaste and can't leave the store without getting it.)
Totally different. In that case while the checker is serving you the others you cut in front of have to wait that much longer.

Different? Of course; it's an analogy. Totally different? I don't think so. Let me spell out and idealize each scenario for the sake of simple comparison.

In the grocery store, you cut 7 shoppers in line, and, with exact change in hand, pay for your toothpaste in 8 seconds.

Total delay caused by you: 7 shoppers x 8 seconds = 56 shopper-seconds or about 1 shopper-minute.

On the backed-up road, you cut in front of 60 cars, and, when you start up again, cause the car behind you (and consequently the 59 cars behind it) to wait one extra second before starting, so as not to run you over or dangerously tailgate you. With the bumper-to-bumper traffic, 20 cars, or 19 cars and one bike, are able to make it through each traffic-light cycle in your direction. (The 20th car, which without your one-second delay would have made it through the intersection on yellow, or squeezed through on fresh red, now has to stop and wait for the next cycle.) So the 20th, 40th, and 60th cars are each delayed by the duration of the traffic-light cycle, which is, say, 3 minutes.

Delay caused by you: 57 drivers x 1 second = 57 driver-seconds
Delay caused by stoplight because of you: 3 drivers x 3 minutes = 9 driver-minutes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total delay caused by you, directly or indirectly: 57 driver-seconds plus 9 driver-minutes = about 10 driver-minutes.

In addition, the 19 drivers behind you who made it through the same traffic-light cycle as you did, will now want to pass you again when traffic clears up. On a narrow road, as described by the OP, this may be inconvenient or dangerous, and they may just have to be further delayed by you because of your decision to pass them rudely and illegally at the stoplight. Depending on how long you stay on that road, the other 41 drivers might eventually want to pass you again as well, encountering the same potential inconvenience and/or delay for the same stupid reason.

So: By cutting in line at the grocery store, you would have delayed 7 people by a total of 1 minute. By cutting in line in traffic, you would have delayed 60 people by a total of 10 minutes, not to mention any further delay and inconvenience incurred by any of them in passing you (or waiting to pass you) again once traffic clears up.

Of course, you can plug in different numbers and the results will be different. It might even be 2 minutes total versus 2 minutes total.

But I think the key difference between the two scenarios is this: In the grocery store, you probably wouldn't dare to cut everyone in line, and if you did, the checker might not let you then check out. In traffic, if you cut in front of cars waiting in line at a stoplight, you can get away with it. Either way, you are acting rudely and causing many people to be delayed, rather than waiting your turn in line like all of them are doing.

So, for those people who would pass the cars in line, the operative question seems to be not "How rude would it be?" or "How many people will I delay/inconvenience and for how long?", but "Can I get away with it?"

I'll wait my turn in line and model common courtesy and respect. You do as you like.

the operative question is, "How expediently can i blow past this mile long backup of gashuffers?"

...which is saying the same thing in different words.

the operative question is, "How expediently can i blow past this mile long backup of gashuffers?"...who are trying to pick their kid up from daycare on time, get to the hospital to see how Dad's doing after his surgery, or make it to their favorite LBS to buy an LD-1000 before it closes ;)

NOT the same question at all - sorry, Mark.

Did anyone else notice how the "wait in line" option has slowly been gaining ground on the "ride around" options in comparison to the early votes? Apparently the line waiters are just now showing up! :lol:

NOT the same question at all - sorry, Mark.

No? Perhaps I misunderstood your question. Help me out.

Both questions, to me, indicate a primary concern with one's own expediency and little or no concern with the people ("gashuffers", if you will, but people all the same) at whose expense you achieve that expediency.

Did I miss something?

Rood, the world is gonna end now because you and I kinda agree on something. :D
I'm sure we agree on lots, and you'll always be my favorite troll.

Again it one of those 'ya gotta be there to know' situations. To see how the line is moving and to see exactly what kind of space and on coming traffic is to the left.
A line for a traffic light it totally different than backed up for a situation.
The former I'd much more likely wait in line as the line is actually moving, even if slow. But if a "traffic jam a mile long before the light" as I read the description, I'd want to move forward otherwise I could be there for a very long time not moving at all.
Al

Has anybody bothered to find out if the drivers give a darn whether we wait in line or go up to the front? I haven't heard of anybody who would care, most especially if we were talking about a situation of a mile long line of stop-and-go waiting. So long as you weren't causing them delay, more power to ya, is what I'd imagine they would be thinking.

Good point, Diane. If I were driving I wouldn't care if a cyclist passed. As long as they weren't actin' the fool about it.:)

If more of us practiced a little example in regards to following the same laws motorists do, we might not have so many threads b1tching about how we get no respect from motorists.

Amen!

I "take the lane" when I feel conditions require it for my safety (often). But I always take the responsibility of following the rules of the road.

I'm VC. But I never beligerantly hold up a line of traffic simply because I can ride down the center of a lane. I'll pull over when its safe and let traffic slip by.

I was waiting in a line of cars (with my bike) at the construction zone at 29th and Southeast a couple weeks ago. Here came a cyclist on my right. Does he get in line? No, he moves up the right side until the space runs out at the construction cones, then squeezes through the line of cars, over onto the left sidewalk, rides up to the stoplight, comes back out into the road and plants himself at the front of the line. Just what we needed, a typical slow-launching cyclist to jump the line and then hold them up for the next two blocks. Thanks, guy, that's just the public-relations boost we needed.

Okay, marcm, here's another analogy.
You walk into a restroom to go "no. 1" and see there's a line for the toilets, but a uniral is available. Do you get in line, or go to the uniral? Of course you don't wait in line for the toilets that you don't need.

In a grocery store, everyone is waiting for the same resource: time with the cashier. So we take our turn.

But in a men's room, there are two main resources: toilets and unirals.

The situation in traffic is closer to that of the men's room than the grocery store. Car drivers need the toilets, while motorcyclists and bicyclists only need the unirals... why should they stand in line for the toilets?

i doubt urinals, motorcycles, and bicycles have much in common. thats a pisspoor example of roadway dynamics.


maybe its more like downhill skiing. the cars are big fat gapers that cant' ski the sides of the hills or go thru the trees, and are slow and unresponsive. they get in big clusters on the main part of the ski hill. the bicyclists are more like snowboarders, who can go along the edges of the ski hill, thru the trees AND the slow cars, that are more like trees to the snowboarder. and everyone is on the same, identical ski hill.

how the motorcyclist gets onto the ski hill is a slippery slope, indeed.

The situation in traffic is closer to that of the men's room than the grocery store. Car drivers need the toilets, while motorcyclists and bicyclists only need the unirals... why should they stand in line for the toilets?
What would I do? I do it on the road!

...who are trying to pick their kid up from daycare on time, get to the hospital to see how Dad's doing after his surgery, or make it to their favorite LBS to buy an LD-1000 before it closes ;)

You have the list order backwards.... The light is always first.

I know the truth ! :)

If i can filter at a stop, and then, on a typical 25-45 mph laned roadway, advance a full half to full city block or more ahead of the line of stopped cars once the light changes, why should i wait? some lofty visions of vehicular parity?

no, thanks. no uneccessary exhaust huffing. i'll pass the cars. pass the cars. pass the cars. the bicyclists' safety and expediency first, drivers' conveinence second.


isn't this thread about passing a mile long backup of cars, either splitting the lane on the left and dicing the yellows, or riding on the dirt shoulder, or waiting in line?

pass the cars, pass the cars, pass the cars

What about after one, either soon or later, clears the intersection? Will that 1mi long line of cars be unable to pass you because the road remains a NOL with a double yellow centerline? Will that continue for the next 10mi?

As I said above, despite with the description of the scenario, one really needs to be there and more than just once.
Generally when I am on a bike (or even car) in a new situation I take the wait and see approach. So if I come across a long line of cars I will always wait in line and assess what is going on. If it is the very first time I have ever been thru the intersection and traffic was (slowly but steadily) moving forward I would likely wait in line. But if this was my every day commute, I'd know the intersection and typical dynamics and what was in store once I cleared the intersection very well and would know what I could and could not do safely and without creating a very rude situation. Likely this may be passing on the left, hopping over groups of cars, but if those groups will then be truely stuck behind me later (and I'd have to have been thru the interection before to know this), I would likely not do this.
Another example is perhaps the 1mi line is 'cause 90% of the drivers want to turn left at the intersection ahead and there is a short left turn lane and a short left light cycle, but I want to go straight. Then passing on left (and getting back in flow well before left turn lane) doesn't cause any trouble for anyone. (although a short left turn period implies that there is a fair amount of oncoming traffic) But again to know this and to know where to cut back in line can only be known if I had done this a few times before.
Al

So: By cutting in line at the grocery store, you would have delayed 7 people by a total of 1 minute. By cutting in line in traffic, you would have delayed 60 people by a total of 10 minutes, not to mention any further delay and inconvenience incurred by any of them in passing you (or waiting to pass you) again once traffic clears up. This calculation uses some bad assumption, in my humble. For one thing, you're assuming all those drivers who are now stuck at the light are going to pass you and be delayed while doing so. That means that:

- they are all going same direction as you
- the road will remain narrow and make it difficult to pass you (not clear, since the traffic from the other direction has been described as moderate)
- the jam will clear up before you reach your destination. :D

Not likely.

But even more importantly, regardless of what the calculations show, if you insist that cyclists should not pass slower cars (a stopped car is included in the definition) than cars shouldn't pass slower cyclists at all! Isn't that cutting in line as well? After all, if there is another jam down the road and the drivers all pass the cyclist, they get ahead of him in the line and now cause him unreasonable delay!

(And, ahem, doesn't anybody consider spewing out clouds of smelly and toxic exhaust just to haul one's lazy ass around rude... to put it mildly?..)

What about after one, either soon or later, clears the intersection? Will that 1mi long line of cars be unable to pass you because the road remains a NOL with a double yellow centerline? Will that continue for the next 10mi?

As I said above, despite with the description of the scenario, one really needs to be there and more than just once. Al wrote a lot of good stuff. If a cyclist really knows that the line will get moving soon and all those cars will have to pass him, he will probably not even want to go to the front. Having a train of pissed off cagers on your tail in a NOL, honking and trying to pass you unsafely, is not what most cyclists think of as fun. If the cyclist knows that's what's going to happen, he'll likely stay in line for his own comfort and safety.

However, if he knows that the cars are truly stuck for good, or that most of them aren't going the same place he's going, or the road widens - pass the cars, pass the cars, pass the cars. :)

Very sensible, Al. Yes, it depends on the specifics. I assumed that by passing the cars, you'd delay them at least when they start up again, if not later on. Depending on the nature of the intersection, that might not necessarily be true.

Chephy, you misunderstood the relation between my 60 people / 10 minutes calculation, and the supposition that some of the motorists might want to pass you after the intersection and would be delayed doing so. There is no relation. If none of them wind up passing or trying to pass you, there will be a total of 10 minutes delay (based on my assumptions). If any of them wind up passing or trying to pass you after the intersection, that's additional delay/inconvenience.

HelmetHead, your men's-room analogy only fits if you do not cause any delay to the drivers you pass. It seems to me that's only possible if the driver behind you tailgates you, or if they were dozing off anyway and would have wound up leaving an unnecessarily large amount of space in front of them, were you not there.

You and chephy don't seem to realize (or acknowledge) the difference between passing a slower-moving vehicle in traffic, and passing a stopped vehicle at (e.g.) a stoplight. In the former case, there is vacant space ahead of them, which you fill. They have no claim whatsoever to that space. In the latter case, there is (as I see it) no vacant space ahead of them. Whatever space they leave, while stopped, between their car and the car in front of them, is their space -- not "available" space for you to fill.

(To put it another way, there are two reasons why, no matter what sort of vehicle you're operating, it's bad to cut someone off -- i.e. to pass in front of them without leaving enough space. One, it's dangerous -- they might have to hit their brakes to avoid a crash. Two, the space in front of them is their space -- a sort of safety buffer -- and should not be occupied by anyone unless absolutely necessary. To cut them off is bad because it's dangerous and you're stealing their space. To cut in front of a car stopped in line at a stoplight is bad because you're stealing their space. What do you guys do when you're in line for a movie? Look for a gap in the line and fill it? I doubt it, but it seems to me that you would be doing effectively the same thing in the traffic-light scenario -- cutting in line and filling space that isn't legitimately "yours", even if there's room for your bike. On the other hand, if all those cars are turning left or something, and you just pass through a gap between cars to get to the right lane, that would be like passing through a movie/grocery line -- perfectly acceptable.)