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I keep reading about all these allegedly bad drivers out there and how they are causing all these threats and problems for cyclists, but I simply don't encounter them, whether cycling or driving a car.
So, the purpose of this thread is to describe situations that have recently happened to you that you considered involved "bad" driving that harmed, or nearly harmed, you.
PLEASE, do not include examples of where you were not noticed because you were riding in the bike lane or near the edge of the road. You should expect to be overlooked in those situations by most drivers, not just "bad" ones.
Please specify when the incident occured, where you were positioned in the roadway, the street situation (# of lanes, how close to an intersection, etc.), approximate speeds, etc.
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I was in the middle of the southbound right lane at a red stop light. I was behind a Jeep. To my right, a line of three cars filled the marked right-hand turn lane. A Ford Excursion pulled up behind me. I turned to make eye contact with the driver behind me.
"You're not a car!" the driver yelled at me.
"You're right," I responded, "But I have legal right to be here."
When the light turned green I clipped in, and took off with the intent of moving back over to the right after the intersection. To my chagrin, the driver took it upon herself to pass me mid-intersection and evidently moved over only just enough to buzz me. I guess she wanted to teach me a lesson. So in the middle of an intersection, in the middle of a lane, her passenger-side mirror hits me in the shoulder and throws me to the ground.
That was bad driving. And blatant stupidity and evilness on the part of the driver.
local nursery/landscaping truck carrying a back hoe on a trailer. Guy drivingit had no regard for my safty or other drivers. I was centerish in the lane crestigng a some what blind hill. he goes to pass me even in my all but center position in the lane he still passes with in a foot of me with the dump truck it self and proceded to cross back in to my lane as there was a carcoming the other direction. I still had to ditch in to a yard. thankfully this was one of the few spots on jhonson road with out a ditch. If i hadnt moved right when i did i would have been nailed. Had i been furhter right on the road id have simply went further in to the home owners lawn.
I said once a year. It is rare when a car puts me in danger. Of course if I rode with my head UMA I might be at risk more often.
That is NOT to say there are not bad drivers. I have had a couple of times in the car that by the time I make it to the freeway (less than 1 1/2/ miles) I've seen 3 absolute idiots. Things like turning right from the left turn lane. I guess I see my fair share of these on the bike also, but rarely close enough to present any danger.
How about getting right-hooked by someone turning into a driveway from the WRONG SIDE of a 2-lane road?
Serge, I know where you are going with this poll, and I do concur with you that one's riding style can reduce one's vulnerability to bad drivers. Where we differ is in our tolerance of the risk imposed by bad drivers and in our faith in our ability to evade them.
I have incidents happen to me maybe a couple times a year... not counting the very obvious running of red lights at a right on red...
I know the response to that is going to be "get out of the bike lane." But the most blatant incident I can think of happens at Genesee and Nobel, where I am in the left side of right most thru lane crossing Nobel... Way out of the BL.
Every now and then a hotshot either pulls out or tries to pull out. (the attempts stopped by a loud yell from me). This is at the intersection of a 6 lane road and a 4 lane (or is Nobel also 6???)
I expect drivers to run right on red, I look for it, and I am never surprised by it.
Other moves however... some very unpredictable, come up about twice a year or so.
Twice I have had motorists try to make turns around me from a the wrong lane... in the past year or so. One a right turn from a left straight through lane, and one a left turn from a right only turn lane. Are they bad drivers, or drivers just making bad judgements at the last second?
I donno, but when their moves put me in jeopardy, I tend to think "bad driver."
Can you define bad driver for us.
Not sure who you're asking, Diane, but the definition of "bad driver" I intended in the OP and poll was a driver whose behavior harms or comes close to harming you. From the OP:
So, the purpose of this thread is to describe situations that have recently happened to you that you considered involved "bad" driving that harmed, or nearly harmed, you.
Not sure who you're asking, Diane, but the definition of "bad driver" I intended in the OP and poll was a driver whose behavior harms or comes close to harming you. From the OP:
I also define is as a driver doing something very unpredictable, something you cannot plan to avoid as there is no way to foresee their actions.
Avoiding right on red runners is very predictable... bad behaviour, but very predictable.
Ok then, I saw 3 bad drivers on the way home tonight.
Not related to cycling, but to bad drivers... is backing up an off ramp (against oncoming traffic) considered "bad?"
Saw that one about 3-4 weeks ago... right behind me as I exited the freeway while driving. Do ya think that counts?
The most common thing I find are drivers who make a right turn a few feet in front of you, very slowly, and without a turn signal. Or, alternately, the cross-traffic driver who you look directly in the eye, yet never-the-less decides to make a very slow right turn directly into your path. Some drivers are so clueless they seem to think anybody on a bike is incapable of speeds over one or two miles an hour.
I also define is as a driver doing something very unpredictable, something you cannot plan to avoid as there is no way to foresee their actions.
I don't, unless that unpredicatble behavior harms or threatens to harm someone. This is why I asked for specific examples in the OP. I believe that the incidence of "bad" driving is several orders higher in the minds of some cyclists (look at this disparity in this poll!!!) than it is in reality.
is backing up an off ramp (against oncoming traffic) considered "bad?"
Again, only if it harms or threatens to harm someone. I've seen CHPs back up an off ramp. Does that mean they're bad drivers? If the sight lines allow for doing it safely, what's so bad about it?
bad driving? dangererous driving? careless driving? mindful driving? good driving?
dangerous, about 1/yr.
careless, average everyday
good, every day
mindful, every week
those who actually put my life at risk 1/2yr.
I was in the middle of the southbound right lane at a red stop light. I was behind a Jeep. To my right, a line of three cars filled the marked right-hand turn lane. A Ford Excursion pulled up behind me. I turned to make eye contact with the driver behind me.
"You're not a car!" the driver yelled at me.
"You're right," I responded, "But I have legal right to be here."
When the light turned green I clipped in, and took off with the intent of moving back over to the right after the intersection. To my chagrin, the driver took it upon herself to pass me mid-intersection and evidently moved over only just enough to buzz me. I guess she wanted to teach me a lesson. So in the middle of an intersection, in the middle of a lane, her passenger-side mirror hits me in the shoulder and throws me to the ground.
That was bad driving. And blatant stupidity and evilness on the part of the driver.
did you get money out of her, that would piss me off so much. I would sue her ass so fast.
I get endangered by a car on a pretty regular basis. Its funny because when i am riding downtown everyone is used to riding with cyclists in the road so I am fine and everyone is nice. But when you get into the suburbs everyone acts like they own the road and you shouldnt be on it, they blatantly disregard you most of the time. This is why I like riding downtown.
i had water thrown on me tonight, a woman honked and began to clip pass me, and some dude pulled right next to me at the stoplight, and put the squeeze on me, even though i was in the middle of the thru lane ahead of him at the light.
your thread choices are lame. none of these drivers 'harmed' me, i was not in a bike lane for any of it, and i could care less about your accounting of bad drivers you seemingly never encounter. i think you must not ride much, if you never see the results of poor driving or drivers willing to push bicyclists around.
In downtown Spokane we have a problem with motorists habitually turning from lanes that are not permitted to turn. Example: Stevens going south, it's a 4-lane one-way. Only the outer lanes have the option to turn, all others must go straight. But people turn from all the other lanes anyway, I've seen it all. My road position can be anywhere, in my minivan or on my bicycle, and it still happens. One of those things you simply have to allow for, because lane positioning won't help; they're coming across your lane no matter which part of it you're using.
Another one: going downhill into downtown on Ben Garnett Way. Two lanes from Grand and two lanes from BG Way merge to form Washington northbound, 4 lanes one-way. If I'm on the BG Way side, then I need to merge right. The people in the next lane to my right usually want to merge left, so we have to orchestrate a lane swap. At 30+ in a 30 zone (with 50mph+ potential on this descent), I certainly take a center-lane position, and of course I have the NiteRider FlameThrower and the Nova running, but it's still got danger potential if I'm in the blind spots of the people wanting to merge into my lane.
In that merge, the important thing is not to be in the middle of the lane. It's to match speed with the people on my right, and stagger my position so I'm not in someone's blind spot. I also must make sure that no one who's two lanes over is planning to merge into the same spot I'm merging into, from the other side of it. I additionally have to keep the brakes ready in case someone underestimates my speed and tries to cross Washington in front of me (major high school + hospitals, major traffic). So it calls for a lot of head-checking in what Forester would call a "large arc of vigilance." If conditions aren't favorable, heck, I just stay in my lane for a while and wait for things to settle.
Incidentally, the last collision I had was in that area. I was in the center of the left lane, doing ~30 in the 30 zone. It was daytime, and I didn't run a headlight in the daytime back then. Also, I was wearing a dark-green coat. A lady in a mini-van crossed the right three lanes from a stop sign and clipped my Cannondale just above the rear dropout, sending me sliding down the street at 30mph. After this, I began running a 12W halogen headlight, and later 13W HID, as daytime visibility enhancements, along with my NiteRider Defender rear blinkie, and later my LD-1000, and now my Nova. My co-workers got me my neon-yellow riding jacket that has also really helped. Summary: HH-approved lane position didn't help one iota ;) but visibility equipment almost certainly would've. Fortunately the Cannondale and I both came out of it ok.
Another specific example recently: I was heading to work on Southeast Boulevard. A garbage truck was at a side street on my right. It intersects SE Blvd at a 45° angle. So if I'm facing 12-o'clock, the garbage-truck driver was on my right aiming at my 10-o'clock. And get this... there was no one in the driver's seat?! :eek: The driver was on the right-side driver's seat (these trucks can be driven from either side, I guess). He was craning his neck to look in his left-side mirror in order to determine if anyone was coming, before pulling past his STOP sign into SE Blvd. It was a good day to have a NiteRider HID headlight running :) I'd have had to cross the road entirely before he could've seen me directly, so lane position wouldn't help.
/ rambling
PLEASE, do not include examples of where you were not noticed because you were riding in the bike lane or near the edge of the road. You should expect to be overlooked in those situations by most drivers, not just "bad" ones.
I think this disclaimer undermines the usefulness of this exercise. As we have said here at least a thousand times, the law specifies that bikes are to be ridden as far as *practical* to the right (or words to that effect) under most circumstances.
Personally I don't always do this, partly for the the reasons that you yourself have mentioned in other threads, but I am doing this to COMPENSATE for BAD DRIVERS. Because a motorist who does not expect a BICYCLE in a BICYCLE LANE or elsewhere on the right side of the road, in accordance with the letter of the law, is a BAD DRIVER.
If you want to shift your road position, that's fine, but dont give inept motorists any more excuses.
I did not provide the examples of my 3 bad drivers last night
1. Driver was in the oncoming lane. Decided to attempt to pass two bicyclists on blind curve. I was coming down around the blind curve in the center of the lane and was surprised to see a truck in my path. He lurched back to his own side even though that meant he came a little too close to the bicyclists he was attempting to pass.
2. Driver was in the oncoming lane near the corner of a large 4-way intersection. I was merging toward the left turn lane. Driver in his enormous pickup truck decides to use my left turn lane to pass people slowing to turn into the gas station. I had to adjust my merging so as not to be run over.
3. Driver was turning left from a side street onto my street. There was some traffic coming and she was visibly getting annoyed with the long wait. She saw me coming up the street but decided to pull out into my path anyway because otherwise she'd have to wait for two more drivers if she didn't take her chance right then. I was forced to move closer to the curb.
I keep reading about all these allegedly bad drivers out there and how they are causing all these threats and problems for cyclists, but I simply don't encounter them, whether cycling or driving a car.
So, the purpose of this thread is to describe situations that have recently happened to you that you considered involved "bad" driving that harmed, or nearly harmed, you.
PLEASE, do not include examples of where you were not noticed because you were riding in the bike lane or near the edge of the road. You should expect to be overlooked in those situations by most drivers, not just "bad" ones.
Please specify when the incident occured, where you were positioned in the roadway, the street situation (# of lanes, how close to an intersection, etc.), approximate speeds, etc.
HH, you know I do the VC 1/3 to "centerish" position on the road and it NEVER FAILS daily: some idiot pulls a squeeze or buzz maneuver while passing me. So please, stop preaching.
I have one from yesterday. I have many more, this one was just bad.
I was leaving a parking lot. I was on the correct side of the road by a street I was about to cross. The street was full of traffic. The cars left me a little spot to cross, on MY side of the street. I start to cross the street. The suv lady sees this opening also, and gets on the WRONG side of the road to get into it. She acellerates into it, oblivious of me. I slam on my bad brakes in the middle of the road so I dont hit her.
I was very close to her bumper. Then, she looks at ME like I did something wrong!? I just gave her the head shake that means, "I feel bad for you because your going to kill someone one day", and went on with my riding.
I come close to an accident 3 or 4 times a year, a the most. Half the time it's my fault. :o So I put twice a year.
The disparity in the results is very interesting. Almost 50% have chosen one of these three:
A couple of times per year (19.35%)
Maybe once a year (12.90%)
Once every few years, at most (16.13%)
But another 45% or so has chosen one of these:
5 or more times per day (that I ride), without exception. (3.23%)
at least once per day (16.13%)
5 or more times per week (12.90%)
at least once a week (12.90%)
That means half encounter what they consider to be bad drivers no more than twice a year, while the other half encounters them at least 50 times a year (and most of those more than 250 times per year).
What's going on?
I've had people make eye contact and pull out or pass to close from time to time. I'm a lane taker, so there's rarely opportunity for right hooks. Nothing terrible happens that often, and most drivers seem content to share the road with me. There have been exceptions, though, like this:
I'm taking the lane in anticipation of making a move into a left turn lane to (surprise) make a left turn. I'm signalling a left turn, my left arm horizontally extended to tell the driver following me of my intention. Just as I'm making move to the turn lane, Mr. Brain Trust in his pickup decides he needs to pass on the LEFT right NOW, forcing me to engage in evasive maneuvers to avoid becoming part of the road. Once the immediate danger has passed, I call his parentage into question and flash him the ol' double deuce. He brakes like he's gonna come back and discuss our encounter, but I just make my left turn and never see him again.
That sort of thing seems to happen only once in a great while though.
What's going on?
The real world isn't fitting neatly into your tight little package of preconceived notions.
:eek:
I keep reading about all these allegedly bad drivers out there and how they are causing all these threats and problems for cyclists, but I simply don't encounter them, whether cycling or driving a car.
So, the purpose of this thread is to describe situations that have recently happened to you that you considered involved "bad" driving that harmed, or nearly harmed, you.
PLEASE, do not include examples of where you were not noticed because you were riding in the bike lane or near the edge of the road. You should expect to be overlooked in those situations by most drivers, not just "bad" ones.
Please specify when the incident occured, where you were positioned in the roadway, the street situation (# of lanes, how close to an intersection, etc.), approximate speeds, etc.
HH,
I've been keeping close tabs on my frequency of being overlooked by other road users (from that other thread) and found that I was a little high in my estimate of 'at least once or twice per shift.' Turns out the frequency is more like once per eight hours or so in traffic, or about 3 per four days for me. Keep in mind that I also ride in such a way as to minimize my dependence on driver vision; it is quite likely that I am overlooked by many more road users than that, but I simply don't notice because it doesn't matter. These are only the encounters which would have ended in a collision if not for my being able to see the play develop and avoid it. I also only counted incidents in which I was riding lawfully in a central position in the road. In city traffic, a substantial portion of these overlookings are from pedestrians. Here are some recent examples that I can recall:
I'm riding fast northbound on Logan, about 25 mph. I'm way over to the left, about a foot from the center lane marker on this two-lane one way with parking on the right, which puts me about 15 feet from the parked cars. A woman in a huge SUV, like an Excursion or something, accelerates hard out of a parking space in such a way that the front of her vehicle swings all the way into the far lane. If I hadn't seen it coming she would have plowed right into me for a very violent collision, but I am able to swing around her on the left and look at her horrified expression as I roll by within about two feet of her driver's side window.
Westbound on 10th down the hill toward Lincoln. A pedestrian steps out from between parked cars on my right, glances left and right and walks right out in front of me. 'Behind ya,' I say as I go past, and she jumps and clutches herself in surprise. This is the very same place where a friend of mine plowed into a jaywalker about ten years ago, sending the ped to the hospital.
Westbound 7th @ Ogden?? Driver at stop sign on my right. There is a big construction dumpster or something on his right, obscuring his vision of traffic on his right. Overly freaked out by the prospect of traffic on his right, the driver barely glances to his left as I am approaching and does not detect my existence, then begins rolling his car into the intersection in hopes of being able to see around the dumpster. He puts his car right in my path and I end up stopping right at his window where I am belatedly noticed and apologized to.
I could go on but the memory of these events is not exactly burned into my skull. They are not what I would call unusual events. They are simply part of the cost of doing business in traffic. The only reason I recall these is because I have been paying special attention lately as per the discussion in the other thread. I also have seen plenty of more exciting things like drivers turning left from the right lane, driving straight at me on the wrong side of the street, etc. Handling these driver and pedestrian mistakes is the most critical task facing us as cyclists. Everything else is window dressing.
In the past month or so, I myself overlooked two approaching motorcyclists at first glance, and only detected them with a second look, even though both motorcyclists had bright headlights.
HH, the notion that assertive positioning will eliminate incidents of being overlooked by drivers is a dangerously innocent one.
Robert
My usual almost accident is cars at stop signs almost pulling out into me. Maybe I have a really close call - close enough that one/both of us needs to take evasive action - once every couple months so I chose that one. Close calls where my life doesn't flash before my eyes happen much more frequently. Maybe every week or a couple times a week but these generally only involve swearing and not cleaning out the shorts. Reason for lots of close calls with some people, I think many people are lumping both types together - for better or worse.
The disparity in the results is very interesting.
...
What's going on?
Maybe it has something to do with the wording of your poll. You asked about frequency of incidents per unit of time. Consider that some people ride a lot, and some people ride not so much for any given unit of time. Therefore, statements like 'I've been riding for 30 years and blah blah blahala...' should be assigned all the weight they deserve, which is about kneehigh to zilch. The proper question is how much do you actually ride between incidents. How many miles, or better yet, how many hours in the saddle.
Even then, gathering conclusions from your poll would be a highly stinky enterprise simply because some riders are in heavy traffic quite often and some ride primarily for recreation purposes, avoid heavy traffic if they can, and thus see a mere fraction of intersections, drivers, and pedestrians per hour of riding. Also, cycling conditions vary drastically from region to region across North America.
Robert
The disparity in the results is very interesting. Almost 50% have chosen one of these three:
A couple of times per year (19.35%)
Maybe once a year (12.90%)
Once every few years, at most (16.13%)
But another 45% or so has chosen one of these:
5 or more times per day (that I ride), without exception. (3.23%)
at least once per day (16.13%)
5 or more times per week (12.90%)
at least once a week (12.90%)
That means half encounter what they consider to be bad drivers no more than twice a year, while the other half encounters them at least 50 times a year (and most of those more than 250 times per year).
What's going on?
Serge, I am with John Eldon in that many cyclist/motorist conflicts can be avoided by good cycling practices, but that the element of danger imposed by improper motorist behavior around cyclists shouldn't be discounted.
When you ask, "What's going on?" I have to ask you the same question. What's going on when you create a poll for people to give an honest response, only to use the results to cast doubt upon their cycling habits? Seriously, it appears that you issued the poll with predetermined notions and hoped the poll would support those notions. That's just not scientific.
If you want to know what's going on, go into it with an open mind. Don't craft a poll designed to support what you already believe. That's what "science" is all about. Besides, polls are very subjective in nature.
Maybe it has something to do with the wording of your poll...
Even then, gathering conclusions from your poll would be a highly stinky enterprise simply because some riders are in heavy traffic quite often and some ride primarily for recreation purposes, avoid heavy traffic if they can, and thus see a mere fraction of intersections, drivers, and pedestrians per hour of riding. Also, cycling conditions vary drastically from region to region across North America.
Furthermore, the BF members still willing to respond to a loaded HH poll with an answer that might subject themselves to the usual HH sophistry/counter arguments are unrepresentative of the BF population and even more so the general public. No one in their right mind would extrapolate the results of an HH poll beyond the handful of people willing to respond to them.
HH either gets the answers he's fishing for by badgering those who don't give it to him or is confused or stirs up confusion when someone provides the "wrong" response.
just a note hh these 2 polloptions are basically the same thing
at least once a week
4 or more times per month
Results are intresting though To bad we dont know where each voters is from state city country
For the record, I didn't vote in the poll either.
The real world isn't fitting neatly into your tight little package of preconceived notions.
What preconceived notions in my little package are not being supported here?
Seriously, it appears that you issued the poll with predetermined notions and hoped the poll would support those notions.
Of course I have predetermined notions. Who doesn't?
I do try to word my polls as objectively as I can, however, and I am genuinely interested in learning what I can from them.
I think Robert's points are well taken... that this poll does not take into account how much riding each cyclist does.
But even if you assume a bell curve in that area... in that some poll respondents ride much more than most of the others, and some ride much less than most of the others, that the vast majority ride about the same, this does not explain the disparity. Same thing with regions. Either way, you'd expect extremes, but a hump in the center. We don't have that here. We have two big humps, with very few in the center. Why?
What preconceived notions in my little package are not being supported here?
Of course I have predetermined notions. Who doesn't?
The predetermined preconceived ones. That's which.
You went into this poll with the assumption that you could probably prove that lane positioning or whether or not we used bike lanes or wore the Forester VC(tm) label proudly upon our sleeves had something to do with the frequency with which we saw/experienced bad driving out there.
You went into this poll with the assumption that you could probably prove that lane positioning or whether or not we used bike lanes or wore the Forester VC(tm) label proudly upon our sleeves had something to do with the frequency with which we saw/experienced bad driving out there.
Not quite. Like I've said before many times, I do believe that the incidence with which a given cyclist encounters "bad" drivers has much more to do with his own beliefs and behavior than the driving of the motorists he encounters, which I believe because I saw the incidence change dramatically when I changed my beliefs and behavior, so of course I have that preconceived notion. I can cause "bad" drivers to appear and disappear based on how I ride.
But I did not believe that this poll would prove that to others, or anything else.
What I did hope it would do, and it did, is show that there is a wide disparity. I could then use that to hopefully get a few cyclists to think about why that is. Apparently, you're not one of them.
No, you did not want to get a few cyclists to think about "what that is." You wanted to get them to think "maybe it's because I should be doing what HH does." There's a big difference.
Irony: The only times I've had any issues at all have been when I'm wearing some form of kit, be it just a jersey, helmet and cycling shorts.
90% of the time I'm riding in jeans (rolled) a t-shirt and my Nike mtb-style cleats. Zero issues. I take the lane, I ride like a bandit, but I also keep up with the flow of traffic for the 1 mile ride each way.
So I'm not certain what kind of empirical evidence can be obtained from the poll, or people's anecdotes, but I do find it humorous that I can be anti-cycle and get treated with respect but be pro-cycle looking and get disparraged and overlooked.
No, you did not want to get a few cyclists to think about "what that is." You wanted to get them to think "maybe it's because I should be doing what HH does." There's a big difference.
Hey, I got Robert Hurst not only thinking about it, but giving a pretty good suggestion for what the explanation is which had nothing to do with my preconceptions. Have a good holiday.
Depends on how many miles you put on the road. Maybe you change the poll to include some mileage difference between riders. Another option to put in would be about close calls you've seen but was not part a participant.
I voted twice a year. Disagreements with motorists do not count.
Very rarely does something occur that could cause me bodily harm. (knock on wood)
Most of my issues are verbal disagreements, various homosexual references, "get off the road", and other stupid items.
The only issue that I can remember occuring that affected my safety happened last fall. I was riding by a middle school in a bike lane and a lady in a SUV attempted to right hook me.
Ride like they are out to kill you.
Edit:
I put 200-250 miles a week on my bike.
I would say roughly 60% is on MUPs. Then I switch to being wary of peds trying to wreck me.
Maybe it has something to do with the wording of your poll. You asked about frequency of incidents per unit of time. Consider that some people ride a lot, and some people ride not so much for any given unit of time. Therefore, statements like 'I've been riding for 30 years and blah blah blahala...' should be assigned all the weight they deserve, which is about kneehigh to zilch. The proper question is how much do you actually ride between incidents. How many miles, or better yet, how many hours in the saddle.
Even then, gathering conclusions from your poll would be a highly stinky enterprise simply because some riders are in heavy traffic quite often and some ride primarily for recreation purposes, avoid heavy traffic if they can, and thus see a mere fraction of intersections, drivers, and pedestrians per hour of riding. Also, cycling conditions vary drastically from region to region across North America.
Robert
Not only that but this sort of thing tends to be highly area centric. Meaning some places and people may have a very low inccident of nearmisses/accidents and in rare cases none at all. The more parks that attract cyclists the less the incident rate in general. Also how close you are to a park or if your on a road with a park entrance can effect the general attitude and awareness of drivers. A good example of this is my nearest local park silver creek. When im on jhonson road i see a much higher inccident of idiot drivers who buzz me or flat out attempt to run me off the road. How ever when i make that left turn on to hametown or cross hametown the rate drops to near zero. 31st st i have a few incidents on but i can count them in the half dozen range per month easly. But once it turns in to south cleveland massilon again the inccident rate drops to near zero. You see cleve mass leads to center road wich is where the clinton trail head for the towpath is center road not only is the incident rate near zero cars will pass you with more than enough room to spare giveing a friendly head nod or wave as they pass. On 2 ocasions guy in convetable called out on your left and then smiled as he went by. Obviously hes also a cyclist and said it as a joke.
Again part of the reason for the odditiy in hhs poll results is the highly area centric nature of the ebast that is morotist stupidity and not only how often a rider rides.
No, you did not want to get a few cyclists to think about "what that is." You wanted to get them to think "maybe it's because I should be doing what HH does." There's a big difference.
Now now sbhikes give him a break on thispaticular poll its much better than most of his previousones. I to can see his confusion in the results. See my previous post for my thoughts on it. I think it boils down to the amount of time a rider is on the road and the general areas they ride in. For a good higer reliability result this poll would need stickied for a good long time. Also areas where people ride would need to be added to the comments. For me its pretty much all over the dang place with in about a 18 to 20 mile radious. To see the genral area where i ride search for rock cut in ohio zip 44203. Useing topoo draw a circle 20miles radious. Now slice out a pie section centered to the north of 1/4 the size of the circle and you got the general area i ride in. So of corse ill have more bad experiance with drivers than some one who rides in a small strip along the same roads all the time as my area is large than theirs covering more and varied roads.
I figure the highes rate of incident will be with those riding in buissness districts during rush hours or lucnh hours. So theres another variable to take in to acount the time of day.
Maybe a mod could sticky this post so the poll gets a higher number of votes to increase its accuracy.
Not related to cycling, but to bad drivers... is backing up an off ramp (against oncoming traffic) considered "bad?"
Saw that one about 3-4 weeks ago... right behind me as I exited the freeway while driving. Do ya think that counts? Heh, what about a car going the wrong way on a divided highway? I saw that once. Fortunately traffic was light and the driver quickly realized that he made a little mistake...
Another one: a group of four cyclists is riding on a one-way street with four lanes in the centre of the right-most lane (they are narrow). A car passes cyclists on the left and makes a sharp right turn in front of the group leader who is forced to brake hard. A lovely thing about that one is that another driver who witnessed the whole thing stuck her head out of her car's window and yelled at the cyclists: "Drive responsibly!" as if they were at fault here.
Another one: I am stopped at a stop sign waiting to cross a large street. After I've been stopped for at least ten seconds a car comes from the opposite direction and stops at a stop sign at the other side of the intersection. When there is a gap in traffic on the main road we both take off and the driver nearly runs into me while making a left turn onto that road. I brake sharply and yell, she looks at me as the whole thing is my fault and drives away.
How often do these things happen? Not very often. By far the most common bad behaviour by drivers I encounter is buzzing. Yes, even when I am in the middle of the lane (although that usually decreases the number of buzzers). That is if there are other lanes in the same direction present. If they are not present, there are often honks and yells. Not bad driving, but not pleasant nevertheless. In fact I do not feel very safe in those situations...
(excerpted)
I can cause "bad" drivers to appear and disappear based on how I ride.
But I did not believe that this poll would prove that to others, or anything else.
I am glad to see helmet head hasn't totally lost touch with reality- he's darn right believing he'd have a hard time convincing people of the first statement.
Helmet Head, your 'Notions' are DSM-IV certifiable.
All I have to do is cross the street. I live across the street from work, and in ten street crossings this week, I counted 22 red light runners. And I don't mean the last minute ones, I'm talking about the ones who never saw it in the first place, stopped then went, or just steered around stopped traffic into the oncoming lane to blow the red light.
One lady was errr.. occupying a crew cab Dodge Ram at 15 mph Wednesday Morning, right through the solid red light while putting on lipstick. I'd already walked past that lane, but keep an eye open anyways, and turned around to give the drivers door a loud slap on the way by.
"Slow down, Killer!"
The worst I've ever seen was a couple years ago. A lady pulled up to a light rail Stop Gate, realized the gate was higher than her roof, and drove underneath to park on the tracks. Fortunately, her car was an automatic; she took her foot off the brake to root around in the back seat, and rolled off the tracks, forwards into moving (sliding, honking) 45 mph traffic as the train shot by. Then she turned around and swore mightily at all the rude people who slid to a stop in her way.
I've seen one kid take his dad's '63 Impala out for a joyride. He roasted the back tires out of a left turn, and managed a u-turn right into a deep ditch.
I helped out one guy who drove a new path through some trees when he saw a bee in his pickup.
These people are out there. Simply assuming the best doesn't make every driver you meet above average. All you have to be is in the way with your guard down. Never trust a box jockey, not for one second, no matter what the odds, when you're betting your life.
I got a close pass Wednesday. But I have come to realize what I perceive as close often isn't, really. What I perceive as close is a driver that only partially changes lanes while passing, unlike the vast majority of drivers in this area who completely change lanes. The driver passed me and stopped at the only convience store around that area of the county, then had to pass me again a mile and a half further down the road. He gave me more room the second time.
I got a "Get off the road!!" awhile back, but this is very rare.
A couple months ago a driver accelerated through a stop sign on my right and hung a left in the intersection to beat the cyclist so he wouldn't have to wait. I deliberately cut it closer to the side of his flawlessly painted truck than was necessary to push a point. The thing about it was, if he had treated the stop sign as he would have had I had not been there, I would have been through the intersection and caused him no delay. I have seen the same truck several times since then and had no further problems.
Helmet head needs a poll to prove what we've all been saying all this time? That conditions are different in different regions? Do the phrases "Chicago drivers", "L.A. drivers", "Florida drivers", "New York drivers", "Cab drivers", "Bus drivers", "Sunday drivers" mean anything to anybody? This is not a new concept.
I do not buy it that HH was trying to learn anything about regional differences or anything else. He's trying to prove his theory that anybody who sees bad drivers is not riding a bike the way he advocates. He started this poll after making just that point.
See http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2710690&postcount=242 , quoted below (in fact see all his posts on this page: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=205526&page=10
I can't remember the last time a "bad" driver caused any kind of problem for me, whether I was on a bike or driving a car. I've never been in a crash (knocks on wood), as a cyclist or car driver, and the only times I've ever come close to being in one is when I did something stupid. The last time was about 3 years on my bike on my commute, in a bike lane on a downhill going about 20 mph passing traffic stopped due to construction. A woman driving a minivan suddenly pulled out of the right lane to turn into a sidestreet (presumably to find a detour). To this day I have no idea how I managed to cut a sharp 90 degree turn inside of her turn into that side street. I do remember my shoulder ending up against the side of the van. But even then, was she a "bad" driver? Not in my book. It didn't occur to her to check the bike lane before pulling out like she did, and I can't blame her.
Where are all of these allegedly bad drivers, and how are they affecting you?
Hmm... I might start a new thread on that... look for it.
The part in bold is the belief he bases his poll on. That riding in the bike lane, which is the manner he is opposed to, is the reason cyclists see bad drivers. He believes that when he rides in the bike lane he sees bad drivers, and when he rides in a center lane position he stops seeing bad drivers. And therefore, those of use who see bad drivers must not be riding in a center lane position the way he does.
He has only one song and this topic is simply one more stanza.
I don't know what's oing on, but if I had true close calls once a week or more, I would quit cycling. I imagine what might be going on is three things:
Some people have a vey liberal definition of "close call." Maybe they think every time a car gets within 5 feet it's a close call.
Some people might have dangerous or agressive cycling styles that really do involve them in a lot of close calls.
Some people like to exaggerate the dangerousness of their activities because it makes them feel more manly, or just because it makes for interesting stories. There's at least one frequent poster here who I suspect falls into this category, and there are probably others too.
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