And yet Lance does this for 7 years and never comes up positive. Hmmmm I wonder, maybe because he is clean and just works harder than everyone else.

None of the suspended riders tested positive for anything. Read the story. They have been implicated in a doping scandal and their respective teams have suspended them. They didnt test positive, that we know, and the Tour didnt kick them out. Later.

Has anything been proven, or is this guit by association?
It's a police investigation. There's clearly evidence enough for a team to voluntarily withraw a rider.

If I remember the rules correctly, anytime a rider is named in an investigation, he's required to withdraw men this would not be voluntary. Then again, I'm no expert of European cycling law ;)

David Millar may be the only clean rider this year :p

There is no correlation between the two elements in your argument.


Actually there is. The evidence that PED's work is overwhelming. We can now confirm that two of Lances rivals in the last two Tours doped. There can be only two conclusions. One Lance doped as well to even the playing field. Or two Lance raced clean and is so superior to every athlete in cycling that he could dominate them even when they took PED's.

There is the crux of the Lance debate. There are those who only want to believe the latter conclusion. They want a hero of Herculean proportion that was beyond reproach.

Then there are the rest who believe that the peloton is for the most part riding with assistance from PED's and anyone who wants to be in contention will have to do the same. This includes Lance.

I believe that Lance is an amazing athlete, and if everyone were riding clean (including himself) the out come of the last 7 tours would have been the same. PED's don't make you great cyclist, you dope me up with everything in cabinet and I'd still be on the broomwagon by the end of the first long stage. Just because he never failed a test doesn't mean he didn't dope, Basso and Ulrich never failed a doping test either. Nor has David Miller yet it appears all of them have doped.

If I remember the rules correctly, anytime a rider is named in an investigation, he's required to withdraw men this would not be voluntary. Then again, I'm no expert of European cycling law ;)

It's not "European cycling law" it's an ethics chart that all PRO Tour cycling teams accepted to follow. If one of their riders is involved in an official investigation around doping, the team will deliberately withdraw that rider from any races.

This is the reason for Astana's problem:

1) the sports director AND co-owner of the team is under investigation
2) 9 riders from his team are under investigation

But Vinokourov is at present totally cleared from this. So what do you do? Kick out the whole team, or just the riders involved?

According to cyclingnews this morning, ASO rejected the CAS decision and has prevented Astana Wurth from participation in this years Tour. Joseba Beloki was also on the final list tainting the team even further.

The team presentation gala last night must have been a real downer as organizers were handing out ejection letters as the team buses were arriving for the event.

Thanks for the book, will look into it.
So Lance could of been cheating this whole time and no one would have known?

There are both sides to this, but I think it's highly unlikely that Lance was doping. i say this only because they tried their best to catch him doping. he was under a microscope. They showed up at his house whenever they thought they might be able to catch him offguard. If he doped, he's using alien drugs that don't even show up to the naked eye (looks like air or something, I guess :D). No, I think Lance was just one of those rare freaks of nature, the next step on the evolutionary chain if you will. :) I won't 100% rule out the possibility of doping immediately after cancer to get back to shape (some of Lance's responses to point-blank "Have you ever doped" questions have been decidely Mark McGuire-ish), but I'm inclined to doubt any serious doping.

drug fest, by top contenders.
Shame I wuld have liked to have seen Urlich win.

quite plausible blood doping contributed to Lance Armstrongs Cancer

Where do you get the idea, that if Basso was doping, Riis didn't know?
Because of several things; mostly because a lot of the hard evidence linking riders to Dr. Fuentes seems to be telephone calls, faxes, surveillance camera etc. So I guess that some hard, direct link between the doping doctor and Ivan Basso exists. This again implies personal contact between Ivan Basso and the doctor.
Knowing Bjarne Riis, he would never allow such personal contact, he is just to cunning to do so. Note that I am not saying Bjarne Riis wouldn't be running a doping program for his team, just that if he did, then he would control the program 100%. Riis is just too much of a control freak to allow such important things as doping to be up to the individual rider.

--
Regards

I think they have Basso on a phone tap

Jan wasn't going to win anyways, he just can't climb anymore, its a fact. I think now the clear favorite is Landis, unless he and the rest of the riders are booted before the race. This has to be a nightmare for the Tour. The ratings were going to slip since Lance is no longer there, but then again they probably wouldn't since everyone wants to see how the race would be without him. It would be such a different race tactics-wise then it has been the past 7 years, but now without the top two favorites, that will certainly kill interest.

very dissapointing news this morning...makes me sick to my stomach. If Vino doesn't ride, It'll be hard for me to watch the tour this year

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=31414033&blogID=139117326&MyToken=bc1415e1-e3fb-413b-bd90-be0846cd76cf

shame shame shame

Ii say this only because they tried their best to catch him doping. he was under a microscope. They showed up at his house whenever they thought they might be able to catch him offguard.
No they didn't.

This really blows.

Is it just me or has Jan's myspace thingy disappeared?

It's there, http://www.myspace.com/kaiserjan.

But the ghost-Jan has posted his disappointments and that this is probably the end of the fun.

Too bad. That stuff was so freaking funny.

"quite plausible blood doping contributed to Lance Armstrongs Cancer"

I don't believe that. I'm not saying that he couldn't have doped at some point in her career but there absolutely no evidence to suggest any of this has anything to do with Lance's testicular cancer. Testicular cancer is most common in young men in their 20-30's. That's all there is to it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:eek: Wow! I wonder who else will be out because of this?

Obviously none of the top Americans dope.

Is there concrete proof? Why not run them now, then just DQ them later?

i think this is an absolute tradgedy. bad for cycling, bad for the tour, bad for everyone. certainly not the way you go about cleaning up the sport. it's pathetic. it's like saying a day before the world series that some players use steroids so we're gonna ban the yankees. i cannot believe what a mess the damn sport is. i'm really bummed.

"...and little Tommy Voeckler has won the Tour de France!"

I, for one, welcome a carbon copy of the Tour of California...

Landis, Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Julich, VandeVelde, etc. are all still in it.

The team presentation gala last night must have been a real downer as organizers were handing out ejection letters as the team buses were arriving for the event.

I imagine it was exciting news for a lot of competitors as well, it's anybody's game now!!

I'm not up on the full scandal and time frame of the alleged activities. Were any of the riders on Disco at the time they alleged to be associated with the ring? It doesn't look like it, but I can't be sure.

ps. What? No Frenchmen indicted by Operacion Puerto?

(err...no Americans, Aussies, Russians either...Still, I call shenanigans.)

And the Fox report.

http://http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201679,00.html

This really sucks. I am thinking ratings plunge. We need Lance back!.........:D

it's absolutely pathetic. this is bad for cycling and bad for the tour. i mean, the day before the start? what hapenned to innocent till proven guilty? it makes the doping control fed. seem out to kill the sport. The fans want to see jan and ivan ride and i think they should.
it's certainly no way to go about cleaning up cycling. they should all be allowed to ride and then use the off season to truly investigate in a proper way.
i'm so disappointed.

i think this is an absolute tradgedy. bad for cycling, bad for the tour, bad for everyone. certainly not the way you go about cleaning up the sport. it's pathetic. it's like saying a day before the world series that some players use steroids so we're gonna ban the yankees. i cannot believe what a mess the damn sport is. i'm really bummed.


I disagree, and I'm really bummed too.
Doing it before the world's premier event does suck - but it makes a point, and I like that (from what I've read) the Teams are taking responsibility for their riders. Putting CSC and T-Mobile on the spot will surely change the politics between teams. How much longer can the code of silence go on, when $$$ starts falling away from teams that don't come clean.

I've not the experience or the history with the TDF or racing to understand all the implications of the press, the riders, the silence, the bad docs, the $$ and the politics - but it pisses me off that its so damned hard to get a straight story out of anyone on this. Even Mr. Texas, the straight shooter from the big state, can't not dodge questions about this.

Fess up everyone, get it all on the table. Who's doing what, how, and when, and THEN get some folks together and figure out how to deal with it. Dope for everyone or dope for none. Your bike needs to meet certain requirements, so your body could too.

It may hurt now, but HOPEFULLY, a few months, years, or whatever down the road the sport will be better for it.

And the Fox report.

http://http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201679,00.html

This really sucks. I am thinking ratings plunge. We need Lance back!.........:D

I'd say that this could actually help ratings (in the US...if nowhere else), as Americans and Aussies could really take the spotlight. Be certain that OLN will be scrambling for backstories of all American riders.

Because of several things; mostly because a lot of the hard evidence linking riders to Dr. Fuentes seems to be telephone calls, faxes, surveillance camera etc. So I guess that some hard, direct link between the doping doctor and Ivan Basso exists. This again implies personal contact between Ivan Basso and the doctor.
Knowing Bjarne Riis, he would never allow such personal contact, he is just to cunning to do so. Note that I am not saying Bjarne Riis wouldn't be running a doping program for his team, just that if he did, then he would control the program 100%. Riis is just too much of a control freak to allow such important things as doping to be up to the individual rider.

--
Regards

Good points. Thank you. My opinion on this is, if you are on a doping program, your season goes through strong ups and downs, depending on what cycle of the doping program you are (giving blood, taking blood, etc ). So I cannot imagine a guy like Riis NOT knowing of his favourite rider being involved. Where I disagree with you is, that if you are in a risky situation like meeting someone for pumping blood whatever, what is Bjarne Riis there for??? The riders had to go to the doctor for obvious control reasons. the less people involved, the less risk. I am convinced that if Basso did dope, Riis obviously knew about it. His medical variations (hematocrit levels, etc) would show. But the name of the game is like in Mission Impossible: "if anyone of you gets caught,...blabla...we will deny any ...blabla..."

Riis confirmed it today during a press conference:
"It is my duty to suspend Basso. I have to think of the team, that's the most important."

Open questions still about Operacion Puerto, concerning Basso:

1. In what respect was he involved ( phone taps ??? yes, but about what? )
2. When was this? ( 2004, 2005, 2006 ??? )

Obviously none of the top Americans dope.

LOL

None of them likes Spanish doctors maybe...

There are two basic concepts of justice and law in the World. British Common Law leads to the concept of innocent until proven guilty.. The other concept is the "Napoleonic Code" which boils down to guilty until proven innocent. In the first the burden of proof (and much of the expenses) is on the accuser/government ((and taxpayer). In the second the situation is reversed. The Napoleonic code applied in Turkey where I lived for two years. The accused was often jailed pending trial so they could not flee. And the accused had to pay room and board in the jail. For a poor person his/her family would often have to move to the town near the jail and bribe the guards to let them carry food, clothing, and bedding into them. When G.I.s were in Turk jails the Turks would send them to a prison near an American base and armed MPs would bring their supplies to them otherwise the guards would take the stuff. As BF is a family site I will not describe what many foreign women were put through. As a Company Clerk of a Headquarters unit near Ankara I dealt with these matters. Note the coach (Riis?) said his racer and his lawyers would have to prove his innocence. It is simple to prove you did something and much harder to prove you did not. And often much cheaper for the taxpayer.

EDIT: I am just a bit suspicious of the timing.

"The Spanish doping scandal erupted in May when police carried out arrests and raids, seizing drugs and frozen blood thought to have been prepared for banned, performance-enhancing transfusions."

:eek: Thats pretty gross.

And now Bruyneel's plan to win the Tour begins to emerge ....

I'd say that this could actually help ratings (in the US...if nowhere else), as Americans and Aussies could really take the spotlight. Be certain that OLN will be scrambling for backstories of all American riders.



Go Floyd! Go!

Nobody from Discover... is that 'cause they bring their junk from home?

I'd say that this could actually help ratings (in the US...if nowhere else), as Americans and Aussies could really take the spotlight. Be certain that OLN will be scrambling for backstories of all American riders.

+1 (did I do that right?)

Everyone keeps talking about ratings??? In the good old US of A this event doesnt do much in the ratings category. Now, the Americans left will likely play very prominent roles in the outcome, so that can only help. As far as ratings world wide, I have no idea. Later.

Nobody from Discover... is that 'cause they bring their junk from home?

The Spanish police have no English translators.

it's absolutely pathetic. this is bad for cycling and bad for the tour. i mean, the day before the start? what hapenned to innocent till proven guilty? it makes the doping control fed. seem out to kill the sport. The fans want to see jan and ivan ride and i think they should.
it's certainly no way to go about cleaning up cycling. they should all be allowed to ride and then use the off season to truly investigate in a proper way.
i'm so disappointed.

This is what the Bush regime would call a 'pre-emptive strike.' And T-Mobile and CSC have taken the warning to heart and pre-emptively suspended their riders so they do not bring shame and embarrassment to their sponsors.

Nobody wants another deal like Liberty Seguros dropping the sponsorship. That's what's going to clean up the sport if anything. If the sponsor dollars dry up, then the teams will suffer. The best way to keep a sponsor happy? Don't disgrace the sponsor's good name.

It's business. And the fact that it is happening on the eve of the Tour means that it's serious business. If this happened in January it would get shrugged off. Now they all need to stand up and face the music.

It does suck that the top riders are not there, but so be it.

Is there concrete proof? Why not run them now, then just DQ them later?

Why not move Tour de France 2006 to 2010, when this police investigation will be over and dealt with?

More seriously, about Ullrich, it's a bit more precise. The T-Mobile team disqualified him, because the official papers they received from Spanish authorities last night contradict what he stated to his bosses.
Would you want to pay millions to someone who lies to you? So here now, it's not anymore if he doped or not, it's about:
"I swear, Boss, that I never met that guy."
And the boss receiving evidence.

Suuuuuure later on there's the funny "legal" part. Remember Clinton: "I will say at only once. I never had sex with that woman." Later on, let's debate if a small b... job is considered as sex or not...

Nobody from Discover... is that 'cause they bring their junk from home?

Interesting that Discovery has more SPANISH riders (2) listed to ride the Tour than they do AMERICAN riders (1).

The most AMERICAN team in the tour is CSC (3 riders). They did lose a rider in this deal.

A sad day indeed. I think the tour was Basso's to lose. Now they are saying Vinokourov might also get the hook. Potential headline:
Voekler Wins! Voekler Wins! The Little French Man Did It!
A

Landis' chances are looking better.

it really doesn't matter anymore who wins. the whole sport loses. i mean really, do they think somehow the puerto list is a magic list of all who dope and the rest of the peloton is clean? WHAT A FREAKIN JOKE. They're destroying careers on innuendo and suspicion. i'm furious.

it really doesn't matter anymore who wins. the whole sport loses. i mean really, do they think somehow the puerto list is a magic list of all who dope and the rest of the peloton is clean? WHAT A FREAKIN JOKE. They're destroying careers on innuendo and suspicion. i'm furious.

Do you think a team and sponsor would pull their best riders out of a chance to win without some substantial evidence? If the team directors believed the statements made by Basso and Jan why would they pull em? Why not "stand by there man" and fight?

I don't think this list is a magic bullet - but what it may do, by putting Jan and Basso and others, (and their tema and sponsors) in such a hurt, is open up dialog about this. People somwhere, somehow, know whats going on. Let's get it on the table and deal with it... however it is decided is fine by me - but lets end the charade.

Will they be able to put in replacement riders for the ones that are out ?

Seems to be conflicting news on this.

I don't quite understand, all these different teams trusting the same doctor. Wouldn't you be a little paranoid, in knowing that if you weren't paying the man the greatest amount that you might not get the "good stuff" but your opponent was? Ha

I'm with Bruce. It's terrible these riders are getting the hook without real solid proof that they are guilty of anything. The Dick Pound mentality rears it's ugly head.