As for me, I'll be glad to watch a Tour that may the beginning of a clean(er) era in the sport.

These guys are still the best bike racers on the planet, drugs or no drugs. I couldn't hold their wheel on my best day if they were all suffering from the flu! This will still be an exciting Tour but some of the names up front my be new and unknown. I watch the Tour not because of any one rider but because of all the riders. Every one of them are talented athletes, this year we may see one win on shear natural talent alone.

I started a thread a few weeks back "Why the French Suck". In it I theorized that the French haven't done well in cycling since the Festina Affair because France really cracked down on doping. Wouldn't it be interesting if the French have a great Tour this year?

These guys are still the best bike racers on the planet, drugs or no drugs. I couldn't hold their wheel on my best day if they were all suffering from the flu! This will still be an exciting Tour but some of the names up front my be new and unknown. I watch the Tour not because of any one rider but because of all the riders. Every one of them are talented athletes, this year we may see one win on shear natural talent alone.

I started a thread a few weeks back "Why the French Suck". In it I theorized that the French haven't done well in cycling since the Festina Affair because France really cracked down on doping. Wouldn't it be interesting if the French have a great Tour this year?
but they still suck, right? Just they suck and (in your scenario) do well in the '06 Tour.

(By "they" I don't mean the farmer from Cambria, the truck driver from Orleans or the regular Joe (Jean?) I really mean those damn smarmy Parisians. Every one of whose grandfathers were both heros in "the Resistence.")

Correct me if I'm wrong here...

Didn't Spanish authorities confiscate blood? If so why don't they just do DNA testing to see who's it is. Riders would have a hard time explaining this to the authorities.


A list of new rider jerseys a friend of mine just e-mailed to me:

Red with lightning bolts and devil’s head logos – for the overall leader (regardless of whose blood he’s running on)

White – for the best rider actually using his own blood

No jersey at all – for the best rider actually using his own blood – and who didn’t transfuse his own stored blood from the winter back into his system right before the race

Yellow – best rider who takes nothing stronger than a multi-vitamin

Question Mark Jersey – best rider who can prove the weird blood markers in his samples are the result of being a chimera in the womb

Green and Brown – best rider who can finish the Tour even though he frequently collapse on climbs foaming at the mouth and barfing a la Jesus Manzano

Inverse Polka Dot Jersey – best rider who has never roomed with Richard Virenque or David Millar

The problem I have with the people saying, 'why watch' is if history were turned back and no one doped, would the guys being implicated still be on top? Lets not kid ourselves, the ratings will be great in the U.S. if several riders are in contention for the GC.

I also have a problem with the accusations in MLB. Half the substances on the 'banned' list you can legally buy at a GNC. In fact, the steroids BALCO produced were technically 'legal' as they didn't match the legal definition of steroids. Second, you can get pretty big strong being perfectly legit. Every player who hits the gym clean now and raises his stats is effectively accused of juicing. Now, I'm not saying Bonds didn't dope, but what he did was legal or against the rules of baseball at the time he did it.

Baseballs numbers are through the roof because of weight training. Steroids is a byproduct. Not every player juices.

In a sport where hall of famers are celebrated for corking the bat, spitballs, and ampetamines I think its hypocritical for them to come down so hard on these guys. Especially when steriods is 10x more rampant and even encouraged in the NFL.

Baseball should just ban the substances and quit pointing to the past. I'm tired of 110 pound sportswriters acting as if they were experts on sports medicine and training.

So Lance could of been cheating this whole time and no one would have known?

If they were cheating it was because they couldn't keep up with lance in the first place.

They tested Lance so often it's a wonder he had enough blood and water in his body left to compete with.

Well if you look at the way he's ridden this year, then look at the records of Tyler Hamilton's doping program with the good Doctor they are almost a mirror. Dominant early season, then complete colapes at the Daulphine`. Kinda makes you wonder.

In a broader answer to your question, I believe that all of the big guns (top 50) are on some sort of PED.

Agreed. One problem I see with this situation is that much of the public will assume that whoever makes the podium is clean. They only busted one doctor and his clientele doesn't necessarily comprise the entire pro peloton. In other words, there are other doctors a racer can visit...so yeah, it makes this a race of maybe some "clean" riders against the ones not yet caught.

A list of new rider jerseys a friend of mine just e-mailed to me:

Red with lightning bolts and devil’s head logos – for the overall leader (regardless of whose blood he’s running on)

White – for the best rider actually using his own blood

No jersey at all – for the best rider actually using his own blood – and who didn’t transfuse his own stored blood from the winter back into his system right before the race

Yellow – best rider who takes nothing stronger than a multi-vitamin

Question Mark Jersey – best rider who can prove the weird blood markers in his samples are the result of being a chimera in the womb

Green and Brown – best rider who can finish the Tour even though he frequently collapse on climbs foaming at the mouth and barfing a la Jesus Manzano

Inverse Polka Dot Jersey – best rider who has never roomed with Richard Virenque or David Millar
I don't care who you are...that's funny right there.

If they were cheating it was because they couldn't keep up with lance in the first place.

They tested Lance so often it's a wonder he had enough blood and water in his body left to compete with.
Do you think they tested Ullrich and Basso less often? Yet they were always "clean" too. :rolleyes:

Ah crap I got hdtv and dvr just to watch the tour this year on my big screen TV and The Jan won't be in it!!

Ah crap I got hdtv and dvr just to watch the tour this year on my big screen TV and The Jan won't be in it!!

Is the tour broadcast in HDTV? On OLN?

Ah crap I got hdtv and dvr just to watch the tour this year on my big screen TV and The Jan won't be in it!!

That sucks..................so, since you won't be needing that tv next month, hook a brotha up!

FWIW, I caught an NPR (Nat. Public Radio) update at 12:00. The broadcaster added to the news of the suspensions that Ivan Basso had resigned from CSC.

That's what they said...

if Basso and Ullrich isn't in the tour this year it's not even worth the watch. This is complete BS, the whole pro sport has gone to hell in a hand basket.

Do you think they tested Ullrich and Basso less often? Yet they were always "clean" too. :rolleyes:Just playing devil's advocate here but do you think they test the blood of a European on the second step as rigorously as they test the blood of an American on the podium?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun30news2


csc: Ivan Basso

If its true I think this will also mean that Simoni won the Giro!!

I've always liked Simoni even though he seemed like a cry-baby at times. I guess when he said Basso was extraterrestrial, he may have been onto something.

Ah crap I got hdtv and dvr just to watch the tour this year on my big screen TV and The Jan won't be in it!!

Imagine how you would feel if your tour-prep doctor faxed your wife a bill for services to your hotel for tens of thousands of dollars. And then you were kicked out of The Tour! You'd really feel like you spent your money foolishly.

They're all adults. They've been around athletes all their lives. They know the risks of doping. Which includes the risk of being outed and banned.

I say wipe em all off the pro circuit, if they weren't doing it they were complacent in someone else doing it. Start all over again, no pro cycling for a few years. Wait for the trickle down effect to the amateur levels as they are more than likely already firmly entrenched in the latest doping technologies.

They tested Lance so often it's a wonder he had enough blood and water in his body left to compete with.
Every rider implicated in this scandal has been tested multiple times, using the same techniques as Launce. Tests are useless, the doctors are always ahead of them - it is AS LIKELY that Armstrong doped as Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Virenque, Pantani, Brouchard, Jalabert, Hinault etc etc etc.

This is the key problem with the Lance fans. They've not been in this sport long enough or deep enough to accept that they are ALL cheating, and that Lance is no different (apart from the fact that he does TV adverts saying he doesn't dope and made millions out of a book that proclaimed a clean lifestyle).

Yea the revolving door is pretty gross. Let's cut em all off.... get a whole new batch of pros, new pro organizations and sponsors that will police their charges. I still think creating a pro cycling town and isolating them while they are under contract isn't such a crazy idea.

Thats what they do with amateur Keirin racers. Cloister em at a remote Keirin school....pound in to them the importance of honour....let em loose to makes skads of cash for themselves and the bettors. Ever hear of a scandal involving Keirin riders? No? Thats because they would have to commit Sapuku if there was ever the slightest whiff of corruption or scandal.

The embarrassment of riches is now simply an embarrassment.

Do you think they tested Ullrich and Basso less often? Yet they were always "clean" too. :rolleyes:

Are you joking?:eek:

I've always liked Simoni even though he seemed like a cry-baby at times.
But he was doping, of course. Like the rest of them.

BTW- Anybody know how to check someones hemocrit levels?

Take a sample of blood in a slender glass test tube. Spin it in a centrifuge so all the red cells sink to the bottom and the clear plasma rises to the top. The red cells should take up less than 50% of the tube. That percentage is the hematocrit. If the cells take up more than 50% of the tube, that is strong evidence of EPO usage. It means the person's blood can carry more oxygen, which helps them output power at a higher and longer level, but it also means that the blood is thick andy syrupy and might clog up the narrow coronary arteries, causing a heart attack.

Are you joking?:eek:

Lance was tested more because he won the Tour seven times, and because everyone in the sport knew he and everyone else at Postal/Discovery was doping.

Every rider implicated in this scandal has been tested multiple times, using the same techniques as Launce. Tests are useless, the doctors are always ahead of them - it is AS LIKELY that Armstrong doped as Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Virenque, Pantani, Brouchard, Jalabert, Hinault etc etc etc.

This is the key problem with the Lance fans. They've not been in this sport long enough or deep enough to accept that they are ALL cheating, and that Lance is no different (apart from the fact that he does TV adverts saying he doesn't dope and made millions out of a book that proclaimed a clean lifestyle).

No matter how cynical I get, I just can never seem to keep up. :(

And kudos for the little condescension kicker, sensei.

I've always liked Simoni even though he seemed like a cry-baby at times.
LOL - charming naivety once more - this is what everyone said after 67 and 98

Wow, some people still believe clean testing is proof of not using PEDs. Feel free to think Lance was clean, but don’t use the overused and bogus argument of he was tested a lot and passed them all (sorta ;) ). Ullrich and Basso are fresh off major wins, you don’t think they just passed a bunch of tests too?

Sigh.

And how do they manage to get around the tests?

I think dopers are like anyone else who is doing something illegal. They are always one step ahead of detection technology...until they get careless or until something like this comes along where a list implicates people...

Wow, some people still believe clean testing is proof of not using PEDs.

If negatives could be proven, where would all the haters go?

Every rider implicated in this scandal has been tested multiple times, using the same techniques as Launce. Tests are useless, the doctors are always ahead of them - it is AS LIKELY that Armstrong doped as Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Virenque, Pantani, Brouchard, Jalabert, Hinault etc etc etc.

This is the key problem with the Lance fans. They've not been in this sport long enough or deep enough to accept that they are ALL cheating, and that Lance is no different (apart from the fact that he does TV adverts saying he doesn't dope and made millions out of a book that proclaimed a clean lifestyle).

How many riders "implicated in this scandal" have been proven to be doping? Any? Serious question, cause I'd just like to know.

EDIT.

I changed my mind.

The whole sport is dirty, and Riis, Basso, Armstrong et al.are just typical.

I'm riding in July, the TDF is pointless, it's just a matter of the dopers caught VS. the dopers not-yet-caught.Since I've been on this forum, there have been those who've complained about the newer forum members who are on the band wagon of Lance's success.

The above post epitomizes the short time bicycle racing fan. Unable or unwilling to make the accounts balance, they take an all or nothing approach to the problem. You have gone from having "What Would Ivan Basso Do" in your signature, parodying the "What would Jesus Do?" catch phrase as though Basso was someone to be revered, to abandoning him because of some media reports and allegations. What a fan.:rolleyes:

Is the whole sport dirty or have you just been fanatical in your approach toward it? Is Paolo Bettini dirty? Is Tom Boonen dirty? Is Phillipe Gilbert dirty? Was Christophe Basson dirty? Was Jonathon Vaughters dirty? Is Nick Nuyens dirty? Do you even know who these people are? These people are all part of the whole sport, but since your fanaticism is limited to the Tour Day France and the rider you wanted to win it, suddenly these other riders no longer exist?

You need to check yourself. The whole sport isn't dirty, even though there are individuals on this forum who are making a concerted effort to convince everyone it is. Those individuals should be denounced. There are many riders with talent and integrity who deserve our praise. This whole affair is still in it's infancy, yet everyone is rushing to judgement. Perhaps if you wait until riders are convicted of something or test positive for something, then you can say with some certainty, "Those riders are dirty."

Till then, enjoy your ride.

If negatives could be proven, where would all the haters go?
It's not about being a hater, it's about being realistic.

I love the sport, I've always known that they are all doping and I don't care. What I do care about is riders making a career and money out of pretending they are clean-living medical miracles.

You need to check yourself. The whole sport isn't dirty
You are right, as a sucessful European amateur told me the other week in France 'just assume 99.9% of them are doping'

This is the key problem with the Lance fans. They've not been in this sport long enough or deep enough to accept that they are ALL cheating, and that Lance is no different (apart from the fact that he does TV adverts saying he doesn't dope and made millions out of a book that proclaimed a clean lifestyle).

+1. Lance was tested very frequently but so were other top riders. Many of whom were actually competing throughout the year rather than selectively like Lance. Tyler was tested in and out of competition and it wasn't until he somehow got someone else's blood did he get caught. David Miller didn't get busted for failing a test yet he was a World Champion. You people don't believe he was tested? He won the rainbow jersey and still tested clean yet admitted he had taken EPO to win it. So you see it is completely plausible that a rider can dope and not test positive.

You need to check yourself. The whole sport isn't dirty, even though there are individuals on this forum who are making a concerted effort to convince everyone it is. Those individuals should be denounced. There are many riders with talent and integrity who deserve our praise. This whole affair is still in it's infancy, yet everyone is rushing to judgement. Perhaps if you wait until riders are convicted of something or test positive for something, then you can say with some certainty, "Those riders are dirty."

Till then, enjoy your ride.

You need to realize that the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny aren't real. One doctor gets busted and 58 of the best riders in the pro peloton are found to be using his services to cheat. So you think this is an isolated case of a few bad apples? You need to check yourself and quit dreaming. Frankly the reason the peloton is so full of dopers is because to many who run the sport have your attitude. "It's only a few who cheat", "The sport is clean but for these few bad actors". BS, maybe now the sport will wake up and the people with the money will start to demand that they clean up their act.

Just like the computer hackers are always ahead of the computer defenders. The dopers are ahead of the dope detectors.

It's not about being a hater, it's about being realistic.

I love the sport, I've always known that they are all doping and I don't care. What I do care about is riders making a career and money out of pretending they are clean-living medical miracles.

So is it realistic to say that because someone tested negative 100% of the time, they are clean, or that they just managed to beat the system 100% of the time.

The "everyone does it" routine just sounds so tired. I wonder how many wannabe, has been never wasses that doped use the "everyone does it" argument as just venting for their own guilty consciences. Many posts seem so sure that everyone does it, but what is the proof? Once again, the fact that a negative can never be proven is the only ally that that argument still has.

I think it's time to give it up, but I can rest assured that you won't. To be sincere for a moment, I feel sad for someone who can't let it go. So much anger! Sad.

Yup, I might be wrong, ole lancey may have been high as a kite, but I'll get over it a lot sooner than those who can't get over the possibility that he never was.

You are right, as a sucessful European amateur told me the other week in France 'just assume 99.9% of them are doping'

Guilty conscience on the part of the person who saaid that. In other words he is, but can't accept being beaten by those who aren't.

How to clean the sport though? I really couldn't give a rat's ass about Lance, he's one guy in a sport dominated by cheating. Besides Lance STILL hasn't been paid his Tour bonuses, THAT'S what he's been fightin' for. Now he may never get the dough.

So is it realistic to say that because someone tested negative 100% of the time, they are clean, or that they just managed to beat the system 100% of the time.
Forget the stupid tests! They don't work! After today surely that hammers that fact home for the final time?

Lance doped because Lance doped. Everyone in the sport knows this. I know the world seems a more special place if magical miracle Lance were real, but he ain't, sorry.

Lance doped because Lance doped. Everyone in the sport knows this. I know the world seems a more special place if magical miracle Lance were real, but he ain't, sorry.


Yikes!! :eek:

Try the decaf....seriously

This report filed June 30, 2006

Internet odds makers quickly reacted to Friday's news that top riders Ivan Basso (CSC), Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) and Francisco Mancebo (Ag2r) have been excluded from the Tour de France by their respective teams after being named as suspects in the ongoing Spanish doping investigation, known as Operación Puerto.

Liège-Bastogne-Liège winner, Alejandro Valverde (Caisse d'Épargne-Illes Balears) and Astaná-Würth's Alexandre Vinokourov emerged as the two favorites, given odds of seven-to-two to wear the yellow jersey into Paris on July 23, while Amercans Levi Leipheimer (Gerolsteiner) and Floyd Landis (Phonak) follow at seven-to-one.

Internet Bookmakers' odds for Tour de France
(As of 5:00 p.m. Friday)

* Alejandro Valverde (ILL) -7/2
* Alexandre Vinokourov (Wur) -7/2
* Levi Leipheimer (Ger) -7/1
* Floyd Landis (Pho) -7/1
* Cadel Evans (Dav) -10/1
* Yaroslav Popovych (Dis) -12/1
* Paolo Savoldelli (Dis) -20/1
* Andreas Kloden (T-M) -20/1
* Michael Rasmussen (Rab) -25/1
* Denis Menchov (Rab) -25/1
* George Hincapie (Dis) -25/1
* Iban Mayo (Eus) -25/1
* Jose Azevedo (Dis) -25/1
* Christophe Moreau (Ag2) -33/1

Guilty conscience on the part of the person who saaid that. In other words he is, but can't accept being beaten by those who aren't.
OR, he knows pros, as many European amateurs do, and he knows that they are doping - because it's an open secret in the sport.

Wow there is some serious carnage in the fallout. AG2R has a serious GC contender now? ha

Try the decaf....seriously#
I suggest you stop taking the 'happy land' pills.

Yikes!! :eek:

Try the decaf....seriously

I can count the times I've agreed with EURO on one hand, and I'm missing most of the fingers on that hand. But I'm sorry to tell you this, he's right. Ask yourself this (and all the others who think this is an isolated case) did you believe Tyler? Because it's now confirmed he doped. He's not only on the list but his program has been made public.

His program's public? Where can i get a copy. I bet I can go up at least at category with a program like his.

They seriously need to cancel the prologue and maybe the first couple stages so they can clear this up. They need some time to do some DNA tests and then suspend. I guess I'm just spoiled by due process.
See, now I, being a bit more cynical, assumed they timed this exactly so there wouldn't be time to 'clear this up' before the prologue, and therefore they could be sure all the suspensions would stick for the Tour even if riders hired high-power attorneys...

cancel the damned thing

how could I possibly resist the urge to be bitter, disenchanted, angry, hateful and cycnical. Sign me up!

Truth is, been where you mind is at (not in cycling, of course, just in general)

Frankly, it didn't work for me like it seems to be working for you. Takes a lot of work and I was always having to ramp it up another notch. Eventually, I made peace with all that:beer:

I'm sorry I stumbled into your world, obviously "inclusiveness" on this thread ends when someone doesn't agree with the dominant paradigm. I have been successfully run off the thread.

Good job. Your work is done here.

PS: and who has tested positive in the wake of this recent scandal? I am still waiting to hear that just for my own edification.