Astana-Würth leaves the Tour

Dutch television's sports anchorman Mart Smeets has just reported that the Astana-Würth team has left the Tour de France. The team had five of its Tour riders officially named in the Operacion Puerto affair (Sergio Paulinho, Isidro Nozal, Allan Davis, Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki), as well as several others (Michele Scarponi, Marcos Serrano, David Etxebarria, Angel Vicioso, Unai Osa, Jörg Jaksche), and of course ex-team manager Manolo Saiz. The team therefore wouldn't have had enough riders to start.

In an official statement, Active Bay, the team's management company, confirmed the news. "In view of the content of the dossier sent to Spanish authorities, Active Bay has decided, in accordance with the Ethical Code signed between the UCI ProTour's teams, to withdraw from the Tour de France those riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier.

"This decision is adopted without prejudice of the respect to the right to the presumption of innocence of these riders and of that Active Bay will exercise the actions for the defence of its rights and those of its workers. This measure does not concern the team's riders of the Tour de France that are not included in the dossier: Alexander Vinokourov, Andrey Kashechkin, Carlos Barredo and Luis León Sanchez. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of the riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier implies that the Tour of France team will not have the minimum number of riders demanded by the UCI rules, which means the team will not be able to take the start tomorrow morning in the Tour de France."

The organisers of the Tour, ASO, were already determined to refuse to allow Astana-Würth to start, despite a ruling from the Court of Arbitration for Sport that said it could.


Poor Vino, he does his part and doesn't get caught yet still can't ride!

how could I possibly resist the urge to be bitter, disenchanted, angry, hateful and cycnical. Sign me up!

Truth is, been where you mind is at (not in cycling, of course, just in general)

Frankly, it didn't work for me like it seems to be working for you. Takes a lot of work and I was always having to ramp it up another notch. Eventually, I made peace with all that:beer:

I'm sorry I stumbled into your world, obviously "inclusiveness" on this thread ends when someone doesn't agree with the dominant paradigm. I have been successfully run off the thread.

Good job. Your work is done here.

PS: and who has tested positive in the wake of this recent scandal? I am still waiting to hear that just for my own edification.


:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

I've been reading this stuff all day now, and there's a point that was kind of left by the wayside a little bit ago:

Someone asked earlier about the rider's presumption of guilt in this case; that all it takes is an implication and you can be banned from the TdF. This is ostensibly done in the name of taking a hard stance against doping. That is both the Tour coordinators' and the individual team's choice. The philosophy hinges on the idea that it is better to err on the side punishing a not-guilty party by mistake than it is to let a cheater race because there's not enough evidence to support an allegation. I have no truck with this decision other than it opens the whole process up to sabotage. Seriously, if all someone has to do is muster up enough 'evidence' at a key moment in time to get key people out of the loop, then that makes the whole process that much more simple. It's the professional cycling version of the Salem Witch trials (maybe I missed it, but I'm surprised no one has referenced that yet)

Please don't confuse my questioning of this point as questioning of whether or not these people were rightly kicked out. I do not know what the decisions were based on; articles up to this point vary from "their names were simply on the list" to "there was substantial evidence supporting the allegations". If the former is true, then perhaps they need to be a little more restrictive in what they use as the threshold for kicking people out. If it's the latter, then it seems to me like the system is working.

I did find interesting the ESPN piece on this:
T-Mobile received information implicating Ullrich, Sevilla and Pevenage from Tour organizers, including documents from the Spanish government, team spokesman Luuc Eisenga said.

"The only thing I can tell you is that the information is clear enough and didn't leave any doubt," he said.

Another T-Mobile spokesman, Stefan Wagner, told Germany's n-tv television that the team was acting on information indicating "that there was contact between the two riders and Rudi Pevenage and the Spanish doctor ... who is at the center of this doping story."

Asked whether T-Mobile would consider cutting ties with Ullrich completely, he replied "certainly ... we are now demanding evidence of his innocence."

"If this evidence can be provided, then we have a completely new situation," he said. "If it cannot be provided, nothing will change about this situation."



Even though, as far as I have read, none of this evidence has been made public, we can speculate that it would have to be pretty solid. These guys, at least T-Mobile, are essentially leaving their riders to the lions. It's rare when a team doesn't advocate for their players, when there's any chance of innocence... Unless of course, they knew about the doping and now they're hoping to cleanse themselves by burning sinners (or those which were caught anyhow).

Take a sample of blood in a slender glass test tube. Spin it in a centrifuge so all the red cells sink to the bottom and the clear plasma rises to the top. The red cells should take up less than 50% of the tube. That percentage is the hematocrit. If the cells take up more than 50% of the tube, that is strong evidence of EPO usage. It means the person's blood can carry more oxygen, which helps them output power at a higher and longer level, but it also means that the blood is thick andy syrupy and might clog up the narrow coronary arteries, causing a heart attack.
Best explanation I ever heard. Thanks.

Which includes the risk of being outed and banned.

Yup. I think they should be kicked out. But they knowingly add something dangerous to their body; arguing that 'they might die, and need to be protected from themselves' is ludicrous, in my opinion.

Astana-Würth leaves the Tour

Dutch television's sports anchorman Mart Smeets has just reported that the Astana-Würth team has left the Tour de France. The team had five of its Tour riders officially named in the Operacion Puerto affair (Sergio Paulinho, Isidro Nozal, Allan Davis, Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki), as well as several others (Michele Scarponi, Marcos Serrano, David Etxebarria, Angel Vicioso, Unai Osa, Jörg Jaksche), and of course ex-team manager Manolo Saiz. The team therefore wouldn't have had enough riders to start.

In an official statement, Active Bay, the team's management company, confirmed the news. "In view of the content of the dossier sent to Spanish authorities, Active Bay has decided, in accordance with the Ethical Code signed between the UCI ProTour's teams, to withdraw from the Tour de France those riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier.

"This decision is adopted without prejudice of the respect to the right to the presumption of innocence of these riders and of that Active Bay will exercise the actions for the defence of its rights and those of its workers. This measure does not concern the team's riders of the Tour de France that are not included in the dossier: Alexander Vinokourov, Andrey Kashechkin, Carlos Barredo and Luis León Sanchez. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of the riders that appear in the above-mentioned dossier implies that the Tour of France team will not have the minimum number of riders demanded by the UCI rules, which means the team will not be able to take the start tomorrow morning in the Tour de France."

The organisers of the Tour, ASO, were already determined to refuse to allow Astana-Würth to start, despite a ruling from the Court of Arbitration for Sport that said it could.


Poor Vino, he does his part and doesn't get caught yet still can't ride!

Yea, he got screwed... we can argue about wether or not this was just his Kharma, but this certainly sucks for him... Maybe next year, he'll find another team to lead. Any chance that he'll be 'drafted' by one of the other teams... considering that they start tomorrow?

No way to ever clean up any competition - see game theory's "Prisoner's Dilemma":

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html

If all those guys doped...there is no way armstrong didn't.

Armstrong is NOT a doper until proven so. Period. Anyone who thinks differently obviously doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty". And there simply is no proof. Anecdotal evidence is BS.

Who cares as long as I'm entertained. Ride for me monkeys! Ride!
LOL!

Hopefully one of these riders is going to say "Screw this, I'm not taking the fall by myself, I'm taking everyone down with me."
That's what I'm waiting for too. Think Simeoni but on a much larger scale.

No way to ever clean up any competition - see game theory's "Prisoner's Dilemma":

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html

Man, I hated econ so I didn't pay much attention. But from what I remember, you are correct about that.

Armstrong made a point of vigorously defending the whole sport of cycling, not just himself. He was either way out of the loop (unlikely) or was lying.

I would imagine the teams were not only provided with text documentation of rider relationship with Fuentes but also video or cd's of their riders entering this guys office. I would bet most are on tape with time and date visible.

Let's get something straight. Obviously, Lance has never taken a performance enhancing drug. He has always been 100% clean. How do I know? Because he's my hero!

P.S. Jose Canseco is my second hero. I would also like to be a member of the 40-40 club.

How to clean the sport though? I really couldn't give a rat's ass about Lance, he's one guy in a sport dominated by cheating. Besides Lance STILL hasn't been paid his Tour bonuses, THAT'S what he's been fightin' for. Now he may never get the dough.

This is where I fall in. Out of the hundreds of UCI pros there are maybe 10 that have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting on the podium. Those ten or so guys are in a league of their own within the pro peleton but when fighting amongst themselves they're in a position where 1-3% can mean the difference between 1st and 5th.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.

Who cares as long as I'm entertained. Ride for me monkeys! Ride!Spoken like a fan and not a competitive cyclist.:rolleyes:

This is where I fall in. Out of the hundreds of UCI pros there are maybe 10 that have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting on the podium. Those ten or so guys are in a league of their own within the pro peleton but when fighting amongst themselves they're in a position where 1-3% can mean the difference between 1st and 5th.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.

A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.

Wow there is some serious carnage in the fallout. AG2R has a serious GC contender now? ha

Its all a French conspiracy to get Moreau and Voekler on the podium.

George Bush is my Hero - what's he been smokin' - Richard Nixon?

How to clean the sport though? I really couldn't give a rat's ass about Lance, he's one guy in a sport dominated by cheating. Besides Lance STILL hasn't been paid his Tour bonuses, THAT'S what he's been fightin' for. Now he may never get the dough.


He did get paid. He won the lawsuit against the insurance company, SCA and got an additional 2.5 million dollars. The total payout was $7.5 million.

Its all a French conspiracy to get Moreau and Voekler on the podium.

Funny but I think Moreau seriously has a really good chance right now. As for Voekler, after watching him in 2004, I think it would be great to see that kid win.

Zabriskie. He is being a psycho robot, remember? And robots don't have hematocrit to f with.

Just like the computer hackers are always ahead of the computer defenders. The dopers are ahead of the dope detectors.

Think bigger, testing has time on its side, and little viles of evidence they can test forever! Dopers can be ahead but testing will catch up.

A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.

+1

I still plan to enjoy watching the tour, and I really don't think I'll notice if it's 1 MPH slower.

Think bigger, testing has time on its side, and little viles of evidence they can test forever! Dopers can be ahead but testing will catch up.

The problem is EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood forever, but its effects stick around, that's why its still can be used with little (relative to other PED's) risk. David Millar should sell his story of how he did it to the press so he can buy back his apt. in Biarritz.

Think bigger, testing has time on its side, and little viles of evidence they can test forever! Dopers can be ahead but testing will catch up.

Individual dopers will get caught eventually just like hackers but new ones with different methods will rise up and so on and so forth. Doping will not just eventually end, it will continue with new methods and drugs we can't even comprehend right now.

He did get paid. He won the lawsuit against the insurance company, SCA and got an additional 2.5 million dollars. The total payout was $7.5 million.the extra $2.5M was tacked on for punitive damages.

The problem is EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood forever, but its effects stick around, that's why its still can be used with little (relative to other PED's) risk. David Millar should sell his story of how he did it to the press so he can buy back his apt. in Biarritz.
That's not what he meant. He meant that the race organizers can save samples (freeze them or what have you) for testing later, when testing technology has caught up with the drugs that were used at the time.

The problem is EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood forever, but its effects stick around, that's why its still can be used with little (relative to other PED's) risk. David Millar should sell his story of how he did it to the press so he can buy back his apt. in Biarritz.
wait:

EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood if you leave it in your body and keep filtering that blood thourgh your kidneys?
OR
EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in your blood if you have your blood drawn and frozen in litle vials?

If only the first scenario is true, then -- in theory -- they have blood stored from these guys from previous races. As medical technology improves it will be easier and easier to go back and tell who was doping.

Doesn't resolve tomorrow's issue but it could make for some interesting research.

how could I possibly resist the urge to be bitter, disenchanted, angry, hateful and cycnical. Sign me up!
I'm none of those but cynical. I'll watch the TdF with the same pleasure this year as in '86. I'm racing tommorow and I'll love every minute of it. I don't care if I get beat by somone who dopes, because I love to race.

I do however (based on a lot of time spent in the company of serious racers) accept that the vast majority of pro cyclists dope. Doesn't bother me.

DOES bother me that little 12 year old girls with cancer in the US look up to Lance as an example of commitment and positivity and clean living overcoming adversity when he's actually a ruthless systematic lifetime doper who probably brought the cancer on himself. Pity for those girls is not hatred for anyone else.

It's so great that the pure hearted Americans don't dope. ;)

its great (for US fans) that they don't have a spanish doctor helping them dope.

And yet Lance does this for 7 years and never comes up positive. Hmmmm I wonder, maybe because he is clean and just works harder than everyone else.

I'm not indicting LA here at all, but nobody "came up positive" in a test. Their doping supplies were just found lying around in a raid, all prepped and ready to go for each rider, along with their schedules.

DrPete

This is where I fall in. Out of the hundreds of UCI pros there are maybe 10 that have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting on the podium. Those ten or so guys are in a league of their own within the pro peleton but when fighting amongst themselves they're in a position where 1-3% can mean the difference between 1st and 5th.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.

Interesting idea..... makes you wonder why all the doping then? For that WEE LITTLE bit of advantage you risk your career, your life? Jan...finished, Basso...finished how many more careers were destroyed this week? I suppose I'm just not seeing the reason for such possible wide spread cheating. I LOVE cycling and it's racing, the kids watch Tour with me and this is going to be hard to explain. A sad day indeed.

wait:

EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood if you leave it in your body and keep filtering that blood thourgh your kidneys?
OR
EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in your blood if you have your blood drawn and frozen in litle vials?

If only the first scenario is true, then -- in theory -- they have blood stored from these guys from previous races. As medical technology improves it will be easier and easier to go back and tell who was doping.

Doesn't resolve tomorrow's issue but it could make for some interesting research.

The research is already there. The testing for doping as it stands right now examines the red blood cells to determine their relative ages, etc. So if you're producing immature red blood cells at a rate higher than normal, that's evidence of EPO use. Problem is that the testing is about as hard as it sounds, especially with micro-dosing, etc.

DrPete

A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.

I think he's a genetic SUPER freak who beat other genetic freaks and all parties were on something. I don't really care, I guess. I used to be a competitive bodybuilder and I've taken drugs. It was a long time before posessing them was a felony like it is now. It also wasn't against the sport's rules so it wasn't considered cheating per se.
At the same time I have a friend that competed in the Mr. Olympia contest and he's never taken a drug in his life, of that I am 101% sure. He ended up 14th so he wasn't a massive guy in that world.
I believe it is possible to contend for the Tour cleanly, just unlikely.

Go back to any one of the countless times Lance has claimed his innocence based on the laughable excuse that he has been tested over and over and never tested positive. How can anyone, whether he is innocent or not, with the inside knowledge that Lance must have, say that with a straight face? Now that dozens who also never tested positive are implicated by just one Spanish doctor, shows how irrelevant "testing positive" is to the question of whether Lance ever doped. He should have known better. He did know better. The only reason he said it was because he knew most "outsiders" did not realize how absurd of an excuse it is. Proof? Watch him never use that one again... Why? It's just as much of a joke as it always was, and he knows it, and always knew it. But now he knows HIS U.S. FANS know it's a joke, so he can't use it anymore.

Meanwhile Tyler's pathetic denial sits on his website...

Go David "I have the balls to admit I f***ed up" Millar!

I believe it is possible to contend for the Tour cleanly
What is the basis for believing this?

wait:

EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood if you leave it in your body and keep filtering that blood thourgh your kidneys?
OR
EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in your blood if you have your blood drawn and frozen in litle vials?

If only the first scenario is true, then -- in theory -- they have blood stored from these guys from previous races. As medical technology improves it will be easier and easier to go back and tell who was doping.

Doesn't resolve tomorrow's issue but it could make for some interesting research.

Both, from what I understand. There was a great article on Velonews months back when Armstrong's (alledgedly anyway) '99 samples were retested. They interviewed the chief tester (someone help me out) at the WADA lab in Montreal, she expressed doubt that they could have found EPO in the samples, given that it degrades to untraceable over a short period of time. But I've also read (not in a scientific journal) that EPO is only detectable in your bloodstream to a maximum of 12 hours after you take it and that's if you're chronically taking big doses, not taking smaller doses.

However, none of this means they won't come up with ways to test for the evidence of EPO, going back to what DrPete is saying regarding younger red blood cells.

A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.

Maybe try thinking about it this way: Basso in this years Giro-a textbook example of a perfectly orchestrated doping regimen, then ask yourself: who did he remind you of?

Just something to consider:rolleyes:

I disagree, and I'm really bummed too.
Doing it before the world's premier event does suck - but it makes a point, and I like that (from what I've read) the Teams are taking responsibility for their riders. Putting CSC and T-Mobile on the spot will surely change the politics between teams. How much longer can the code of silence go on, when $$$ starts falling away from teams that don't come clean.


I genuinely don't understand why this could not have been announced 1 week ago or more. It would give time to decide replacements for teams, and substantiate claims.

Does the tour think that the frantic last minute chaos makes for good publicity for the race?, or did this take everyone by surprise?

Could someone fill us in on the history of this investigation... how long ago it was known that there would be a significant number of riders implicated?

Go David "I have the balls to admit I f***ed up" Millar!

+ freakin 1

Elvis for President. "Wise men say only fools rush in"

Playing devils advocate for a second... if the testing isn't up to scratch then bad luck, people always find ways around the rules in any sport, what I wanna know is why performance enhancing drugs are banned? is it out of concern for the riders health? fairness in the sport? whats the deal? if they were allowed then it'd be a level playing field, it's the whole nature of professional sports that leads people to dope, you wanna protect your huge salary, its the organisers who inevitably lead them to the drugs as the sport becomes big business.

+ freakin 1

yeah, but only after he tried to lie about it first.

yeah, but only after he tried to lie about it first.

true. But when viewed in the context of other cheaters, Ben Johnson, Hamilton, Bonds, Heras, etc.. Its refreshing when someone finally, fesses up.

ok, the rosters are up on the TDF website. Why is T Mobile starting with 7, and CSC with 8. Is there some rule that after you put your roster in, you can't replace a rider, even before the race starts? Obviously both T Mobile and CS have riders that they could get to the prologue in time. I'm assuming there is some cutoff beyond which you can't substitute.

Playing devils advocate for a second... if the testing isn't up to scratch then bad luck, people always find ways around the rules in any sport, what I wanna know is why performance enhancing drugs are banned? is it out of concern for the riders health? fairness in the sport? whats the deal? if they were allowed then it'd be a level playing field, it's the whole nature of professional sports that leads people to dope, you wanna protect your huge salary, its the organisers who inevitably lead them to the drugs as the sport becomes big business.

Because people do die from overzealous blood doping. And if a line isn't drawn someplace, the entire race becomes an engineering contest instead of human sport. We've drawn those lines with equipment, and they're easy to enforce, but the biological half is harder. With genetic doping on the horizon it only gets harder yet, and we're going to have to give up on simple testing at some point, which means more of this kind of old fashioned sting operation. If we can't prove the punch is spiked anymore, we have to catch the guy tipping in the flask.

I think control is possible. The prospect of getting caught red handed just has to be more expensive than the prospect of losing, and huge ugly embarassing spectacles like this one, painfull as they are, are the best way of ratcheting up that expense.

ok, the rosters are up on the TDF website. Why is T Mobile starting with 7, and CSC with 8. Is there some rule that after you put your roster in, you can't replace a rider, even before the race starts? Obviously both T Mobile and CS have riders that they could get to the prologue in time. I'm assuming there is some cutoff beyond which you can't substitute.

Well, they said no substitutes for those implicated. So T-Mobile lost two riders (down to 7) and CSC lost one rider (down to 8). Astana-Wurth is completely out because they had FIVE riders implicated, depleting their Tour roster to just 4 riders. You have to start with at least 6 riders, so Astana-Wurth is going home.

CSC should offer Vinikourov a job, since the rest of his team is out (and since he doesn't seem implicated - yet) and maybe he'd have a shot at GC.

I don't believe this is possible. No team can pick up outside riders to replace team members who have been removed from the tour:

Bruyneel on exclusions (and replacements) (http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/news/articles/10184.0.html)

Probably just more spin, but worth a read if you respect Julich. Julic didn't need to stand behind Basso at this point, especially when you consider that T-Mobile threw their guys under the bus. Then again he doesn't say that Basso says I didn't dope, just that he wasn't involved in Spain. Basso is implicated because his dogs name appears on some of the schedules.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2505640